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Saluqi
07-06-2011, 09:57 AM
See the NAFA website for links to the federal register where the USFWS is seeking comments on abatement and eagle propagation regulations.

http://www.n-a-f-a.com/members/MemberNews.htm

If someone has direct links to the federal register where these may be viewed please post them, thanks.

AK Rev
07-06-2011, 10:06 AM
Thanks Paul. I also posted this to the IEAA list.

Lowachi
07-06-2011, 10:15 AM
See the NAFA website for links to the federal register where the USFWS is seeking comments on abatement and eagle propagation regulations.

http://www.n-a-f-a.com/members/MemberNews.htm

If someone has direct links to the federal register where these may be viewed please post them, thanks.

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-06/pdf/2011-16877.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-06/pdf/2011-16877.pdf). as per LarryDickerson

wyodjm
07-06-2011, 11:12 AM
www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-06/pdf/2011-16877.pdf (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-06/pdf/2011-16877.pdf). as per LarryDickerson

Yes, that is the direct link to the Federal Register. Instructions for commenting are on this page.

sevristh
07-06-2011, 11:20 AM
To add to these links, here is one that goes straight to the online comment form for eagle prop: http://www.regulations.gov/#!submitComment;D=FWS-R9-MB-2011-0020-0001

And here is one for the abatement regulations: http://www.regulations.gov/#!submitComment;D=FWS-R9-MB-2009-0045-0001 (http://www.regulations.gov/#%21submitComment;D=FWS-R9-MB-2009-0045-0001)

sevristh
07-06-2011, 11:24 AM
I have a few concerns regarding these two topics... I understand the first proposal is for whether bald and golden eagles should be allowed to be bred in captivity. Personally, I think it's unfortunate that the bald eagle was included in this comment period. I think it may hurt the chances of passing.

Regarding the second topic though, I am not sure what this is saying. Is it just to have an actual abatement permit rather than just doing abatement through your falconry license? I would think most falconers would be against this, no? Does anyone have any comments on why this might be a good idea? Basically, I guess I am saying I don't really have an informed opinion on this second matter (other than my instinct that less regulation is better!) and am looking for info... Thanks!

***EDIT*** This link includes the last page that is missing from Larry Dickerson's link as posted above. It includes the actual questions they are seeking comment on and answered some of my questions.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-06/pdf/2011-16880.pdf

Saluqi
07-06-2011, 11:55 AM
At this time there is no abatement permit per se, abatement is allowed on a special use permit. The USFWS is seeking to create an abatement permit which is separate from the special use permit.

Jimmy
07-06-2011, 12:17 PM
I understand the first proposal is for whether bald and golden eagles should be allowed to be bred in captivity. Personally, I think it's unfortunate that the bald eagle was included in this comment period. I think it may hurt the chances of passing.



I think it's a great thing that both are included together. The native americans want to breed both. Our side mostly wants the golden, but I know a few that want the bald as well, especially if they're added back to the available falconry birds in the future. And by having them both included, we'll hopefully have a lot more positive comments from people in regards to the native americans breeding them, as well as us. It's a winning scenario in my opinion.

wyodjm
07-06-2011, 12:21 PM
I have a few concerns regarding these two topics... I understand the first proposal is for whether bald and golden eagles should be allowed to be bred in captivity. Personally, I think it's unfortunate that the bald eagle was included in this comment period. I think it may hurt the chances of passing.

You read my mind Dave. Bald Eagles are not allowed as falconry birds.

Jimmy
07-06-2011, 12:27 PM
You read my mind Dave. Bald Eagles are not allowed as falconry birds.

What does falconry birds have to do with this, Dan?

Jimmy
07-06-2011, 12:53 PM
I hope everyone keeps in mind that falconry is only one of many legitimate user groups that can benefit from the propagation of eagles. We aren't the only ones this might effect. I personally hope that anyone who decides to comment, does so in a positive way for all the other user groups also.

wyodjm
07-06-2011, 02:57 PM
What does falconry birds have to do with this, Dan?

Well, that depends on your perspective I guess.

If the feds keep micromanaging and tightening up the take of eagles in depredation areas for falconry purposes, I would imagine American eagle falconers would be looking to acquire captive bred birds for falconry purposes. Currently, captive bred eagles are the only source of eagles for falconry purposes in Europe. Not that is related in any way, but I thought Iíd just bring that up.

