Releasing imprints

[wingnut]

As we are experiencing a down cycle in CT's in my area I am thinking about flying a smaller bird-catching hawk or falcon and wait another year to replace my last gos. I would like to imprint a tiercel prairie or maybe a coop but I would also like to be able to release it later on. I have always assumed that one should not imprint a hawk if you plan to release it and I have lived by that assumption in all my choices of birds. I recall a thread not too long ago where this topic was kicked around a little. I don't remember what the original thread was about so I couldn't find it. What information do any of you have about this? Thanks

[Dirthawking]

I would assume that it would depend on the type of imprinting done.

[wingnut]

I would assume that it would depend on the type of imprinting done.

True. I would assume that the earlier the eyas is taken the harder (if I may use that term) the imprint. It is also my understanding that at some point imprinting would not take place. As in branchers etc. I really enjoy the experience of raising the eyas and also the tame hack. I would like to do both, rear the eyas and tame hack the bird but still have the option of releasing it.

[jfseaman]

As we are experiencing a down cycle in CT's in my area I am thinking about flying a smaller bird-catching hawk or falcon and wait another year to replace my last gos. I would like to imprint a tiercel prairie or maybe a coop but I would also like to be able to release it later on. I have always assumed that one should not imprint a hawk if you plan to release it and I have lived by that assumption in all my choices of birds. I recall a thread not too long ago where this topic was kicked around a little. I don't remember what the original thread was about so I couldn't find it. What information do any of you have about this? Thanks
My personal belief is that if the imprinting is done 'properly' it would be improper to release the imprint.

If it got hungry it would seek a human
It would never participate in the wild gene pool
It may not have enough fear to avoid predation

Before contemplating release of a bird, look at the future of the birds welfare.

Plus, why waste it. After a successful falconry career and imprint can find useful life as a contributor to the captive bred gene pool.

[Dirthawking]

Ikay.....I'll bite. Playing devils advocate here.



My personal belief is that if the imprinting is done 'properly' it would be improper to release the imprint.

Define "properly". Your definition might differ from mine or from somebody else's. Depends on what you want out of the bird.


If it got hungry it would seek a human

Again, depends on how it was imprinted would it not?


It would never participate in the wild gene pool

This might be a good thing. Again, depends on the bird. Besides, I know of no LONG term studies on imprints breeding.


It may not have enough fear to avoid predation

From what? Other birds? Again, depends on the imprint process.



Before contemplating release of a bird, look at the future of the birds welfare.

Agreed. But just because it is imprinted, does not mean anything. I look at this with passage birds too.



Plus, why waste it. After a successful falconry career and imprint can find useful life as a contributor to the captive bred gene pool.

It might not be a good candidate for a breeding program. Again, to many if's to say for sure. I have seen captive breed birds that would make terrible breeders.

[KidK]

Doug,

I put in the topic of this thread "Releasing Imprints" into the search here and got this.. I think this is the thread you were looking for..

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=3694&highlight=Releasing+imprints

It was in the imprint section titled "Return to the Wild".

Hope this helps.

[jfseaman]

Ikay.....I'll bite. Playing devils advocate here.

Define "properly". Your definition might differ from mine or from somebody else's. Depends on what you want out of the bird.

"Properly" would be to remove fear of humans and things around humans but of course even that can vary by degrees and still be a good bird.


Again, depends on how it was imprinted would it not?

Of course


This might be a good thing. Again, depends on the bird. Besides, I know of no LONG term studies on imprints breeding.

Yeah


From what? Other birds? Again, depends on the imprint process.

Yup


Agreed. But just because it is imprinted, does not mean anything. I look at this with passage birds too.

Yup


It might not be a good candidate for a breeding program. Again, to many if's to say for sure. I have seen captive breed birds that would make terrible breeders.
Yup

[Dirthawking]

Jeez Fred. Just trying to have a discussion here. Yup. toungeout

[wingnut]

Doug,

I put in the topic of this thread "Releasing Imprints" into the search here and got this.. I think this is the thread you were looking for..

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=3694&highlight=Releasing+imprints

It was in the imprint section titled "Return to the Wild".

Hope this helps.

Thanks Kory. It would seem that there is no definitive information on this subject. In other words, sometimes it works out and other times it doesn't. I can see where a rehabber would be motivated to release an imprint because that is after all what they do and there is only so much room for educational birds. As a falconer I would want to do what is most likely to be in the birds best interest and imprinting the bird may not be in their best interest if I intend to release it.

As I recall though the thread I was thinking of was dealing with an imprint kestrel that the falconer felt compelled to keep because it couldn't be released but some on the forum were of the belief that this was not true.

[KidK]

As I recall though the thread I was thinking of was dealing with an imprint kestrel that the falconer felt compelled to keep because it couldn't be released but some on the forum were of the belief that this was not true.

Found that one too..

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=10344&highlight=Releasing+imprints

:D

[Meagan]

Just my .02 so take it for what its worth. I have my first imprint kestrel, which was actually not raised by myself until she was well into her 3rd week at least. She was raised by an older couple who found her and did not realize it was illegal. After getting her onto my permit everything changed. However, I would never consider releasing her. She's too vocal, she begs way too much and even after stopping all food association with her she still begs and screams, even when she is now at her fat weight.

I have never truly believed in releasing an imprint. Then again I have only been in this sport going on 4 years now, but I've never believed in the release of imprints. I've never done it, and I'm wanting to do a tame hack at some point in time. But not until I've got enough land and space to do it properly. I think with the right advice and direction it could be done, McDermott does it with his bird. Who knows, good luck with it...

[Joby]

I've heard that imprinted accipiters have a better chance of being returned to the wild than falcons or buteos. In fact, I'm pretty certain that imprinted buteos CAN'T be returned to the wild.

[Dirthawking]

In fact, I'm pretty certain that imprinted buteos CAN'T be returned to the wild.

How so/why?

[Todd Brown]

I just got my eyas RT back after 4 months of him riding the air waves.

He's imprinted.( possibly double imprint. he fell out of the nest when half feathered out)

I't doesent appear that he got in "much" trouble while he was gone. He was seen once looking over some chickens but wild RT's will do this. The draw back here I think is he may not be affraid enough to fly away when the chicken farmer comes out looking to bag the chicken hawk with a shotgun.

He came in an ounce over his fly weight.

[jfseaman]

I just got my eyas RT back after 4 months of him riding the air waves.

He's imprinted.( possibly double imprint. he fell out of the nest when half feathered out)

I't doesent appear that he got in "much" trouble while he was gone. He was seen once looking over some chickens but wild RT's will do this. The draw back here I think is he may not be affraid enough to fly away when the chicken farmer comes out looking to bag the chicken hawk with a shotgun.

He came in an ounce over his fly weight.
And that's the rub to releasing imprints. Yours was 'properly' imprinted. That lack of fear will get them killed, of course, life in the wild will get them killed so what's the difference?

With anything other than an accipiter or kestrel, there is also the potential problem of the hawk or falcon becoming a danger to humans or the 'pets' of humans. A falcon with no fear of humans, showing up on someones deck trying to kill the parakeet in the cage, of course wild birds do this so what's the difference?

Well, so what's the difference?

Umm, I could use a tiercel prairie voluntary donor.crazyy

[Jack]

I don't think anyone really knows that much about imprinting or what happens when you release one. You hear about different kinds of imprinting, but I have to ask, what is the real difference? Imprinting is imprinting.
In reality, raptors have no idea what they are. It never enters into their thinking I would expect. They just go with what they find familiar to them. Imprinting will not eleminate fear either. The reason a very young hawk shows less fear is that he can not focus his eyes yet and so can't really see you. Once that changes it is instantly fearful of what it does not know. You can hatch the egg yourself and it will still start showing fear once it can see.
I once had a female goshawk that was take as a brancher that could actually fly a little. She imprinted and she laid eggs for me. So this makes me think that no one really knows that much about imprinting.

[cobus]

Norm says 50% get killed on their first year. 50% left. An imprint will take up s pace and food not giving anything back. So reliece them and what do u have. One more mouth to feed and what does he or she give back. Nada. So releasing one in my book is NO.uyu

[goshawkr]

I don't think anyone really knows that much about imprinting or what happens when you release one. You hear about different kinds of imprinting, but I have to ask, what is the real difference? Imprinting is imprinting.
In reality, raptors have no idea what they are. It never enters into their thinking I would expect. They just go with what they find familiar to them. Imprinting will not eleminate fear either. The reason a very young hawk shows less fear is that he can not focus his eyes yet and so can't really see you. Once that changes it is instantly fearful of what it does not know. You can hatch the egg yourself and it will still start showing fear once it can see.
I once had a female goshawk that was take as a brancher that could actually fly a little. She imprinted and she laid eggs for me. So this makes me think that no one really knows that much about imprinting.

Jack,

You have said a lot of dumb ass things.

You have said a lot of brilliant things (somehow people seem to prefer to point out the dumb ass things you say instead).

I think this statement of yours is one of the brilliantest things you have said.

Imprinting in raptors does NOT work the way it is described. So far, the closest anyone has come to really getting it wrtten out is Nick Fox in "Understanding the Bird of Prey".

Its not a one way process. Hawks that are imprinted on their parents will "switch" and display imprint behaviors to their falconer. Hawks that are imprinted on people will "switch" and interact recognize that other raptors are their own kind. Both of these have been documented extensively.

Releasing an imprint to the wild is jsut fine - depending.

Dont release an ill mannered agressive imprint that doesnt know how to fend for itself anywhere near people (and keep in mind they can travel a long distance easily).

A well behaved, well hunting, fit imprint released out in the boonies will do just fine.

It may breed, it may not. So what. ~90% of adult raptors in the wild are not breeding, and a sizeable percentage of those never do breed. Breeding adults are the elite of the elite. As a side topic, thats why a limited take of haggard birds is 100% viable...but thats a personal crusade of mine that belongs on another thread...........

Even if they are not candidates for release, imprinted birds can always be placed in a zoo or with another falconer. They are not a life sentace.

[PHILADELPHIA CITY HAWKER]

Once your done with the imprint, farm the bird out to a breeder, probably will live longer that just being released into the wild.

Jeff

[goshawkr]

Norm says 50% get killed on their first year. 50% left. An imprint will take up s pace and food not giving anything back. So reliece them and what do u have. One more mouth to feed and what does he or she give back. Nada. So releasing one in my book is NO.uyu

Cobus,

Thats an overly simplistic view of raptor population dynamics.

There really is a mathmatical "carrying capacity" where there is no more room (or food) to feed raptors, but there are no raptor populations that have reached this limit.

