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robruger1
05-28-2011, 06:28 PM
10 days old. Nest was checked the day of hatch so no guesstimation on the age which is nice. 292 grams. Good appetite and shows zero fear. Anyone venture to guess the sex? This is my first gos so I have no basis for comparison.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0429.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0428.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0428.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0426.jpg

goshawks00
05-28-2011, 06:58 PM
Female --wedge head , thick tarsus..

FredFogg
05-28-2011, 11:12 PM
Nice! Man I want one soooooo bad! Congrats, have fun. clapp

robruger1
05-29-2011, 12:23 AM
Thanks Fred, I'm really excited. Barry, yeah I was kinda leaning that way as well. The chick my buddy pulled from the same nest so far weighs the same but we thought it had a slightly narrower cere and a slightly short hallux to middle toe measurement. Is your guestimation based only on physical features, or is the weight also too high for it to be a male at this stage? I ask because we thought mine might be a female and his a male but the weight is the same or within a few grams.

hcmcelroy
05-29-2011, 03:50 AM
Rob,

Best of luck with this hawk it looks like a nice one. I don't know about gos but the aplo has been sexed by weight by The Peregrine Fund. At 15 days the females weigh much more!!! I've sexed Cooper's by weight at 12 days of age up to 18 days and again the weight is dramatically higher in the females.

My guess is that there is a large weight difference in the gos too but I have no idea when that occurs. Of course a feather, blood or egg shell example could be sent in for a lab test. I understand that it is not expensive.

I am going to imprint a gos again this year and I am interested in how you raise your hawk.
Harry.

goshawks00
05-29-2011, 08:31 AM
. Is your guestimation based only on physical features, or is the weight also too high for it to be a male at this stage? I ask because we thought mine might be a female and his a male but the weight is the same or within a few grams.

Rob weight is not a very good indication of what sex a chick is , at least at this time.. Example- today before feeding the goshawk chicks, I weighed several of them to show a comparison. These are known DNA tested chicks so I know what they are..

chick 1-female 9 days old--272 gr.
chick 2-female 9 days old--269 gr. these 2 are clutch mates

chick 3-male 11 days old--292 gr.
chick 4-male 9 days old--266 gr. these 2 are also clutch mates

Weight... parentage... quality and quantity of food ate, hydration are all determinative factors, and can vary quite a bit, chick to chick, and clutch to clutch.
Now then, shapes and I suppose measurements to a point are a better source of determining the sex of the bird. For me things I look for are, and not in any order: Head shape, is it cheese head/ wedge shaped , ping-pong ball shaped(?) ,tarsus thickness,and the joint thickness where the toes meet, size of cere, width of head.

In the end it is what it is, enjoy what ever you got, and have fun...

hcmcelroy
05-29-2011, 11:08 AM
Barry,

It is always interesting to read your comments about the gos I know you have been there. The Peregrine Fund found a dramatic difference in the weights of aplos at age 15 days. At some point wouldn't the gos begin to show a large difference in weight between the sexes?

Harry.

robruger1
05-29-2011, 11:31 AM
Rob weight is not a very good indication of what sex a chick is , at least at this time.. Example- today before feeding the goshawk chicks, I weighed several of them to show a comparison. These are known DNA tested chicks so I know what they are..

chick 1-female 9 days old--272 gr.
chick 2-female 9 days old--269 gr. these 2 are clutch mates

chick 3-male 11 days old--292 gr.
chick 4-male 9 days old--266 gr. these 2 are also clutch mates

Weight... parentage... quality and quantity of food ate, hydration are all determinative factors, and can vary quite a bit, chick to chick, and clutch to clutch.
Now then, shapes and I suppose measurements to a point are a better source of determining the sex of the bird. For me things I look for are, and not in any order: Head shape, is it cheese head/ wedge shaped , ping-pong ball shaped(?) ,tarsus thickness,and the joint thickness where the toes meet, size of cere, width of head.

In the end it is what it is, enjoy what ever you got, and have fun...

I'll be happy either way. My buddy is really hoping his is a male. It is nice to see my birds weight range for age is right in there with yours. The other reason we thought maybe his was male and mine a female was because my birds head and beak looked longer while his face seemed much shorter and blunter. His beak also seemed like it curved down sooner.

goshawks00
05-29-2011, 01:22 PM
At some point wouldn't the gos begin to show a large difference in weight between the sexes?

Harry.

Absolutely, but mine are pretty much gone by that time... It also becomes pretty apparent what's what after a while...key word being sometimes... I think the weights for different sexs of goshawks really starts ramping up at about 20 days.. Maybe Rob and his friend can monitor their chicks and make that comparison, of course factoring in some of the variables I mentioned , plus another which is some just don't eat as much as others even within a nest.

hcmcelroy
05-29-2011, 06:24 PM
Barry,

Yes, I was making the guess that the difference would become obvious at 18-20 days. It would be interesting if Rob would keep a record. I don't know of a record of weights for the gos. I can weigh mine this year too. It is interesting that the weight difference comes so close to the imprinting age.

Harry.

goshawks00
05-29-2011, 07:16 PM
Many years ago and for several years I kept all kinds of records... weights per day amount ate per day also foot size per day. Some times charting up to 5 goshawks some seasons. I also compared our Midwest goshawks to a couple westerns that I pulled, and a couple of Finnish birds for grins. Then we moved , things had gotten packed away, and I just don't have it in me to go back into 'the black hole' of the attic and try to find them. I think Tom did a pretty accurate accounting of his female a couple of years ago. I did find some records that I added to that thread, and yea it would be interesting to see others keep some accurate precise records of their own individual goshawks.

robruger1
05-29-2011, 08:01 PM
I already am keeping a log, I will post it here if people want to keep track

hcmcelroy
05-30-2011, 01:07 AM
I already am keeping a log, I will post it here if people want to keep track
Rob, Let's see it! It would be most interesting to see the weights if you or your friend have a female. At around 20 days of age the female may be much larger. The male I will get will be sexed by DNA so I'll know that it will be a male for sure. But it will be interesting to know how you raise it too.
Harry

robruger1
05-31-2011, 08:41 AM
I intended to weigh from the get go but when I went to use my scale the battery was dead and it has been a busy memorial day weekend and didn't get a battery until Sunday night but waited until yesterday morning while she was empty to weigh her. Yesterday she was 355 grams and this morning she was 385 grams. She is 14 days old today. Her foot measurement last night from tip of hallux to tip of middle toe was exactly 3 inches.

schwartze
05-31-2011, 03:22 PM
Hi Rob,

I pulled a goshawk on Sunday from a nest near Edmonton, AB. Both adults were present and gave us quite the performance. My friend Jon got some shots of the male. There were 4 young in the nest, and I took this one because it appeared to be 1-2 days older than the other three. The eyass weighed 160 grams that evening and I am guessing that it was around 7-8 days old. The day before we took a bird from another nest for a falconer up here who flew a great passage female last year at snowshoe hare. She killed around 35 hares but was killed by a kick from the last hare she tried to kill. That eyass was fostered onto a pair of Harris' hawks and will be chamber-raised to around 50 days. Neither of us are too picky about the gender of our birds.

I flew a nice imprint male two seasons ago and it's exciting to be giving it another shot.

Regards,

Steve


http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/photo.jpg

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_5168.jpg

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_5112.jpg

robruger1
05-31-2011, 03:30 PM
Cool Steve, maybe we both keep logs on here of day to day weight until hardpenning for a reference for others?

wingnut
05-31-2011, 04:18 PM
That male is gorgeous. Either your friend Jon is really quick or he got it in the face right after he snapped that third picture. Love imprint males....I really envy you.

hcmcelroy
05-31-2011, 08:28 PM
Steve,

Great shots! Can you tell us about the imprinting and hunting used on your male? What system? Was he easy or difficult, what did you hunt, etc?

Did you hood him?

Harry.

hcmcelroy
05-31-2011, 08:31 PM
Rob,

Good to see you are weighing her/him. My guess is that weighing in the morning on an empty crop every other day would give us a record. I hope Steve will do the same. I'll weigh mine as he ages too.

Harry.

keitht
05-31-2011, 10:34 PM
I prefer to pull my gos chicks a bit older than the two above just so I can sex them. I look for that just right time when they are old enough to sex and yet not too old to retain wildness.

Of coarse, if sex isn't a concern then it doesn't matter.

schwartze
06-01-2011, 02:31 AM
Hi All,

I'd be glad to keep a daily weight log. I am away on business for a few days though, and did not bring a scale. I will start as soon as I get home. Harry, I'll give you a quick history of my last imprint male when I'm home as well, on here if Rob would like or by PM otherwise.

I have raised a bunch of imprints over the years, but I have never been around a goshawk of this age. This bird's appetite is absolutely astounding.

Regards,

Steve

robruger1
06-01-2011, 08:32 AM
Huge weight gain in the last 24 hours. Today, completely empty she is 15.2 ounces or 430 grams! That is a 1.6 ounce gain from yesterday.

hcmcelroy
06-01-2011, 10:28 AM
I prefer to pull my gos chicks a bit older than the two above just so I can sex them. I look for that just right time when they are old enough to sex and yet not too old to retain wildness.

Of coarse, if sex isn't a concern then it doesn't matter.
Keith,

Good to see your comments.

A bit older for sexing? What age is that? Perhaps you have the weights and age we are seeking?

Thanks,

Harry.

robruger1
06-02-2011, 08:29 AM
Today she's 16.5 ounces or 468 grams. My buddy called last night and said his bird yesterday morning was 455 grams so it is bigger than my bird but he's sure his is a male. She's now 15 days old. Barry, at what age can you sex by weight?

Saluqi
06-02-2011, 08:42 AM
Hi Rob,

Here are links to Jim's thread on raising Hannah, his wild-taken NA gos. Late last winter Jim transferred her to me and she is an extremely nice bird, great manners, quiet, and super tame, so there's lots of good info buried in these threads.

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=4317

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=5253

goshawks00
06-02-2011, 09:01 AM
I agree with Paul, there is a lot of info folded into threads if you look...also look at Ginsus thread
Now here is what I can today...

#1 female--482 grams -15 days
#2 female--465 grams -14 days
#1 male----507 grams -16 days

How about a current head and tarsus shot of your chick...

BTW I haven't said much but I took a male goshawk this year from Mich. the first legally taken eyas in close to 40 years. He is about 21+ - days old and weighed 588 this morning.

sevristh
06-02-2011, 09:03 AM
Rob,

My thread here http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=5152&highlight=armis might provide some extra info as far as weights too. Though, Armis was 18 days old when I started it. But I posted detailed feather growth pictures as well as weights.