Thatís what falconry birds have to do with this. Will captive produced Golden Eagles be a potential source of birds to American eagle falconers if acquiring them from the wild becomes virtually impossible? Furthermore, I think the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is well aware of this. It will be interesting to see how all this pans out.



I hope everyone keeps in mind that falconry is only one of many legitimate user groups that can benefit from the propagation of eagles. We aren't the only ones this might effect. I personally hope that anyone who decides to comment, does so in a positive way for all the other user groups also.

That is true. However, it depends on the extent of the regulations and who it affects. I may be stepping out on a limb here, so please forgive me if Iím mistaken but zoos and Native American breeding aviaries may be exempt from eagle breeding regulations. Zoos have been exempt and have been breeding eagles for decades. At least one Native American aviary is breeding Golden Eagles right now.

So, the $64 question is who will these eagle breeding regulations affect if many of the other interests may already be exempt?

Some of the language in the Federal Register referencing RIN-1018-AX78 is misleading and just plain incorrect. Itís subtle, but wrong just the same.

michaelberan
07-06-2011, 08:11 PM
http://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2011/07/06/2011-16877/migratory-bird-permits-changes-in-the-regulations-governing-raptor-propagation

rkumetz
07-07-2011, 10:07 AM
Am I missing something or are they simply trying to replace the "Special Use Permit - Abatement Using Raptors" with a new one called an "Abatement Permit" with the same exact requirements and regulations? confusedd

Jimmy
07-07-2011, 01:28 PM
Am I missing something or are they simply trying to replace the "Special Use Permit - Abatement Using Raptors" with a new one called an "Abatement Permit" with the same exact requirements and regulations? confusedd


Nope, not missing anything from what I see. They're just creating another stand alone permit.

Jimmy
07-07-2011, 01:40 PM
So, the $64 question is who will these eagle breeding regulations affect if many of the other interests may already be exempt?


Falconers, rehabbers, abatement permittees, education permittees, Native Americans, zoos. Anyone else who is legally allowed to posses eagles. Even though some may or may not already be exempt, they still stand to benefit from it being legal across the board.

On another note.... The comment period has only been out one day, and there's already several people on other venues voicing restrictive views and ideas that they think should be applied. Why the hell is it so hard for people to want less regs??

sevristh
07-07-2011, 02:07 PM
On another note.... The comment period has only been out one day, and there's already several people on other venues voicing restrictive views and ideas that they think should be applied. Why the hell is it so hard for people to want less regs??

Jimmy,

Could you post a link to these? Or PM me with them if you don't want to post them publicly.

Jimmy
07-07-2011, 02:11 PM
The person isn't here to defend himself, so I won't put it out there. Check your email though for more details.......

AK Rev
07-07-2011, 02:12 PM
Dave, it's on a private group forum. We can't cross-post. It's just typical falconers and their opinions on how others should do falconry as they think is best. If you thought falconers were bad about that...you should see eagle falconers! :)

Jimmy
07-07-2011, 02:17 PM
If you thought falconers were bad about that...you should see eagle falconers! :)


Understatement of the year...........

sevristh
07-07-2011, 02:27 PM
Dave, it's on a private group forum. We can't cross-post. It's just typical falconers and their opinions on how others should do falconry as they think is best. If you thought falconers were bad about that...you should see eagle falconers! :)

Yeah, I just got done reading it... I would say that I can't believe the opinion expressed...but then I know better. All I could think when I was done (that didn't contain expletives) was "Wow..." Hopefully that comment is part of a very small minority.

AK Rev
07-07-2011, 02:38 PM
Glad to hear that you disapprove on that subject Dave. I hope you participate in the open period for comments. The whole point we should be making is that golden eagles are just raptors and should be treated as such in the regs...not singled out. The science doesn't support it.

Jimmy
07-07-2011, 02:46 PM
The whole point we should be making is that golden eagles are just raptors and should be treated as such in the regs....


Certainly seems that simple, huh?

wyodjm
07-07-2011, 02:55 PM
Dave, it's on a private group forum. We can't cross-post. It's just typical falconers and their opinions on how others should do falconry as they think is best. If you thought falconers were bad about that...you should see eagle falconers! :)

Hi Bryan:

Am I missing something? Could you PM me and bring me up to speed if possible?

I'm for simple regs that protect the eagle resource, are enforceable, and are fair. I have always thought that was a safe and firmly grounded premise. I'm wondering these days, however, if I need my head examined and if I'm looking at things properly.