The real limiting factor on their population levels is breeding territories and breeding structures. When these get opened up (either through creation or through being vacated by losses), they are rapidly colonized.

Most adult raptors you see are non-breeders, just waiting for a chance to hedge their way into a spot occupied by the breeders. An adult bird that dosnt even want in on the reproduction game is a complete non-issue.

Also, as raptors age, they start to hear their biological clock ticking out, and grow more anxious to reporoduce. They will start to be less choosey about who they call a mate (which is why passage birds kept for several years may start courting their falconer even though they are not imprinted on people) and they start to be more agressive about trying to hedge out the competition for a breeding territory. This is probably why wild raptors seem to burn out at ~10 years old. They are expending too much energy fending off the competition from their breeding territories or they are fighting too hard to aquire one and simply run out of metabolical steam.

[jfseaman]

I don't think anyone really knows that much about imprinting or what happens when you release one. You hear about different kinds of imprinting, but I have to ask, what is the real difference? Imprinting is imprinting.
In reality, raptors have no idea what they are. It never enters into their thinking I would expect. They just go with what they find familiar to them. Imprinting will not eleminate fear either. The reason a very young hawk shows less fear is that he can not focus his eyes yet and so can't really see you. Once that changes it is instantly fearful of what it does not know. You can hatch the egg yourself and it will still start showing fear once it can see.
I once had a female goshawk that was take as a brancher that could actually fly a little. She imprinted and she laid eggs for me. So this makes me think that no one really knows that much about imprinting.
I hate it when he does that.haill Jack mostly has it right and that just messes with my brain.crazyy

[goshawks00]

I hate it when he does that.haill Jack mostly has it right and that just messes with my brain.crazyy

Believe what you may , there are enough records of imprints that are lost, that end up breeding with the wild population to make an assumption that they do revert back to the wild given enough time.... Yea I know we hear about 'imprints attacking hiumans, but have you ever considered how many are released back to the wild vs. reports of attacks? It really isn't cut and dried...

[Montucky]

are we really having this conversation.

obviously "imprinting" is on a continuum as most birds are pulled after a certain number of days and probably have some latent recognition of their species...its not a black or white thing and never was in falconry....but clearly imprinting to humans still changes them irreversably enough that it would be unwise to release an imprinted RT or other raptor capable of hurting someone or someone's pet...or resulting in death due to too much trust in humans. But for the same reasons I believe many passage birds cannot be released cold but need some time to gain weight and become withdrawn from their handler.

releasing smaller imprinted birds may be less dangerous but its more of a convenience for the falconer and most likely not going to benefit the bird's wellbeing - in a similar way that releasing a chamber raised bird probably will lead to a dead bird. Imprinting is more than just about reproduction, there are also formative lessons never learned around the fledging time in the wild that probably cant be learned latter just like with chamber birds. Anyway, if released, it seems like a lonely existence if the bird is trully imprinted.

Breeding or not breeding isnt necessarily the test for imprinted "status" or not. clearly the willingness to breed ( like build a nest in a mews and stand for copulation with human stimulation) has been done plenty of times by pure passage birds (prairies and goshawks to name a couple)...so I think a lot of that has to do with lots and lots of handling, a calm bird, and probably a bird pre-disposed to be in a breeding overdrive at adulthood. Either way there may be lots we dont understand, but i wouldnt release an imprint or chamber-raised bird unless it was not a danger to anyone, was a proven hunter, and I knew it understood how, where, when to roost at night - because I obvserved it let say when the bird spent the night out.

[sevristh]

Anyway, if released, it seems like a lonely existence if the bird is trully imprinted.

In my opinion this is purely anthropomorphizing and should not weigh into the discussion at all.

[sevristh]

And, if you WERE going to use that as an excuse to be against releasing imprints, then you must also be against those falconers that have kept their wild trapped RT's for 20+ years, for those birds are surely "lonely" for their own kind as well... crazyy

[Montucky]

In my opinion this is purely anthropomorphizing and should not weigh into the discussion at all.

funny...yes right because falconry is a purely scientific pursuit and is not at all ruled by our emmotions.

not that we all have to agree...i just think it is a reasonable statement to suggest that imprints are more bonded to their handler than non-imprints. Passage birds are also bonded to their handler after many many years of hawking. Released imprints are not having a relationship with anyone...i believe many imprints want to "go home" at the end of the day. Being kicked out on the curb kind of sucks...

[Dirthawking]

Anyway, if released, it seems like a lonely existence if the bird is trully imprinted.




Funny way to describe a "solitary" preditor.....passage, imprinted, or chamber.

[goshawks00]

In my opinion this is purely anthropomorphizing and should not weigh into the discussion at all.

Aww Bill you are so mean and uncaring....so cold and cruel.

[sevristh]

Aww Bill you are so mean and uncaring....so cold and cruel.

What'd you say Jack? toungeout


Sorry, I figured calling you Jack would make us even, haha! ;)

[sevristh]

funny...yes right because falconry is a purely scientific pursuit and is not at all ruled by our emotions.

But you weren't talking about falconry, or our feelings, you were trying to impress them upon a solitary predator with purely primal instincts and urges.

[Montucky]

pair bonds are real dude

[Montucky]

But you weren't talking about falconry, or our feelings, you were trying to impress them upon a solitary predator with purely primal instincts and urges.

i think you are selling raptors short. they are not solitary as a rule, many preserve their pair bond throughout the year...and their behavior is not "purely primal instincts and urges" clearly they have higher funtions proven by teh fact they can be trained and can form productive hunting partnerships with them. they just have their own set of behaviors that are complex in their own right. I have seen very strong bonds between the falconer and bird...nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Imprints have been manipulated to literally bond with humans, or one human in particular. Ignoring that fact just seems a little heartless to me. Maybe I am just turning into a softy;)

[sevristh]

i think you are selling raptors short. they are not solitary as a rule, many preserve their pair bond throughout the year...and their behavior is not "purely primal instincts and urges" clearly they have higher funtions proven by teh fact they can be trained and can form productive hunting partnerships with them.

And how well do those partnerships work for you without food or producing slips? You can romanticize it if you want, but it's an example of an opportunistic predator taking advantage of a good thing.


Ignoring that fact just seems a little heartless to me. Maybe I am just turning into a softy;)

And that is why it's called anthropomorphizing. You are trying to overlay your feelings onto the bird. I think that while they do establish pair bonds that can last through the year, this is also a thing of convenience or opportunity. What happens if you take one of those birds away, even while on chicks? The other one gets a new mate asap. They don't spend time pining or crying or anything else. It's instinct, not love.

[Montucky]

And how well do those partnerships work for you without food or producing slips? You can romanticize it if you want, but it's an example of an opportunistic predator taking advantage of a good thing.

And that is why it's called anthropomorphizing. You are trying to overlay your feelings onto the bird. I think that while they do establish pair bonds that can last through the year, this is also a thing of convenience or opportunity. What happens if you take one of those birds away, even while on chicks? The other one gets a new mate asap. They don't spend time pining or crying or anything else. It's instinct, not love.

Jeez. Maybe because of the animal right rhetoric you feel the need to completely deny the emmotional aspects of birds and consider any discussing of it to be faulty logic and "romanticizing or anthropomorphizing" -the whole thing is sad. You may think i am wrong but your descriptions of birds as opperating based only on purely primals instincts pretty much ignores their behavior. Yes there are individual behaviors like the wing-tail stretch, feaking, bathing, etc that is pure instinct. But there is a lot more that isnt. To suggest that a pair of eagles that have been inseparable for 10 years, care nothing for each other just because one is replaced during the next breeding cycle after the death of another - well I dont know what to tell you. Mate replacement is common in every species that demonstrates strong pair-bonds including humans - that is an observable fact not anthropomorphizing.

I know full well that I alot of the relationship between falconer and bird is based on the falconer providing enhanced hunting opportunity and food. But the discussion was about releasing imprints. And whether you choose to deny or not...most wild animals imprinted to humans are changed irreversably. We falconers forget that being able to hunt is a small piece of pie in the life history of a wild raptor- we just choose to focus on it becaue it is cool. Imprints have been imprinted to humans and their environment - that is their home and humans or a certain human is their mate. Even after a few successful hawking seasons, their ability to make a 180 degree shift from the human environment to then interact with the wild environment is super questionable and kind of harsh in my opinion. Fine some survive, and maybe some "misprints" have a perfectly satisfactory life in the wild. I dont stay up at night thinking about it, I just think it is worth considering the mental wellbeing of animals under our care.

[sevristh]

To suggest that a pair of eagles that have been inseparable for 10 years, care nothing for each other just because one is replaced during the next breeding cycle after the death of another - well I dont know what to tell you. Mate replacement is common in every species that demonstrates strong pair-bonds including humans - that is an observable fact not anthropomorphizing.

I'm not trying to get you pissed off and neither am I upset at this conversation, I simply believe differently from you. You also seem to keep falling back into the same explanations. How do you KNOW the bird feels something? How is it demonstrating this? Look at Jimmy's thread on here where he is interacting with his FRT Lacy while she's on eggs/chicks... he obviously enjoys petting her as do most of us falconers with out birds. However, in my eyes, the bird merely tolerates it or it could even be said may be slightly irritated by it. How many times have you seen a bird be petted by its falconer while blinking its eyes and sort of pulling its head back? Now take that to how a parrot responds... I can't say I have ever seen an example of a hawk or falcon leaning over and fanning its neck feathers in order to solicit being petted. Its fine to be emotional about imprints etc. I simply think it's faulty logic to overlay those feelings onto the bird and think it's the same thing.

[JRedig]

I can't say I have ever seen an example of a hawk or falcon leaning over and fanning its neck feathers in order to solicit being petted.

I've seen several birds who loved getting their heads scratched...it's not all cut and dry!

[Jimmy]

Look at Jimmy's thread on here where he is interacting with his FRT Lacy while she's on eggs/chicks... he obviously enjoys petting her as do most of us falconers with out birds.


I'm not petting her, Dave...... There's a good reason I'm doing that, and it's not all just because I enjoy it.

[FredFogg]

Dave, I don't think you have been around enough imprints and breeding birds to have seen that they do show affection for their mate. I don't know eough to know for sure what exactly Jimmy is doing but I do recognize it as part of the mating process. When I have been courting my prairie falcon, unlike others that bob their head up and down while chupping, I shape my left hand in the shape of a birds head with all of my fingers coming to a point and I bob it up and down while chupping and hold it down to the gravel in the nest ledge and she will bob her head up and down and she actually rubs her head against my hand and I scratch the back of head. Maybe just thinks it is my beak preening her but I do believe she enjoys it. Can any of us actually say we know they enjoy it, no, not unless one of us is Dr. Doolittle and can talk to the animals. But to say raptors don't have emotions or show affection, well, I just don't believe that due to the behavior I have seen them doing. And for you saying they absolutely don't, that isn't any different than someone saying they absolutely do, neither can really prove it.