Joby
06-02-2011, 10:00 AM
BTW I haven't said much but I took a male goshawk this year from Mich. the first legally taken eyas in close to 40 years. He is about 21+ - days old and weighed 588 this morning.

CONGRATS Barry!! BTW, could you tell your new 'lil guy to send his big sis a postcard telling her how great Ohio is as a wintering spot. Then I'll make sure to hook up with her at the border this fall! ;)

Pedioecetes
06-02-2011, 12:28 PM
This will be a very interesting thread. Steve that is one fine looking haggard gos! Was that up at Mike's? Keep everyone posted on yours as well. Some day, I keep thinking I should branch out into the gos world, but some day never seems to come.

schwartze
06-02-2011, 03:19 PM
I'm not entirely sure of the bird's age, but I think it's around 11 days old today. This morning before breakfast it weighed 305g, then ate 82g of ground quail.

Below are some pictures of the bird just after the morning meal. I have my thoughts on what gender it is, but I'll let others take their guesses first.

Bob, this bird is from Mike's. Mike told me that he's had a pair of goshawks on his place every year since he built his house...around 24 years, I think. Nobody has ever taken an eyass off of his place, just the odd passager. One year he had all 3 N.A. accipiters nesting within 100 yards of the house. Mike's grandson Riley is turning out to be quite the keen young falconer, and he hopes to trap a passage male gos at Mike's this fall to fly at magpies.

Harry, my first goshawk was a captive-bred male from Dan Pike. I got him when he was about 20 days old, and Danny had raised him from hatching until then. My approach to raising him was recipe-ish, with perhaps a little less stress on daily baggies when he was younger. My main regrets with him were the following;
1) He was not raised around my pointer (I was away from home) ,
2) I managed his hunger pre-penning to encourage killing baggies,
3) I forced hooding when he refused it, the way I do with hood-shy young falcons.
His first wild kill was a crow from the window of the truck. He killed some young quail early on, then the first rabbit he ever saw, and I spent a fair amount of time doing progressively more challenging pigeons from a launcher. In August I focussed on magpies and crows from the truck, then in September switched to flying huns in weed fields in an agricultural area near work with the pointer finally in the mix. He killed 13 huns in great flights before they grew up enough to simply outfly him, a problem more to do with the places I was hawking than anything. I didn't get to start hawking on my home turf until early November, where I have more selection of quarry and terrain. Once home he killed a few more huns, some pheasants, and more magpies, but his fear of the dog became worse and hooding became a problem. I reduced his weight to try to curb the "issues", but it was a miserably cold December and on one or two occasions he completely shut down in the cold. I decided to fatten him up and quit for the year just after Christmas. He moulted beautifully in isolation, then escaped a week before I planned to pull him when a wind storm ripped a section of the wall off of a friend's chamber where I had put him for the summer. It was a real bummer to lose him.


http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_4860.jpg


http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_4864.jpg


http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_4865.jpg

Regards,

Steve

robruger1
06-02-2011, 03:28 PM
Wow, great responses guys, thanks for all the info. Thanks for the links as well.

robruger1
06-02-2011, 06:37 PM
Ok so my wife bounced my camera off the dance floor at the bar on her last birthday so all I have right now is my cell so bear with me on these pics, but here they are as requested.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0433.jpghttp://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0434.jpghttp://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0435.jpghttp://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0436.jpghttp://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0437.jpg

AdamVR
06-02-2011, 07:34 PM
Is that a teaspoon? lol, very nice bird.

All the best with her
Regards

keitht
06-02-2011, 10:50 PM
Harry wrote:
A bit older for sexing? What age is that? Perhaps you have the weights and age we are seeking?

Harry: I have weighed many gos chicks taken from nests over the years and, for me, it has been fairly useless information. Much of the difficulty is knowing with any certainty just how old a chick is. Chicks grow so quickly that being off a day or two can throw off you weight comparisons. Foot span measurements are another measurement that may have a bit more meaning that body weights.

Then chicks that are fed more grow more. I have seen chicks that received almost not enough food to thrive turn out stunted.

I have always thought that sexing gos chicks was a bit harder than sexing coopers. And I'm not sure why.

I like to pull a chick when there is just a very slight bit of brown showing. And of coarse it helps to have a nest with both sexes. But that too has thrown many a falconer off, as the smaller bird may just be the younger bird.

I've often heard, as Barry stated the "wedge head," as being helpful. And that may be so, but my eyes have never made much distinction in head shapes. So while it may be helpful to others, I haven't relied much on it.

The one characteristic that is meaningful to me is leg thickness, (as Barry also mentioned) But you have to have a very good and trained eye to see it when there is not another chick of the opposite sex available for comparison.

(So I've said a lot and unfortunately answered nothing)

robruger1
06-03-2011, 08:59 AM
Holy crap. By far biggest weight gain, almost doesn't seem possible, But I double and triple checked the scale and its true. 18.6 ounces, 528 grams!

goshawks00
06-03-2011, 10:08 AM
Roger if you can please include age of chick with each weight..it will help to track different chicks for comparison...

New weights/ ages:

#1 female 529 grams..16 days
#2 female 490 grams..15 days
#1 male 534 grams..17 days

#1 female leaves tomorow
#2 female leaves Sunday
#1 male leaves in 4 hours

I will get DNA results on another 4 chicks today so I may be able to add some more weights depending on sexs

BTW my Mich. wild taken male is 592 grams and is 20 days+ -1

FredFogg
06-03-2011, 10:47 AM
Roger if you can please include age of chick with each weight..it will help to track different chicks for comparison...

New weights/ ages:

#1 female 529 grams..16 days
#2 female 490 grams..15 days
#1 male 534 grams..17 days

#1 female leaves tomorow
#2 female leaves Sunday
#1 male leaves in 4 hours

I will get DNA results on another 4 chicks today so I may be able to add some more weights depending on sexs

BTW my Mich. wild taken male is 592 grams and is 20 days+ -1

Very interesting data Barry, thanks for putting it out there for everyone. Raising many goshawks over the years, I am sure you can answer this for me. I understand the males growing faster and having a heavier weight so that they keep up with the females so they don't get eaten by their big sisters but at what age do the females usually overtake them weight wise? I see at 17 days the male is still heavier than the females.

hcmcelroy
06-03-2011, 11:00 AM
Rob,

Nice photos. The color of feet is dramatic it must be on a good diet!

Harry.

hcmcelroy
06-03-2011, 11:11 AM
Keith,

I agree on all points and the gos must be difficult to sex by age I've heard about sexing difficulties many times. In the wild unless we are at Barry's level we may not have a good idea of age. The leg diameter may be the easy way if a person knows the age and someone published the sizes.

I'll never forget when Dr. Clint Boal was getting his PhD on the Cooper's in Tucson some years ago. He used calipers to judge age of Cooper's and he was right on the money every time. We both looked at a female chick and he said female. My remark was no way its a male. It was female.

As Fred asks Barry at what age do they differ markedly? That is the question and once we know it we'll be home free. In aplomados and Cooper's the difference in weights occurs before imprinting and I pray it will be the same with the gos otherwise the info will be of limited value.

I believe we are right around the corner...

Harry.

goshawks00
06-03-2011, 11:16 AM
Fred there are a couple of dynamics that may not be apparent here... First of all, the male is one and two days older than the females listed. He is also from a different breeding. Now they don't grow at a stead , say 20 grams a day basis... they have growing spurts... I think you'll see as things unfold that the females start 'out growing' ..weight wise at least, the males at around 20 days or so.

In wild conditions, IF the food conditions are right, and nothing happens to one of the parents, it's conceivable they all will make it...

This years wild nest I was at had 4 chicks... by my estimation, a big female about 9 days old , 2 males about 7 days old, and a really small, I think female about 5 days old. Now that puts the oldest female 3 times the size of the smallest chick. When I got to the nest the biggest female had a huge crop, one of the middle males a half crop, the other was empty and the littlest one also had nothing. In lean years that is when death starts at the bottom end and works it's way up, survival of the fittest... The good thing was sitting in the nest, plucked, minus the head, was a fresh killed dove, and both parents were at the nest when we got to the tree. This nest will succeed moist likely. I took the unfed middle male, leaving the big female to carry on as monarch of the nest and trusting three mouths will be easier to fill than four.
I know that doesn't answer your question outright, and really I don't think there is a definite answer, but hopefully it helps you to think a bit more clearly about all that can and does go on in the dynamics of a nest... at least in the wild

hcmcelroy
06-03-2011, 11:20 AM
Oppppps! I intended to say Dr. Boal used calipers to judge SEX of Cooper's not age.

Harry.

goshawks00
06-03-2011, 11:30 AM
As Fred asks Barry at what age do they differ markedly? That is the question and once we know it we'll be home free.
Harry.

So if you are willing to wait with chicks in the nest until 20 days you will be able to tell!! Yes that helps eh!!:eek:toungeout

I am not right a lot of times but it is fun to guess and then hone your skills, but then again the biggest factor is knowing the true age of the chicks in order to make a correct 'guess' In other words, using , as you said tarsus diameters, would you agree that all the chicks will have the same diameter a a certain age?
Lets' say a width of 1/4"... A female at say 6 days will have that measurement, a male will also but at say 8-9 days. With out knowing their ages how would you know? I know it's more complex than that but there is many overlaps along the way.... BTW I can guesstimate goshawk pretty well and also sharpies, but not so well on coopsnoidea

BTW in a well read authors book,( not you Harry) there are numerous pics with ages of the chicks and long running accounts of their training at certain ages. Looking at quite a few pics in that book , the author is off by several days as far as ages of those birds... Does it make any difference , maybe not , but still if a neophyte is basing his hawks age and training upon those given he is mistaken.. .02

keitht
06-03-2011, 12:59 PM
I have often found it helpful if and when a breeder would post various pictures of chicks at know ages. (hint, hint Barry)

robruger1
06-03-2011, 02:33 PM
Rob,

Nice photos. The color of feet is dramatic it must be on a good diet!

Harry.