I don't know what the big deal is with eagles. I have spent so much time and energy trying to keep our legal depredation areas open here. I would like to see properly licensed and qualified falconers get Golden Eagles from the wild for falconry purposes.

PM me if you can.

Best,

Dan

wyodjm
07-07-2011, 06:41 PM
On another note.... The comment period has only been out one day, and there's already several people on other venues voicing restrictive views and ideas that they think should be applied. Why the hell is it so hard for people to want less regs??

There may be a simple reason for that. Some people think that if we have more bureaucracy, more micromanagement, and more restrictive regulations, then we as falconers will appease the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and keep the wolf away from the door.

Iíd like to point out that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service must be feeling pretty good these days. They are basically an autonomous federal agency, made up of non-elected bureaucrats with a huge amount of regulatory power, and they basically answer to no one.

Please forgive me for lamenting and screaming from the rooftops, but the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in their infinite wisdom, does not want private individuals possessing eagles for falconry purposes. They will continue to promote that agenda until they succeed or until the American public stops them.

Even though the breeding regulations concerning eagles are up for public comment, Iíll bet you dollars to donuts that they have already made their mind up when it comes to breeding eagles. Golden Eagles are a common species in North America. They have never been endangered or threatened at the federal level. Yet the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is using the Eagle Act to abuse their management authority, power and control.

The writingís on the wall. Itís almost too late folks.

Iíd like to close by sharing something that may validate my suspicions. I have come to the conclusion that us getting eagle depredation areas opened up for falconry take over 15 years ago may have been an accident. It was a fluke. I donít think the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ever intended people to get eagles out of the wild for falconry purposes. They have been trying like mad to repair that chink in their administrative armor ever since. Even though the Eagle Act says we can, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is trying to close a door that wasnít supposed to be opened. Theyíre smarter now. And here we have the possibility of private individuals being allowed to breed eagles up for public comment.

FredFogg
07-07-2011, 06:55 PM
There may be a simple reason for that. Some people think that if we have more bureaucracy, more micromanagement, and more restrictive regulations, then we as falconers will appease the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and keep the wolf away from the door.

Iíd like to point out that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service must be feeling pretty good these days. They are basically an autonomous federal agency, made up of non-elected bureaucrats with a huge amount of regulatory power, and they basically answer to no one.

Please forgive me for lamenting and screaming from the rooftops, but the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in their infinite wisdom, does not want private individuals possessing eagles for falconry purposes. They will continue to promote that agenda until they succeed or until the American public stops them.

Even though the breeding regulations concerning eagles are up for public comment, Iíll bet you dollars to donuts that they have already made their mind up when it comes to breeding eagles. Golden Eagles are a common species in North America. They have never been endangered or threatened at the federal level. Yet the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is using the Eagle Act to abuse their management authority, power and control.

The writingís on the wall. Itís almost too late folks.

Iíd like to close by sharing something that may validate my suspicions. I have come to the conclusion that us getting eagle depredation areas opened up for falconry take over 15 years ago was an accident. It was a fluke. I donít think the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ever intended people to get eagles out of the wild for falconry purposes. They have been trying like mad to repair that chink in their administrative armor ever since. Even though the Eagle Act says we can, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is trying to close the door that wasnít supposed to be opened. Theyíre smarter now. And here we have the possibility of private individuals being allowed to breed eagles up for public comment.

Dan, thanks for your optomistic view! Geeez! frus)

wyodjm
07-07-2011, 07:02 PM
Dan, thanks for your optomistic view! Geeez! frus)

I'm not giving up. I'm still in the fight. It just seems a bit lonely at times. Am I the only one who sees this? My thinking is either all wrong or right on. You decide.

Thanks for your comments Fred.

Jimmy
07-07-2011, 07:51 PM
Even though the breeding regulations concerning eagles are up for public comment, Iíll bet you dollars to donuts that they have already made their mind up when it comes to breeding eagles.

I agree with this. While I'll certainly be sending in my comments, I also feel that they've already made all the decisions they're going to. They're just using the comment period to stay legal.

AK Rev
07-07-2011, 07:54 PM
I agree with this. While I'll certainly be sending in my comments, I also feel that they've already made all the decisions they're going to. They're just using the comment period to stay legal.

Almost certainly but we have to do something. I am thankful that we have a comment period that IS public record. We also know that some of them read this forum.