And using the comparison of when a bird loses a mate and pairs up immediately, well, I swear every mate I have had I loved and when they left the next morning, I paired right back up the next night. I didn't spend any time pining or crying, but I really did love them! LOL toungeout :D

[sevristh]

I'm not petting her, Dave...... There's a good reason I'm doing that, and it's not all just because I enjoy it.

Yes, I realize that, but was using it to make a point because it was the last example I could think of. Not saying I understand the FULL reason, just that I am aware there is more to it.

[sevristh]

Dave, I don't think you have been around enough imprints and breeding birds to have seen that they do show affection for their mate. I don't know eough to know for sure what exactly Jimmy is doing but I do recognize it as part of the mating process. When I have been courting my prairie falcon, unlike others that bob their head up and down while chupping, I shape my left hand in the shape of a birds head with all of my fingers coming to a point and I bob it up and down while chupping and hold it down to the gravel in the nest ledge and she will bob her head up and down and she actually rubs her head against my hand and I scratch the back of head. Maybe just thinks it is my beak preening her but I do believe she enjoys it. Can any of us actually say we know they enjoy it, no, not unless one of us is Dr. Doolittle and can talk to the animals. But to say raptors don't have emotions or show affection, well, I just don't believe that due to the behavior I have seen them doing. And for you saying they absolutely don't, that isn't any different than someone saying they absolutely do, neither can really prove it.

And using the comparison of when a bird loses a mate and pairs up immediately, well, I swear every mate I have had I loved and when they left the next morning, I paired right back up the next night. I didn't spend any time pining or crying, but I really did love them! LOL toungeout :D

Fred,
Good points, but again, I believe that it is more of a sexual response than an emotional one. I really don't think you can ascribe sentimental value to these actions based on our own interpretations of them.

And I am not trying to come off as some unfeeling dick (no pun intended!) here. I thoroughly enjoy interacting with my birds and even more so with the one imprint I raised. But I truly think that these feelings are all about us and the birds are just good to go with whatever happens...

[FredFogg]

Fred,
Good points, but again, I believe that it is more of a sexual response than an emotional one. I really don't think you can ascribe sentimental value to these actions based on our own interpretations of them.

And I am not trying to come off as some unfeeling dick (no pun intended!) here. I thoroughly enjoy interacting with my birds and even more so with the one imprint I raised. But I truly think that these feelings are all about us and the birds are just good to go with whatever happens...

I can see your point Dave but how are we to know if their sexual responses don't have emotions mixed in there. Sure, we base most on our own emotions but how can we say they don't have feelings and emotions. You can't tell me dogs don't have emotions. I know when I go on vacation, the folks I have watching my dog says that after a couple days, he mopes around and is just plain depressed. I would call that an emotion. Why can't birds have that same thing? And truth be told, we can come up with what we think back and forth but we really will never know. I am a half glass full kind of guy, I like to think my birds enjoy being with me because lord knows, most people don't! LOL :eek: :D

[goshawks00]

I like to think my birds enjoy being with me because lord knows, most people don't! LOL :eek: :D

Fred feed them up real good, and see if they like you enough to be with you.toungeout

[sevristh]

I can see your point Dave but how are we to know if their sexual responses don't have emotions mixed in there. Sure, we base most on our own emotions but how can we say they don't have feelings and emotions. You can't tell me dogs don't have emotions. I know when I go on vacation, the folks I have watching my dog says that after a couple days, he mopes around and is just plain depressed. I would call that an emotion. Why can't birds have that same thing? And truth be told, we can come up with what we think back and forth but we really will never know. I am a half glass full kind of guy, I like to think my birds enjoy being with me because lord knows, most people don't! LOL :eek: :D

And I daresay that chimps show even more emotion than your dogs... But were weren't speaking of dogs, now were we? ;)

[Jimmy]

My birds are definitely emotional.
They get rather pissed when I don't feed them......

[wingnut]

Since I started this thread I figured I should make a comment or two. It has taken an interesting twist. Have falconeformes reached the evolutionary level that would make them capable of feeling or expressing emotions. I think not. Nest mates actually kill each other and are eaten. I would not be surprised if a RT found it's mate dead on the road that it wouldn't eat it. From I have learned about birds is that they are not too far removed from the evolutionaly scale from reptiles. I'm kinda going with Dave's line of thinking here. I would also like to think that my birds have some affection for me but as been previously mentioned that affection is primarily influenced by hunger. Given, there are differences between species. I loved my last gos but I'm pretty sure he just put up with me. One of the Harris hawks I flew years ago actually seemed to enjoy my company. But I'm also sure that it was because she had an IQ fractionally higher than a gos. :D

[jfseaman]

There is a difference between anthropomorphism and merely using human communications to attempt to describe the action and reaction.

During breeding season I can feed my imprinted birds to bursting and they still "want" me in there with them. During non-breeding, sometimes they do and sometimes the don't. I'm not anthropomorphizing I'm only using our communications methods to describe action and reaction. The action is the bird calling to me but kacking at anyone else, coming to the nest ledge, bowing and chupping. The reaction is I am lured into the chamber. The birds are communicating, that can not be disputed. Why vs. emotions vs. anthropomorphizing vs. describing action/reaction. Not that important.

David 'believes' and trying to change his belief would mess with his perception and perception is reality. However David's reality may not be my reality, may not be Fred Fogg's reality, etc....

Can we get back to whether imprints should be released.

I am against releasing imprints.

[Jimmy]

I've got no problems with releasing imprints, depending on the bird.

[jfseaman]

I've got no problems with releasing imprints, depending on the bird.
From a scientific perspective, it does nothing to harm the ecological system. Maybe....

From a scientific perspective, it should do nothing to harm the bird if imprinted properly. Maybe....

It's wasted resources.

My observations, "beliefs" and perspective lead me to "understand" that as a non-breeder adult in the wild, it will be persecuted by the breeding adults for territory and food. In lean times it will consume prey that could be used by breeding adults.

As a falconer and breeder, it's a perfectly good falconry bird or potential addition to the captive breeding gene pool.

Why waste it?

Oh, and that comment about most adults in the wild don't breed, I'm not buying it. Either I've been 'lucky' to live in places all my life where there is a much higher percentage of adults that produce than "normal" or the comment is BS.

[Jimmy]

Fred, surely you don't believe that every adult bird breeds every year? I'd like to see your proof of how many adult birds have produced where you have lived. What are you basing your opinion on?

[jfseaman]

Fred, surely you don't believe that every adult bird breeds every year? I'd like to see your proof of how many adult birds have produced where you have lived. What are you basing your opinion on?

Thanks Jimmy for providing a negative challenging comment and a request for a non-available proof in a form that would let you dispute any rebuttal but of course your observations or opinions would be accepted without question.

Or perhaps I'm reading too much aggression into your response.

Please let me know what it really is. Are you challenging me to a duel or are you curious on what I base my observations on?

[Jimmy]

Well, I was only curious.... but if you're gonna think like that, forget it. I could care less now.

[sevristh]

There is a difference between anthropomorphism and merely using human communications to attempt to describe the action and reaction.

You are absolutely right. But when you (or Montucky in this case) state that an imprint is going to be "lonely" in the wild, then you are anthropomorphizing. He was attempting to assume what the bird would feel, and that was my point.




It's wasted resources.

My observations, "beliefs" and perspective lead me to "understand" that as a non-breeder adult in the wild, it will be persecuted by the breeding adults for territory and food. In lean times it will consume prey that could be used by breeding adults.

As a falconer and breeder, it's a perfectly good falconry bird or potential addition to the captive breeding gene pool.


By this logic, then we should not release any of the birds we take for falconry, for if they do not breed, they will consume prey that could be used by the ones that do. In my opinion, this logic is only one step away from what the anti's would say. That we are taking that bird out of the territory it was "meant" to be in and releasing it later on in a place it was not "meant" to be in.

And if it wasn't made clear already, I have no problem with (most) imprints being released as long as common (uncommon?) sense is used.

[Saluqi]

Floaters, non-breeding adult and subadult raptors are common, and play an important role in the productivity of a species. When there are high numbers of floaters in a population that means that population is saturated and the available territories are full and as a result the overall productivity decreases. It's been documented many times with nesting peregrines when one of the pair is killed that a surrogate arrives to replace the dead bird. Same with Cooper's hawks around Albuquerque, a friend of mine is doing a radio telemetry study of them right now, and he's seeing a large number of floaters. In healthy populations floaters play an important role.

[jfseaman]

Well, I was only curious.... but if you're gonna think like that, forget it. I could care less now.
Jimmy, there is no 'tone of voice' in a written response, I was merely trying to determine what you were really after.

If you "could care less now" you wouldn't have replied at all.

Is it possible for me to find un-mated 'adults', yup. Without an actual count, I believe from my observations that it is probably about 1%. In other words, for every 50 successful pairs I can find 1 un-paired adult.

Is it possible for me to find mated, unsuccessful pairs, of course but I've not 'seen' it in my observations.

On the vineyard last year there were 4 adult pairs of redtails and 16 juveniles. Same vineyard the year before there were 3 pairs and 12 juveniles. By my house there is a pair about every 2 miles. Every one of them fledged young every year I've lived here.

My data is my professional observations. That is what I do for a living, observe birds. When I do something for a job, I get good at it or get out. You can choose to dispute my observations or my credentials but it would only lead in an unproductive direction.

[goshawkr]

Floaters, non-breeding adult and subadult raptors are common, and play an important role in the productivity of a species. When there are high numbers of floaters in a population that means that population is saturated and the available territories are full and as a result the overall productivity decreases. It's been documented many times with nesting peregrines when one of the pair is killed that a surrogate arrives to replace the dead bird. Same with Cooper's hawks around Albuquerque, a friend of mine is doing a radio telemetry study of them right now, and he's seeing a large number of floaters. In healthy populations floaters play an important role.

With most raptor populations, the floaters constitute 90% or even more of the adult population.

All adults are NOT breeders. Not even MOST adults are breeders.

