PDA

View Full Version : Flaw in the Regulations?



FredFogg
09-17-2011, 10:19 PM
The question of the number of wild take has come up recently for some falconers I know and after reading the regulations and how they are being enforced here in NC, I think I see a flaw. Let me explain and then if someone can set me straight, I would appreciate it.

I used to always think we were allowed 2 wild take birds and then 2 replacements (wild or captive). I was told that we are only allowed 2 wild take per year. And the per year is where I see a flaw in the regulations. According to our state folks, when you capture a wild taken bird is when the year starts for that bird and you can't take another for that wild taken bird until that date 1 year later.

The flaw I see in this is if someone were to trap a bird in October and then another in December and hunt them through the season and then release in March, they would only be allowed to trap one bird the next fall in October and not the second until December. Logically, if both birds are released or even one, shouldn't the wild take allowance start over at the beginning of trapping season and not when you took the last bird?

And why oh why can't we take 4 wild birds in a year, as long as we only have 2 from that particular year in our possession? In my case, if I were to trap a red-tail this fall and then a coopers hawk and later in the year, someone wanted to transfer me a goshawk, I couldn't turn one of my wild take birds loose and accept the goshawk. We have no impact on wild take, what makes the difference if we take 2 or 4.

I think it should be 2 wild takes allowed and 2 wild take replacements, which is what I thought it really was until I was informed I was wrong.

What are folks thoughts on this?

Also, as a note, the new regulations says a Master falconer can have 5 wild taken birds in their possession but only 2 can be taken in one year.

Jimmy
09-17-2011, 10:39 PM
A lot of it depends on who is doing the interpretations........ Some places count captive birds as replacements too, not just wild ones. Some don't. Some count the 12 month period differently. It's a clusterf**k in most cases........ Especially recently.....

frootdog
09-18-2011, 12:49 AM
It's 2 wild per year. Period. Different states define a year differently. Some say Jan-Dec, Some July-June, others 1 year from the date of capture (no more than 2 in any 365 day period). Yes a master can have 5 but can't go to S. TX and trap 3 HHs in one season to fly in a cast.

Why do you not think this is fair? It's mainly to protect the birds. IE apprentice one kills 2 birds in the first year and can't keep trapping but must wait it out a year thus killing a year of apprenticeship. They don't see that any differently than the bird you trap and fly then release. That part may be a bit unfair but in the long run does it really matter? If you let falconers take as many wild bird as they wish that zero impact could change (not saying it would but we would be shooting ourselves in the foot).

FredFogg
09-18-2011, 01:01 AM
It's 2 wild per year. Period. Different states define a year differently. Some say Jan-Dec, Some July-June, others 1 year from the date of capture (no more than 2 in any 365 day period). Yes a master can have 5 but can't go to S. TX and trap 3 HHs in one season to fly in a cast.

Why do you not think this is fair? It's mainly to protect the birds. IE apprentice one kills 2 birds in the first year and can't keep trapping but must wait it out a year thus killing a year of apprenticeship. They don't see that any differently than the bird you trap and fly then release. That part may be a bit unfair but in the long run does it really matter? If you let falconers take as many wild bird as they wish that zero impact could change (not saying it would but we would be shooting ourselves in the foot).

Nobody said anything about falconers being able to take as many birds as they want. The regulations say an apprentice can take 1 bird and replace it with 1. Common sense would say a general can take 2 and replace them with 2. And the same would apply for master falconers.

And how is it protecting the birds? If I take 2 and release those 2 and take 2 more and release those 2, how is that hurting the birds or the population! And again, all the wild taken birds, be it 2 per falconer per year or 4 per falconer per year still doesn't have any impact on wild populations. And yes, it does matter! Why should I be forced to have to purchase birds because the 2 wild take I got didn't work out. Again, the feds can't say we have no impact on wild populations but then limit us to such a small amount of wild birds. I would guess that less than 50 percent of the falconers in the U.S. even use wild take.

jfseaman
09-18-2011, 10:17 AM
"It depends on what your definition of is is"

In California we've had at least three different 'special permits' administrative staff in the last 5 years. This is the person that does our permits, state 3-186A and keeps our files.

Each one has given a different answer to the same question.

I think it's one for a clarification statement from USFWS regs and legal. That can then be used as protection from LE and administrative mercurial tenancies.

I will pursue that and get us a formal statement.

outhawkn
09-18-2011, 10:20 AM
I will pursue that and get us a formal statement.

Thanks.........clapp

falcon56
09-18-2011, 10:29 AM
If a wild bird is transferred to you from another licensed falconer, it only counts against that persons wild take quota, not yours.

jfseaman
09-18-2011, 10:53 AM
If a wild bird is transferred to you from another licensed falconer, it only counts against that persons wild take quota, not yours.
Yup. That one is definite.

robruger1
09-18-2011, 12:16 PM
I know that here in oregon, the lady in charge of the falconry program views it as being 2 allowed to be trapped and then 2 for replacements. That way you can start each season off with fresh birds and then be able to replace them if need be.

frootdog
09-18-2011, 01:13 PM
I know that here in oregon, the lady in charge of the falconry program views it as being 2 allowed to be trapped and then 2 for replacements. That way you can start each season off with fresh birds and then be able to replace them if need be.