Boyd's quail, homing pigeons, thats about it. I've added an egg yolk to the grind a few times but not always, maybe 30-40% of the time. Boyd's quail although very small are the best quality quail I've ever seen. I will use quail from other sources as well but nothing but Boyd's while raising a baby. I only use 8 week old and the females always have eggs in them and it all gets ground up together.

schwartze
06-03-2011, 03:03 PM
Weighed in at 376g this morning, and here's a side-profile headshot for Barry, as requested.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_4867.jpg

As was suggested earlier, it's a bit meaningless to use weight to try to guess gender unless exact age is known, as the spurts tend to make the weight differ so much from one day to the next. I wish I knew the exact hatch date of mine, as Rob does, but I am only able to guess. I have guessed gender on a number of imprints over the years, and not surprisingly, I've been right about 50% of the time.

Regardless of gender the bird is getting plenty of early socialization and has yet to show any fear.

Regards,

Steve

robruger1
06-03-2011, 03:07 PM
I wish I knew the exact hatch date of mine, as Rob does, but I am only able to guess.
Regards,

Steve
That was pure luck that they nest was getting checked the day they were hatching. Very glad it worked out that way though.

robruger1
06-03-2011, 03:35 PM
Roger if you can please include age of chick with each weight..it will help to track different chicks for comparison...

New weights/ ages:

#1 female 529 grams..16 days
#2 female 490 grams..15 days
#1 male 534 grams..17 days

#1 female leaves tomorow
#2 female leaves Sunday
#1 male leaves in 4 hours

I will get DNA results on another 4 chicks today so I may be able to add some more weights depending on sexs

BTW my Mich. wild taken male is 592 grams and is 20 days+ -1

What about foot measurement? I just now measured my birds foot and it is 3 5/16 tip of hallux to tip of middle toe. The right way, just flesh tip to tip. They seem kind of small to me, I'm starting to think my bird is a male, but then again I really don't know what I' talking about.

hcmcelroy
06-03-2011, 08:16 PM
Barry,

As I age I'm less sure about anything all I know is the way home...usually.
I've had little problem with the gender of the Cooper's by weighing in the morning on an empty crop from 14 days of age. The difference is not like the gos because the females outweigh the males by quite a bit. From 14-18 days the female weighs more than a mature male in the individuals I have weighed.
At 15 days of age the aplos weighed by The Peregrine Fund Females ranged from 223-252 and males ranged from 191-205. So in this small falco there was some range. Weights I have taken support their range.

By the way we tried foot and beak measurements and found all sorts of irregular measurements. Some of the males had longer toes than the females. We looked at beaks and had non falconers look at them too and some of the males had really large beaks when only a day or two old so it didn't work well for us.

Dr. Clint Boal is the one for the tarsus measurements I'm not sure how he did it but he was accurate.

Harry.

hcmcelroy
06-03-2011, 08:21 PM
Steve,

Beautiful head shot!

Speaking of fear do you see fear in imprinted gos that have been kept in close association with the falconer? If so at what age?

Thanks,

Harry.

schwartze
06-03-2011, 09:40 PM
Steve,

Beautiful head shot!

Speaking of fear do you see fear in imprinted gos that have been kept in close association with the falconer? If so at what age?

Thanks,

Harry.

Hi Harry,

This is only my second imprint goshawk, so I am not speaking from much experience, but what I can offer is a bit of wisdom passed on to me by Danny Pike when he gave me my first imprint. He told me that "an imprint goshawk is still a goshawk."

That bit of insight into goshawks, though seemingly simple, didn't quite make sense to me until I spent a season flying one. Apart from the absence of the dog, my male was very well socialized. Planes, trains and automobiles (where have I read that before?) were part of life for him from the very start. He was very tame. However, the strangest things would set him off, and his inner goshawk would shine through. For example, ceiling fans were not a problem if they were off or at full speed. Spinning slowly was not acceptable. For another, the dog working the field ahead of us was fine, near or far, as long as he was running away from us or quartering ahead. If he turned in our direction, the gos went from hunting to panic mode.

My way of thinking now is that fear in the well-socialized imprint is more a result of improper weight when it comes time for hawking. Fear in the pre-penned eyass is to be expected when new things are encountered, but they get over those things quickly and without damaging themselves, and that's obviously the whole point of taking them so young.

I saw the first fear-response from this 12-ish-day-old eyass this afternoon. It's a great illustration of Danny's wise words. The bird ate a big meal, then slept for about an hour in its plastic tub while I did some yard-work around him. He woke up, and I reached down into the tub to touch his feet (I like lots of hand exposure), and he panicked, hissing at my hand and toppling over like he had never seen a hand in his life. Turns out he's still a goshawk.

Hope that's along the lines of what you were asking.

Regards,

Steve

hcmcelroy
06-04-2011, 10:07 AM
Steve,

An interesting post, thanks.

Your observation about the gos registering a fear reaction at 12 days of age, which is long before imprinting, is interesting and now I wonder if this reaction is common within the goshawk or perhaps more common in the males?

My greatest experience has been with the Cooper's and when we pull a female we try to do so at 18 days of age which is when the females begin to imprint. We select the one that demonstrates no reaction when we peer over the edge of the nest and weigh it at the site to determine gender. So what I'm saying is that the female chick demonstrates no fear until it has matured enough to imprint.

After a few days we have exposed it to everything we can or it will show fear such as if we forget to take it to the barn and expose it to the horses. Such a hawklet will likely need some time to condition to the horses when it is hard penned and flying.

Any way an interesting topic and perhaps one more behavior separating the gos from the Cooper's.

Harry.

robruger1
06-04-2011, 10:46 AM
18.9ounces 536 grams. Very little weight gain shown by scale but she also had cast her very first pellet and it was LARGE! So that is part of the lack of weight gain shown.

Steve's post surprised me as my bird has not shown a single fear reaction yet.

wyodjm
06-04-2011, 11:49 AM
Steve,

An interesting post, thanks.

Your observation about the gos registering a fear reaction at 12 days of age, which is long before imprinting, is interesting and now I wonder if this reaction is common within the goshawk or perhaps more common in the males?

My greatest experience has been with the Cooper's and when we pull a female we try to do so at 18 days of age which is when the females begin to imprint. We select the one that demonstrates no reaction when we peer over the edge of the nest and weigh it at the site to determine gender. So what I'm saying is that the female chick demonstrates no fear until it has matured enough to imprint.

After a few days we have exposed it to everything we can or it will show fear such as if we forget to take it to the barn and expose it to the horses. Such a hawklet will likely need some time to condition to the horses when it is hard penned and flying.

Any way an interesting topic and perhaps one more behavior separating the gos from the Cooper's.

Harry.

Hi Harry:

Iíve been reading this thread with interest. Iíve only raised three imprint goshawks over the years. All were pulled as wild eyasses at around 14 days. Each was raised in what I perceived as identical environments, yet each turned out differently. All were great game hawks but they were different. They were also noisy. Especially the first year.

The best one was probably one that I raised until it was hard penned and then handed over to a friend to keep and fly. It was also the least vocal of the three. I have always wondered since then if two people could raise another personís gos and then trade birds at hard penning. I wonder if it would consistently make a difference.

Iím also interested in the fear factor issue you are discussing. Interesting. Although it may be totally unrelated, there seems to be a window of opportunity when manning passage goshawks to get them exposed to and used to things also. Iíve found that after a certain period, passage goshawks stop tolerating new things in their lives. Iíve also observed this in several of my friendsí passage goshawks over the years. You want to get a passage bird exposed to as much stuff as possible in the beginning of the birdís training. It just seems that they stop wanting to be tolerant after a certain period of time. I just donít know how wide that window is, however.

Iím interested in flying a passage prairie this fall. Will I encounter the same issues during its manning process?

All my best to you Harry,

Dan

keitht
06-04-2011, 01:03 PM
Tiercels seem to be far more prone to show fits of fear than females. In this regard, they are about even with coopers. The big difference between the imprint tiercel gos and the imprint tiercel coops is the tendency for aggression. The tiercel coops are far more prone to aggression and much of our training is geared at reducing it. The tiercel gos shows very little of this.
In goses, the fear thing pops up around penning. It also shows up and increases in the female - just more so in males.

This has always been referred to as "withdrawal." Intense early socialization to everything lessens its effect. When I was a very young man and I saw this increase in fear, I attempted to "cure" it by increased handling and more socialization. It turns out that socialization at this point in the game is far less effective than with the young chick. And I'm in perfect agreement with Steve. It then becomes a weight control issue.

Socialization is the name of the game with the young chick. Somewhere along the line, the focus changes from socialization to weight control.

Another unrelated thing is this: As a goshawk matures through the years, they really mellow out. The same thing happens with the coopers.

hcmcelroy
06-04-2011, 01:56 PM
Rob,

Thanks for the weight I'm keeping a record but I've forgotten your hawk's age. At 536 grams what day? Is it 11 or 12?

Harry.

robruger1
06-04-2011, 02:01 PM
17 days old today.

schwartze
06-04-2011, 02:10 PM
Mine is 416g this morning. About 13 days old.

Steve

hcmcelroy
06-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Dan,

Good to see you posting on this topic...like many others I have always respected your views.
Yes, agreed the personality of hawks, dogs, horses, people vary greatly even when the environment remains much the same. My two horses were trained using the same systems and they are like two different species. One is a nice horse but he requires loads of attention while in the saddle the other is a natural and seems to know what ever the rider wants. Recent research has revealed inherent personality traits and the study of twins about 40 or so years ago indicated the same.
The practice of different people raising an accipiter and trading must be a good one. I would do it if I had a friend locally (ok I'll confess I twisted some arms but the individual only laughed). However, I was given an imprinted male gos that had driven two falconers out of the field and by the time I got him he was no longer aggressive. I've been given several female Cooper's that were aggressive and most were not too difficult but one was a shocking exception and went for human flesh leg arm you name it.
Interesting how the pass gos reaches a plateau in taming. With pass Cooper's I've found the easier ones can be conditioned to just about anything after two or three years but introduce anything new and the transmitter better be in good form. So I guess we're talking about the same thing. Dr. Ken Tuttle in NAFA has written about the pass prairie and how they become imprint-like over the years.
I love imprinted tiercel prairies but the difference between individuals is almost unreal. The few are superb and and can be flown free off the fist if a person can tolerate some variety in the prey caught.
Harry.

hcmcelroy
06-04-2011, 02:41 PM
Keith,

Good to hear the imprinted male gos is less aggressive than the male Cooper's. That is the type of information I'm looking for. I've seen some serious aggression in the male Cooper's and yet others that were totally calm and reliable.
Over all I would say that my imprinted female Cooper's were not aggressive but not trustworthy because a few without warning might take a pass at your face.
When my hawks begin to move about indicating that they may want to fly I move them out to the mew because Cooper's especially can suddenly launch into the air and fly into a window. A broken neck ain't so attractive. Agreed that is the stage when when withdrawal accelerates and it is good to spend some time in the mew reading or perhaps drinking...
Here we have little choice but to reduce weight when they begin to fly because we have predators standing in line to kill baby hawks of any kind. At the first inclination the young hawks wants to fly out some distance ignoring the lure the weight must come down or the end is right around the corner. Last year my aplo falcon drove the resident RT to the bush at the foot of our hill and went in after it. I nearly had heart failure, jumped in the SUV and started down the hill in high gear when she appeared at my window. I took her in with trembling hand.
Yes, they mellow over the years. I wonder what mechanism influences that. Is the aggression in young hawks some sort of survival tactic?
Harry.