[jfseaman]

You are absolutely right. But when you (or Montucky in this case) state that an imprint is going to be "lonely" in the wild, then you are anthropomorphizing. He was attempting to assume what the bird would feel, and that was my point.None of us can know how any other living thing 'feels' about anything even humans to humans. We are all wired differently.
By this logic, then we should not release any of the birds we take for falconry, for if they do not breed, they will consume prey that could be used by the ones that do. In my opinion, this logic is only one step away from what the anti's would say. That we are taking that bird out of the territory it was "meant" to be in and releasing it later on in a place it was not "meant" to be in.In my opinion, this is overblown corruption meant to support a failing assumption.
And if it wasn't made clear already, I have no problem with (most) imprints being released as long as common (uncommon?) sense is used.I have no intention of trying to convince you to change your views. You probably won't change mine either. I believe this is fine and a wonderful thing in the world.

[goshawkr]

But you weren't talking about falconry, or our feelings, you were trying to impress them upon a solitary predator with purely primal instincts and urges.

Dave,

As others have said, your welcome to your views.

Anthropomorphism is the 'sin' of ascribing human emotions and thoughts to a non-human object.

However, I believe its at least as bad to commite the opposite 'sin' of being anthropocentric and insist that ONLY humans have thoughts and feelings.

Raptors feel and think. I have no doubt of that, having seen far too much evidence supporting that position over the nearly two decades I have interacted with them daily. But they do NOT think and feel like humans, or like dogs. they think and feel like raptors.

They are also very social animals, but not nearly in the manner that we are. They enjoy the company of other raptors, and they do get lonely. But they really need their solitude as well.

[goshawks00]

C'mon guys can't we all get alongtoungeout

I know, maybe a poll will solve this mystery? Should we or shouldn't we?
We can use Gallups + or - 5% rule. The winning side gets all birds the loser would release. Or in the other case the winners get all the birds the losers have kept.(dog)

Game on?

BTW I am for releasing if you want to, what's the old whip... "it has no impact.."

[Todd Brown]

Geoff, I think is close here.....It's much easier to see emotion in other mammals,because we are mammals ourselves..... and our BOP's are "MUCH" different.

However, Sometimes when I'm in the weathering area, with my hawk, he nibbles on my hand,even after being fed and when he's fat.

He could bite a chunk out or jump to another perch but he doesn't,in my mind it seems like he's playing or being friendly.

I do think they have a mind of their own and if ,infact, that is the case...then how can every single reaction but just an instinct?

I once saw some young barn swallows chase ,catch and release a peice of tissue and before the tissue drifted to far another swallow would come along and catch it and release it.... again and again.

Are mammals smarter or show more emotion?....perhaps....but I don't think BOP's are mindless killing machines.

[Dirthawking]

Poll added!

Not that I feel it will help...:D

[goshawks00]

Good job Mario, clapp, sorry you added a fence sitter positiontoungeout

[jfseaman]

C'mon guys can't we all get alongtoungeout

I know, maybe a poll will solve this mystery? Should we or shouldn't we?
We can use Gallups + or - 5% rule. The winning side gets all birds the loser would release. Or in the other case the winners get all the birds the losers have kept.(dog)

Game on?

BTW I am for releasing if you want to, what's the old whip... "it has no impact.."Umm,

Sorry, I guess I was coming across all pedantic like. confusedd Bad habit in my writing style.

I really consider this just a friendly discussion. :D

I believe that everyone has the RIGHT to pursue falconry as they want to. Just because I would prefer to not release imprints doesn't mean I want to force that position on someone else but if anyone out there has an imprint tiercel prairie please consider passing it to me rather than releasing it. ;)

How about those NY Mets ehh.:eek:

[Dirthawking]

Good job Mario, clapp, sorry you added a fence sitter positiontoungeout

Only a fence sitter if you don't explain your reason to the response. It will help keep the conversation going. A poll without explanation means nothing.

[goshawks00]

Mario , I do think 'it depends on the bird' is the correct answer. There are definitely some imprints that shouldn't be released... just as I suspect there are passages that aren't candidates, esp. geriatric types....

[harrishawk_79]

i really would have to say it depends on the bird its self.and how it actted around people.if it was a face grabber and attacked people i cant see lettin it go wild.

[wingnut]

i really would have to say it depends on the bird its self.and how it actted around people.if it was a face grabber and attacked people i cant see lettin it go wild.

Just curious. What would you do with a bird like that?

[jfseaman]

Just curious. What would you do with a bird like that?
Find the falconer and a hickory switch.toungeout;) Just kidding.

Ahh, the challenge of failed imprints. As a breeder bird those aggression problems may go away or not frus)

Rehabbers and educators shouldn't want it nor should they get it because it creates a bad name for all falconers.

Some falconer will have to feed and care for it FOREVER. Crummy but I'd love to hear other 'ethical' options.

[MrBill]

Fred writes:


>There is a difference between anthropomorphism and merely using human communications to attempt to describe the action and reaction.

You are absolutely right, Fred. If we are going to have a discussion like this we can only use human terminology to express what we want to say. I don't know how else we would discuss it.

But, focusing on the topic at hand, as it relates to releasing imprints, it appears that some folks are saying that these birds form an attachment with thier falconer that goes beyond the imprinting process. Examples were how wild hawks form lifelong relationships, suggesting that there was something other than breeding and convenience involved; that hawks are capable of having lasting "feelings" for each other, which can transfer to humans in the case of imprints. And, therefore, we should take this into consideration when we think about releasing them. Others feel that hawks don't have feelings, that it is all about survival and procreation.

Like so many other things involving hawk behavior, I don't think we will ever be able settle this debate, one way or the other because we can't get into their head. So, to each their own (IMO). But, I do agree that we should give releasing an imprint due consideration, as there is more to it than being able to breed with their own species. They, of course, have to survive, and they have not had the benefit of honing their survival skills.

Bill Boni

[outhawkn]

I think there is no evidence to suggest that most if not all imprints could be released.....JMO.stupd:D

[jfseaman]

Fred writes:


>There is a difference between anthropomorphism and merely using human communications to attempt to describe the action and reaction.

You are absolutely right, Fred. If we are going to have a discussion like this we can only use human terminology to express what we want to say. I don't know how else we would discuss it.

But, focusing on the topic at hand, as it relates to releasing imprints, it appears that some folks are saying that these birds form an attachment with thier falconer that goes beyond the imprinting process. Examples were how wild hawks form lifelong relationships, suggesting that there was something other than breeding and convenience involved; that hawks are capable of having lasting "feelings" for each other, which can transfer to humans in the case of imprints. And, therefore, we should take this into consideration when we think about releasing them. Others feel that hawks don't have feelings, that it is all about survival and procreation.

Like so many other things involving hawk behavior, I don't think we will ever be able settle this debate, one way or the other because we can't get into their head. So, to each their own (IMO). But, I do agree that we should give releasing an imprint due consideration, as there is more to it than being able to breed with their own species. They, of course, have to survive, and they have not had the benefit of honing their survival skills.

Bill Boni
clappclapp

Where I live, the redtails do not migrate. After the young birds are hunting for them selves, the adults will exhibit courtship flights. I see this every year. In prosperous times like the past 3, this occurs even if the young of the year have not left the area.

Is this behavior more than food and procreation? We will never know but a California redtail is not a solitary animal. Yes in mid winter the adults are physically farther apart than they are form February to September but solitary, not really.

To ascribe this behavior to an imprint as 'feelings', I believe that would be anthropomorphism. To retain your imprint because it would deprive the bird of this expression, fine with me. To consider to release or not based on this expression of behavior being denied, justified. To release an imprint regardless of indications of any expressed behavior, hmmm, if it were me, I'd rethink it.

In other words, it depends on the bird. As the falconer responsible, your choice dude but if it's a tiercel prairie, umm, I'll pick him up or pay the shipping and health certificate costs ;);)

[Todd Brown]

This thread is very interesting.....I voted no (err on the side of caution).

My EMRT is an imprint and I think he would be ok if released but I don't know how he would behave if he were starving.

As stated earlier, he was gone for 4 months and appears to have done well....no reports of any attacks on people or small cats or dogs.He's never been aggressive toward anyone that I've seen. A territory scream at the most.....usually, when he doesn't like someone he just kind of hunts on his own and doesn't respond well.

As few of us as there are. We don't have a lot of political power. The last thing we need is bad PR.

As unpredictable as this sport is even in the best of situations(We've all had our birds do something unexpected).

Why invite unneeded PR by releasing an imprint?

[Jimmy]

Why invite unneeded PR by releasing an imprint?

Why assume there would be any PR?

[Todd Brown]

We know that imprints behave differently than passage birds toward people.(I'm sure there are exceptions)

I don't know for sure but I would think thats one of the reasons an apprentice can't have one.

Let's say that a known imprint was released and it killed someone's pet kitten or small dog right in front of them or grabbed someone in the face.

I could see where some bad PR might come from this.

[JRedig]

We know that imprints behave differently than passage birds toward people.(I'm sure there are exceptions)

I don't know for sure but I would think thats one of the reasons an apprentice can't have one.

Let's say that a known imprint was released and it killed someone's pet kitten or small dog right in front of them or grabbed someone in the face.

I could see where some bad PR might come from this.

Every year many many baby raptors are found by people (not falconers), raised and released. How could it be proven that it was a falconry bird or related to our sport in any way?

[jfseaman]

Why assume there would be any PR?
It appears that bad PR will find an group much more easily than good PR. crazyy

[jfseaman]

Every year many many baby raptors are found by people (not falconers), raised and released. How could it be proven that it was a falconry bird or related to our sport in any way?

I believe that some portion of bad relations between falconry and rehab can be traced to 'falconry' birds with problems in a permanently unreleasable state. Whether they really are ex-falconry birds released in an inappropriate fashion doesn't matter, it still is used against falconry. Is it right/proper/moral/ethical for rehab to make assumptions about birds with problems originating from human interaction to be from licensed falconers, NO. Doesn't stop them as 'bad blood' is passed from rehabber to rehabber same as it is from falconer to falconer.

Kitty, you don't count because your bothhttp://www.nafex.net/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I would error on the side of caution and think in terms of 'it could happen'. I know that position can be taken to far but with imprints, I support it.

[Todd Brown]

Well...I don't know for sure that it can be traced back to a falconer but that still doesn't mean that we should release imprints.

We have a responsibility not only to our hawks but to the falconry community.

Do regs require you to band a released bird? This is not a baited BC.....I don't know the answer but it seems I've heard this somewhere.

[sevristh]

I believe that some portion of bad relations between falconry and rehab can be traced to 'falconry' birds with problems in a permanently unreleasable state. Whether they really are ex-falconry birds released in an inappropriate fashion doesn't matter, it still is used against falconry. Is it right/proper/moral/ethical for rehab to make assumptions about birds with problems originating from human interaction to be from licensed falconers, NO. Doesn't stop them as 'bad blood' is passed from rehabber to rehabber same as it is from falconer to falconer.

