Imprinting a Harris Hawk

[robruger1]

In a week I'll be receiving a young HH that I will be imprinting. Long story but this needs to be done as this bird cannot be put back with the parents, don't ask. It was hatched this last Thursday. I will probably be picking it up next Monday. Just looking for some advice on things to avoid besides the obvious. I imprinted a female prairie that turned out quite well mannered so I am familiar with the basics. Just looking for maybe some species specific things to avoid. Any input would be greatly appreciated except for, don't do it, why can't it be put back etc etc. Thanks folks!

[TiercelR]

Hi Rob, but if you choose do not imprint at all your bay-winged hawk by isolating the raptor in a mews and useing a chute for to give it their food ??

It is only a thought, but do it so can have a chance of to dimish a screamer at the end.

HH are too smart raptors as chicks, and their social manners can be a different thing than with the solitary manners of the falcons.

[robruger1]

I had thought about once the HH fledges and can get from perch to perch in the mews to cover the windows leaving only the skylight and then do the auto cat feeder thing only going in at night in the dark and setting to open the next morning while I was gone. Also dropping live quail, rats, young rabbits through a chute.

[Jimmy]

Rob, any chance you can let another set of parents foster it?

[robruger1]

Rob, any chance you can let another set of parents foster it?

Not anyone near me....... Its a difficult situation, imprinting this bird myself, believe it or not is in the birds best interest. Not something I can really talk about on an open forum.

[Jimmy]

Best of luck with it, Rob. If you hit the lottery, ship him to me and I'll throw him in with mine for ya. I have some the same age.

[kimmerar]

Best of luck with it, Rob. If you hit the lottery, ship him to me and I'll throw him in with mine for ya. I have some the same age.

I would jump on that offer!!

[chamokane]

I would jump on that offer!!

Me to.

[robruger1]

thanks for the offer Jimmy. I'm gonna do some checking around locally to see if I can find someone a little closer. it just sucks because I already paid for the bird and since I'm imprinting hes gonna provide me with food for it but if I send it off I'll have the cost of shipping two ways plus food. I could damn near buy another hawk. I have a week to make up my mind. during that time I'm going to be researching harris imprinting, so I'd still love some feedback from anyone who's done it.

[Coopergirl]

Why don't you puppet rear him while he is little? Then once he is large enough, rig a chute system in a box with a clear front that faces another Harris.
Let him see the other bird eating for a few, then drop food down the chute from behind. This is the method I've used on a lot of eyas accipiters and falcons when I do not want an imprint but have to raise an eyas.

[Jimmy]

Nothing wrong with imprinting him, Rob. The biggest downside to that would be if you plan to cast fly him later. You might encounter problems there. You're also likely to encounter problems when he becomes sexually mature. Having said that, I saw an imprinted male a couple of years ago that was a fine bird. The falconer said he imprinted him just like he imprints his coops'. The bird turned out fantastic. The falconers in Mexico still imprint HH's a lot, so that's a good place to search for info. Maybe Roberto can help there.

[jfseaman]

thanks for the offer Jimmy. I'm gonna do some checking around locally to see if I can find someone a little closer. it just sucks because I already paid for the bird and since I'm imprinting hes gonna provide me with food for it but if I send it off I'll have the cost of shipping two ways plus food. I could damn near buy another hawk. I have a week to make up my mind. during that time I'm going to be researching harris imprinting, so I'd still love some feedback from anyone who's done it.
I'm checking around to see if there is someone in a reasonable distance that can foster it.

I've only been around them, never raised one.

In discussions with owners, there are issues:

Possible aggression, what to you ask, anything, dogs or a specific dog, cats or a specific cat, people or a specific person, children or a specific child. The aggression problems seem to manifest at any time.

Possible noise, not saying it will happen or at what level but it could be really bad.

It does not know it's a harris hawk. I've been told, most likely it will not fly with other birds and the best scenario is that she will ignore other birds, the worst is that she will try to kill them.

I believe in the puppet idea. haill However as a social bird I worry about behavioral manifestations with a complete lack of contact.

The only person I know who has done it is George Bristol. You can find him by searching for 'Bee Busters San Francisco'. His bird is pretty good on all fronts. He is a very nice person, comes off a little grumpy but stick to your guns and you may get some good stuff from him.

Either way, good luck. If there's anything I can do please let me know. If George dises you on it, I'm more than happy to call and plead your case to him.

[robruger1]

Nothing wrong with imprinting him, Rob. The biggest downside to that would be if you plan to cast fly him later. You might encounter problems there. You're also likely to encounter problems when he becomes sexually mature. Having said that, I saw an imprinted male a couple of years ago that was a fine bird. The falconer said he imprinted him just like he imprints his coops'. The bird turned out fantastic. The falconers in Mexico still imprint HH's a lot, so that's a good place to search for info. Maybe Roberto can help there.

that's not an issue. I don't fly with the few local HH'ers. I prefer by myself anyway.

[robruger1]

Wow! what a response I've received by pm from several members helping me find places to foster my bird. this NAFEX community is incredible. I have many good options now. while I weigh out my options, I'd like to continue the imprinting discussion as I haven't ruled that out yet. thanks folks you're awesome!

[goshawkr]

Nothing wrong with imprinting him, Rob. The biggest downside to that would be if you plan to cast fly him later. You might encounter problems there. You're also likely to encounter problems when he becomes sexually mature. Having said that, I saw an imprinted male a couple of years ago that was a fine bird. The falconer said he imprinted him just like he imprints his coops'. The bird turned out fantastic. The falconers in Mexico still imprint HH's a lot, so that's a good place to search for info. Maybe Roberto can help there.

Thats good to hear.

I was going to offer some comments completely counter to that.

When I was practicing falconry in Utah in the early 90s the guys I ran around with were still dealing with the last of their imprinted Harris' hawks from the 80s before people realized that naturally imprinted Harris' hawks were tame and easy going enough that they didnt need to imprint them on people.

There was still one of the monsters alive when I got involved with these guys, but I heard of others (and they were mostly the same). She was a real beast. She HATED everyone but her handler - to the extent that she would try to tear the bars off the mew so she could get out to attack you. She also was fond of acting pleasant so you'd come close to get a look at her and she would have a shot at getting ahold of you. She regularly attacked dogs, and her handler was betting that her death would be met by latching onto a german shephard sized dog that actually fought back instead of panicing (she bound to several that of his neighbors large dogs).

I am sure an imprinted Harris' hawk can turn out to be wonderful, but having met "the bitch", If I were in your place I would tell the breeder that I didnt sign up for that, and get my money back if possible. If getting my money back were not possible, I'd cut my losses and move on. At this point, all you have invested is a little cash - sad and calous as it is, the hawk is nothing to you at this point.

Funny I guess that I should think that - I love imprint goshawks.

I guess it has something to with the impression that a hawk that is pure evil left on a budding apprentice.

[keitht]

When Harris hawks were first "discovered" many years ago, everybody wanted one but few could get them. I had the chance to obtain a less than 2 week old female. I jumped at the chance. It was raised as an imprint which was the only option I had at the time. I flew her for a little over 20 years. (She is pictured in the NAFA publication, A Bond With the Wild.) Half of those years I flew her in a cast with another female. For some time I added a tiercel to the mix.

No one in Missouri had Harris hawks in those early years so I flew her with others red-tails. The redtails would not mess with her and gave her space. When Harris hawks became common, she flew with "flocks" of other Harris hawks.

She was never as friendly on the kill as my second female that was parent raised. But all in all, she was the finest bird I ever flew. She routinely took over 200 rabbits and jacks a year.

I'd prefer a parent raised bird, but I also know what a great bird an imprint can become.

[robruger1]

good to hear keith. would you mind sharing the details on your imprinting method with this bird?

[Jimmy]

If I were in your place I would tell the breeder that I didnt sign up for that, and get my money back if possible. If getting my money back were not possible, I'd cut my losses and move on. At this point, all you have invested is a little cash - sad and calous as it is, the hawk is nothing to you at this point.


I agree with this. If I paid for a chamber raised bird, that's what I would expect. Otherwise, I'd expect the price to be cut in half......

And funny Keith mentions flying them with redtails. Most people today would think you're nuts for doing that, but that was done quite a bit. I've talked to several people that used to do that.

[sevristh]

And funny Keith mentions flying them with redtails. Most people today would think you're nuts for doing that, but that was done quite a bit. I've talked to several people that used to do that.

Doesn't the obvious question there become "Then why did they stop?" Any ideas on this?confusedd

[Jimmy]

Not everyone has quit doing it.... There's a guy in Virginia still doing it, though his name escapes me right now.