Saluqi
06-04-2011, 04:42 PM
For a good discussion on imprinting check this thread, it's a sticky in this forum:http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=284

joturley
06-04-2011, 06:01 PM
I think an imprint can show normal startle reflex and it isn't the same as a fear response (IMO); a startle reflex can be triggered by anything coming at it from overhead - for good reason - while the same object, coming in from ground (eye) level may not elicit that reaction, because it is not in the same threat context. I could be way off base, too <G>.

Steve - you didn't meet Cecelia, who may well be related to your chick; for a passage hawk, she's incredibly mellow. Trevor saw her just before she went up for the moult and was amazed how calm she was about everything. I did train her to the hood, and she is the best to hood of anything I've had since the RT, but I used the hood only for travel, nothing else. I hope this upcoming season finds her as acquiescent about everything as she was first time around - almost as good as an imprint - no screaming/head hunting <G>. /jo

schwartze
06-04-2011, 06:40 PM
I think an imprint can show normal startle reflex and it isn't the same as a fear response (IMO); a startle reflex can be triggered by anything coming at it from overhead - for good reason - while the same object, coming in from ground (eye) level may not elicit that reaction, because it is not in the same threat context. I could be way off base, too <G>.

Steve - you didn't meet Cecelia, who may well be related to your chick; for a passage hawk, she's incredibly mellow. Trevor saw her just before she went up for the moult and was amazed how calm she was about everything. I did train her to the hood, and she is the best to hood of anything I've had since the RT, but I used the hood only for travel, nothing else. I hope this upcoming season finds her as acquiescent about everything as she was first time around - almost as good as an imprint - no screaming/head hunting <G>. /jo


Hi Jo,

Glad you like your passage female. They are the obvious choice for snowshoe hare hawking.

I'm interested to see how the chamber-raised bird compares to the passage and imprint. Trevor's sounds like it's doing well with the Harris' hawk foster parents.

What date was your passage bird trapped at Mike's? Do you still have the red-tail?

Regards,

Steve

joturley
06-04-2011, 07:32 PM
The passage gos was taken the 3rd week of October. She turned into a nice hare hawk despite the limitations of our brutal winter last season.
The RT was released a couple of weeks ago - I just had some more surgery done (Monday - ouch!) and couldn't keep her on for a gopher season; same reason my HH is up for the moult - when I usually fly her most of the summer to fill the freezers.
I hope Phil is getting photos of the gos w/HH.
Let me know if you need bobwhite baggies later on. /jo

hcmcelroy
06-05-2011, 12:41 AM
Steve and Rob thanks for the weights. I've recorded them.
Jo I haven't heard of the startle reflex. I wonder when it is demonstrated with the young gos?
Hope you recover quickly form the surgery.

Harry.

goshawks00
06-05-2011, 07:52 AM
Couple more weights
female#2 18 days -572 grams
male #2 19 days -573 grams
Mich male 22 days+- 650 grams

keitht
06-05-2011, 10:29 AM
Barry:

Of the male and female that are 18 / 19 days old: Would there be any doubt which one is male and which one is female based on tarsus thickness?

And, is there any significant difference between the foot spans?

And lastly, is the "Michigan Male" from larger or the same sized stock?

I'm recording your weights as well. Good stuff. Thank you.

robruger1
06-05-2011, 11:06 AM
Day 18, 20.4 ounces or 575 grams. I can't believe she gained almost two full ounces in 24 hours. Amazing growth rate.

goshawks00
06-05-2011, 03:10 PM
Barry:

Of the male and female that are 18 / 19 days old: Would there be any doubt which one is male and which one is female based on tarsus thickness?

And, is there any significant difference between the foot spans?

And lastly, is the "Michigan Male" from larger or the same sized stock?

I'm recording your weights as well. Good stuff. Thank you.


Keith, it may be an unfair question to ask me... the answer for me and I'm sure some others on here would be a 99% certainty at that age... but that is gained from years of experiernce handling lots of them. Foot size is not a measureable I would bank on or tarsus either by it's self... It's a combination of a lot of individual things added together that tells the tale.

Like I said before foot/tarsus/ head shape combined will make you lean in one direction... Now then to round it out... I have spent thousnads over the years paying a reputable DNA lab to tell me what I have.:D I can't afford to sell you a female and have it turn out to be a male.. or vice versa.

As far as 'Thor" the Mich. male, at the nest the male seemed near female size. BUT, I was comparing him to her. It may be she was a smaller female. Hard to tell when they are reigning fire down on you and you are near 40' up a 12" diameter pine. My guess biog male average female, and one thing I look for is a very light vermiculated chest on both of them..

schwartze
06-05-2011, 03:33 PM
Mine weighed in at 478g today, ~14 days old. I'm leaning towards male based on physical characteristics.

The bird eats entirely on its own now, a good diet of ground quail, pigeon, and Richardson's ground squirrel, with sparrows and starlings or the odd duck or gamebird from last season tossed in.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/photo-1.jpg

Regards,

Steve

hcmcelroy
06-06-2011, 12:47 AM
Steve,

I have to admire your diet! Only the few would include such variety.

Harry.

schwartze
06-06-2011, 01:52 AM
Steve,

I have to admire your diet! Only the few would include such variety.

Harry.

Thanks, Harry, but that's the goshawk's diet. I survive strictly on hot dogs and Doritos.

Yes, I like a mix for the eyasses. Do you feed the quail you hawk? Are they a dark-ish meat like coturnix, or white like Californias?

Steve

goshawks00
06-06-2011, 07:37 AM
female and male#2 are gone as of yesterday... While the person picking up female #2 was here , we were talking about the tranistioning from food dish to lure. I got out my old small hawk lure to show him what I use and how I start them on it and decided to try Thor ( Mi male) with it. I tied a small piece on the lure and tossed it about a food away from him.. He sat there for awhile just looking at it, then got up and stiff legged walked over to it and ate it. I cued him with a whistle when he did. Reloaded a second piece and tossed it 3 feet away, he went right after it. Third toss about 4 foot, same thing, queing him when he goes with a whistle.After the new person left we did a couple more at 6 and 8 ft. then gave him his bowl of food while picking up the lure on the last one.. Yahoo the fun begins... he is ready for hack!
Today 23 days 668 grams

hcmcelroy
06-06-2011, 11:32 AM
Barry,

Thanks for the weight at 23 days I've recorded it.
The lure training sounds good to me. I normally intro the lure while they are still growing but to tell the truth I have completely forgotten it at times.
The hack sounds frightening!!! We had 3 goldens soaring over our house last week and I began to look for cover for any animal they may have selected but found nothing that would offer safety from 3 eagles. I've seen them team up.
Harry.

hcmcelroy
06-06-2011, 12:13 PM
Steve,

I feed the head, neck, liver, gizzard and heart of the quail to the hawk. The other part goes into the frying pan. I love quail fried with loads of spices.

The coturnix is the only quail I know that is migratory and has dark breast meat. There may be others I don't know but I've hawked quail of several species in a number of states and Mexico. They all are a delight and have different escape mechanisms and thus my life affair with them.

Harry.

goshawks00
06-06-2011, 01:21 PM
Barry,
.
The hack sounds frightening!!! We had 3 goldens soaring over our house last week and I began to look for cover for any animal they may have selected but found nothing that would offer safety from 3 eagles. I've seen them team up.
Harry.

That sounds like bad medicine... Hacking him out here, he will have the big rooster to worry about, along with our golden hen imprinted wild tom turkey.. Then once branching there will be multitudes of little enemies in the trees pestering him as he learns his wings. Mom birds are the worst along with the ever present red squirrels that seem to know there is one one to stop them from bothering him endlessly. Hacking a bird out isn't for the faint hearted and things can and sometimes do go wrong.. That said I've done 11 accips of 3 varieties w/o any accidents yet.

schwartze
06-06-2011, 05:32 PM
Mine was 509g this morning, ~15 days old. He was able to stand flat-footed for about 5 seconds before toppling over.

Steve

hcmcelroy
06-07-2011, 12:54 AM
Barry,

Is the turkey dangerous for hawks?

Great to hear 11 accipiters without a problem.

Harry.

goshawks00
06-07-2011, 04:48 AM
Barry,

Is the turkey dangerous for hawks?

Harry.

Harry I don't know if the turkey actually would but when you are a small hawk and can't defend yourself everything is a danger. The turkey isn't aggressive at all but I think if it found the hawk it may or possibly could do some serious damage .
Now then I can say this Karen's tribe of 10 guineas WILL attack the chick if they found him. I have routinely watched them circle and pester the grown goshawks when they are weathering on a Meng perch in the yard. Always just outside the reach of the goshawk, they will carry on hackles raised ( what little they have), bluff charging with the one behind the hawk trying to sneak in...not unlike wolves on big game will do. They have not made contact with the gos yet , but it will happen one day....and may result in gang violence. For now I am relegated to putting the hawk on a 6' ring perch.
Funny thing one day the guineas had circled the wagons and were pestering the gos when one of Karen's chickens walked up to see what the commotion was, and decided to walk to the other side of the ring... unfortunately it didn't get it and decided to walk across the circle rather than around... Oops!
I was about 15 foot away and was able to rescue the hen before any serious damage was done though she did limb for a while after that.

robruger1
06-07-2011, 08:17 AM
21.4 ounces or 607 grams. Weight gain seems to have slowed down.

goshawks00
06-07-2011, 09:12 AM
24 days- 688 grams. He likes his lure and spent 2 hours in the car going to andffrom the airport sending chciks to their new owners.. Today he gets the transmitter installed on his leg so we can start leaving him out more. I gave him a small leather ball , the kind kids kick around, with so now he starting to figure out what his feet are for..

hcmcelroy
06-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Steve,

I recall the guineas at my grandparents when a boy. They were deafening! And rather aggressive when they wished.
I have used a tame hack the past few years in Willcox and allowed the aplos to fly off some distance but here I like to keep the hawklets in sight at all times. There I flew them about one hour each morning in the tame hack.
My male gos is due Friday and I'll imprint and fly it away from this hill where so many raptors love to hang out. The three goldens slope soaring directly over the house last week were frightening. Once he is flying I'll keep careful tabs on him and fly down in the desert away from this hill. But come to think of it the closest place to fly is where I lost a gos to an eagle two seasons back.