Fred,
Am I correct in reading through your post and coming to the conclusion that you agree we can't change their minds, but that we should restrict ourselves anyway? If the majority of the birds that are found (and I would think this might be the case) are ones that were raised by unknowing/ignorant people that found a baby bird, fed it, and released it, then how will our actions have an impact one way or the other? If anything, falconers as a majority are probably far more likely to release an imprint as far from people as they can, in an environment where the bird will have plenty of game available.

What it all comes down to, though, is that this subject of whether to release or not is just as "un-winnable" as the one about anthropomorphizing. The only way to prove anything would be to do a radio tracking study on a large number of released imprints. Even at that point, there is a very large number of variables such as imprinting technique, etc.

[Jimmy]

Here's a news flash....... imprints are released every year. Both intentionally, and unintentionally. I'd like to see an example of this bad PR people are worried about, and not some "let's say" scenario. You could have that same scenario with a captive imprint or a passage bird, but I don't hear anyone saying not to fly their birds because of that slim chance.....

[FredFogg]

Fred feed them up real good, and see if they like you enough to be with you.toungeout

Barry, all of my current birds are as fat as ticks right now. So they are all fed up, doesn't seem to have changed how they interact with me. I dare to say that an underfed bird is more likely to show you the bad side of emotions than an overfed bird. LOL toungeout :D

But then again, I am talking about birds in a breeding project, not hunting birds. Totally different scenerio.

[jfseaman]

Dave,

For me this isn't an argument to win or not, it's a discussion of the pitfalls, merits and implications of releasing imprints.

It is my belief from limited interaction with rehab that 'they' already believe 'them' to be lost or released falconry birds. I would prefer to avoid supporting hundreds of falsehoods with one factual incident of an imprint falconry bird released for 'them' to anthropomorpize over.

I support your right to practice falconry your way. I hope you support my right to practice falconry my way.

Besides, I really enjoy making birds so why would I release perfectly good genes?

I do feel that with the powerful American falconry knowledge, the reason to imprint is breeding with some exceptions for accipiters.

[FredFogg]

Is it possible for me to find un-mated 'adults', yup. Without an actual count, I believe from my observations that it is probably about 1%. In other words, for every 50 successful pairs I can find 1 un-paired adult.

Is it possible for me to find mated, unsuccessful pairs, of course but I've not 'seen' it in my observations.

On the vineyard last year there were 4 adult pairs of redtails and 16 juveniles. Same vineyard the year before there were 3 pairs and 12 juveniles. By my house there is a pair about every 2 miles. Every one of them fledged young every year I've lived here.

My data is my professional observations. That is what I do for a living, observe birds. When I do something for a job, I get good at it or get out. You can choose to dispute my observations or my credentials but it would only lead in an unproductive direction.


clappclapp

Where I live, the redtails do not migrate. After the young birds are hunting for them selves, the adults will exhibit courtship flights. I see this every year. In prosperous times like the past 3, this occurs even if the young of the year have not left the area.



Ok Fred, I am confused. You only view 1% un-matched adults. You stated 4 pairs, 16 young seen on the vineyard. Did 14 of those 16 all pair up or not survive since you state they don't migrate. I just can't see only 1% of the raptors in your area are un-paired, that is way too low a figure. And I don't believe you can base your figures on just your observation. We tend to look for things we are looking for and don't observe what we aren't looking for. Are you looking for un-paired raptors and how can you prove it is a paired raptor. I saw 3 raptors, all adults on a sign yesterday. Menage a trois , I think not but possible. So most likely one was an un-paired adult. But there are other times when I see 2 adults on a sign, are they a pair, possibly, but that doesn't mean they actually are. Raptors tolerate each other as long as there is enough food around. Using visual observations just don't cut it in my book.

[goshawks00]

Barry, all of my current birds are as fat as ticks right now. So they are all fed up, doesn't seem to have changed how they interact with me. I dare to say that an underfed bird is more likely to show you the bad side of emotions than an overfed bird. LOL toungeout :D

But then again, I am talking about birds in a breeding project, not hunting birds. Totally different scenerio.

Fred it doesn't matter, now that they are all fed up , and in breeding mnode, open your mews and let them fly around , and see if they continue to come back every day... They do love ya don't theytoungeout

[FredFogg]

Fred it doesn't matter, now that they are all fed up , and in breeding mnode, open your mews and let them fly around , and see if they continue to come back every day... They do love ya don't theytoungeout

So a bird that flys away can't show you emotions before it flew away? frus) Apples and oranges here! This discussion is getting kind of silly. To say birds or any animal doesn't have emotions is a bit silly to me. But then again, humans tend to think we are the only ones capable of doing things other animals can't because we are so smart. What a joke? Unfortunately, it is our intelligence (or lack of using it properly) that leads to discussions like this. As has been said before, folks are going to believe what they want and all the discussions in the world most likely won't change their view and I believe raptors have emotions and I base it on my observations of the birds I interact with.

[goshawks00]

No it isn't all that hard, can they have emotions, maybe, doesn't really mean anything... The point is if you think they are emotionally attached to you... do as I said open your chamber doors and see just how attached they are... Doesn't matter if it's an imprint or not, you will soon see the light.....BTW I did lose an imprint once for a month and she was taken up 5 foot from where she was lost... Do I think she 'came back' because she loved me... haha hardly...she knew what a lure was and can in to it for food.

[FredFogg]

No it isn't all that hard, can they have emotions, maybe, doesn't really mean anything... The point is if you think they are emotionally attached to you... do as I said open your chamber doors and see just how attached they are... Doesn't matter if it's an imprint or not, you will soon see the light.....BTW I did lose an imprint once for a month and she was taken up 5 foot from where she was lost... Do I think she 'came back' because she loved me... haha hardly...she knew what a lure was and can in to it for food.

What you aren't getting Barry is sometimes the bird can show emotions but that emotion doesn't have to mean it wants to be with you. Hate is an emotion, opening that door and the bird getting out of there could be because it hates you. It isn't all or nothing. You keep saying the bird doesn't love me, who is talking about love. If the bird shows me a little affection by rubbing its head against my hand and making noises that sound like it is comfortable and enjoying itself, I call that some type of emotion. Sure, I open the door and it flys out, it might not come back but that doesn't erase the emotion it just showed me. Again, you believe what you want, I will believe what I want and the world will continue to turn.

And with all that said, I would turn loose an imprint in a minute if I felt it was the right bird and the right situation.

[Todd Brown]

Well, I will admit that my EMRT didn't get into trouble while he was gone 4 months...somebody heard his bells....thats how I got him back and he was in an area that had lots of people around....25 miles south of San Francisco.

I sure worried about him a lot though.:(

[MrBill]

I don't know how far we want to take this conversation, but . . . .

>To say birds or any animal doesn't have emotions is a bit silly to me.

Fred, So we have a clear understanding of what you are saying, what emotions do you feel raptors demonstrate, based upon your experience? Thanks.

Bill Boni

[FredFogg]

I don't know how far we want to take this conversation, but . . . .

>To say birds or any animal doesn't have emotions is a bit silly to me.

Fred, So we have a clear understanding of what you are saying, what emotions do you feel raptors demonstrate, based upon your experience? Thanks.

Bill Boni

Bill, first tell me what you consider emotions (fear, anger, happiness, etc.?) and I will tell you the ones I believe I have experienced.

[MrBill]

Fred,

Just go on-line and search for emotions. You will find a bunch of them, more than I could provide you off the top of my head. And tell us which one's you are talking about. I think identifying these emotions is necessary, if we are going to continue to debate the issue; otherwise, we are swinging in the dark (IMHO).

Bill Boni

[sevristh]

I believe the emotion that sparked this line of thought in this thread was 'loneliness'...

[goshawks00]

Does it really matter? So what if they get lonely...Yes they have emotions , but life is more than that... The question is, or rather the attempt was to see what others think about releasing imprints... It's already been done hundreds if not thousands of times. No one has died, no one has lost any falconry priveleges... Get over it. If you want to do it, stuff who ever says no, put on your big boy pants and just do it. If you are against it, then don't...Simple eh? Funny how only something like 31 folks thought it important enough to vote but close to 1400 have viewed this thread. Must be the molt ....crazyy

[FredFogg]

Fred,

Just go on-line and search for emotions. You will find a bunch of them, more than I could provide you off the top of my head. And tell us which one's you are talking about. I think identifying these emotions is necessary, if we are going to continue to debate the issue; otherwise, we are swinging in the dark (IMHO).

Bill Boni

Bill, there isn't really anything to debate. I believe my birds show emotions (fear, anger, happiness, affection, for example) and others don't believe. Period! End of story! As Barry said, it doesn't really make any difference. But I will state again as I have stated in other threads, I believe the two most important aspects of good falconry are patience and reading your bird. And if I believe I am seeing different emotions when reading my bird and it works for me, then that is all that matters. Enough said! frus)

[MrBill]

Fred,

It seems like you are getting a little defensive. I wasn't trying to do that, at all. It could have developed into an interesting discussion (IMO), but ultimately, you are right, there is no way to prove or disprove whether hawks have emotions. So, while the discussion would have been interesting, it would have amounted to a mental exercise more than anything else and probably upset some folks. Better left unsaid.

Bill Boni

[chamokane]

What the heck is an emotion anyway? Is it a product of higher reasoning, or the the result of some little gray cells being flooded with various hormones? (Honest question.)

I now of an imprint male RT that was released by a falconer, and then recaptured at the request of the game dept because he was hanging around an apartment complex "preying on kittens, puppies, and other domestic critters" and the residents were going to shoot him. The quote is from the game dept.

I know a rehabber who took in an eyas female RT, hand raised her and turned her loose. About a year later the rehabber walked out her back door and the RT hit her hard in the back of the head. When I talked to her, she had the RT in a big chicken wire pen and didn't know what to do with her.

Quite a few people have been hit by wild Goshawks (including me) when trespassing in the nest area. Maybe wild Goshawks should be extirpated.

[goshawks00]

Quite a few people have been hit by wild Goshawks (including me) when trespassing in the nest area. Maybe wild Goshawks should be extirpated.