[robruger1]

there are circumstances involved that I won't air on open forum. it is this or nothing this year. I've waited for two years for my bird to be produced, now its here, can't guarantee one will be available next year. you live, you learn. now its move on empty handed or try to do something with what's been offered.... I'm taking what I can get and going to try to make the best of it.

[goshawkr]

And funny Keith mentions flying them with redtails. Most people today would think you're nuts for doing that, but that was done quite a bit. I've talked to several people that used to do that.

I have never done it, but I know some who have. It works about as well as flying redtails in a cast - which I have done - dicey, but quite possible.

[goshawkr]

there are circumstances involved that I won't air on open forum. it is this or nothing this year. I've waited for two years for my bird to be produced, now its here, can't guarantee one will be available next year. you live, you learn. now its move on empty handed or try to do something with what's been offered.... I'm taking what I can get and going to try to make the best of it.

Rob,

We certainly dont know whtat those cicumstances are. At the end of the day, its your time (and eyes :eek: ) that are being put at risk.

Good luck, with whatever you decide.

[hcmcelroy]

Rob,

I've flown the HH since the 60's and seen a few that were mal imprinted. There is no telling how they will turn out but consider it may attack children, adults, dogs, cats and other HH to name a few. Many are only moderately dangerous until sexually mature and then begin to attack the falconer.

Contact Jennifer Coulson and listen to what she will say. She breeds them has a PhD and is a charming falconer.

Harry.

[FredFogg]

The only person I know who has done it is George Bristol. You can find him by searching for 'Bee Busters San Francisco'. His bird is pretty good on all fronts. He is a very nice person, comes off a little grumpy but stick to your guns and you may get some good stuff from him.



I saw his HH foot him in the face at the AFC meet a couple years ago, so take from that what you may! LOL :D

[jfseaman]

I saw his HH foot him in the face at the AFC meet a couple years ago, so take from that what you may! LOL :D

Yeah., that happens too.

[AK Rev]

it may attack children, adults, dogs, cats and other HH to name a few. Many are only moderately dangerous until sexually mature and then begin to attack the falconer.

Not much left off of that list! Your diesel truck may be next...

[keitht]

The reason I quit flying my Harris with Redtails was because eventually other people acquired Harris Hawks and it was just natural to fly with them. The Harris hawk was always pushy around the Redtails and if the notion took them, they would harass them and push them off their choice perches. The Redtail didn't make a habit of standing their ground and usually stayed clear of the Harris. Of coarse there was never any cooperation between the birds, but then again, there usually isn't now, even with groups of Harris flying together. Every bird is usually in the game for itself.

In the 60's it was not uncommon to see different species being flown together. I remember like it was yesterday when three of us were walking a field and a rabbit flushed. A Redtail, a Female gos and a female coops all were in hot pursuit of the rabbit. The winner was the goshawk. Something that I would never do now.

[TiercelR]

Nothing wrong with imprinting him, Rob. The biggest downside to that would be if you plan to cast fly him later. You might encounter problems there. You're also likely to encounter problems when he becomes sexually mature. Having said that, I saw an imprinted male a couple of years ago that was a fine bird. The falconer said he imprinted him just like he imprints his coops'. The bird turned out fantastic. The falconers in Mexico still imprint HH's a lot, so that's a good place to search for info. Maybe Roberto can help there.
Hi Jimmy, yes thats true, in mexico the most of the bay-winged-hawk´s falconers do imprint theirs, but the most of them do something that, without fear of to say it wrong, it can be named with the clear term of the "the-method-of-the-mexican´s-chaotic-imprinting-of-raptors" unfortunatelly doe to the ignorance by their lack of a better information available for to do it a some better, or worst, for to be too lazy for to apply a reasonable plan with the enough discipline for to obtain (at the possible) a true trained hawk with "good" manners.

Only the less of they do the imprinting "following" a previous defined plan:)

That result, the most of the time, in screamers and very aggressive raptors towards any creature in their nearest, including sometimes their falconer itselvesconfusedd

The most experienced mexican falconers ever prefer the passage bay-winged hawk (early or late passage) over the eyass on any situation, avoiding at all the possible the eyasses due to the risk of imprinting them if something goes wrong. Thanks, regards.

[chamokane]

I think I'm going to sell my sissy falcons and imprint a big female HH, and get me a Mexican fighting bull to ride when I'm flying her.

[Jimmy]

What happens when she takes the bull?

[sevristh]

What happens when she takes the bull?

Well, after she took the bull down, Dave would obviously have to run in and finish the prey off as quickly as possible. This being a bull, a 'squeeze' is not going to work.

This means that Dave would then have to..........[wait for it!].........




......SHOOT THE BULL!! :Dclapptoungeout

[chamokane]

If she takes the bull down, I'm gettin' the heck out of Dodge; I might be next.

[FredFogg]

What happens when she takes the bull?


Yummm, red bull and vodka! :eek: :D

[Dirthawking]

Of coarse there was never any cooperation between the birds, but then again, there usually isn't now, even with groups of Harris flying together. Every bird is usually in the game for itself.



No offense here, but you are obviously not hunting with the right Harris's hawks.

[robruger1]

So much for this being an informative thread.............

[Jimmy]

It's the internet, Rob. What do you expect? Lighten up........

[robruger1]

I was joking man, no harm.toungeout

[robruger1]

So I have been told that I have always had to learn things the hard way. Apparently nothing has changed, since I'm now leaning towards imprinting, despite everything said on this thread. The breeder has agreed to take the bird back if it becomes aggressive once mature for him to try to make hybrids with and trade me out for a chamber bird at that point. I will keep a log on here as well as possible, although I have a tendancy to let those things slip by. I will try to update at least from time to time good or bad. You guys can cheer my success or laugh at my failure. Hopefully it will be the first one of those. I think I have a program lined out that will diminish aggression. NO food association from the get go. Constant socialization with my three kids and four dogs and anyone can find to put their hands all over it. Once it fledges I will put it in the mews with the windows blocked with only the skylight for light. I will start of using the automatic cat feeder loaded with frozen food at night with the timer set to drop the then thawed food the next morning while I'm at work so the bird doesn't even associate the sounds of footsteps coming to drop food through a chute. I will rig up a box I can put live quail and rats into that will be time release or pull string opening so it will start killing all its own food on a regular basis. I've got other things in mind for later on training that I still need to work out in my mind. I will not fly to the fist, lure only. I am still interested in any advice people may have for me, besides don't do it. Thanks folks.

Oh yeah, here's a pic.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/hhbaby.jpg

[jfseaman]

That's the spirit. The only way to gain experience is to experience.haillhaillhaill

All the best and keep us up on how it goes.

[Dirthawking]

Serious question. Why heavy socialization, then total isolation? Will the bird not flip out?

[Chris L.]

Rob,
I flew an imprinted harris hawk. He was never aggressive towards me nor did he have ever try to grab me or hurt me. He did not like other birds of course. When it got closer to breeding season he would get a little more aggressive towards other people. He would hit them in the back of the head in the field. Early in the season he was fine. He was a great bird and I would fly another any day.

I try my best to not feed any of my hawks on the fist, imprinted or not. I think my best advise is to do as you are going to do and show as little food association as you can. THese birds are social by nature so you do not need to create that bond. YOu can socialize the bird with you, just not create the food bond with that.

Good luck with him. Even if he turns out bad please post about it. For those that will say I told you so, who gives a crap! Let it run off your back. I have a delete button anyway ;)

[Jimmy]

Best of luck with it, Rob. My offer still stands if you change your mind. Hell, if you want a novelty, I'll even let my redtail raise him for you...... ;-)

[FredFogg]

I agree with Chris, definitely keep on posting. If it turns out bad, it will be a great lesson for those thinking of doing the same thing. If it turns out great, then it will be a thread for others to use and they will be able to ask you questions.

One thing I think that has to be considered, one season doesn't make an imprint. You may have a fantastic bird the first year and then after the molt, it is a terror. Please keep this thread going for as long as you have the bird. We want the good, the bad, and the ugly! LOL

[robruger1]

Serious question. Why heavy socialization, then total isolation? Will the bird not flip out?

the isolation period while being given live food is to simulate a hack. it is as close to hacking as I can provide.

[jfseaman]

the isolation period while being given live food is to simulate a hack. it is as close to hacking as I can provide.
If it were me, I'd rethink this part of the program. Harris Hawks don't go through dispersal and isolation in the wild. I'd take him for 'walks' somewhere, sort of tame hack with company.

[robruger1]

"walks" where we discover live prey for its daily meal? I really think getting it killing and eating its own food is important at a very young age. even pre fledge.