The fed regs say you can only take 2 out of the wild per year so OR can not make that less restrictive.

frootdog
09-18-2011, 01:21 PM
Nobody said anything about falconers being able to take as many birds as they want. The regulations say an apprentice can take 1 bird and replace it with 1. Common sense would say a general can take 2 and replace them with 2. And the same would apply for master falconers.

And how is it protecting the birds? If I take 2 and release those 2 and take 2 more and release those 2, how is that hurting the birds or the population! And again, all the wild taken birds, be it 2 per falconer per year or 4 per falconer per year still doesn't have any impact on wild populations. And yes, it does matter! Why should I be forced to have to purchase birds because the 2 wild take I got didn't work out. Again, the feds can't say we have no impact on wild populations but then limit us to such a small amount of wild birds. I would guess that less than 50 percent of the falconers in the U.S. even use wild take.


The rule was always 2 from the wild per year. That has not changed, That is also a limitation that led to the zero impact statement. Now if we let people all along take 4 or 6 or however many out of the wild every year then that MAY have caused a different result. Again this is something that has NOT changed even with the new regs. It used to state as you pointed out that you could replace 2 birds/year if you were a general and 3 if a master. Even then you were limited to 2 wild birds. THAT even limited the # of captive bred birds you could go through a year. Now they say you can replace as many as you want using captive bred keeping within your possession limit but still can't take more than 2 wild. If you thought it was not fair you had an opportunity to comment on the regs (but that one was likely never to change). As far as releasing birds and replacing them. They do not differentiate. They deem a bird taken as taken forever regardless of the outcome. That may be unfair but what are you gonna do. Again could have been posed as a reg change on the fed level.

robruger1
09-18-2011, 02:40 PM
Well then apparently they aren't clear on the reg and it needs better defining. I am aware that the state cannot be less restrictive.

SadieHawk
09-18-2011, 02:46 PM
I believe they can not be clearer in the new federal regs.
http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/RegulationsPolicies/regs08/Falconry%20Final%20Rule%208%20October%202008.pdf

Page 24 the 3rd column.


(2) How and when you may take
raptors from the wild to use in falconry.

You may take no more than two raptors
from the wild each year to use in
falconry.

frootdog
09-18-2011, 02:53 PM
I believe they can not be clearer in the new federal regs.
http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/RegulationsPolicies/regs08/Falconry%20Final%20Rule%208%20October%202008.pdf


Page 24 the 3rd column.


(2) How and when you may take
raptors from the wild to use in falconry.

You may take no more than two raptors
from the wild each year to use in
falconry.


amennn

JRedig
09-18-2011, 03:17 PM
Is the time definition open to interpretation? Is it a calendar year or a hunting year(season)? Similar to how states interpret time as an apprentice and such...

frootdog
09-18-2011, 03:19 PM
Is the time definition open to interpretation? Is it a calendar year or a hunting year(season)? Similar to how states interpret time as an apprentice and such...

Yes. Your state has to define what they consider a "year". As I said before some are Jan-Dec, July-June, 365 days, etc.

robruger1
09-18-2011, 04:31 PM
I guess I haven't talked to her about them since the change. How different is the new wording from the old?

FredFogg
09-19-2011, 01:02 AM
The rule was always 2 from the wild per year. That has not changed, That is also a limitation that led to the zero impact statement.

Show me any type of documentation where it states that only 2 wild take per year limitation led to the zero impact statement. Everything I have read only stated that falconers take has no impact on wild populations and never did I read or even hear about that was based on only 2 wild take per year.

And even if it has always been only 2 wild take per year, many states never read it that way or enforced it that way. It has never been an issue for me but now that I am aware of it, it limits what I can and might want to do. Just seems like there needs to be a better definition of the word "year" in the regulations. That is where the confusion for some states comes in.

frootdog
09-19-2011, 02:50 AM
Show me any type of documentation where it states that only 2 wild take per year limitation led to the zero impact statement. Everything I have read only stated that falconers take has no impact on wild populations and never did I read or even hear about that was based on only 2 wild take per year.

Well if you had of quoted the next sentence as well you would have gotten my drift. I was getting at the fact that if things were your way and there was not a 2 wild bird limit then things "MAY" have been different. The fact of the matter is that limitation WAS in place when the study was done; therefore it is one of the contributing factors.

It all comes down to knowing your regs. State people don't always interpret things correctly either and that can get you in trouble. Say your state still has a state and fed permit and your state tells you "Sure trap 4 birds out if the wild" and the feds review the paperwork there are going to be problems. It happened 3 or 4 years back here in TX. Someone trapped their 3rd wild bird of the year and the state showed up and siezed the bird.

FredFogg
09-19-2011, 06:15 AM
It happened 3 or 4 years back here in TX. Someone trapped their 3rd wild bird of the year and the state showed up and siezed the bird.