Harry.

hcmcelroy
06-07-2011, 11:06 AM
Rob,

I should put dates on my records. I guess this is day 19 at 607 grams?

She is moving along!!!
Thanks,

Harry.

hcmcelroy
06-07-2011, 11:09 AM
Barry,

He gained 20 grams at day 24!!! That is impressive! I wonder when he will top out?

Harry.

passagejack
06-07-2011, 11:16 AM
Steve,

I feed the head, neck, liver, gizzard and heart of the quail to the hawk. The other part goes into the frying pan. I love quail fried with loads of spices.

The coturnix is the only quail I know that is migratory and has dark breast meat. There may be others I don't know but I've hawked quail of several species in a number of states and Mexico. They all are a delight and have different escape mechanisms and thus my life affair with them.

Harry.

Harry I too have had an on going love affair with quail ;) I plan to get back after them this fall in a big way! I've always had much respect for your passion for them. We must start a thread this fall on our endeavors towards them as well as a little history towards what they bring to the table. I've got some pretty funny stories. Your latest book pays great tribute to them. However not everyone has it and a thread geared towards "quail" could be useful for some? Great to hear about yours and others gos endeavors as well!

goshawks00
06-07-2011, 12:15 PM
Barry,

He gained 20 grams at day 24!!! That is impressive! I wonder when he will top out?

Harry.

Harry who knows... my guess and it's just a guess... he will top out at 730...fly hard at 690.. and end the season @ 700+ a little.. we'll see. I know his daddy was a big one. We have one guinea missing and on eggs some where. The last two years it was the same thing... both times she came home with 17 babies. This year there will be early baggies I thinkbeeer.

biskwisk
06-07-2011, 01:28 PM
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_5112.jpg
What a beautiful Gos, it looks like a Great white shark!

robruger1
06-07-2011, 02:14 PM
Rob,

I should put dates on my records. I guess this is day 19 at 607 grams?

She is moving along!!!
Thanks,

Harry.

Sorry Harry, she is 20 days old today. I'lll try to remember to put the age with the date.

schwartze
06-07-2011, 02:52 PM
This morning the gos weighed 560g, ~16 days old.

Looking at some of the numbers on here already, it appears to me that weight might be a better measure for determining age than for determining gender.

Steve

goshawks00
06-07-2011, 03:08 PM
it appears to me that weight might be a better measure for determining age than for determining gender.

Steve

Brilliant, something I said 82 posts agotoungeout

robruger1
06-07-2011, 03:26 PM
Something I have noticed with this bird. Her appetite has been much more erratic than my only other imprint. That was a female prairie falcon. She was hungry all the time and gained weight at a very stable rate. This goshawk has days when she doesn't really want to eat much but other days eats like a pig. I didn't post a weight yesterday because she ate very little on Sunday, and just maintained weight. She was sleeping alot but was much more active than normal between naps. Yesterday was a middle of the road day, she slept a bunch but was awake and active a bunch and gained an ounce. Today she has been awake alot and eating ALOT and should show a dramatic weight increase tomorrow. Is this just Goshawks or just my bird? Sunday morning she had grown 39 grams in the last 24 hours so she is capable of putting alot of weight on in a short period of time. Just kinda confused.

goshawks00
06-07-2011, 04:03 PM
Rob yes they can be very erratic esp at this age. I have often thought it may have to do with the amount of bone they eat , and how the bone is given. If their digestive trace is irritated they may cut back on their food, esp. if loaded down with to much small sharp bone . Once the system has digested the bone, their hunger may rebound and want a large intake to go on... Just thinking with no proof , but I do also notice intake varies day day sometimes.
.02

schwartze
06-07-2011, 04:09 PM
Brilliant, something I said 82 posts agotoungeout


Where? I don't see it.

How old would you say my goshawk is then, Barry, according to weight? How accurate do you think you could be using weight to determine age? Within 24 hours? It would be neat to really boil it down and know how much insight weight can provide regarding age. Then again it might just be simple to say "my goshawk is 560 grams old today"!

Regards,

Steve

hcmcelroy
06-07-2011, 07:36 PM
Jeremy,

No thread could compare with adventures of chasing quail daily. Yes, we could get a bit going about how they grace the table along with preparation.

Harry.

hcmcelroy
06-07-2011, 07:38 PM
Rob,

Many thanks, I'll put the date on the records too...

Harry.

hcmcelroy
06-07-2011, 07:41 PM
Steve,

Thanks 560 he is being well fed!

Hmmm age rather than gender...who ever knows in this game.

Harry.

goshawks00
06-07-2011, 08:08 PM
[QUOTE=schwartze;192503]Where? I don't see it.

Post 6 I wrote: Rob weight is not a very good indication of what sex a chick is , at least at this time..

You also wrote "How accurate do you think you could be using weight to determine age?"
I don't think you can be very accurate, as far as age goes... I do think there is a point--though admittedly blurry, where one could guess sex by weight , which is what Harry is driving at , I think... The point is by the time you get there(18-20 days) you should have pretty good idea already...

Then again w/o experience or lacking contact with those that may be able to help , it might take a while to know... Shoot I know a well known but un-named goshawk 'expert' that pulled a RS thinking he had a goshawk..dohh

schwartze
06-07-2011, 10:10 PM
[QUOTE=schwartze;192503]Where? I don't see it.

Post 6 I wrote: Rob weight is not a very good indication of what sex a chick is , at least at this time..

You also wrote "How accurate do you think you could be using weight to determine age?"
I don't think you can be very accurate, as far as age goes... I do think there is a point--though admittedly blurry, where one could guess sex by weight , which is what Harry is driving at , I think... The point is by the time you get there(18-20 days) you should have pretty good idea already...

Then again w/o experience or lacking contact with those that may be able to help , it might take a while to know... Shoot I know a well known but un-named goshawk 'expert' that pulled a RS thinking he had a goshawk..dohh


Oh, my mistake. By your reply I was under the impression that you had previously referenced using weight to determine age. Maybe it wouldn't work so well after all.

Regards,

Steve

hcmcelroy
06-08-2011, 11:22 AM
Steve,
One year long ago the G&F Dept. gave the president of the Az Fal Assn a nest of very small downies taken from some kids. We all gathered around to admire what was obviously 4 delightful Cooper's. We were thrilled but within a week their heads began to distort and we wondered what was going on! Our Cooper's developed into rather strange creatures ... Marsh hawks.

Agreed the person of experience would know gender of the gos by 18-20 days but take an example of the beginning austringer high in a tree in a strong wind (it always blows when climbing nests) as the female takes passes. He/she looks at the hawklets and pulls one carefully selecting a female and it turns out a male. We have taken care of this problem with Cooper's by weighing because by 14 days there is a marked difference between the genders. I'm seeking to make the selection mechanical. At some age and I'm only guessing at 20 days the determination can be made by anyone smart enough to read a lab balance or digital.
I'm collecting weights and so far it appears there are few female weights or as those from the poultry industry say hens.
Harry.

goshawks00
06-08-2011, 11:56 AM
Thor 25 days... 701 grams
He continues to improve with lure work. Coming up to 20 foot multiple times (5-6) for food . I think I will stop dish feeding and only do lure feeding starting tomorow...

Here's a picture of Ricky 2009 tame hacked imprint (60 days) with our Wirehaired Griffon... Gruff.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x301/bollette/RickyandGruff60days.jpg
__________________
"you believe you understand what I said, do realize what you heard is not what I meant"
Barry

http://www.nafex.net//images/misc/progress.gif

robruger1
06-08-2011, 02:57 PM
Day 21 23.3 ounces or 660 grams. Big jump in the last 24 hours. 1.9 ounce gain 53 gram gain.

schwartze
06-08-2011, 03:15 PM
Mine hit 609g this morning at ~17 days old.

Here's a photo of his tail development. Perhaps others have some input regarding his age, as his weight seems to be a bit ahead of the curve.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/photo-5.jpg

Steve

goshawks00
06-08-2011, 03:35 PM
Steve,
I currently have three chicks all males ages 17 , 14 ,12 days old, I know they are the right ages as I was there... I took them out of the hatcher while still wet... None of them have even started to break out of their sheathings... Give me a bit of time and I'll post pics /weights of each.
Barry

goshawks00
06-08-2011, 04:19 PM
This is what I mean about not knowing a birds true age and then trying to guess it's age by weight... If you can believe photos and growing development sequences , then you can see there is a big difference in tail development of your 17 day old and the photos of a known 17 day old, something like about what i think is 3-4 days. Weights are also pretty wide for 17 days old, of mine and several others recorder this year in threads here.
Here is a pic of a 17 day male goshawk..512 grams

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x301/bollette/IMG_1985Medium.jpg

Here is a pic of a 14 day old male goshawk: 369 grams

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x301/bollette/IMG_1986Medium.jpg

schwartze
06-08-2011, 05:04 PM
Thanks Barry. With all of the info from you and Rob, I am going to adjust to my best guess of 20 days old today. It's funny that it has worked out this way. The weekend we pulled the two eyasses, we estimated age. A few days after that I began thinking that my age estimations had been high by 2 or 3 days, so I adjusted then. Sure as heck 10 days later here I am back at the age I originally thought. It's all quite confusing!

Harry, I can certainly appreciate what you are getting at by charting weight gain. Pinpointing the age of growth rate deviation between genders would be very helpful for falconers unable to use DNA or some vast experience.

Regards,

Steve

goshawks00
06-08-2011, 05:40 PM
Steve, it gets worse /more confusing , when you start factoring in goshawks from different areas. Some of the western goshawks from the mountains will vary quite a bit because of their some what smaller size... That and those rainy forest goshawks would really confuse a guyconfusedd

robruger1
06-08-2011, 06:44 PM
Some of the western goshawks from the mountains will vary quite a bit because of their some what smaller size...

That is what mine will be. A male came out of the same nest as mine last year and flew at 18 ounces. The nest was up near the peak of the cascade mountain range very close to Mt. Hood.

schwartze
06-08-2011, 08:11 PM
A male came out of the same nest as mine last year and flew at 18 ounces.