[Heatherg]

Rob,
couple questions....
Are you wanting this bird to be more like a RT in its behavior or natural to HH's?
What will be your hunting style?
I guess I am missing something here....HH's are social...just like everyone else has said....you can be social and not have the food association it does work...but I cant for the life of me understand why you would do "EXTREME" socialization and the isolate the bird....if anything you are going to create a bird that is more aggressive and tuned into you, then the opposite. I really dont agree with an imprint...but to each their own....but please consider the basic natural bahavior of HH's...they are social creatures just like we are....Isolation can only creat bad behavior. good luck with whatever you decide...i hope the bird is a success....

[robruger1]

Rob,
couple questions....
Are you wanting this bird to be more like a RT in its behavior or natural to HH's?
What will be your hunting style?
I guess I am missing something here....HH's are social...just like everyone else has said....you can be social and not have the food association it does work...but I cant for the life of me understand why you would do "EXTREME" socialization and the isolate the bird....if anything you are going to create a bird that is more aggressive and tuned into you, then the opposite. I really dont agree with an imprint...but to each their own....but please consider the basic natural bahavior of HH's...they are social creatures just like we are....Isolation can only creat bad behavior. good luck with whatever you decide...i hope the bird is a success....

I will hunt with it the same as I have Rts and HHs in the past. following from tree to tree. I don't care about it flying with other HHs. I typically hunt solo. my thought on the isolation part was that the bird would learn some self sufficiency by killing is own food daily with no one around. at the same time I want the bird well socialized with people and dogs. I want it to learn to be self sufficient early to diminish screaming and aggression, like hacking but without hacking.

[Jimmy]

I want it to learn to be self sufficient early to diminish screaming and aggression,

Easily done without the isolation. Just toss small live stuff in the mew while you're not gonna be there. Then get him out later and continue your normal routine. Go for tame walks with it, and have small live stuff pre-hidden to help him find. They need mental stimulation as they mature, especially if they're isolated and alone.

[robruger1]

Easily done without the isolation. Just toss small live stuff in the mew while you're not gonna be there. Then get him out later and continue your normal routine. Go for tame walks with it, and have small live stuff pre-hidden to help him find. They need mental stimulation as they mature, especially if they're isolated and alone.

great stuff guys, this is exactly what I wanted from this thread. thanks jimmy. I will still do the heavy socialization part right?

[Jimmy]

Rob, I would treat it exactly like you'd treat a chambered bird as much as possible. At least once it got big enough to do so. I think that any issues that come up, will be due to the lack of disiplining that usually goes on in the family group. The birds usually learn their place from the parents and it's siblings. All of that will be missing when you raise it. At about the 12 week mark and often sooner, I see a ton of this happening in the chamber. It can be anything from body postures, to outright knocking each other around. I don't know any way you could replicate this, and I think this will be what bites you in the ass somewhere down the road..... But, I could be way wrong since I've never imprinted one.

[robruger1]

Rob, I would treat it exactly like you'd treat a chambered bird as much as possible. At least once it got big enough to do so. I think that any issues that come up, will be due to the lack of disiplining that usually goes on in the family group. The birds usually learn their place from the parents and it's siblings. All of that will be missing when you raise it. At about the 12 week mark and often sooner, I see a ton of this happening in the chamber. It can be anything from body postures, to outright knocking each other around. I don't know any way you could replicate this, and I think this will be what bites you in the ass somewhere down the road..... But, I could be way wrong since I've never imprinted one.

I've actually spent some time thinking about this. We as falconers as a whole do not believe in negative reinforcement as it is detrimental to the relationship between falconer and "most" BOP. I don't think it may be a bad thing with HH's especially imprinted ones. Negative reinforcement works with dogs because they are social. If you want your dog to listen to everyone in the house not just the Alpha each member needs to make the dog understand that they are below them on the totempole from the very beginning. The easiest way to do this with a dog is to pin it to the ground on its side with a hand on its neck, not choaking, just holding until the dog lifts one leg to expose the belly. In dogs this is a sign of submission and an acknowledgement of the their lower standing. Children can do this technique with a parents help and the dog will mind the children with some time to time reinforcement. How do you do this with a harris hawk? Jimmy, I'd think you'd be the perfect person to answer this question. You've had the opportunity to see young HH's establish their pecking order, is there something the they do to show submission after an altercation. I think if you could mimic that act and have everyone person they come into contact with make them show submission you would end up with a hawk that would eventually understand its standing is below that of any and all humans. My dogs are submitted from the beginning and now they can be commanded by even a perfect stranger just as well as by me. They just figured that EVERYONE is above them. What do you folks think about this?

[chamokane]

Good luck with your project Rob. The only birds I have imprinted are a Coopers Hawk and a few falcons, not a HH. I feed them often, about six or seven times a day. I watch them and feed them not too long after the crop is empty. I avoid a really big gorge. I start out feeding with forceps, then on a plate, then on the lure. I let them eat by themselves, and no one bothers them while they are eating, but I don't hide from them. I want them to feel that they can eat with people walking around, going about their own business, and they aren't going to bother the bird's food.

I really push the socialization with people and dogs right up until time to go hunting and even after they are killing game when I can. When I'm raising an imprint is about the only time I will go to parties, but they are good and I encourage people to touch the bird and be close. Parks, campgrounds, the laundromat, the local library, parking lots, friends and relatives houses, any place where it is safe and socially acceptable to take the baby bird. I keep mature imprints on perches in my living room when they aren't out in the weathering area or hunting; they seem to appreciate the continuing socialization, and they don't get to acting strange.

They have all turned out pretty well. My female hybrid gets all excited when my neighbor comes over and she can't wait to sit in his lap for a visit, but I have seen imprint falcons get aggressive toward strangers.

The only HH I flew was parent raised, and each species and each individual bird is different so I really can't advise you with your HH. It sounds like you have a back up plan with the breeder. I look forward to reading about your experience.

Now I need to find someone with experience imprinting bulls.:D

[Jimmy]

is there something they do to show submission after an altercation.

Often times it's a simple body posture, a certain "look", or just jumping to a lower perch, etc.

[Jimmy]

Now I need to find someone with experience imprinting bulls.:D

Hope you ain't thinkin' bout collecting semen from one with a hat?? toungeout

[robruger1]

Often times it's a simple body posture, a certain "look", or just jumping to a lower perch, etc.

Doesn't sound quite as simple as getting it to raise a leg........... Well back to the drawing board.

[chamokane]

Hope you ain't thinkin' bout collecting semen from one with a hat?? toungeout

Well, I was sort of thinking about one of those really big sombreros.

[AK Rev]

Well, I was sort of thinking about one of those really big sombreros.

And a really good chiropracter!

[jfseaman]

I've actually spent some time thinking about this. We as falconers as a whole do not believe in negative reinforcement as it is detrimental to the relationship between falconer and "most" BOP. I don't think it may be a bad thing with HH's especially imprinted ones. Negative reinforcement works with dogs because they are social. If you want your dog to listen to everyone in the house not just the Alpha each member needs to make the dog understand that they are below them on the totempole from the very beginning. The easiest way to do this with a dog is to pin it to the ground on its side with a hand on its neck, not choaking, just holding until the dog lifts one leg to expose the belly. In dogs this is a sign of submission and an acknowledgement of the their lower standing. Children can do this technique with a parents help and the dog will mind the children with some time to time reinforcement. How do you do this with a harris hawk? Jimmy, I'd think you'd be the perfect person to answer this question. You've had the opportunity to see young HH's establish their pecking order, is there something the they do to show submission after an altercation. I think if you could mimic that act and have everyone person they come into contact with make them show submission you would end up with a hawk that would eventually understand its standing is below that of any and all humans. My dogs are submitted from the beginning and now they can be commanded by even a perfect stranger just as well as by me. They just figured that EVERYONE is above them. What do you folks think about this?


Rob, I would treat it exactly like you'd treat a chambered bird as much as possible. At least once it got big enough to do so. I think that any issues that come up, will be due to the lack of disiplining that usually goes on in the family group. The birds usually learn their place from the parents and it's siblings. All of that will be missing when you raise it. At about the 12 week mark and often sooner, I see a ton of this happening in the chamber. It can be anything from body postures, to outright knocking each other around. I don't know any way you could replicate this, and I think this will be what bites you in the ass somewhere down the road..... But, I could be way wrong since I've never imprinted one.
Wow, super addition to the topic. I want to hear more about this. clappclapp

[SadieHawk]

[QUOTE=robruger1;188911] The easiest way to do this with a dog is to pin it to the ground on its side with a hand on its neck, not choaking, just holding until the dog lifts one leg to expose the belly.

This is close to what you have to do to bald eagles. The balds will over run you if you give them one chance. (not all balds are this way, you have some calm ones also) You do have to pin them on their back and show them you are alpha. I have done this with a few balds. I have heard others doing this with red-taileds also. Just think, it is done in the wild, one bird will pin the other to the ground.