No, those aren't wild goshawks, they are released imprints of mine, and I want them back:eek:

[Jack]

Any time a creature reacts to a particular stemuli, it does so because it is experiencing some sort of emotion. It might not be something we would experience, or it might be something we do experience. I know that they experience fear. And they seem to experience other emotions as well.
Emotions are experienced even without our knowing it sometimes, and we even know sometimes but have no idea why we are experiencing it. We can name our emotions for the most part, but I think we would be assuming too much to think humans were the only creatures capable of emotions.
Try to explain the emotion we call love. In reality, love for our children is simply a maturnal instinct we have. And there are humans that are simply not capable of that emotion. Love for our spouses or significant other can easily be explained as physical attraction. Emotion? Or simply a physical attraction? I can show you some females that you would have difficulty loving, since there would be zero physical attraction. Same goes for men. We are attracted to what pleases the eye, so is that actually love? No matter what emotion you might be experiencing, a sudden change in your hormones can change that emotion just as suddenly. Every brain reacts to homonal change. And the way that brain interacts with the body can be considered an emotion if you think about it.

[sevristh]

From Dictionary.com...
"emotion - an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fear), hate, or the (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/the) like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness."

"instinct -
1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species. 2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency."


Any time a creature reacts to a particular stemuli, it does so because it is experiencing some sort of emotion.

I disagree. Instinct far better describes the reactions in my opinion than does emotion.

[jal4470]

Fear is an emotion.

Raptors Fear.

Ergo raptors feel emotion.

Now the only thing left to discuss is what other emotions they may or may not feel. Ennui or schadenfreude are probably out, affection, I would say is probably in

[MrBill]

Jacob writes:

>Fear is an emotion.

Raptors Fear.

Ergo raptors feel emotion.

Jacob,

Fear is considered an emotion in humans, but there is also "instict" which Dave has referred to when it comes to an animal being in what could be considered as a fearful situation. Instinct comes from the reptilian (oldest) part of our brain, which results in "fight or flight" type of responses. And, with hawks, based upon the size of their brains, they are much closer to their reptilian ancestors than we are. So, fear is probably not a good example of emotion in terms of hawks.

From what I am reading, without coming right out and saying so, it appears that people are talking about some sort of attachment or affection towards humans, which would certainly be an expression of emotion.

Bill Boni

[wingnut]

Any time a creature reacts to a particular stemuli, it does so because it is experiencing some sort of emotion. It might not be something we would experience, or it might be something we do experience. I know that they experience fear. And they seem to experience other emotions as well.
Emotions are experienced even without our knowing it sometimes, and we even know sometimes but have no idea why we are experiencing it. We can name our emotions for the most part, but I think we would be assuming too much to think humans were the only creatures capable of emotions.
Try to explain the emotion we call love. In reality, love for our children is simply a maturnal instinct we have. And there are humans that are simply not capable of that emotion. Love for our spouses or significant other can easily be explained as physical attraction. Emotion? Or simply a physical attraction? I can show you some females that you would have difficulty loving, since there would be zero physical attraction. Same goes for men. We are attracted to what pleases the eye, so is that actually love? No matter what emotion you might be experiencing, a sudden change in your hormones can change that emotion just as suddenly. Every brain reacts to homonal change. And the way that brain interacts with the body can be considered an emotion if you think about it.

Jack, I love you man. You just put it out there. I enjoy reading your posts and have learned much from your experiences. Many of the things animals and also plants react to have nothing to do with emotions which is quite fortunate. For example, if one touches something very hot (the stimulus) the animals sensory system bypasses the brain and you pull away. No emotions involved. You completely lost me on the whole love thing among humans. I'm thinking the females that you could show us that we would not have a physical attraction to are your old girl friends.:D:D

[sevristh]

From what I am reading, without coming right out and saying so, it appears that people are talking about some sort of attachment or affection towards humans, which would certainly be an expression of emotion.

Bill Boni

Bill,

The reason this was brought up initially was more because of a reference to loneliness as it may apply to a released imprint. One of the arguments against releasing them was that they would experience an undue amount of loneliness in the wild since they would not see other hawks as 'company'.

And I agree with your assertion that fear in a hawk is more of a primal instinct than fear in humans. It's somewhat akin to trying to compare the reaction that a human has when jumped in a dark alley to a person's fear of heights, or spiders, or facing a past attacker etc. The fight or flight is more of an instinct, and not so much an emotion. Thus, a raptor showing 'fear', in my opinion, does not show that it feels emotion.

[MrBill]

Dave writes:

>The reason this was brought up initially was more because of a reference to loneliness as it may apply to a released imprint. One of the arguments against releasing them was that they would experience an undue amount of loneliness in the wild since they would not see other hawks as 'company'.

Dave, since feeling lonely refers to being without company, I could see how an imprint might feel that way initially, if released; after all, it has become conditioned to someone playing a big part in their lives. However, I doubt if there is an accompanying feeling of "sadness," but, we will never know, which is a good thing because we can believe what we want to in good conscience :-)

Bill Boni

[jfseaman]

...Quite a few people have been hit by wild Goshawks (including me) when trespassing in the nest area. Maybe wild Goshawks should be extirpated.
Dave,

I believe your point is that humans interact with 'wild' raptors in a number of ways. Released imprints can manifest behaviors that result in the same interactions.

However silly logic leaps like the above cloud your message.

[jfseaman]

Any time a creature reacts to a particular stemuli, it does so because it is experiencing some sort of emotion. It might not be something we would experience, or it might be something we do experience. I know that they experience fear. And they seem to experience other emotions as well.
Emotions are experienced even without our knowing it sometimes, and we even know sometimes but have no idea why we are experiencing it. We can name our emotions for the most part, but I think we would be assuming too much to think humans were the only creatures capable of emotions.
Try to explain the emotion we call love. In reality, love for our children is simply a maturnal instinct we have. And there are humans that are simply not capable of that emotion. Love for our spouses or significant other can easily be explained as physical attraction. Emotion? Or simply a physical attraction? I can show you some females that you would have difficulty loving, since there would be zero physical attraction. Same goes for men. We are attracted to what pleases the eye, so is that actually love? No matter what emotion you might be experiencing, a sudden change in your hormones can change that emotion just as suddenly. Every brain reacts to homonal change. And the way that brain interacts with the body can be considered an emotion if you think about it.He's done it again folks. clappclapp

[jfseaman]

..I disagree. Instinct far better describes the reactions in my opinion than does emotion.
I applaud your right to disagree. clapp

Where I fault your logic is that in observation, different individuals of the same species in the same situation react differently. Thereby raising a question of whether this is learned response or genetic instinctual response.

Do you fear a bear when it is attacking as an emotion or do you respond out of instinct?

Of course it could be much less cut and dried, it could be a combination of both at different levels in response to different stimuli.

I submit this: If the fear response were pure instinct, how could we ever overcome the reaction to the fear response?

I postulate that the fear response is a combination of the instinctual fear of the unknown and a cognitive reaction. In manning/training, we undertake to remove the 'unknown', resulting in removal if the instinctual response and replacing it with a cognitive response.

[FredFogg]

I applaud your right to disagree. clapp

Where I fault your logic is that in observation, different individuals of the same species in the same situation react differently. Thereby raising a question of whether this is learned response or genetic instinctual response.

Do you fear a bear when it is attacking as an emotion or do you respond out of instinct?

Of course it could be much less cut and dried, it could be a combination of both at different levels in response to different stimuli.

I submit this: If the fear response were pure instinct, how could we ever overcome the reaction to the fear response?

I postulate that the fear response is a combination of the instinctual fear of the unknown and a cognitive reaction. In manning/training, we undertake to remove the 'unknown', resulting in removal if the instinctual response and replacing it with a cognitive response.

Yeah, what he said! toungeout :D

[chamokane]

No, those aren't wild goshawks, they are released imprints of mine, and I want them back:eek:

Barry,
I'll certainly try to round up as many of those birds as I can and get them back to you. However, I feel that it's only fair to warn you that some amount of liability may be attached to one or two of the larger females.

[chamokane]

Dave,

I believe your point is that humans interact with 'wild' raptors in a number of ways. Released imprints can manifest behaviors that result in the same interactions.

However silly logic leaps like the above cloud your message.

Hi Fred,
If you can discern a clear message from anything I might post on a subject like this, you're a better man than I am; which I never doubted, by the way.

It would be almost impossible for me to articulate my thoughts, emotions, and instinctual reactions on this particular subject. They are mostly without words and are derived from many years of keeping falcons hawks, and other animals in the house where they could interact with me, my family, and other animals when we were not hunting or doing abatement work. I have also allowed small wild animals to come into the house for shelter and food, and I have encouraged a lot of wildlife to come into my yard to live or just conduct some business and move on. I also spend a lot of time just wandering around watching anything I come across.

My silly leaps of logic, as you put it, may be a product of data overload coupled with the realization that, if I adopt only one single point of view, it will likely be the point of view that I prefer based on my own needs and not on objective logical constructions, and I would have to deny conclusions that I might have reached if I had been free enough and brave enough to look at things from a different point of view. Also, I find that I am very suspicious of "objective logical constructions." I'm not sure that humans are really capable of gathering data that is accurate enough to be collated into valid information, and I also suspect that our collating process is usually flawed. Science is forever revising itself, and "truth" depends on which "authority" has been consulted.

Therefore, I find myself looking at most things that I stumble across from an almost uncountable number of points of view at the same time, and, at the same time, possibly, no point of view at all. I feel that it would limit me terribly to adopt a rigid position and defend it and declare that I believed it. At some level I would know that I was lying and I suspect that lying is a self destructive practice. So, I hope that you will understand that some of my silly leaps are just an attempt to integrate two or usually many differing points of view. It may also be that I try not to take myself too seriously.

Has anyone read "Alex & Me" by Irene M. Pepperberg? I suspect that some readers will love the book and view it as a vindication of their point of view. Others will hate it and try to discredit it as anthropomorphic drivel. Either way, it's a good read, and Ms Pepperberg appears to be a serious and dedicated researcher.

By the way, I think I like the original form of the word anthropomorphic better. If we're going to be pedantic and throw big words around, we might as well throw in as many syllables as possible. Anthropoidapomorphic just seems more satisfying.:D

[sevristh]

I submit this: If the fear response were pure instinct, how could we ever overcome the reaction to the fear response?

I postulate that the fear response is a combination of the instinctual fear of the unknown and a cognitive reaction. In manning/training, we undertake to remove the 'unknown', resulting in removal if the instinctual response and replacing it with a cognitive response.

Would you agree that a BOPs tendency to pounce on anything furry and moving (within reason) is an instinct? But can't this also be easily overcome by repeated failure to capture said small furry thing? Or, similarly, if every time the BOP goes for the small furry thing, you slap it out of the air, eventually it's not going to go after it, or it's going to try to go around you first.

I think this is conditioning training in various forms, as is manning. But not really sure how this points toward the bird feeling emotions vs. acting on instinct?
I think your assessment of manning leading to a cognitive response is somewhat true. Though I also think that in order to classify it as an emotion, the thought process needs to be about a bit more than from point A to point B. I guess I just think that these simple steps are more closely related to instinctual actions than emotional actions.