Whoa!

Steve

hcmcelroy
06-09-2011, 01:25 AM
Steve, Rob & Barry,

Thanks for the weights. I'll organize my notes one day and perhaps come to some conclusion or will it be confusion?

Harry.

schwartze
06-09-2011, 02:45 PM
Here's one for you Harry...

My goshawk gained -1g in the last 24 hours. The day before yesterday he ate a lot, mostly fresh ground squirrel with plenty of fat. I expected a giant weight gain but it was nothing out of the ordinary. What did change was his appetite. He ate very little yesterday and this morning at normal weighing time was 608g. With the age adjustment he's about 21 days old today.

Quick question for those planning to tame hack their goshawks...

How do you continue socialization during the hack if the bird is out on its own all day? A friend here tame hacked a Cooper's last year, and while she was nice and tame, she was not being exposed to certain things during the hack period and subsequently had some fear issues during the early stages of entering. She didn't like vehicles near where she was being flown, was afraid of airplanes flying over the hawking field miles in the sky, and she didn't do well with other people around. I understand that these things can likely be overcome with good weight management, but surely exposure to these things daily during the pre-penning stage (hack time) would have helped also.

Regards,

Steve

schwartze
06-09-2011, 02:47 PM
A pic from last evening.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_4891.jpg

Regards,

Steve

robruger1
06-09-2011, 03:04 PM
My hawk gained nothing in the last 24 hours because she didn't eat much yesterday after gaining 1.9 ounces in the previous 24 hours. I've been feeding ground pigeon mostly lately.

Interesting pic. My bird has alot more feather developement and she's 22 days old.

Saluqi
06-09-2011, 03:07 PM
Here's one for you Harry...

My goshawk gained -1g in the last 24 hours. The day before yesterday he ate a lot, mostly fresh ground squirrel with plenty of fat. I expected a giant weight gain but it was nothing out of the ordinary. What did change was his appetite. He ate very little yesterday and this morning at normal weighing time was 608g. With the age adjustment he's about 21 days old today.

Quick question for those planning to tame hack their goshawks...

How do you continue socialization during the hack if the bird is out on its own all day? A friend here tame hacked a Cooper's last year, and while she was nice and tame, she was not being exposed to certain things during the hack period and subsequently had some fear issues during the early stages of entering. She didn't like vehicles near where she was being flown, was afraid of airplanes flying over the hawking field miles in the sky, and she didn't do well with other people around. I understand that these things can likely be overcome with good weight management, but surely exposure to these things daily during the pre-penning stage (hack time) would have helped also.

Regards,

Steve

In the summer of 2007 I tamed hacked a female that I pulled from a nest here, starting at about 37 days of age she was out all day while I was at work. She spent most of her time lounging and sleeping in all sorts of places around the yard. As time went on her range expanded and she flew around the neighborhood quite a bit. She always came around when the family was hanging outside, she'd come over and just to be with us. Nights she spent in the house so socialization was never an issue. She was out for 27 days, her last day at hack I came home to track her to a neighbor's chicken coop to find her sitting contently on a large barred rock hen.

hcmcelroy
06-09-2011, 03:14 PM
Steve,

When they don't eat in an orderly fashion I begin to worry but it happens often so I should just relax and allow time to pass.

I wonder when your friend's Cooper's was pulled? Was it a young downy or near the 18 day period when they begin to imprint?

As you know the imprinted cooper's is almost frantic to withdraw and perhaps this one withdrew partially during the hack?

The imprinted gos I have had did not withdraw nearly as easily as the Cooper's.

Harry.

goshawks00
06-09-2011, 04:03 PM
Quick question for those planning to tame hack their goshawks...

How do you continue socialization during the hack if the bird is out on its own all day?
Regards,

Steve

Steve please take this with a grain of salt... There is no 'recipe' in hacking goshawks... There are as many ways as there are souls brave enough to try it... Shoot I've hacked one some times two every year since 2000 except last year because of back surgery... and each has been different. That said there are things that seem to have common soil.

I've been tempted to do a journal here about Thor's hack... we'll see. At 26 days really he's already being hacked out some each day and has been for a week. In fact because it's raining here , he is wandering around the house. The wife just came and got me asking where's Thor. After a ten minute search we found him, he had jump up one step, went down the hall and was sleeping under our bed... Man I need to start putting a trans on him:D

First I'll try and answer your question...how to continue socialization while at hack... First and fore most they need to learn what a lure is .. that is your key, in fact the main key of a successful hack.. If he will come to the lure, you can many times a day interact with him. There is no reason not to take him up sporadically , and in fact it does work to your benefit later on as he begins to be more independent. At about 30 days he will be jessed... and as Paul said, and he is brought in at night to spend the evening in the house , sometimes tied to his bow and nest box but usually just given free reign, as long as he stays out of trouble. Also there is no reason once he knows what a bow is, to not take him places with you. Trips to soccer games, the feed mill. etc. Move him via a basket he can come out of at his will.
I think one of the biggest issues that come about is getting into a routine as far as just letting him go... It works great for the bird , but as you noted you do/will lose connection and socialization... That's why I advocate bringing him in from hack with no rhyme or reason... Sometimes leash him to his bow after eating , some times not. Some times go for car rides some times not... some times big meals on the lure , some times just a tidbit.. There is a lot that could be filled in between these lines , but I will labor, in detail, that some other time. I hope that, at least, starts to answer your question.

goshawks00
06-09-2011, 04:09 PM
Interesting pic. My bird has alot more feather developement and she's 22 days old.

I thought the same thing, Steve can you show a full back shot?
Thanks

schwartze
06-09-2011, 05:47 PM
Here ya go.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv337/schwartze/_MG_4903.jpg

Thanks for the thoughts on the hack. It's tempting to try, but might entail more complications for me than is worth.

My friend's Cooper's was taken at ~8 days old, Harry. Finding optimum hunting weight was a real challenge with her, and she showed a fair bit of aggression towards the falconer.

Steve

hcmcelroy
06-09-2011, 07:21 PM
Steve,

Another nice photo, thanks!

No question the Cooper's can be difficult to live with once imprinted. I have had little aggression with my imprints but it does happen now and again. For my part the question is always there will they suddenly take a pass at your face and then never again? Protective eye ware is suggested.

The hack is far too dangerous here. The eagles cruise through our front yard as if they owned the place!!! As a result I fly young birds in the open desert (not on this hill) in a form of the tame hack each morning for about an hour. They are hard penned, down to weight, especially responsive to the lure as Barry says and able to fly well before release with transmitter singing. It works well with accipiters but involves considerable risk with the aplo because they range out so far.

Harry.

robruger1
06-09-2011, 08:06 PM
Here's pics from just now.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0446.jpghttp://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0447.jpghttp://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0448.jpg

schwartze
06-09-2011, 08:51 PM
Here's pics from just now.

Looks great, Rob. Have you begun lure-feeding yet, or is the lure left bare and in sight as per the recipe's recommendations?

Regards,

Steve

robruger1
06-09-2011, 08:53 PM
Just recently started feeding off of it.

Question to Barry, looking at mine are you still thinking female?

schwartze
06-09-2011, 08:59 PM
What a beautiful Gos, it looks like a Great white shark!

Agreed, Justin. What's really cool is to see the imprint's down bear a resemblance to the well-defined, two-toned adult plumage. The back and wings are covered in grey down, the legs and underparts are white. I will try to capture this in a photo or two soon.

Steve

goshawks00
06-10-2011, 05:33 PM
Thor -27 days 767 grams, meals on lure..

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x301/bollette/IMG_1980Medium.jpg

goshawks00
06-11-2011, 08:27 AM
Thor 28 days 768 grams
Thought I'd share an interesting observation. After feeding Thor I took the food trays into the other gos chicks in their room to feed them. While doing so I heard Thor tromp tromp tromp, down the hall and come into the room. Not unusual as he spends quite a bit of time in there laying around or just standing there watching them. He also has no issue with them and will climb into their containers and take a snooze with them... There isn't an individual he chooses and will indiscriminately join any one.
After cleaning up the mess from cutting up food I went in to check on their progress. Thor was standing over by the 12 day old which self feeds very well. As I watched , Thor leaned in took a bite of food and then offered and fed the chick the bite. He did this 4-5 different times showing no interest in eating it himself but was set on feeding the chick.
This is the first time I have ever saw something like this and find it amusing and entirely fascinating that he would do this... maybe his instincts are closer to the surface than I thought.

sevristh
06-11-2011, 08:49 AM
Barry,

That's pretty cool! Next time we want to see video of it though! toungeout

keitht
06-11-2011, 12:01 PM
Thor was standing over by the 12 day old which self feeds very well. As I watched , Thor leaned in took a bite of food and then offered and fed the chick the bite. He did this 4-5 different times showing no interest in eating it himself but was set on feeding the chick.
This is the first time I have ever saw something like this and find it amusing and entirely fascinating that he would do this... maybe his instincts are closer to the surface than I thought.

Barry: What an interesting and fascinating observation! The only thing is - it leaves you with more questions than answers.

goshawks00
06-11-2011, 12:58 PM
Barry,

That's pretty cool! Next time we want to see video of it though! toungeout


What a brilliant idea... We are not all visual learners so it never crossed my mind... that and I don't have a way to do videohelpp

goshawks00
06-11-2011, 01:04 PM
Barry: What an interesting and fascinating observation! The only thing is - it leaves you with more questions than answers.
That is so true Keith.. Every male goshawk(4) I have given eggs tohas incubated them by themselves long enough to hatch them. Thast and they CAN count. One egg- no , two eggs- no, three eggs-some did, four all did. So... there are some instincts that are manifested in captivity that you don't hear about being used in the wild.

schwartze
06-11-2011, 02:19 PM
Hi Harry,

June 10 - 620g
June 11 - 664g

Barry, that's a really neat observation.

Steve

jfseaman
06-13-2011, 11:34 AM
That is so true Keith.. Every male goshawk(4) I have given eggs tohas incubated them by themselves long enough to hatch them. Thast and they CAN count. One egg- no , two eggs- no, three eggs-some did, four all did. So... there are some instincts that are manifested in captivity that you don't hear about being used in the wild.
Really cool.

Can they differentiate color/size of eggs?

goshawks00
06-13-2011, 12:29 PM
Really cool.

Can they differentiate color/size of eggs?