[goshawkr]

I've actually spent some time thinking about this. We as falconers as a whole do not believe in negative reinforcement as it is detrimental to the relationship between falconer and "most" BOP. I don't think it may be a bad thing with HH's especially imprinted ones. Negative reinforcement works with dogs because they are social. If you want your dog to listen to everyone in the house not just the Alpha each member needs to make the dog understand that they are below them on the totempole from the very beginning. The easiest way to do this with a dog is to pin it to the ground on its side with a hand on its neck, not choaking, just holding until the dog lifts one leg to expose the belly. In dogs this is a sign of submission and an acknowledgement of the their lower standing. Children can do this technique with a parents help and the dog will mind the children with some time to time reinforcement. How do you do this with a harris hawk? Jimmy, I'd think you'd be the perfect person to answer this question. You've had the opportunity to see young HH's establish their pecking order, is there something the they do to show submission after an altercation. I think if you could mimic that act and have everyone person they come into contact with make them show submission you would end up with a hawk that would eventually understand its standing is below that of any and all humans. My dogs are submitted from the beginning and now they can be commanded by even a perfect stranger just as well as by me. They just figured that EVERYONE is above them. What do you folks think about this?

As I have repeatedly said in other threads on this forum - ALL hawks are "social". Most of them are less social than what we are used to thinking of as social animals, but its really a question of scale (how social they are)and not one of bianary extremes (social/solitary).

Negative reinforcement is discouraged by all modern trainers - and for good reason - even with more social animals. Beating an animal into submission is not a good way to win its eager cooperation.

However, I have come to realize that it is very limiting to eliminate negative reinforcement alltogether. I dont like to expound on this much, because I dont want to encourage anyone to take a rolled up newspaper and set their hawk striaght arbitrarily. I believe that negative reinforcement should come as a last resort in most circumstances.

However, there are times when you can get the message across to a hawk with one well timed physical rebuff that would otherwise have taken much more time and effort with positive reinforcement. As an example - I had a very sweet imprint goshawk who had an annoying habit of testing to see if he could pry a tidbit off of my bare hand. I tried, in vain, to find ways to extinguish this habbit with positvie means, including using advanced Condition Reinforcer (clicker training) methods. In one weak moment, I backhanded him just as he was trying to take a chunck, and he never did it again and it didnt negatively impact our relationship.

MOST negative reinforcement with hawks should constitute removing the opportunity to hunt or get another reward (IE putting them up).

Anyway, you are right that Harris' hawks take this better than other hawks. However, that being the case, they are still hawks and they very well may decided to abandon you and your "rules" if your not careful about it. Thats the attitude that the not-as-social-as-Harris'-hawks generally take.

I used to run with a pack of excellent falconers who specialized in Harris' hawks, and I have seen them use negative reinforcement, very sparingly and very gently, to get excellent results when a hawk was acting out of line (usually to help settle disputes on a kill or to defend a dog who was being unjustly harrassed).

[goshawkr]

If it were me, I'd rethink this part of the program. Harris Hawks don't go through dispersal and isolation in the wild. I'd take him for 'walks' somewhere, sort of tame hack with company.

I know the isolation has already been discussed, and wisely pointed out to be a BAD idea.

Its not a good idea with any raptor. The "Dispersal and isolation" period in the wild is not fully a-social time period until well into what we would consider the passage time frame (if even then). The juvinile raptors encounter and interact with others of their own kind on an infrequent to frequent basis. Sometimes falconers that raise raptors in isolation chambers get lucky and sometimes they end up with a basket case.

Harris hawks, however, are never alone except in very unusal circumstances. I believe its almost certain that you will create neurotic monster this way.

I also think that giving the poor hawk nothing to look at but a skylight is also a good way to muddle its head. Hawks are not especially brainy creatures, but they do need mental stimulation. It may not seem like much to us, but at the very least watching the grass dry and the birds flutter is important to them.

[robruger1]

I know the isolation has already been discussed, and wisely pointed out to be a BAD idea.

Its not a good idea with any raptor. The "Dispersal and isolation" period in the wild is not fully a-social time period until well into what we would consider the passage time frame (if even then). The juvinile raptors encounter and interact with others of their own kind on an infrequent to frequent basis. Sometimes falconers that raise raptors in isolation chambers get lucky and sometimes they end up with a basket case.

Harris hawks, however, are never alone except in very unusal circumstances. I believe its almost certain that you will create neurotic monster this way.

I also think that giving the poor hawk nothing to look at but a skylight is also a good way to muddle its head. Hawks are not especially brainy creatures, but they do need mental stimulation. It may not seem like much to us, but at the very least watching the grass dry and the birds flutter is important to them.

I have already decided to listen to advice on this area and not do the isolation portion. This is the whole reason for this thread. Multiple heads are better than one and I'm glad people are giving their input. Keep it coming folks.

[FredFogg]

Rob, I remember seeing a video of some guys from Japan (I think) with imprinted goshawks. It showed them feeding their goshawks by hand on kills and the birds were as calm as could be. It was amazing. They would reach over and take food that the falconer cut off from the game they had just killed and take it so gently from their hand. I would love to find one of those falconers to explain their imprinting process. There are so many different ways to imprint and usually, they all contradict each other. But for me, proof is when you see the final product.

[Jimmy]

Guys overseas do that with Eagles too, Fred. All the more impressive......

[hcmcelroy]

Fred,

I watched a video by Dr. Fox of gos hunting in China. They were feeding on kills from the bare hand too. I suppose these were passage but I'm not sure.

Speaking of imprinting I read a post by Johnny (Bodarc in 2007 in NAFEX) listing his 27 or so items about how to raise accipiters. I read it twice and damned if it wasn't quite similar to what was being done in the 60's. He stated that he had raised 2 imprints and was to use the system on a 3rd. I wonder how the 3rd turned out?

Harry.

[goshawkr]

Rob, I remember seeing a video of some guys from Japan (I think) with imprinted goshawks. It showed them feeding their goshawks by hand on kills and the birds were as calm as could be. It was amazing. They would reach over and take food that the falconer cut off from the game they had just killed and take it so gently from their hand. I would love to find one of those falconers to explain their imprinting process. There are so many different ways to imprint and usually, they all contradict each other. But for me, proof is when you see the final product.

I have raised 4 imprint goshawks, and had several others as hand me down birds.

Every goshawk I have ever had is fed by hand. One of the ones I raised went sour on me due to repeated mistakes on my part, but the others were all very gentle when I handed them food. I always help them tear their meal on kill, and I always hand them tidbits with my bare hand.

The goshawk I mentioned earlier in this thread that would try to cut a tidbit for himself off of my bare hand was gentle about taking tidbits for the most part. He and I just had to work through a period where he needed to figure out that my bare hand was a source of food, and not a piece of food. :D

Several of my pals that like goshawks hand feed their imprint goshawks as well. I'd be happy to elaborate - but on a different thread. This one is about Harris' hawks.

[robruger1]

Several of my pals that like goshawks hand feed their imprint goshawks as well. I'd be happy to elaborate - but on a different thread. This one is about Harris' hawks.

Geoff- feel free, this is a learning thread and who knows, it may be over value with the harris hawks. After all I have yet to see someone post on this thread saying yes a I imprinted a Harris Hawk and here's the details about my technique. There may be something that carries over so go ahead.

[JRedig]

Fred,
Speaking of imprinting I read a post by Johnny (Bodarc in 2007 in NAFEX) listing his 27 or so items about how to raise accipiters. I read it twice and damned if it wasn't quite similar to what was being done in the 60's. He stated that he had raised 2 imprints and was to use the system on a 3rd.

http://www.nafex.net/showpost.php?p=18221&postcount=81

I remembered reading that and had trouble digging it up, figured i'd just link it to help others.

[FredFogg]

I have raised 4 imprint goshawks, and had several others as hand me down birds.

Every goshawk I have ever had is fed by hand. One of the ones I raised went sour on me due to repeated mistakes on my part, but the others were all very gentle when I handed them food. I always help them tear their meal on kill, and I always hand them tidbits with my bare hand.

The goshawk I mentioned earlier in this thread that would try to cut a tidbit for himself off of my bare hand was gentle about taking tidbits for the most part. He and I just had to work through a period where he needed to figure out that my bare hand was a source of food, and not a piece of food. :D

Several of my pals that like goshawks hand feed their imprint goshawks as well. I'd be happy to elaborate - but on a different thread. This one is about Harris' hawks.

Geoff, this is an imprinting thread, so what would you do different than what Johnny says in the link in post #70.