Sorry if that gets a bit clouded, but I've been frying my brain on chemistry all day! frus)

[jfseaman]

Hi Fred,
If you can discern a clear message from anything I might post on a subject like this, you're a better man than I am; which I never doubted, by the way.

It would be almost impossible for me to articulate my thoughts, emotions, and instinctual reactions on this particular subject. They are mostly without words and are derived from many years of keeping falcons hawks, and other animals in the house where they could interact with me, my family, and other animals when we were not hunting or doing abatement work. I have also allowed small wild animals to come into the house for shelter and food, and I have encouraged a lot of wildlife to come into my yard to live or just conduct some business and move on. I also spend a lot of time just wandering around watching anything I come across.

My silly leaps of logic, as you put it, may be a product of data overload coupled with the realization that, if I adopt only one single point of view, it will likely be the point of view that I prefer based on my own needs and not on objective logical constructions, and I would have to deny conclusions that I might have reached if I had been free enough and brave enough to look at things from a different point of view. Also, I find that I am very suspicious of "objective logical constructions." I'm not sure that humans are really capable of gathering data that is accurate enough to be collated into valid information, and I also suspect that our collating process is usually flawed. Science is forever revising itself, and "truth" depends on which "authority" has been consulted.

Therefore, I find myself looking at most things that I stumble across from an almost uncountable number of points of view at the same time, and, at the same time, possibly, no point of view at all. I feel that it would limit me terribly to adopt a rigid position and defend it and declare that I believed it. At some level I would know that I was lying and I suspect that lying is a self destructive practice. So, I hope that you will understand that some of my silly leaps are just an attempt to integrate two or usually many differing points of view. It may also be that I try not to take myself too seriously.

Has anyone read "Alex & Me" by Irene M. Pepperberg? I suspect that some readers will love the book and view it as a vindication of their point of view. Others will hate it and try to discredit it as anthropomorphic drivel. Either way, it's a good read, and Ms Pepperberg appears to be a serious and dedicated researcher.

By the way, I think I like the original form of the word anthropomorphic better. If we're going to be pedantic and throw big words around, we might as well throw in as many syllables as possible. Anthropoidapomorphic just seems more satisfying.:D
toungeout I guess everything has to be uber serious.

I concede, what ever your point is, you win.

I only comment is that it seems more important that you win than actually sharing anything useful.haillhaill

[chamokane]

toungeout I guess everything has to be uber serious.

I concede, what ever your point is, you win.

I only comment is that it seems more important that you win than actually sharing anything useful.haillhaill

Jeff,

I rarely try to "win" in a conversation. I don't really like debates. If I was trying to make a point, it would be that, even after a lot of experience I have no way of knowing with any degree of accuracy just what goes on in the mind of a bird, another person, or, a lot of the time, myself.

If you want my best guess, I would have to say that I suspect that many animals, including birds, are aware, do experience emotions, and even formulate and carry out short term plans. As far as instinct goes, I don't think that you can always separate instinct from other thought processes. I think that animals, including humans, are driven by instinct and use whatever logic they poses to satisfy those drives. I have never seen a bird do algebra, but I have known quite a few humans who could not do algebra. I could be wrong about any of this.

There, you have pried an opinion out of me. I hope you feel like a winner.:D

As far as being serious,toungeouttoungeouttoungeout right back at you.:D:D

[jfseaman]

I feel like a wiener so I'm going to warm up a hot dog with some mustard and pickle relish.

If we agree so much then there's no point debating and even less arguing.

If you don't think we agree then I didn't write what I thought I wrote and even worse I probably didn't think what I wrote that I thought.

Back to the topic.

Since emotions, human or bird, shouldn't enter into the argument of whether to release an imprint or not and science and nature could give a rats, then I guess it's up to how the human responsible and feels about releasing an imprint.

It's a lovely afternoon and I have imprints to feed.:D
Jeff,

I rarely try to "win" in a conversation. I don't really like debates. If I was trying to make a point, it would be that, even after a lot of experience I have no way of knowing with any degree of accuracy just what goes on in the mind of a bird, another person, or, a lot of the time, myself.

If you want my best guess, I would have to say that I suspect that many animals, including birds, are aware, do experience emotions, and even formulate and carry out short term plans. As far as instinct goes, I don't think that you can always separate instinct from other thought processes. I think that animals, including humans, are driven by instinct and use whatever logic they poses to satisfy those drives. I have never seen a bird do algebra, but I have known quite a few humans who could not do algebra. I could be wrong about any of this.

There, you have pried an opinion out of me. I hope you feel like a winner.:D

As far as being serious,toungeouttoungeouttoungeout right back at you.:D:D

[chamokane]

I feel like a wiener so I'm going to warm up a hot dog with some mustard and pickle relish.

If we agree so much then there's no point debating and even less arguing.

If you don't think we agree then I didn't write what I thought I wrote and even worse I probably didn't think what I wrote that I thought.

Back to the topic.

Since emotions, human or bird, shouldn't enter into the argument of whether to release an imprint or not and science and nature could give a rats, then I guess it's up to how the human responsible and feels about releasing an imprint.

It's a lovely afternoon and I have imprints to feed.:D

Fred, I think you usually articulate your points of view very well. I don't think we have anything to debate, much less argue.

Have fun with your baby birds, I love imprints. Well, I love chamber birds and passage birds too.:D

[MrBill]

Fred writes:

>In manning/training, we undertake to remove the 'unknown', resulting in removal if the instinctual response and replacing it with a cognitive response.

I like what you say here, Fred, although I'm not so sure they are fearing the "unknown" during the manning process, so much as they are fearing being harmed.

Not to belabor this "emotional" business, but Dave, it is my understanding that instinctual responses are unlearned, as are emotional responses. There are different degrees of emotional reponse, which can be predicated on learned behavior, such as hate, but it is still very much a physiological process taking place that cannot be denied, and is a normal unlearned reaction to certain stimuli. So, there appears to be a thin line between the two.

Personally, I think there are very few emotions that involve hawks; they can't afford it. Unlike humans, they are involved with the surviving each day in an environment that is "red it tooth and claw." So, they can't afford to become emotional beyond those few basic emotions that help to ensure their survival (like fear), particularly negative emotions like, hurt, sadness, despair, even anger. Anger can be very dibilitating, which they can't afford. I think we need to keep in mind that they are MUCH closer to nature than we are, and have been for eons--a lot longer than we have.

Bill Boni

[sevristh]

Not to belabor this "emotional" business, but Dave, it is my understanding that instinctual responses are unlearned, as are emotional responses. There are different degrees of emotional reponse, which can be predicated on learned behavior, such as hate, but it is still very much a physiological process taking place that cannot be denied, and is a normal unlearned reaction to certain stimuli. So, there appears to be a thin line between the two.

Personally, I think there are very few emotions that involve hawks; they can't afford it. Unlike humans, they are involved with the surviving each day in an environment that is "red it tooth and claw." So, they can't afford to become emotional beyond those few basic emotions that help to ensure their survival (like fear), particularly negative emotions like, hurt, sadness, despair, even anger. Anger can be very dibilitating, which they can't afford. I think we need to keep in mind that they are MUCH closer to nature than we are, and have been for eons--a lot longer than we have.

Bill Boni

I agree with most of what you've said Bill. I would say however, that some emotional responses are unlearned. I think that some of them, in humans, are definitely learned. It hearkens back to the statement that someone said about a child having an uncaring mother. This child has a good potential for turning out with issues related to being able to love. This would, on some level, be a learned behavior, would it not? A psychologist would probably say that this person is seeking out relationships that mirror the mother-child relationship that he or she experienced. And I think it is this point in particular that separates the emotions of humans from anything remotely similar in birds. This is where the 'cognitive' part of it enters in.

Glad to see some people have chosen to continue this conversation in a theoretical/hypothetical and civil manner. Granted we probably won't ever all agree, but we can definitely learn some things from different people's opinions.

[Jack]

Like most creatures, a hawk would respond to it's environment. We see it in imprints all the time. However, there are things about them that are hard wired into them through evolution. No amount of medling on our part can change that. We might be able to skirt it to some degree through manipulation, but left alone they will revert back to what is natural to them.
Pigeons, domestic quail, some chickens, have been altered to a point to where they seem unable to survive on their own, and most probably wouldn't. But evolution leaves just enough seed to revert back if they are left alone. If you can imprint, or at least change the focus of a passage raptor from it's own species to humans, then a hawk that is imprinted on humans can be reverted back to it's own species. I think that nature would see to that. Maybe not in all cases, but in some. Even in wild hawks that is about the extent of it.
Humans are afflicted with so many different emotions that it makes it difficult for them to go through life without suffering due to it. If the majority of humans were placed into the wild under survival conditions, most would perish because they would be killed by their own emotions. The survivers would be the ones that are not bound by such things. I think that they might be called sociopaths. Most people's ethics are founded upon their emotions.
Hawks being solitary creatures for the most part, and focused on survival as it were, tend to be sociopaths. They feel none of the hold back emotions that we do. They do what is necessary to survive and they have no qualms about it either. The males feed their young by raiding songbird nests and stealing the young, and they sleep well at night. And like humans, the emotions that they do have are driven by hormonal change under certain stemuli. It is hard to change what nature has instilled over millions of years of evolution simply by hand raising a hawk.

[Montucky]

i think where i would draw the line would be a really bad misprint with the worst of both worlds fear and aggression...I would let it go without thinking twice because it is clearly not happy and the handler is not happy etc. I know the misprinted coopers I flew would have loved an early release, but the misprinted falcon really liked her bathpan, her indoor shelf perch, and the protection of my dog - whome she actually had considerable trust in.

[outhawkn]

Like most creatures, a hawk would respond to it's environment. We see it in imprints all the time. However, there are things about them that are hard wired into them through evolution. No amount of medling on our part can change that. We might be able to skirt it to some degree through manipulation, but left alone they will revert back to what is natural to them.
Pigeons, domestic quail, some chickens, have been altered to a point to where they seem unable to survive on their own, and most probably wouldn't. But evolution leaves just enough seed to revert back if they are left alone. If you can imprint, or at least change the focus of a passage raptor from it's own species to humans, then a hawk that is imprinted on humans can be reverted back to it's own species. I think that nature would see to that. Maybe not in all cases, but in some. Even in wild hawks that is about the extent of it.
Humans are afflicted with so many different emotions that it makes it difficult for them to go through life without suffering due to it. If the majority of humans were placed into the wild under survival conditions, most would perish because they would be killed by their own emotions. The survivers would be the ones that are not bound by such things. I think that they might be called sociopaths. Most people's ethics are founded upon their emotions.
Hawks being solitary creatures for the most part, and focused on survival as it were, tend to be sociopaths. They feel none of the hold back emotions that we do. They do what is necessary to survive and they have no qualms about it either. The males feed their young by raiding songbird nests and stealing the young, and they sleep well at night. And like humans, the emotions that they do have are driven by hormonal change under certain stemuli. It is hard to change what nature has instilled over millions of years of evolution simply by hand raising a hawk.