FredFogg
07-07-2011, 08:28 PM
I'm not giving up. I'm still in the fight. It just seems a bit lonely at times. Am I the only one who sees this? My thinking is either all wrong or right on. You decide.

Thanks for your comments Fred.

Dan, don't get me wrong! There are many of us here that appreciate your fighting for all falconers rights as this isn't just about eagles. And I don't believe your thinking is all wrong, nor do I think it is all right. From your post, I believe you have a great base but I also think you have made a decision about your views and sometimes you only look at that view and aren't looking outside the box sometimes. Keep doing what you are doing, it is more likely to get results than doing nothing.

And to be honest, what I believe is that it is going to take someone with a lot of money to contact someone with a lot of power and that is how this whole thing will be straightened out. It is called politics and that is how things get done in our government agencies nowdays. Sorry to be blunt, but that is just how I see it.

wyodjm
07-08-2011, 01:13 AM
Dan, don't get me wrong! There are many of us here that appreciate your fighting for all falconers rights as this isn't just about eagles. And I don't believe your thinking is all wrong, nor do I think it is all right. From your post, I believe you have a great base but I also think you have made a decision about your views and sometimes you only look at that view and aren't looking outside the box sometimes. Keep doing what you are doing, it is more likely to get results than doing nothing.

And to be honest, what I believe is that it is going to take someone with a lot of money to contact someone with a lot of power and that is how this whole thing will be straightened out. It is called politics and that is how things get done in our government agencies nowdays. Sorry to be blunt, but that is just how I see it.

Fred, I haven't got a problem with your view. I agree with you about the politics. And using the political arena, we need to make our voice heard. We're a very small group of sportsmen, but that doesn't mean we're invisible.

And I also agree with you that this issue may involve more than just eagles. I tried to make that point from day one.

Best,

goshawkr
07-08-2011, 03:54 PM
There may be a simple reason for that. Some people think that if we have more bureaucracy, more micromanagement, and more restrictive regulations, then we as falconers will appease the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and keep the wolf away from the door.

I think you are right on the money about this, at least in many cases. I do however, think that something else is at work. In same cases in concert with the cause you mentioned, and in same cases as a completely seperate source of motivation.

There is an odd aspect of human nature that I dont really fully understand, but that seems to be very pervasive. I have seen in accross a wide spectrum of minority groups that I am involved with, and falconers hit the pattern to a "T". Actually, falconers are some of the worst I have ever seen at this - especially US falconers that were licensed after the federal regulations went in place in the 70's.

The crux of it comes down to an "Us" vs "Them" mentality. I think this is rooted in the days when we lived in small villiages competeing with those who lived in other small villiages for resources, which is of course our natural state of existence. We are absolutely wired at some very basic level to view those who we agree with as allies, and those who we disagree with as foes, and often this boils out very intensely.

To bring this basic aspect of human nature into focus on the current topic, there is a strong tendancy among "post 70's" U.S. falconers to view the way they want to practice falconry (or propagation, or whatever) as "right", and to get very worked up about anyone who does it in a way they disagree with. And the regulations are a very convenient hammer that can be used to impose their view of "right" and "wrong" onto the way other falconers practice.

What utterly baffles me is that these same people fail to understand that as they are wrapping that rope of regulation on their fellow falconers they are tying the same noose about their own heads, and cutting off their own air. We should all be pressing HARD for as much freedom as possible, on all fronts. The only tenable reason for restrciting that freedom are absolute matters of public safety and matters of biological sustainablity.

And there is a thrid aspect to this, that is not completely seperate from either the motivation Dan mentioned, or the "US" vs "Them" dynamic. Restrictive regulations create an elitism. Those choice few who are willing to jump through the inane hoops to become a falconer (or propagotr, or eagle propagtor) can think of themselves as very special, because few are willing to do it. Naturally, they prefer thinking that few are ABLE to do it, but the reality of the matter is most sane people who have an interest in these activities look at the legal hurdles and legal risks for running afoul of the regs and would rather invest their energy elsewhere. Some of those falconers who were behind authoring the first round of federal regulations have stated that part of the reason why they made them so restrictive was to maintain this elitism.


Iíd like to close by sharing something that may validate my suspicions. I have come to the conclusion that us getting eagle depredation areas opened up for falconry take over 15 years ago may have been an accident. It was a fluke. I donít think the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ever intended people to get eagles out of the wild for falconry purposes. They have been trying like mad to repair that chink in their administrative armor ever since. Even though the Eagle Act says we can, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is trying to close a door that wasnít supposed to be opened. Theyíre smarter now. And here we have the possibility of private individuals being allowed to breed eagles up for public comment.