[hcmcelroy]

Jeoff,

Would you care to elaborate about how you hand feed gos? I've done it with imprinted aplomados and have read how Steve L does the gos but no details. I have not hid the food for imprinted accipiters but merely brought the food to them on a dish or the lure and handled them very softly as they eat with a dog present. I hear that increasing numbers of falconers hand feed imprinted gyrs and maintain the imprinting to prevent withdrawal like we do the accipiters.

Has anyone heard how Johnny's third accipiter developed in 2008?

Harry.

[rkumetz]

At the risk of having gasoline poured all over me and being torched I would like to ask a simple question: WHY? I may have missed something (old eyes)
but I cannot find a post that says why the falconer who started the thread wanted to imprint a harris' in the first place. Since even passage harris' tend
to be pretty well mannered and parent/family group raised birds tend to adapt to hanging out with humans pretty readily I can't seem to grasp why you would want imprint one. Unless you wanted to breed some sort of HH hybrids
why bother taking even a small risk of having a screaming or aggressive imprint? There just doesn't seem (in my opinion of course) a worthwhile
risk vs benefit factor to doing so with a harris' other than breeding hybrids or wanting an excessively tame flying golden retriever.

Fire extinguisher at the ready.........

[harrishawk_79]

the person who started the thread wont give the exact reason but i would assume something happend as to the parents are out of the picture but im only guessing

[rkumetz]

the person who started the thread wont give the exact reason but i would assume something happend as to the parents are out of the picture but im only guessing

In that case I would think that either the breeder or the buyer of the bird would have taken someone up on the numerous offers to foster the (presumably) parent-free bird wouldn't you think? IMO that would be the 2nd best alternative to having the bird raised by its own parents.

[harrishawk_79]

i dont know i wouldnt take the bird so if it came down to me imprinting it i would go to anothr breeder and buy what i paid for

[robruger1]

i dont know i wouldnt take the bird so if it came down to me imprinting it i would go to anothr breeder and buy what i paid for


In that case I would think that either the breeder or the buyer of the bird would have taken someone up on the numerous offers to foster the (presumably) parent-free bird wouldn't you think? IMO that would be the 2nd best alternative to having the bird raised by its own parents.

More answers could be attained by reading early posts on this thread. I did mention in them that this thread is not to talk about should vs shouldn't or anything else. There are circumstances involved, which I already explained once that will not be aired on open forum why the baby can't go back to the parents. Please allow this thread to stay on track with the hows not the whys, if you don't understand why thats ok, its not for you.

[colelkhunter]

I've actually spent some time thinking about this. We as falconers as a whole do not believe in negative reinforcement as it is detrimental to the relationship between falconer and "most" BOP. I don't think it may be a bad thing with HH's especially imprinted ones. Negative reinforcement works with dogs because they are social. If you want your dog to listen to everyone in the house not just the Alpha each member needs to make the dog understand that they are below them on the totempole from the very beginning. The easiest way to do this with a dog is to pin it to the ground on its side with a hand on its neck, not choaking, just holding until the dog lifts one leg to expose the belly. In dogs this is a sign of submission and an acknowledgement of the their lower standing. Children can do this technique with a parents help and the dog will mind the children with some time to time reinforcement. How do you do this with a harris hawk? Jimmy, I'd think you'd be the perfect person to answer this question. You've had the opportunity to see young HH's establish their pecking order, is there something the they do to show submission after an altercation. I think if you could mimic that act and have everyone person they come into contact with make them show submission you would end up with a hawk that would eventually understand its standing is below that of any and all humans. My dogs are submitted from the beginning and now they can be commanded by even a perfect stranger just as well as by me. They just figured that EVERYONE is above them. What do you folks think about this?

I have a few things to add to this for your consideration. I train K-9's for my living and most of your assumptions are correct about negative reenforcement with dogs. Sometimes a well placed negative can and will be more effective than 5 positives. Now that I have praised let me scold a little bit. When making your dog (HH) submissive to humans it is possible to accomplish a few things. One is you get the desired response that you were looking for and they comply and never give you a problem. Two, you have to reenforce this negative reenforcement on occasion when challenged. Three,(and the worst) you apply the negative reenforcement and everything goes as planned. They submit and comply with your wishes. Everything goes as planned for a good little while until ,when you least expect it , the bird decides to challenge you for leadership. If the bird succeeds in winning the altercation, I.E. he nails you in the head and you run to get stitches, you have undone instantly what was done. I have seen this happen with k-9s time and time again. This makes an animal trained in this method one to watch closely. You may never have a problem, then again when the problem arises it will be signifigant. Animals that are made to submit that are not naturally submissive, often will challenge for dominance at some point. You have to be prepared for it when it comes and deal with it appropriately. Watch your back is my advice. As predators, HH's will not want to stay submissive for long unless kept in check by you or something else.

[robruger1]

I have a few things to add to this for your consideration. I train K-9's for my living and most of your assumptions are correct about negative reenforcement with dogs. Sometimes a well placed negative can and will be more effective than 5 positives. Now that I have praised let me scold a little bit. When making your dog (HH) submissive to humans it is possible to accomplish a few things. One is you get the desired response that you were looking for and they comply and never give you a problem. Two, you have to reenforce this negative reenforcement on occasion when challenged. Three,(and the worst) you apply the negative reenforcement and everything goes as planned. They submit and comply with your wishes. Everything goes as planned for a good little while until ,when you least expect it , the bird decides to challenge you for leadership. If the bird succeeds in winning the altercation, I.E. he nails you in the head and you run to get stitches, you have undone instantly what was done. I have seen this happen with k-9s time and time again. This makes an animal trained in this method one to watch closely. You may never have a problem, then again when the problem arises it will be signifigant. Animals that are made to submit that are not naturally submissive, often will challenge for dominance at some point. You have to be prepared for it when it comes and deal with it appropriately. Watch your back is my advice. As predators, HH's will not want to stay submissive for long unless kept in check by you or something else.

Thanks, great things to keep in mind.

[colelkhunter]

I hope you keep us posted on the goings on with your charge. I am very interested in hearing how this turns out, and as others have said, don't let anyone tell you not to do something. Information gathered is good information. Even if your results are not that great, it will certainly help others.

[robruger1]

So we're ALMOST 100% sure he's a he. Thursday he will be 14 days old. He has not been able to be banded yet so I'm not picking him up until he is. Looking at probably Thursday or Friday for pick up. Both parents are really small so he should be dinky which is what I want. Both parents are of white wing lineage. The male is a son of Whitewing and the female is a granddaughter of her through another mating, so it's a half uncle/ half niece pairing. Really looking forward to picking him up and getting started.

[goshawkr]

As predators, HH's will not want to stay submissive for long unless kept in check by you or something else.

I am not a professional animal trainer - although I have the talent to be.

I'd like to clarify this a little better, and this does not just apply to predators or Harris hawks.

Brain's basic point is right on the money - but the way its phrased it leads to some limited thinking.

The [more] social animals, like dogs, harris hawks, humans, horses, etc dont follow without a reason. Sometimes that reaons is because they are bullied into submission by someone who thinks they have to knock heads around to keep their authority. But that reason could also be just beacuse they are a better leader - better at delivering resources, better at difusing conflict, better at making decisions, etc. LEAD your harris hawk and it will follow.

The concept of leadership towards my animals was slow to bubble up in my head, but once I started using that word, LEAD (instead of dominate) my interactions really improved with my hawks, my dogs, and my horses. Not to mention my kids.

[colelkhunter]

exactly correct Geoff. I get so much floating around in my head that I want to say that sometimes what I need to say gets muddy. My strong minded K-9's follow me because they know no other way. I am the dominant animal in my household. (we won't tell my wife) Challenges of dominance start small. Like was listed before, a look, a noise, something small. These are the times to re-enforce your leadership. Don't wait until it gets obvious. Look for the small challenges, they matter the most.

[chamokane]

I had a small parent raised daughter of Whitewing about twenty years ago. She had a very sweet nature toward both humans and other HHs, and was a freezer filling machine. Have fun with your bird.

I may be a poor animal trainer, but I have never had an animal that I considered to be "trained." For me, training has alway been the continuing and never ending development of the relationship between the animal and me, the development of a sense of shared goals, and the development of the skills and physical conditioning to get the job done. It's never ending and applies as much to me as it does to the animal.

[FredFogg]

So we're ALMOST 100% sure he's a he. Thursday he will be 14 days old. He has not been able to be banded yet so I'm not picking him up until he is. Looking at probably Thursday or Friday for pick up. Both parents are really small so he should be dinky which is what I want. Both parents are of white wing lineage. The male is a son of Whitewing and the female is a granddaughter of her through another mating, so it's a half uncle/ half niece pairing. Really looking forward to picking him up and getting started.