Uh...most of that would be wrong.......crazyy

[Todd Brown]

What parts wrong, Bill?

I might not agree that most human survivors left in the natural enviroment would be sociopaths.....but the rest is pretty solid seems to me.

[goshawkr]

Do you fear a bear when it is attacking as an emotion or do you respond out of instinct?

Of course it could be much less cut and dried, it could be a combination of both at different levels in response to different stimuli.

I submit this: If the fear response were pure instinct, how could we ever overcome the reaction to the fear response?

I postulate that the fear response is a combination of the instinctual fear of the unknown and a cognitive reaction. In manning/training, we undertake to remove the 'unknown', resulting in removal if the instinctual response and replacing it with a cognitive response.

Your right on the money here.

We often like to think rather highly of ourselves, and discount the idea that we have any instinctive behaviors, because we are brainy animals that learn and think.

However, we are just as loaded with instinctive software as any other animal, if not more so. Instinct is the base impulsive urge to act in a particular fashion. With Humans (and all other animals) this impulsive urge forms the foundation of a behavior that is further refined by experience, memory, and thought.

The farther you climb down the evolutionary ladder, the less thought and experience will be involved in that equation, but even very dumb vertibrates learn and apply experience to their behaviors.

[hcmcelroy]

Doug,

Scattered throughout the falconry literature are references about imprinting since the 60s when Frank Bebee wrote about it in Webster's book. Imprinting differs from hawk species and even gender. It is a fleeting thing in the smaller accipiters and they will withdraw within a few days if not reinforced by both controlling weight and association. The falcons tend to imprint permanently almost like the duck which was studied in the last century. Raptors tend to imprint within certain ages like the Cooper's that imprints from about 16-20 days of age. The larger raptors normally imprint at an older age. Clouding the issue is the imprint-like behavior written by Dr. Ken Tuttle, "From Passage to Imprint". So many passage raptors tend to act like imprints after a few years of hawking. The good Dr. describes much of the behavior in "Understanding the Bird of Prey". Your question about imprinting and releasing a Cooper's or Prairie would be a simple one considering how quickly both species tends to withdraw. By the way the British have had success in natural breeding of their small accipiter the Spar. for years. Anyway an interesting topic and obviously little understood. If you want to go over the edge read Hess, "Imprinting". He covers the topic in hundreds of pages.

Harry.

[hcmcelroy]

Doug,

Damn it I forgot to include Steve Layman...

The modern guru on the imprint is Steve Layman. Give him a call he loves to review his work with the imprint and can tell you about his bare hand feeding of acipiters while hand raising and he will explain withdrawal in detail. He is sure to have an opinion about releasing the imprint.

Harry.

Harry.

[mainefalconer]

Good point Harry,.... Steve's opinion is that you CAN successfully and responsibly release imprints.

[hcmcelroy]

Scott,

Congratulations in the NAFA election. It must be a complex position these days.

Yes, I am in full agreement with Steve about selective releasing of imprints. During the 60s a friend's imprinted Cooper's escaped him just as it was becoming hard penned. It ended up on the far side of Tucson at a zoo where it lived for the entire season. It avoided all our attempts to trap. Over the years I've seen many imprinted raptors of all sorts that have escaped and lived in the wild. Of course some imprints would not adjust and would cause problems but Fred's opinion is a good one we need not be our brother's keeper.

Harry.

[goshawkr]

Fred's opinion is a good one we need not be our brother's keeper.

Harry,

I have learned that you are a wise old coot who should be listened to.

Howerver, you leave me to wonder... who will keep my brother if not I??

BTW - "Passage into Imprint" was written by Layman. Its reviewing observations about passage birds that displayed imprint behavior, and described ways to trap, handle and train a passage bird so they were as tame as an imprint.

[hcmcelroy]

Geoff,

Sorry I must have gotten the title wrong. Dr.Ken Tuttle has flown prairies for some years and wrote much the same thing about the flying of prairies in Utah. Now I'm wondering about the title of his article. I clearly do not want to take anything from Steve's good work.
By the way I flew a passage female Cooper's for 5 years that behaved much like an imprint. An old falconer experienced with the Cooper's and one of his hawking friends went hunting with me one afternoon and when I removed the hood we were all standing to the rear of the horse trailer. The dogs were at our feet smelling something and instead of flying off like a good passager the hawk dropped down to the ground to see what the dogs were doing. With this the old boy blurted out, "Now let me get this straight I thought you said this was a passage!"

Harry.

[goshawkr]

Geoff,

Sorry I must have gotten the title wrong. Dr.Ken Tuttle has flown prairies for some years and wrote much the same thing about the flying of prairies in Utah. Now I'm wondering about the title of his article. I clearly do not want to take anything from Steve's good work.
By the way I flew a passage female Cooper's for 5 years that behaved much like an imprint. An old falconer experienced with the Cooper's and one of his hawking friends went hunting with me one afternoon and when I removed the hood we were all standing to the rear of the horse trailer. The dogs were at our feet smelling something and instead of flying off like a good passager the hawk dropped down to the ground to see what the dogs were doing. With this the old boy blurted out, "Now let me get this straight I thought you said this was a passage!"

Harry.

Hi Harry.

I am a big fan of Dr. Tuttle's writing - I hope you recall the title so I can track it down and read it.

[hcmcelroy]

I sent Ken a note so I'll let you know.

He has written a chapter on flying the merlin soon to be published in a new book that will be an unusual piece.

Harry.

[frootdog]

He has written a chapter on flying the merlin soon to be published in a new book that will be an unusual piece.

Harry.

What is this new book. Inquiring minds want to know.

[hcmcelroy]

I don't know the name but Ken's chapter is superb.

Harry.

[Ricko]

My personal belief is that if the imprinting is done 'properly' it would be improper to release the imprint.

If it got hungry it would seek a human
It would never participate in the wild gene pool
It may not have enough fear to avoid predation

Before contemplating release of a bird, look at the future of the birds welfare.

Plus, why waste it. After a successful falconry career and imprint can find useful life as a contributor to the captive bred gene pool.


Agree with all the above.

[BestBeagler]

You know, I wasn’t going to post this but how many of you people that are against releasing imprints have actually tried it to see the results? If you’re so positive it doesn’t work stick a transmitter on the bird and see if you can get it back. If someone has not released an imprint than how can they have such definite comments on the subject? Otherwise it’s just speculative and theory. I’m talking about accipiters.

[goshawks00]

Twice i have released imprints... the first one was a male coop... You know one of "rouge killers" we all hear about. I had actually come home from hunting him, was going into the house with him. I had just taken of this transmitter while walking form the truck top the porch. I opened the door and it slipped out of my hand slamming shut. It spooked and I wasn't prepared for his reaction... This was a made coop with close to a hundred kills already in mid August. That he had a full crop didn't help as he landed on the garage roof, but neither really did the pair of crows that saw him. Within a minute or two they were mobbing him and he went out of site... For the next two months I looked and looked for him.. I never found him but did have 5-6 calls from people that had him on their deck, in their garage, once a cop even had him on his fist before he bated and pulled free. We are in a small town and I have no doubt it was him as he was probably the coop to ever wear dayglo pink jesses. Eventually the call stopped and I never heard any more about him. The most interesting thing about it was he a) remained calm through out it, and b) the longer he was gone the further he was spotted away from down town ( which is where I lived at the time)
The other was Schmiddty my now 18 year old gos. I lost her from my back yard , as I was lowering her weight. She was 3 at the time and fat being 30 grams over her highest hunting weight when i lost her. Fast forward a month to the day and she came to a lure with 5 foot of where I lost her. Exactly on her high hunting weight.

[BestBeagler]

Twice i have released imprints... the first one was a male coop... You know one of "rouge killers" we all hear about. I had actually come home from hunting him, was going into the house with him. I had just taken of this transmitter while walking form the truck top the porch. I opened the door and it slipped out of my hand slamming shut. It spooked and I wasn't prepared for his reaction... This was a made coop with close to a hundred kills already in mid August. That he had a full crop didn't help as he landed on the garage roof, but neither really did the pair of crows that saw him. Within a minute or two they were mobbing him and he went out of site... For the next two months I looked and looked for him.. I never found him but did have 5-6 calls from people that had him on their deck, in their garage, once a cop even had him on his fist before he bated and pulled free. We are in a small town and I have no doubt it was him as he was probably the coop to ever wear dayglo pink jesses. Eventually the call stopped and I never heard any more about him. The most interesting thing about it was he a) remained calm through out it, and b) the longer he was gone the further he was spotted away from down town ( which is where I lived at the time)
The other was Schmiddty my now 18 year old gos. I lost her from my back yard , as I was lowering her weight. She was 3 at the time and fat being 30 grams over her highest hunting weight when i lost her. Fast forward a month to the day and she came to a lure with 5 foot of where I lost her. Exactly on her high hunting weight.

What if you had in mind to release those two birds on purpose and fattened them up and gave them a reason to fear people would that make a difference do you think in them being so willing to except people?

[goshawks00]

What if you had in mind to release those two birds on purpose and fattened them up and gave them a reason to fear people would that make a difference do you think in them being so willing to except people?

I'm not sure what you mean Isaac. Except them or accept them?

In both those birds situations they were well able to feed themselves, so I don't think there would have been any negative issues with humans. I also think timing is very important if you are going to release them, that and or location. It was my habit for 6-7 years to pull an sharpie in the summer, hawk it and then release it in the fall, usually around mid Nov. Most of the game they would have been hunting was long gone by then, and because of this they were released further down south somewhere.

I was fortunate enough to have drivers at work that were long haulers, and they would go overnight and release them in the morning. Those that I kept, I hung on to until I started seeing baby birds, usually in late May. In both situations they had plenty of natural game to hunt and were in peak physical condition before release.
I'm not sure if that answered your question,but it is I hope a better explanation of how/when I did it.

[BestBeagler]

I meant accept. For instance, do you remember telling me of the rehaber that had young RT's that she scared so that when it came time to release they were wary of humans? Im talking about that kind of thing. Basically something thats humane but would ruin a bird for falconry or cause you to have headaches that would take a lot of work sorting through.