I can't say for sure... We gave them white chicken eggs about the same size, and they accepted them w/o issue... several of the males after hatching their chicken eggs, were given 3-4 day old goshawk chicks are were in fact very good parents for the few days they were allowed to keep, and feed them. For sure each male had very strong nesting and parental presence

jfseaman
06-13-2011, 12:53 PM
I can't say for sure... We gave them white chicken eggs about the same size, and they accepted them w/o issue... several of the males after hatching their chicken eggs, were given 3-4 day old goshawk chicks are were in fact very good parents for the few days they were allowed to keep, and feed them. For sure each male had very strong nesting and parental presence
that answers my question

hcmcelroy
06-13-2011, 02:21 PM
Barry,

I guess we can't live long enough to know the accipiters...always something new. Thor feeding the chicks!!! Wow!

We flew over and picked up my little mountain gos ... parents from Colorado mtns. so they are small.

Charlie's little plane did not appreciate the weather so we used rental cars some both on the trip over and back. Good thing I brought a whole pigeon.

At 20 days he weighed 397 g on a lab balance. And I checked its accuracy. His pens were about 1" out wing tips.

Today at 21 days he appears to have imprinted or going through the imprinting stage? What do you think Barry? He stands and thumps about on shaky legs. He sleeps sitting up, and appears quite happy to greet me or the dogs. He plays with my fingers, preens, rouses freely. But if approached too quickly he stands and sings...

We took him down to feed the horses today and one sniffed him repeatedly but he only watched with out fear. I'm carrying him around with me for a few days just to make sure of the imprinting...who me paranoid??? But better safe than sorry.

His imprinting box is up on a table at a large picture window where he can see birds and rabbits at the feeder. Today I had him out for a bit of sun and a quail walked right up to us at the feeder and he didn't take his eyes off that quail. I had to control myself from shouting out HO! HO! HO!

Harry.

goshawks00
06-13-2011, 03:03 PM
[QUOTE=hcmcelroy;193148]
We flew over and picked up my little mountain gos ... parents from Colorado mtns. so they are small

At 20 days he weighed 397 g on a lab balance. And I checked its accuracy. His pens were about 1" out wing tips.

Today at 21 days he appears to have imprinted or going through the imprinting stage? What do you think Barry? He stands and thumps about on shaky legs.

Congratulations Harry, he does seem small, is he wild taken or bred by someone in Co.? I've never done it, but still, I think I have enough proof to say, there is a very , very little bit of size difference between a small goshawks heart and a larger one.. That and size really is just one of the very many things at have anything to do with success.

Fast movements can scare the bejeus out of any of them, and he seems pretty well adjusted if he handled all that already.

Shoot , today, as every day in the past because Thor is 'free ranging" in the house, Karen was sweeping up, feather dust, Some times after he's sat awhile and gets up and walks away, he looks like the character on Peanuts.. you know the one... Pig pen, with a cloud of dust swirling around him as he moves. Anyway, rather than use the vacuum cleaner like she always does , she was using a small red handed broom with red whiskers... MAN!! I thought the devil had him the way he was carrying on... Standing as tall as he could, wings spread wide open, showing how big he wanted you to believe he was, he was in full display... cackling like a sailor. Once she was done, he just as quickly , laid down on the floor and commenced to make another pile of dust, as if nothing happened!!

He is now wearing his hack transmitter minus the battery without issue.

Good luck with your new charge.. got a name for him yet? Thor has several new names now..unfortunately this is a family site so ...well... he will remain Thor.

hcmcelroy
06-13-2011, 07:16 PM
Barry,

This one was bred by Richard Brunette near Denver.

I only fly quail so small is no problem. One day I'll try a small female because they all seem to have a less challenging personality.

He has to be given cred for clearing the nest tub!

Normally I see how they fly before attaching a name...

Harry.

robruger1
06-13-2011, 07:29 PM
My bird is at 25.6 ounces or 726 grams, seems weight gain has majorly slowed down. 26 days old today.

goshawks00
06-13-2011, 09:51 PM
Thor 30 days-769 grams spent a lot of time outside , mostly just sitting around, withsome walking in the flowers along the driveway.

joturley
06-13-2011, 09:56 PM
Anyway, rather than use the vacuum cleaner like she always does , she was using a small red handed broom with red whiskers... MAN!! I thought the devil had him the way he was carrying on... Standing as tall as he could, wings spread wide open, showing how big he wanted you to believe he was, he was in full display... cackling like a sailor.
*******
My female imprint at an early age decided that all things red or orange were the devil incarnate. This included small things like a detergent bottle, right up to red trucks. She never got over it. /jo

robruger1
06-13-2011, 10:05 PM
So far the only thing that has freaked my bird is the ceiling fan. It can be set on any speed and she's fine but if you turn it off she freaks right as its slowing down before it stops. Only when its going really slow is it a problem.

goshawks00
06-14-2011, 12:25 PM
Thor can fly!!
31 days 766 grams.... He's a branchin'

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x301/bollette/IMG_1994Medium.jpg


Notice the prunings under the chair...he's hard at work whittling down his feathers

schwartze
06-14-2011, 12:49 PM
So far the only thing that has freaked my bird is the ceiling fan. It can be set on any speed and she's fine but if you turn it off she freaks right as its slowing down before it stops. Only when its going really slow is it a problem.

Rob, that's too funny. Not sure if you caught my mention of ceiling fans in post #50, but my first goshawk was exactly as you describe.

Steve

goshawkr
06-14-2011, 02:11 PM
So far the only thing that has freaked my bird is the ceiling fan. It can be set on any speed and she's fine but if you turn it off she freaks right as its slowing down before it stops. Only when its going really slow is it a problem.

Hawks, like all other animals including humans, have some pre-wired templates in their head that represent danger to them. When the fan is over head, and rotating at just the right speed, its reminding him of an arial predator coming after him. When it speeds up or slows below that point, its not matching his template. The reaction is not disimilar to how a person will sometimes jump in alarm when a rope or an extension cord moves in a way reminisent of a snake, athough usually the person rapidly realises that the rope is not a snake...

The instinct is only the impulse to react or feel a certain way, but experience can fine tune that impulse. You can get to the point where your hawk will tolerate the fan when its in the "danger" speed zone.

You need to be really careful though - goshawks are very much creatures of fear. They are really motivated by avoiding fear, and really pay attention to scarry things. Its not only possible, but quite easy for your young goshawk to link an association from something else to the scarry fan and transfer its fear of the fan to that item. Once made, those links are very difficult to break. Be doubly cautious about introducing new stuff to him when the fan is in the scarry mode until he is completely comfortable with it.

Any time your goshawk (or other accipiter) is scared for any reason you are treading on dangerous mental turf.

Speaking of these instinctive mental templates - one that I have seen in all the goshawks I raised was actually a bit dangerous. For some reason, the rails of a railroad match the template for "branch to sit on" much better than actual tree branches do, and when my hawks were first hitting the field I had a heck of a time keeping them from perching on the rail lines I regularly hunted by. They will often come out of a perfect tree branch because the rail looks more branch like to them. This was particularly frustrating because some of these rail lines see a train go by every 20-30 minutes, and even without the danger involved they have a tough time seeing game when they are on the ground.

goshawks00
06-14-2011, 03:13 PM
Speaking of these instinctive mental templates - one that I have seen in all the goshawks I raised was actually a bit dangerous. For some reason, the rails of a railroad match the template for "branch to sit on" much better than actual tree branches do, and when my hawks were first hitting the field I had a heck of a time keeping them from perching on the rail lines I regularly hunted by. They will often come out of a perfect tree branch because the rail looks more branch like to them. This was particularly frustrating because some of these rail lines see a train go by every 20-30 minutes, and even without the danger involved they have a tough time seeing game when they are on the ground.


Now that IS interesting... after twenty years worth of imprint goshawks, I find out this nugget of wisdom. I will be destroying this post as soon as I'm done writing this... as I do not want my goshawks to know that not only have they missed their ancestral calling, and are missing this genetic link, but also, it seems, do not have it as a recessive gene, and the ability to pass it on... toungeout

goshawkr
06-14-2011, 03:42 PM
Now that IS interesting... after twenty years worth of imprint goshawks, I find out this nugget of wisdom. I will be destroying this post as soon as I'm done writing this... as I do not want my goshawks to know that not only have they missed their ancestral calling, and are missing this genetic link, but also, it seems, do not have it as a recessive gene, and the ability to pass it on... toungeout

Are you telling me that this is something pecular to washington goshawks (although one of those who had this "problem" as a youngster was bred by the Brounottes in Colorado)? Or maybe its something peculiar about Washington trees that they dont look inviting enough to goshawks and send them looking for rail lines.

goshawks00
06-14-2011, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=goshawkr;193255]Are you telling me that this is something pecular to washington goshawks (although one of those who had this "problem" as a youngster was bred by the Brounottes in Colorado) (QUOTE]

I'm not sure... I do know of a goshawk that was raised next to the local tracks in town, that watched trains come and go all day... One day while hawking next to those tracks and missing a rabbit landed on top of a train switching boxcars... About the time it did the train started leaving town, and the falconer had to jump in his car and race to the next crossing to lure his hawk down , as it slowly went by...
So who knows maybe there is some deep seated connection... Hmmm ... I think maybe that was a western bird also, but of what persuasion I'm not sure...

robruger1
06-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Pics from last night and today. 27 days old today.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0450.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0451.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0452.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0453.jpg
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0454.jpg

rocgwp
06-19-2011, 06:50 PM
Any updates?

robruger1
06-21-2011, 03:07 PM
Sorry, been busy. I'll try to upload some pics tonight. 34 days old and seems to have competely stopped growing at about 26 ounces. Everyone that has seen pics of the head has said female but the weight height and 3 1/2 inch foot measurment seems to imply male.

robruger1
06-27-2011, 10:08 PM
Ok, drum roll..........We have a male. For the last week the bird has been floating between 25-26 ounces. Falkor is his name. It is Norse for "Guardian of the People."

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0469.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0473.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/robruger1/IMAG0472.jpg

goshawks00
06-27-2011, 10:26 PM
He looks great, what is his training regime... Tethered during the day , free lofted, hacked? Flying yet? 720+ is a nice weight ...

robruger1
06-27-2011, 10:30 PM
Tied down during the day. When I get home I try to let him roam, as he is branching hard, as much as possible. I don't have the nerve to try hacking this close to downtown and in such a tightly packed neighborhood. He does come to the lure but ungarnished. I CR him whenever he pays any attention to it. It, itself, has never had meat on it in front of him. Still has a very sweet disposition. HEAVY socialization.

goshawks00
06-27-2011, 10:35 PM
Good startthumbsupp

schwartze
06-28-2011, 12:42 AM
Hi Rob,

He looks great. Who made your braided jesses?