Ok, I am far from an expert here but I thought a HH should be banded at least day 8 or so. Are they going to be able to put a seamless band on it at 14 days old? And this might have been answered before as I have read this entire thread before but I can't remember and am too lazy to go read it all again but are they feeding this bird for you and imprinting it and then you are going to take over? Personally, when imprinting a bird, I want it from the get go, I don't want someone else feeding the bird or doing something I wouldn't know about. I think for folks to help you, we need to know everything that has gone on with the bird and is currently going on, because it all matters when imprinting.

Oh yeah, I have a daughter of Lola, who was the daughter of Whitewing and she isn't small by any means.

[rkumetz]

I think for folks to help you, we need to know everything that has gone on with the bird and is currently going on, because it all matters when imprinting.

If we tell you then we will need to shoot you.........frus)

[goshawkr]

Geoff, this is an imprinting thread, so what would you do different than what Johnny says in the link in post #70.


Jeoff,

Would you care to elaborate about how you hand feed gos? I've done it with imprinted aplomados and have read how Steve L does the gos but no details. I have not hid the food for imprinted accipiters but merely brought the food to them on a dish or the lure and handled them very softly as they eat with a dog present. I hear that increasing numbers of falconers hand feed imprinted gyrs and maintain the imprinting to prevent withdrawal like we do the accipiters.



I am working on responding to these two posts and spilling my secrets - such as they are.

[FredFogg]

I am working on responding to these two posts and spilling my secrets - such as they are.

Geoff, if you just want to email me your secrets rather than post on a thread, I understand. We wouldn't want folks to know all the secrets before the book comes out! LOL :D

[goshawkr]

Geoff, if you just want to email me your secrets rather than post on a thread, I understand. We wouldn't want folks to know all the secrets before the book comes out! LOL :D

:D

Actually, I like the strategy that McDermott used better - build an audience by writing articles (or posting online).

Although so many people have put out crap books lately that its really put me off from the idea. And if I were involved with a book, it would actually be as a contributing author with Layman when he gets around to writting one. I keep trying to talk him into it, but its really hard to get him to focus.

Besides, I am not good enough to justify a book. Although that hasnt stopped a lot of the authors who have written falconry books in the last 15 years. (oops - did I say that out loud....:eek: )

[robruger1]

Ok, I am far from an expert here but I thought a HH should be banded at least day 8 or so. Are they going to be able to put a seamless band on it at 14 days old? And this might have been answered before as I have read this entire thread before but I can't remember and am too lazy to go read it all again but are they feeding this bird for you and imprinting it and then you are going to take over? Personally, when imprinting a bird, I want it from the get go, I don't want someone else feeding the bird or doing something I wouldn't know about. I think for folks to help you, we need to know everything that has gone on with the bird and is currently going on, because it all matters when imprinting.

Oh yeah, I have a daughter of Lola, who was the daughter of Whitewing and she isn't small by any means.

He told me that the band won't stay on until day 14 because he is small.
He told me that he can't give me the bird until it is banded. But from what I have heard/read, the imprinting process doesn't start until day 15 or so anyway.

[goshawkr]

But from what I have heard/read, the imprinting process doesn't start until day 15 or so anyway.

Most of what you have read and heard about the imprinting process as it pertains to raptors is wrong. The idea of imprinting has been horrible misconstrued, particularly by falconers.

In precocial birds, like ducks and chickens and quail and grouse, the model works in that the chicks mentally latch onto the first large moving object they see, and regard it as "parent."

There has been a lot of difficulty taking that model and carrying it over to altricial species, like raptors. Its most definately not an instantaneous in raptors, and my experience is that the idea of imprinting as a one way process that happens during a certain time of a raptors life should be tossed out.

If you take a very young chick (14 days counts) and raise it, you'll definately get what everyone refers to when they call it an imprint. Same for one that is quite a bit older.

[goshawkr]

Geoff, this is an imprinting thread, so what would you do different than what Johnny says in the link in post #70.

I do quite a bit different - but since the focus of the recent discussion was on hand feeding an imprint, I'll target that.

Before I begin, I want to establish something.


Most of the writing and thinking that is done regarding hand raised baby hawks is largely flawed. The thinking usually centers exclusively on looking at the parent/child social dynamics of the hawk and modeling the human/hawk interaction on that alone. What is equally important to examine is the sibling/sibling dynamics. These social dynamics are where the aggression to the falconer usually come from.


Most hawks are not extremely social (Harris’ hawks being a noted exception), and their set of social behaviors are a little muted compared to other animals that we are used to dealing with, although its important to remember there still ARE social behaviors even with super-non-social hawks like accipiters.

These less social hawks still enjoy the company of others of their own kind, and seek it out for no reason other than to have company. Although they really crave and need periods of solitude as well.


Its also important to bear in mind that hawks have deeply entrenched instinctive frameworks for their social behaviors with other hawks, but no instinctive software for their social interactions with a human falconer (yet - that will be coming as domestication completes). So the hawk is forced to plug their relationship with us into the social structures they are capable of understanding - mate/rival/parent/sibling/offspring (in the case of Harris' hawks you can also add pack-mate). Thats a simplified list, but not by much. The trick is to keep yourself plugged into the social framework in a way that is mutually positive. And its important to understand, once the hawk views you a certain way your position is NOT cemented - 1 day, or 5 seconds later they may view you in a completely different manner.

Anyway, back to my point – the aggression that we see in hand raised hawks is not a typical behavior directed at the parents, although sometimes that is the case, it’s a typical behavior directed at a sibling and/or competitor for resources (food). Sometimes a lone chick may be despirate enough for food that they will view their parent as a competitor, but usually the attacking that goes on is because they feel a need to get the food from the parent before their rivals (siblings) get it or because they want to steal it from their siblings.

There are two key things here to apply to the human-hawk interaction to keep things pleasant with your hand raised baby. A lot of this will apply to any hawk, Harris’ hawks included, but I don’t really get Harris’ hawks (and the feeling is mutual because even my own Harris’ hawk that I have had for 11 years will at best tolerate me.) 1) be very cautious about your interactions, particularly involving food, whenever the hawk is desperate for food (like when first cut down to weight, or if “sharpened” to get them on track for some reason later on) and 2) be extremely careful that you are never viewed as competition for food. This of course makes trading off of game a delicate dance when they start catching stuff.

This actually applies wether or not you have directly associated yourself with food, as I do, or if you use some method to try and hide the association of food (like the McDermott method with accipiters). I actually think the "hide-the-food-association" methods are much more risky because your not actively examining the social dynamics as you interact with the hawk, and this is born out by all the mysterious failures that occur in those methods.

Now that I have laid the foundation….on to answering the actual question:

I dont use forceps, ever. I feed young hawks and “polite” older hawks from my fingertips. Hawks are mega gentle in taking food until they are well past the age when they can feed themselves, and even then they are polite when “momma” feeds them (even as adults). Using forceps is largely rooted in the mistaken notion that a very young hawk will try to eat your fingers if they see you feeding them. That can happen with an older hawk if your not careful about the food association and the relationship, but if your just using forceps until they are old enough to tear their own food and then stop hand feeding they wont regard your fingers as food sources.

The key to being able to feed older hawks from your fingertips is to be careful reading the body language of the hawk. If they are acting aggressive about getting the food, I hold it out of range until they calm down. If they start acting aggressive as I am bringing it up to them after they have calmed down, I take it back away from them.

They learn very quickly that they key to getting the food to approach is to be polite. Its important to point out that they have some very strong instinctive software that is telling them to get what they want by fighting for it, and its very important to watch out for little slips in behavior along those lines. Being polite to get their food is not in their nature, but can be molded through training.

If they are really keyed up, there are some slick ways to get it to them anyway (this is never really a problem with young eyasses). The best of these is to hid the tidbit in the palm of my fist, and bring it down to them from above and open my hand right in front of their beak. Contrary to popular wisdom, eyass DO NOT attack the parent who is feeding them (older chicks do sometimes attack the parent bringing in food, but not a parent who is tearing apart food). The instincts to gently pluck the food from the beak of the parent remain active through their entire life, and if you bring the food to the hawk similar to the way a mother feeds her chick it is very rare that they will misbehave.

Another thing to keep in mind with the overall strategy is that the smaller the chunk of meat is, the less a hawk is willing to risk fighting for it. Translated this means that you will get much more onery behavior when handing a sharp hawk a whole quail or rabbit leg than when you are handing the hawk a tiny tidbit. My first goshawk will usually take a tidbit from my fingertips so gently that I dont even detect the touch of her beak, but even with her I am cautious when she is on my glove and I want to hand her a rabbit leg (holding the jesses tight to the glove helps with this).