I was watching very closely while you, and Tom, and Lee and a handful of others cracked open that door. I think its very safe to say the Service didnt intend for it to happen, but at the same time it wasnt an accident. It was cracked open by a few poltically saavy eagle falconers, and despite a few other eagle falconers trying to make themselve look good to the Service by tattling on what you were up to.

I think your right on the money - they may well have been stewing and plotting at how to get that door closed again. There is certainly more going on than meets the eye. I am not a conspiracy theory sorta guy...and I am certainly not paranoid. But there is most definately something going on behind the scene that we are not meant to see. I feel a bit like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz wondering whats behind the curtain.

I do want to take a step back here though. The Service does NOT have to reopen the comments about breeding eagles. When the new Propagation regulations were proposed in '06(?) and placed on the register for comment, breeding of golden eagles was a part of things then. The Service then determined sometime between then and when the final rules were published this year that allowing the breeding of eagles under raptor propagation permits was more than they wanted to deal with. They had absolutely NO need to rexamine the issue. They could have simply considered the matter settled. So why open it for comment?

George Allen is a good guy who really cares about our community. I have no doubt about that at all. I got the impression from a few conversations with him that he really dosnt see eagles for falconry being a big deal. He is, however, placed in the middle of the maelstorm, and forced to work with elements of the FWS who take a more dim view of falconry and falconers. Some of these, no doubt, are either veterans of the Operation Falcon days or the protege's of those veterans with the same attitudes and the same misconceptions of falconers. The last time I talked to him, he very sadly indicated that he had to conceed on some points on the regulations to get things through, and was hopeful that we could make strides the next time the are examined. Politics is, and always has been, a game of compromise.

Maybe the FWS is considering allowing the captive breeding of eagles to help relieve the preassure to keep access to depreating eagles open. Maybe they are just considering it because its a good idea. Who knows...

Eagles are absolutely a bit more dangerous to handle than your run of the mill raptor. However, there is no biological reason to treat them any differently. A bit of extra caution is warrented to make sure that those who handle them are not putting the public at risk, and then its just a hawk. Thats all it should be. Thats all it should be in the regs - falconry, breeding, and education. For that matter, eagles could make a great way to haze canadian geese in abatement activities I would think.

Anyway, thats all I have time to post for now. Time to climb down the fire escape to make sure I am not followed.....:D

AK Rev
07-08-2011, 04:23 PM
Eagles abating geese...probably just a dream but not a bad one! What a visual that one is.

sevristh
07-08-2011, 04:25 PM
We should all be pressing HARD for as much freedom as possible, on all fronts. The only tenable reason for restrciting that freedom are absolute matters of public safety and matters of biological sustainablity.

Excellent post Geoff! Those two sentences really sum it up. clapp

JRedig
07-08-2011, 04:43 PM
clappAbsolutely fantastic post Geoff.

I think the crux of this is: Aside from suing the FWS or getting into the political game at the federal level, what can we do? This comes from above George Allen without question. We have him as our contact, but this obviously isn't up to him. So who is making these calls and how do we get their attention?

Who's got the money and time to take them to trial?

or

How do we get the falconry community together to send letters and appropriately get what is rightfully ours through political channels?

Jimmy
07-08-2011, 04:49 PM
How do we get the falconry community together to send letters and appropriately get what is rightfully ours through political channels?

You won't, because it doesn't effect them......... yet. The vast majority could give a rat's ass about eagles. Until something on their plate is being messed with, you're not likely to garner the support. Sad....... but true.

goshawkr
07-08-2011, 04:50 PM
Eagles abating geese...probably just a dream but not a bad one! What a visual that one is.

well - in my area canada geese are a real public health threat in some places. About 15 years ago, some folks started hazing them with dogs, it was pretty aparant to me watching that happen that the geese just didnt give a rats hiney about the dogs. The idea was sound, but they needed to find an animal that the geese actually viewed as a threat. They see far too many dogs, and truth be told could probably take on most dogs in a fair fight anyway.

Your right, probably just a dream - the downside though is that when I have the pipe dream I have images of an abatement eagle overshooting the geese in a park and taking out some yuppie's purse dog instead. :eek:

I used to day dream of flying an eagle - but I put that on hold until I leave this metro area. I think flying an eagle around here is a lawsuit in the making.

wyodjm
07-08-2011, 04:55 PM
I love good dialog. Well done Geoff.