Regards,

Steve

robruger1
06-28-2011, 12:43 AM
Can't remember who, I won them.

schwartze
06-28-2011, 12:53 AM
They're made by Burt Loessburg's oldest son, BJ. He does a great job. I have a few sets, was just curious if you knew where they were from.

My gos tipped the scale at 868g today. He looks like yours in development but maybe a tad lighter in colouration. Have you done any weight management yet, or is yours eating all he wants?

Regards,

Steve

robruger1
06-28-2011, 12:58 AM
No way they came from him. I won them at Danny Ertsgaards quail pluck and there is no way he'd get anything from anyone associated with Burt. He is a hated man in Oregon.

My bird eats all he wants. And yes he is pretty dark.

hcmcelroy
06-28-2011, 03:38 AM
Rob,

My boy Quixote was 35 days today but not as advanced as yours with the feather growth. He wanted some elevation today and went to the back of a chair. No training as yet and still offering a full feed twice per day. Totally tame of course.

Harry.

goshawkr
06-28-2011, 11:38 AM
No way they came from him. I won them at Danny Ertsgaards quail pluck and there is no way he'd get anything from anyone associated with Burt. He is a hated man in Oregon.

My bird eats all he wants. And yes he is pretty dark.

They look like the gear that Steve Layman makes. There are a few people who have copied his design with the braided knot, but no one else that I have seen makes the huge "easy to hold onto" jess slits, and it looks like the set in the photo has those. They also look like spectra, which is another trade mark of his. Although its hard to tell whether its spectra, dacron or nylon just from a photo that isnt focused on the jesses.

goshawks00
06-28-2011, 12:10 PM
I don't have the nerve to try hacking this close to downtown and in such a tightly packed neighborhood. He does come to the lure but ungarnished.

Rob I helped a couple guys in your situation with their goshawks. There are several ways you could still hack him... It all starts with total lure response. He needs to know the lure = food. Once that is established and if you don't feel comfortable try him in the yard for several feedings. At that point find a place where you would feel comfortable turning him loose for a few hours... could be a park, a farmer's place , etc any place with lots of trees and little people traffic. Turn him loose and come back in a couple hours to retrieve him. It sound scary but , then again I feel that way about anyone swimming in the ocean with all them man eating sharks swimming around just looking for their next mealtoungeout

BTW don't forget the transmitter...

robruger1
06-28-2011, 11:43 PM
Advice regarding jump boxes for imprint goshawks?

FredFogg
06-28-2011, 11:47 PM
Advice regarding jump boxes for imprint goshawks?

This jump box was used with goshawks for years by the Roy Dewitt.

http://www.georgiafalconryassociation.com/Howto/jumpbox.htm

rocgwp
07-13-2011, 06:28 PM
Any updates?

robruger1
07-13-2011, 09:13 PM
The jumpbox is working well so far. He hardpenned and loves his lure. I haven't started reducing weight yet but he already has good lure response.

hcmcelroy
07-14-2011, 09:54 AM
Rob,

Your gos is hard penned good to hear.

How long will you wait to reduce weight and when will you start on one meal per day?

Harry.

robruger1
07-14-2011, 02:59 PM
He's already on one meal a day but its a whole quail on the lure and when he's done the remains are left with him in the chamber. I figured I'd give him a week or two before weight reduction.

robruger1
07-14-2011, 09:43 PM
Well, I have an update. I had the gos out on the perch in the front yard today eating off the lure. Some people came walking by walking a dog. I didn't notice until too late that the dog wasn't leashed. It rushed the gos, I jumped up and dove in, the dog owners jumped on him and the dog never made contact with the bird but he was bating like crazy and and chittering like mad. I picked him up and took him inside and decided to hood him to try to calm him down. He was still freaking so I took him into the bathroom where it was dark with the door cracked just a touch so I could just barely see. I got the hood on him and as soon as I tightened the braces he just went limp. It was instant like he got shot. I figured he was acting like a fresh trapped RT after being hooded and just hanging. After a brief moment I realized he was TOO limp. I took off the hood and he seemed to be still breathing but barely and his eyes open a crack. He then stopped breathing and his eyes rolled back into his head and he was gone.

I know that the highs in falconry are supposed to outweigh the lows, but damn it feels like its been a long time since I had a high. I may take a break for a while..........

Squirrelhawkin
07-14-2011, 09:46 PM
sorry to hear this

goshawks00
07-14-2011, 09:58 PM
Oh No!!!!!!!!!!I'm so sorry to hear this...

skooky20
07-14-2011, 10:22 PM
man that sucks

ikcus
07-14-2011, 10:31 PM
Sorry man.

rocgwp
07-14-2011, 11:10 PM
That stinks! Sorry to hear it...

lupine
07-15-2011, 01:26 AM
F***! Rob, buddy, I'm so sorry! Call me when you feel like ranting. Dammit! He was a great bird, and you were doing so well with him. Don't give up...remember, you'd have kicked my ass if I gave up, and though I might need to bring friends, your ass is toast if you do.

BestBeagler
07-15-2011, 07:02 AM
Man thats a just awful. I'm sorry...

JeffNH
07-15-2011, 09:57 AM
Truly sorry for your loss...been there and it hurts like hell...

hcmcelroy
07-15-2011, 10:11 AM
Rob,

Sad to hear ... I know the feeling all too well...

Harry.

JRedig
07-15-2011, 03:17 PM
My stomach turned in knots reading this, sorry rob.

goshawkr
07-15-2011, 03:22 PM
Well, I have an update. I had the gos out on the perch in the front yard today eating off the lure. Some people came walking by walking a dog. I didn't notice until too late that the dog wasn't leashed. It rushed the gos, I jumped up and dove in, the dog owners jumped on him and the dog never made contact with the bird but he was bating like crazy and and chittering like mad. I picked him up and took him inside and decided to hood him to try to calm him down. He was still freaking so I took him into the bathroom where it was dark with the door cracked just a touch so I could just barely see. I got the hood on him and as soon as I tightened the braces he just went limp. It was instant like he got shot. I figured he was acting like a fresh trapped RT after being hooded and just hanging. After a brief moment I realized he was TOO limp. I took off the hood and he seemed to be still breathing but barely and his eyes open a crack. He then stopped breathing and his eyes rolled back into his head and he was gone.

I know that the highs in falconry are supposed to outweigh the lows, but damn it feels like its been a long time since I had a high. I may take a break for a while..........

wow - that blows my mind. I cant imagine what the cause of death would be, unless the dog made more contact than you thought.

That really sucks....

robruger1
07-15-2011, 03:33 PM
I thought maybe it got so freaked out it maybe had a heart attack? I checked him out pretty well after he passed to check to see if maybe there was contact, but he doesn't have a scratch on him. It was so sudden when he went limp and it was like wet noodle limp. I pulled the hood back off and he was attempting very shallow breaths a few times and his eyes were barely open. Then everything stopped and his eyes rolled back. One thing I found interesting was that while I was checking him out it seemed that rigamortise(spelling?) set in with a very few short minutes and he was very stiff. Legs went out tight and wings and neck. I've hunted my whole life and have never seen anything go so rigid so quickly. In the end it doesn't really matter because it was my own poor desicion in perching the bird in the front yard that killed it.frus)

pj_elia
07-15-2011, 04:07 PM
Rob,

Sorry to hear this. My brother relayed a story to me from a well known and long time falconer up in Maine about a gos or goshawks getting scared to death.

goshawks00
07-15-2011, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=goshawkr;197568]wow - that blows my mind. I cant imagine what the cause of death would be,

Possible strangulation ?... Having just eaten or being in the process of eating, when this all happened,then being hooded, he may have regurgitated some food then strangled, or inhaled that regurgitated food down the wrong pipe ... Sorry just guessing, but I saw something similar to that happen many years ago.

Saluqi
07-15-2011, 04:22 PM
Sorry Rob.

goshawkr
07-15-2011, 04:26 PM
I thought maybe it got so freaked out it maybe had a heart attack? I checked him out pretty well after he passed to check to see if maybe there was contact, but he doesn't have a scratch on him. It was so sudden when he went limp and it was like wet noodle limp. I pulled the hood back off and he was attempting very shallow breaths a few times and his eyes were barely open. Then everything stopped and his eyes rolled back. One thing I found interesting was that while I was checking him out it seemed that rigamortise(spelling?) set in with a very few short minutes and he was very stiff. Legs went out tight and wings and neck. I've hunted my whole life and have never seen anything go so rigid so quickly. In the end it doesn't really matter because it was my own poor desicion in perching the bird in the front yard that killed it.frus)

Rob,

Its essential that you give yourself permission to be human and make mistakes. Most times, its only a matter of luck the makes the difference between a tragedy like what happened to you and a minor mistake. I think this is probably one of those times.

Feeding the hawk in your front yard was likely a good move, because its a great way to socialize the young hawk. You just got very unlucky with your timing.

When I relayed the story to my wife, her first thought was scared to death - and that sounds pretty plausable.

While in the situation, hooding was on obvious move to mitigate the problem, its possible that put him over the edge - either by increasing the stess just enough that he couldnt take it, or by contributing to the strangulation that Barry was suspecting.

Anyway - anaylze so you dont repeat the mistake.... give yourself permission to make mistakes.... accept what was outside your control (like the @#$%#@ walking their dog off leash).... grieve for a while.... and then get back to it.

Tanner
07-15-2011, 04:29 PM
A friend of mine has a saying "Falconry, it'll make you want to quit". I know I feel like that on a regular basis. But you don't quit, you keep flying birds. Sorry for your loss and here's to better times man.

goshawkr
07-15-2011, 05:01 PM
wow - that blows my mind. I cant imagine what the cause of death would be,

Possible strangulation ?... Having just eaten or being in the process of eating, when this all happened,then being hooded, he may have regurgitated some food then strangled, or inhaled that regurgitated food down the wrong pipe ... Sorry just guessing, but I saw something similar to that happen many years ago.

This makes sense - especially hoods can cause strangulation when a hawk casts in them if the beak opening isnt just right.

jfseaman
07-17-2011, 02:59 AM
Really sorry to hear it Rob.

I hope you get back on the horse soon.

All the best

keitht
07-17-2011, 07:13 AM
I've seen this before, but only once and many years ago. But never with an imprint.