I dont garnish the lure - ever. My hawks take the lure, and foot it, and vent their excited aggression on it and then they step to my garnished glove to eat. Same with game. When they catch something, I dispatch it and then they are traded off to the glove that is garnished with their meat – usually with a leg from what they just caught. It takes a little slight of hand, but its not tough to do.

The fist is their plucking post until they go into the mew for the molt. As they eat on the fist, I help them tear at the food and help them eat it. I really don’t know, yet, how to describe how to pull that off without getting grabbed. I am sure a lot of what I am doing when I do that is intuitive and stuff I am completely unaware of.

Since the lure is never garnished, I don’t ever have problems approaching a hawk on the lure. But sometimes it can be dicey to approach a hawk on game without them viewing you as competition to be driven off. Goshawks, in particular, can be very fierce about that.

[MrBill]

Geoff writes:

>The concept of leadership towards my animals was slow to bubble up in my head, but once I started using that word, LEAD (instead of dominate) my interactions really improved with my hawks, my dogs, and my horses. Not to mention my kids.

I realize this is a thread about imprinting HH's, but it would be nice to now how "leadership" improved you relationship with your hawks. Thanks.

Bill Boni

[goshawkr]

I do quite a bit different - but since the focus of the recent discussion was on hand feeding an imprint, I'll target that.

Before I begin, I want to establish something.


Most of the writing and thinking that is done regarding hand raised baby hawks is largely flawed. The thinking usually centers exclusively on looking at the parent/child social dynamics of the hawk and modeling the human/hawk interaction on that alone. What is equally important to examine is the sibling/sibling dynamics. These social dynamics are where the aggression to the falconer usually come from.


Most hawks are not extremely social (Harris’ hawks being a noted exception), and their set of social behaviors are a little muted compared to other animals that we are used to dealing with, although its important to remember there still ARE social behaviors even with super-non-social hawks like accipiters.

These less social hawks still enjoy the company of others of their own kind, and seek it out for no reason other than to have company. Although they really crave and need periods of solitude as well.


Its also important to bear in mind that hawks have deeply entrenched instinctive frameworks for their social behaviors with other hawks, but no instinctive software for their social interactions with a human falconer (yet - that will be coming as domestication completes). So the hawk is forced to plug their relationship with us into the social structures they are capable of understanding - mate/rival/parent/sibling/offspring (in the case of Harris' hawks you can also add pack-mate). Thats a simplified list, but not by much. The trick is to keep yourself plugged into the social framework in a way that is mutually positive. And its important to understand, once the hawk views you a certain way your position is NOT cemented - 1 day, or 5 seconds later they may view you in a completely different manner.

Anyway, back to my point – the aggression that we see in hand raised hawks is not a typical behavior directed at the parents, although sometimes that is the case, it’s a typical behavior directed at a sibling and/or competitor for resources (food). Sometimes a lone chick may be despirate enough for food that they will view their parent as a competitor, but usually the attacking that goes on is because they feel a need to get the food from the parent before their rivals (siblings) get it or because they want to steal it from their siblings.

There are two key things here to apply to the human-hawk interaction to keep things pleasant with your hand raised baby. A lot of this will apply to any hawk, Harris’ hawks included, but I don’t really get Harris’ hawks (and the feeling is mutual because even my own Harris’ hawk that I have had for 11 years will at best tolerate me.) 1) be very cautious about your interactions, particularly involving food, whenever the hawk is desperate for food (like when first cut down to weight, or if “sharpened” to get them on track for some reason later on) and 2) be extremely careful that you are never viewed as competition for food. This of course makes trading off of game a delicate dance when they start catching stuff.

This actually applies wether or not you have directly associated yourself with food, as I do, or if you use some method to try and hide the association of food (like the McDermott method with accipiters). I actually think the "hide-the-food-association" methods are much more risky because your not actively examining the social dynamics as you interact with the hawk, and this is born out by all the mysterious failures that occur in those methods.

Now that I have laid the foundation….on to answering the actual question:

I dont use forceps, ever. I feed young hawks and “polite” older hawks from my fingertips. Hawks are mega gentle in taking food until they are well past the age when they can feed themselves, and even then they are polite when “momma” feeds them (even as adults). Using forceps is largely rooted in the mistaken notion that a very young hawk will try to eat your fingers if they see you feeding them. That can happen with an older hawk if your not careful about the food association and the relationship, but if your just using forceps until they are old enough to tear their own food and then stop hand feeding they wont regard your fingers as food sources.

The key to being able to feed older hawks from your fingertips is to be careful reading the body language of the hawk. If they are acting aggressive about getting the food, I hold it out of range until they calm down. If they start acting aggressive as I am bringing it up to them after they have calmed down, I take it back away from them.

They learn very quickly that they key to getting the food to approach is to be polite. Its important to point out that they have some very strong instinctive software that is telling them to get what they want by fighting for it, and its very important to watch out for little slips in behavior along those lines. Being polite to get their food is not in their nature, but can be molded through training.

If they are really keyed up, there are some slick ways to get it to them anyway (this is never really a problem with young eyasses). The best of these is to hid the tidbit in the palm of my fist, and bring it down to them from above and open my hand right in front of their beak. Contrary to popular wisdom, eyass DO NOT attack the parent who is feeding them (older chicks do sometimes attack the parent bringing in food, but not a parent who is tearing apart food). The instincts to gently pluck the food from the beak of the parent remain active through their entire life, and if you bring the food to the hawk similar to the way a mother feeds her chick it is very rare that they will misbehave.

Another thing to keep in mind with the overall strategy is that the smaller the chunk of meat is, the less a hawk is willing to risk fighting for it. Translated this means that you will get much more onery behavior when handing a sharp hawk a whole quail or rabbit leg than when you are handing the hawk a tiny tidbit. My first goshawk will usually take a tidbit from my fingertips so gently that I dont even detect the touch of her beak, but even with her I am cautious when she is on my glove and I want to hand her a rabbit leg (holding the jesses tight to the glove helps with this).

I dont garnish the lure - ever. My hawks take the lure, and foot it, and vent their excited aggression on it and then they step to my garnished glove to eat. Same with game. When they catch something, I dispatch it and then they are traded off to the glove that is garnished with their meat – usually with a leg from what they just caught. It takes a little slight of hand, but its not tough to do.

The fist is their plucking post until they go into the mew for the molt. As they eat on the fist, I help them tear at the food and help them eat it. I really don’t know, yet, how to describe how to pull that off without getting grabbed. I am sure a lot of what I am doing when I do that is intuitive and stuff I am completely unaware of.

Since the lure is never garnished, I don’t ever have problems approaching a hawk on the lure. But sometimes it can be dicey to approach a hawk on game without them viewing you as competition to be driven off. Goshawks, in particular, can be very fierce about that.

All that time and effort carefully drafting and redrafting this post over a few days, and I still managed to leave something out... figures. :D

Another key piece to my method was loosely alluded to in what I already wrote. I use a LOT of Operant Conditioning. Its actually how I get a hawk wed to the lure without ever garnishing it with so much as a tidbit. One magical thing about OC is that its an inbuilt tool for programming an animals brain, and if I see things going sour I can use it to turn them around (provided I am smart enough to catch it which is a big if, and provided I am motivated enough to fix it instead of just dealing with it.)

[goshawkr]

Geoff writes:

>The concept of leadership towards my animals was slow to bubble up in my head, but once I started using that word, LEAD (instead of dominate) my interactions really improved with my hawks, my dogs, and my horses. Not to mention my kids.

I realize this is a thread about imprinting HH's, but it would be nice to now how "leadership" improved you relationship with your hawks. Thanks.

Bill Boni

Sorry Bill, but your being too vague and there isnt anything for me to latch onto as an answer.

I guess other than to expand on what I said a bit - animals follow if you lead. Its that simple. With hawks, they will follow you if your giving them what they want (slips at game, etc). The trick is to notice when they are leading you, and to be cautious about playing into them too much. For example, every goshawk I have ever worked with sooner or later has tried to manipulate me into giving it the lure, or a pigeon, or a garnished glove, by acting aloof and goofing off. A local falconer was trained by his goshawk to go home and fetch a live pigeon.

Harris' hawks are much more team players and not nearly so manipulative as goshawks are. But they still follow whoever is the best leader. If you want that to be you, you better be willing and able to step up to the job and show your hawk catchable game.

Leadership - as we think of it towards people - is vague and hard to pin down because there are so many facets to it, and not even the best leader is strong in all of them.

Leadership towards animals is no different.

[robruger1]

Well I'm glad this is the direction the thread has headed since after all of this.......... I'm not getting the HH after all. I was supposed to pick it up this evening but got a call this afternoon. Not sure what happened but it passed. Luckily got a gos nest located yesterday with newly hatched young. Going back next week to retrieve the new charge.