Best,

Dan

goshawkr
07-08-2011, 04:59 PM
clappAbsolutely fantastic post Geoff.

I think the crux of this is: Aside from suing the FWS or getting into the political game at the federal level, what can we do? This comes from above George Allen without question. We have him as our contact, but this obviously isn't up to him. So who is making these calls and how do we get their attention?

Who's got the money and time to take them to trial?

or

How do we get the falconry community together to send letters and appropriately get what is rightfully ours through political channels?

What can we do? COMMENT!


And do your best to get everyone else around you to comment. Part of what really helps is to suggest comments. I am letting this stew for a few weeks while I gather my thoughts, but my comments will be posted here as inspiration when I come up with them.

I send in my comments - and ghost write for my wife and 4 kids (they send them themselves, but I write for them). The comments are open to everyone in the US. I dont even think citizenship or legal residence is required - its certainly not explicitly checked for.

goshawkr
07-08-2011, 05:14 PM
You won't, because it doesn't effect them......... yet. The vast majority could give a rat's ass about eagles. Until something on their plate is being messed with, you're not likely to garner the support. Sad....... but true.

Your right on the money there Jimmy...but we cant become complacent about it. If we take a "why bother..." attitude we give away all hope.

The falconry community, taken as a whole, is very saavy in political matters and very well connected with each other. Yet I am regularly stunned at how few bother to send in their comments.

Even something as simple as "I support it" is enouigh!

Those of us that are passionate about eagles need to make sure we are heard on this.....

wyodjm
07-08-2011, 06:30 PM
Your right on the money there Jimmy...but we cant become complacent about it. If we take a "why bother..." attitude we give away all hope.

The falconry community, taken as a whole, is very saavy in political matters and very well connected with each other. Yet I am regularly stunned at how few bother to send in their comments.

Even something as simple as "I support it" is enouigh!

Those of us that are passionate about eagles need to make sure we are heard on this.....


I encourage everyone to submit written comments regarding the captive breeding of eagles.

With that in mind, Iíd like to point out a very subtle yet disturbing statement the U.S, Fish and Wildlife Service wrote and published in the recent announcement in the Federal Register regarding eagle propagation.

In the third column on the first page (page 39367) under the background section, halfway through the second paragraph, it states:

ďThe BGEPA allows bald eagles and golden eagles to be taken and possessed under more restricted circumstances. For example, only golden eagles that are depredating on livestock or wildlife may be taken from the wild by falconers, and bald eagles, no matter what their origin, cannot be held for falconry.Ē

This is NOT correct. The 1972 amendment to the Eagle Act (Oct. 23, 1972, Pub.L. 92-535, ß 2, 86 Stat. 1065) specifies:

ďthat only golden eagles which would be taken because of depredations on livestock or wildlife may be taken for purposes of falconry.Ē

The Eagle Act does not require specific individual Golden Eagles that are depredating on livestock or wildlife to be individually identified, targeted, and trapped for falconry purposes. The Eagle Act says that eagles may be trapped for falconry purposes because of depredation.

This means that livestock operation areas that are identified as having eagle depredation problems may be opened up for falconers to take eagles in those areas. This is how everyone in the State of Wyoming, USDA/Wildlife Services, and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service interpreted and operated the program for 15 years. Until very recently, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has been marginalizing the language in the Eagle Act and making up their own, overly restrictive interpretation and then forming policy on when and where falconers could trap eagles.

With the even more restrictive language that they are throwing out all over the place (such as the above example), many of us feel that it is just a matter of time when the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will require falconers to identify those specific, individual eagles that are causing specific damage. That will virtually be next to impossible to accomplish or verify. The lambing areas that are included in the depredation areas of Wyoming cover huge tracts of land with large numbers of eagles moving constantly in and out of those areas. This is also why the six-eagle quota is so ridiculous. There are multiple depredation areas spanning several Wyoming counties across the state, with many different lambing operations going on simultaneously.

It is important that all of us identify this written (and perhaps intentional) error on the part of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service when we make our public comments. Falconers may trap Golden Eagles in designated depredation areas because of depredation, not trap individual eagles that are specifically causing depredation. It is my opinion that if that statement is not corrected, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will continue to print it. Given enough time, people will come to accept it as gospel. It is not, for the reasons Iíve just stated. Iíve just recently brought this to the attention of the USDA and the State of Wyoming and they agree.