[goshawkr]

Well I'm glad this is the direction the thread has headed since after all of this.......... I'm not getting the HH after all. I was supposed to pick it up this evening but got a call this afternoon. Not sure what happened but it passed. Luckily got a gos nest located yesterday with newly hatched young. Going back next week to retrieve the new charge.

Sorry to hear the sad news :(, but happy to hear the happy news! :D

[rkumetz]

Well I'm glad this is the direction the thread has headed since after all of this.......... I'm not getting the HH after all. I was supposed to pick it up this evening but got a call this afternoon. Not sure what happened but it passed. Luckily got a gos nest located yesterday with newly hatched young. Going back next week to retrieve the new charge.

I am sorry to hear about the bird however that being said I think you have not been entirely candid with us about the situation. If you were getting a harris' from a breeder who was not in control of the situation and could not produce a properly socialized parent raised bird (like the reputable breeders) then you really should not be protecting his or her reputation. If the situation was of your doing such as wanting to imprint the bird despite conventional wisdom then I think we are owed an explanation. Sorry if you perceive this as a personal attack but a lot of people have sat down, scratched their heads and shared their hard earned tribal knowledge so I think they deserve to understand what is going on.

[MrBill]

Geoff,

A general definition of leadership is "is the art of motivating a group of people to act towards achieving a common goal, or in this case a hawk." So, what I was trying to find out is how you went about doing this. Hopefully that's not too vague.

From what you have written, it appears that as far as you are concerned leadership is not allowing hawks to manipulate you.

Thanks for the response. I was just curious.

Bill Boni

[Jimmy]

I think they deserve to understand what is going on.

I think it's nobody's business but his. He clearly said at the beginning of this thread that he wouldn't share the details. He doesn't owe anyone an explanation, imo.....

[goshawkr]

Geoff,

A general definition of leadership is "is the art of motivating a group of people to act towards achieving a common goal, or in this case a hawk." So, what I was trying to find out is how you went about doing this. Hopefully that's not too vague.

From what you have written, it appears that as far as you are concerned leadership is not allowing hawks to manipulate you.

Thanks for the response. I was just curious.

Bill Boni

Well, I would accept that defintion - and it opens thinking up beyond the limited thinking that often goes into training a hawk (or dog or horse). It gets one thinking about the other ways to motivate, beyond simply using hunger. Hunger is key for hawks...but they are not such simple minded creatures that this is the only thing that makes them hunt (or how would a breeding pair provide for their young). I came to the realization in reading an excellent book on an unconventional method of training horses where the author advocated leadership instead of brute dominance (which is traditional "cowboy way" thinking). It really opened my eyes and mind.

Leadship actually is very much about allowing hawks to manipulate you. The key, is to watch for them manipulating you in ways that contradict your goals.

Manipulition, at some level, occurs in both directions anytime any two animals interact with each other. In the specific cases we are talking about here - in traditional falconry the falconer manipulates the hawk with a food reward when the hawk does what the falconer wants. But on the other side of the equation, the hawk is doing just as much manipulaiton. The hawk is manipulating the falconer with behaviors that the falconer wants to see so that it can get a food reward.

To really REALLY understand that you are being trained as much as you are training opens the doors wide open in what you can accomplish. Then you can let yourself be trained in ways that you actually want to be trained, instead of waking up one day and realizing your doing some very silly things for your "mindless" reptilian brained hawk.

[MrBill]

Geoff writes:

>I came to the realization in reading an excellent book on an unconventional method of training horses where the author advocated leadership instead of brute dominance (which is traditional "cowboy way" thinking). It really opened my eyes and mind.

This is off topic, and I apologize, but the same thing happened to me in terms of training dogs for competition. For years I used the then popular "Koehler Method of Dog Traiuning," which was the "cowboy way" you mentioned. Years later I got involved with Schutzhund competition and learned that all of that forcing your will on a dog was unnecessary; that you could actually get a dog to perform well at a high level of competition by making the training a game, using a simple ball as reward.

Again, sorry about being off-topic, but couldn't resist.

Bill Boni

[goshawkr]

Geoff writes:

>I came to the realization in reading an excellent book on an unconventional method of training horses where the author advocated leadership instead of brute dominance (which is traditional "cowboy way" thinking). It really opened my eyes and mind.

This is off topic, and I apologize, but the same thing happened to me in terms of training dogs for competition. For years I used the then popular "Koehler Method of Dog Traiuning," which was the "cowboy way" you mentioned. Years later I got involved with Schutzhund competition and learned that all of that forcing your will on a dog was unnecessary; that you could actually get a dog to perform well at a high level of competition by making the training a game, using a simple ball as reward.

Again, sorry about being off-topic, but couldn't resist.

Bill Boni

I have one of Koehler's training books - on training guard dogs. I spent years trying to decide if I should donate it or burn it. It just goes so strongly against my nature to burn any books - but I just dont want the ideas in that thing getting out.

[goshawkr]

Geoff writes:

>I came to the realization in reading an excellent book on an unconventional method of training horses where the author advocated leadership instead of brute dominance (which is traditional "cowboy way" thinking). It really opened my eyes and mind.

This is off topic, and I apologize, but the same thing happened to me in terms of training dogs for competition. For years I used the then popular "Koehler Method of Dog Traiuning," which was the "cowboy way" you mentioned. Years later I got involved with Schutzhund competition and learned that all of that forcing your will on a dog was unnecessary; that you could actually get a dog to perform well at a high level of competition by making the training a game, using a simple ball as reward.

Again, sorry about being off-topic, but couldn't resist.

Bill Boni

I dont think this is far off topic, BTW. Dog training is certainly off topic from falconry in general, and from raising an imprint Harris' hawk specifically, but that is an excellent example of alternate forms of motivation, and "leadership" training. Sadly, while I use similar ideas when working with hawks, I just cant come up with any examples at the moment.

[chamokane]

Well I'm glad this is the direction the thread has headed since after all of this.......... I'm not getting the HH after all. I was supposed to pick it up this evening but got a call this afternoon. Not sure what happened but it passed. Luckily got a gos nest located yesterday with newly hatched young. Going back next week to retrieve the new charge.

Are you going to try for a male or a female? What method do you plan to use to raise the Gos?

[robruger1]

Are you going to try for a male or a female? What method do you plan to use to raise the Gos?

Well I'd like to continue to pick Geoff's brain as his method seems very smart. Maybe we can get the moderators to move the portion of this thread where we started talking about gos's to its own thread and continue this conversation, just under a different title so people can find it in the search for future reference. I'd like a female, I hunt thick heavy brush and the ability to crash through it is helpful, plus I would like to try my hand at christmas tree farm jacks.

[robruger1]

I am sorry to hear about the bird however that being said I think you have not been entirely candid with us about the situation. If you were getting a harris' from a breeder who was not in control of the situation and could not produce a properly socialized parent raised bird (like the reputable breeders) then you really should not be protecting his or her reputation. If the situation was of your doing such as wanting to imprint the bird despite conventional wisdom then I think we are owed an explanation. Sorry if you perceive this as a personal attack but a lot of people have sat down, scratched their heads and shared their hard earned tribal knowledge so I think they deserve to understand what is going on.

You're right, I'm not being totally candid with this situation. Nor will I. I will say that I intended to imprint to make the best of an unfortunate situation. I do appreciate the time and thought people put into this thread. It turned out to not be of need for me at this time, but that doesn't mean that it won't be helpful in some way to someone else down the road. Plus, is spending a little time working through a situation in thought, if something is learned from it, ever a waste? I really think that this thread has been a great exercise for folks that participated in pooling knowledge.

Think what you will about my unwillingness to be completely forthright in this situation, but I have personal obligations to the breeder who is my former sponsor than I have to anyone here. Sorry but that is all I have to say.


I think it's nobody's business but his. He clearly said at the beginning of this thread that he wouldn't share the details. He doesn't owe anyone an explanation, imo.....

Thanks for the back up Jimmy. You da man.

[sevristh]

I think it's nobody's business but his. He clearly said at the beginning of this thread that he wouldn't share the details. He doesn't owe anyone an explanation, imo.....

clapp thumbsupp

[harrishawk_79]

of course not he should have to explain or give reason but lets all remember the facts that if he would have imprinted this mhh and it becomes aggresive and attacks another human and does major damage its not just him that looks bad all because this so called back yard breeder cant seem to raise the chicks proper.or of course we dont know whats reall the reason for the chick to be imprinted

[robruger1]

For those of you who have contributed to this thread, I thank you. It has been an educational experience. If nothing else, this thread may be of use to someone in the future looking into imprinting an HH.clapp

For those of you could do nothing but talk smack...... I hope I never meet you in the field......boxingg I now ask the moderators to close this thread.

Thanks to those who really were helpful.