Saluqi
07-08-2011, 06:43 PM
"For example, only golden eagles that are depredating on livestock or wildlife may be taken from the wild by falconers, and bald eagles, no matter what their origin, cannot be held for falconry.Ē


Or it could mean nothing at all, it was being used as an example in a non-policy document. Reading too much into these things can be detrimental as well.

goshawkr
07-08-2011, 07:02 PM
Am I missing something or are they simply trying to replace the "Special Use Permit - Abatement Using Raptors" with a new one called an "Abatement Permit" with the same exact requirements and regulations? confusedd

Its not quite that simple, but close.

The special use permit issued for abatement with raptors is being replaced with a specific permit for abatement. That part is exactly correct.

However, at the moment there are not any abatement regulations at all - just memos and policy. So part of the creation of an abatement permit is the creation of a whole new set of regulations to govern that activity.

This will make the abatement activities more universal across teh country, and less subject to the whims of the administrating officials.

FredFogg
07-08-2011, 07:07 PM
"For example, only golden eagles that are depredating on livestock or wildlife may be taken from the wild by falconers, and bald eagles, no matter what their origin, cannot be held for falconry.Ē


Or it could mean nothing at all, it was being used as an example in a non-policy document. Reading too much into these things can be detrimental as well.

I was thinking the exact same thing Paul! Dan, again, here is an example where I think you are trying to help all falconers but are looking at this with blinders on. Taking everything that is written and trying to interpet is an unbelievable hard job, it hurt my head just trying to see the difference of the 2 statements in your post. I don't think we can look at everything the USFWS puts out there and mirco analyze it looking for a mistake. Man, all this stuff is tough! frus)

wyodjm
07-08-2011, 07:38 PM
"For example, only golden eagles that are depredating on livestock or wildlife may be taken from the wild by falconers, and bald eagles, no matter what their origin, cannot be held for falconry.Ē

Or it could mean nothing at all, it was being used as an example in a non-policy document. Reading too much into these things can be detrimental as well.


I was thinking the exact same thing Paul! Dan, again, here is an example where I think you are trying to help all falconers but are looking at this with blinders on. Taking everything that is written and trying to interpet is an unbelievable hard job, it hurt my head just trying to see the difference of the 2 statements in your post. I don't think we can look at everything the USFWS puts out there and mirco analyze it looking for a mistake. Man, all this stuff is tough! frus)

Hi Paul and Fred:

Actually, to be honest, it wasnít me that first caught this or even brought it up. It was an official within USDA/Wildlife Services who shared the idea with me. He thought it was very alarming.

But you see Fred you didnít know that. You just jumped to conclusions. Iím sorry I canít do this anymore. If you want information, please go to your NAFA Eagle Committee.

FredFogg
07-08-2011, 07:44 PM
Hi Paul and Fred:

Actually, to be honest, it wasnít me that first caught this or even brought it up. It was an official within USDA/Wildlife Services who shared the idea with me. He thought it was very alarming.

But you see Fred you didnít know that. You just jumped to conclusions. Iím sorry I canít do this anymore. If you want information, please go to your NAFA Eagle Committee.

No Dan, I didn't jump to conclusions. You posted it, you didn't mention anything about someone else catching it first, so what do you think folks are going to think.

You put everything under a microscope and what you don't like to see, you get pissed. Again, take off your blinders and you will do yourself and the falconry community some good! I too am through, good luck with "your" eagle problem!

wyodjm
07-08-2011, 07:48 PM
No Dan, I didn't jump to conclusions. You posted it, you didn't mention anything about someone else catching it first, so what do you think folks are going to think.

You put everything under a microscope and what you don't like to see, you get pissed. Again, take off your blinders and you will do yourself and the falconry community some good! I too am through, good luck with "your" eagle problem!


Thanks for your response Fred. Iím not angry. I just donít want to deal with you. I donít have to.

If the FWS is monitoring NAFEX, they might be enjoying this. Which is another reason why it would probably be wise to stop posting.

All my best,

goshawks00
07-08-2011, 08:09 PM
Ah the molt!!!

Dan, had a cool incident with Thor today . I watched him fooling around in the ancient walnut tree off our rear deck. He was jumping and flipping and acting a fool, when all of a sudden something came falling out of the tree into the yard. Right behind it was Thor doing this descending spiral of some type, surely the first time he ever tried it.
Anyway he stomped around on the ground for a couple of minutes then went back up into a maple tree . Curiosity got to me and i went to see what he had been playing with... Surprise it was an Actias luna!! We find them every so often but this is about as early as I can ever remember.
The grandkids have several 'bug buster' lights that turn on when they come out, and they will get up several times in the night and go check them out for what moths are drawn to them, Every year they 'trap' a couple and keep them for a day or two then release them. Anyway just thought I'd share a little bit of todays adventures... Life is good even if there are bumps in the road.

wyodjm
07-08-2011, 08:57 PM
Ah the molt!!!

Dan, had a cool incident with Thor today . I watched him fooling around in the ancient walnut tree off our rear deck. He was jumping and flipping and acting a fool, when all of a sudden something came falling out of the tree into the yard. Right behind it was Thor doing this descending spiral of some type, surely the first time he ever tried it.
Anyway he stomped around on the ground for a couple of minutes then went back up into a maple tree . Curiosity got to me and i went to see what he had been playing with... Surprise it was an Actias luna!! We find them every so often but this is about as early as I can ever remember.
The grandkids have several 'bug buster' lights that turn on when they come out, and they will get up several times in the night and go check them out for what moths are drawn to them, Every year they 'trap' a couple and keep them for a day or two then release them. Anyway just thought I'd share a little bit of todays adventures... Life is good even if there are bumps in the road.

Ah Barry, why didn't I just stick to goshawks? Goshawks are cool. Goshawks are great game hawks. I like goshawks. There's nothing wrong with flying a goshawk. There's no politics with goshawks. You blend in when you fly a goshawk. There's no drama with goshawks. :)

Best,

goshawks00
07-08-2011, 09:08 PM
There's no drama with goshawks. :)

Best,

Sure there is plenty of drama but it is done in the solitude of two predators trying to survive... A "does a forest in the woods make a noise when it falls" kind of thing. Of course it does but only to those that are able to hear it...

hawking
07-08-2011, 11:31 PM
Ah Barry, why didn't I just stick to goshawks? Goshawks are cool. Goshawks are great game hawks. I like goshawks. There's nothing wrong with flying a goshawk. There's no politics with goshawks. You blend in when you fly a goshawk. There's no drama with goshawks. :)

Best,

To blaze the path so others may follow. Many great people are over looked in there time. It is only when the time has passed and we have the luxury of looking back at the good old days and the pioneers of those times, do we realize the profound things that were happening right before our very eyes.

I for one applaud your efforts. It is inspiring.

My sponsor was imprisoned when he first came to this country with peregrines. Of course the authorities knew they could not be bred so they must be smuggled. I am proud of those who fought the good fight so I can stand here today. I expect that your efforts and those like minded will be admired for your efforts in the fullness of time.

With great respect,

Mike

PS It was hard for Job to see the full story too, but we still read of and learn from him.

oscarpack@yahoo.com
07-09-2011, 08:05 AM
Good point Dan,
As you stated, repeated often enough, this will be the perception of taking golden eagles, and perception is reality!
It is the same with this averaging of the take, if not contested it will become the norm.
Oscar
ďThe BGEPA allows bald eagles and golden eagles to be taken and possessed under more restricted circumstances. For example, only golden eagles that are depredating on livestock or wildlife may be taken from the wild by falconers, and bald eagles, no matter what their origin, cannot be held for falconry.Ē

This is NOT correct. The 1972 amendment to the Eagle Act (Oct. 23, 1972, Pub.L. 92-535, ß 2, 86 Stat. 1065) specifies:

ďthat only golden eagles which would be taken because of depredations on livestock or wildlife may be taken for purposes of falconry.Ē

outhawkn
07-09-2011, 02:43 PM
What can we do? COMMENT!


And do your best to get everyone else around you to comment. Part of what really helps is to suggest comments. I am letting this stew for a few weeks while I gather my thoughts, but my comments will be posted here as inspiration when I come up with them.

I send in my comments - and ghost write for my wife and 4 kids (they send them themselves, but I write for them). The comments are open to everyone in the US. I dont even think citizenship or legal residence is required - its certainly not explicitly checked for.

And just for the record. Dont resend then same comment over and over "form letter". They dont count the same as each person commenting in their own words.........

goshawkr
07-10-2011, 01:04 PM
And just for the record. Dont resend then same comment over and over "form letter". They dont count the same as each person commenting in their own words.........

Right - each comment must be unique, or it dosnt count.