Well, from what I have read on this forum and others, I can see that happening in TX! LOL toungeout :D

goshawkr
09-19-2011, 05:09 PM
I guess I haven't talked to her about them since the change. How different is the new wording from the old?

It is no different than it was in the old regulations. The change is one of clarification.

The old regs stated that you could take 2 replacement birds from the wild each year, but they did not specify that those replacement birds were intended to refer to gaps in your permit. The thinking behind the wording was that you trap one bird as an apprentice, and everything after that (bought, trapped, or given) that you aquire is a "replacment".

It was very confusing - and it led to a lot of falconers thinking things like what Fred started this post with (I can trap 2, then take 2 more replacements....)

The old federal regs were a mess with the legal jibberish they were written in. I think the new ones are a bigger mess with the common language "cover all bases" method of writting them up, but they are more clear on several points, including this one.

goshawkr
09-19-2011, 05:32 PM
Show me any type of documentation where it states that only 2 wild take per year limitation led to the zero impact statement. Everything I have read only stated that falconers take has no impact on wild populations and never did I read or even hear about that was based on only 2 wild take per year.

Fred,

I completely agree with you. Absolutely completely agree.

Before I go on agreeing with you, I need to reaffirm that what Krys pointed out is right on the money. There were two USFWS studies that examined the impact of falconry take on raptor populations - one in '88 and the other in '04(?). In both studies, the equations were kept simple for mathamatical simplisity. Return to the wild from intentional releases and unintended losses was not factored into the equation - each "take" was considered one way and permanent. Also, the take equation examined was limited to two birds per year.

OK - back on your side here....

Beebee used to rant and rave about this topic, and I absolutely uniquivocally agree with his arguments. Until the 1700's, falconry was as popular in Europe as golf is today. Nearly everyone at least dabled in falconry. During this time period, there was absolutely no regulations on trapping hawks or on selling them. Professional hawk trappers would trap and sell as many hawks as they could get their hands on, both passage and haggard. In all of that, there is no evidence of a single species of raptor being impacted by this unregulated market trapping. In the Arab world, this wide scale market trapping/selling of raptors has a longer history - a few thousand years - and it was only very recently that it seems to have had an impact on a targeted species (saker falcons), and even that is very much debatable.

You can even take a look at the most recent study and pick apart the data. Their base math makes the assumption that each and every falconer will take two birds per year, but they also cite a decades worth of 3-186a data that shows this just is not the case. I dont recall what the actual numbers are, but the actual take is something like 10% of what they modeled in terms of potentail take. That would be completely acceptable if there were unknowns - like if falconry were just being allowed - but falconry has been legal and closely tracked for 40 years. Its very simple to look at the past and project the future from that. It would even be completely reasonable if they were being conservative in doing so, but they were rediculous about how conservative they were.

Still - the real practile part to all this is that if you have any pressing need or desire to take more than two raptors in a year, you just need to find a friend who has room in their plans to take a raptor for you. Have them take one for you, and report it as their take on a 3-186a, and then immediately give it to you. Thats all legal, and even spelled out in the regs (to clarify some misunderstandings that went on in the past when some @#$%@#$%@ enforcement officers insited that transferring a wild taken bird counted as "take"). Of course, if you have no friends, your just screwed. :D

If someone would like to politely arugue with the USFWS that we should be allowed more than 2 per year as our limit let me know - I am supportive and eager to help. Even though I have never taken more than 1 bird in a year.

wesleyc6
09-19-2011, 05:43 PM
A lot of it depends on who is doing the interpretations........ Some places count captive birds as replacements too, not just wild ones. Some don't. Some count the 12 month period differently. It's a clusterf**k in most cases........ Especially recently.....
I was once even told that replacement bird counting was done differently for masters than for apprentices in relation to CB birds:eek:

Dirthawking
09-19-2011, 05:45 PM
This whole topic could be discussed at length but with the topic of the ten day reporting......frus)

goshawkr
09-19-2011, 05:54 PM
I just realized another potential danger point here...

The feds have totally gotten out of admistering the federal regualtions, but the federal rules still apply and you can still be cited by the USFWS if you violate them and they find out about it.

The federal rules state that you can only take 2 birds from the wild per year with, as has been pointed out, no clear delineation for what constitutes a 'year'. The states, as has also been pointed out, are taking their own path in determining what is a year (calander year, Jan-Jan, Jun-Jun, or 365 day period, etc.)

However, here is the hole that we all need to be aware of. Since the USFWS is not longer running the show, its just up to the states. I am certain the states are not talking to each other, and most states allow a non resident take. Actually, its illegal for states to not offer non-resident take, but that is another topic for another time.

Here is the potential danger point. Lets say some random example falconer - we will call him "Fred" takes two raptors at home, lets just say he lives in "NC" for the hell of it, and then while on a trip to say the NAFA meet decides to trap a prarie in Utah during the same year. NC is only watching the take from the wild in their state in that year, and Utah is only watching take in its state - so this all looks like its fine from each state's point of view. But the total wild take is 3 birds, which is a violation of the federal limit of 2. That is not a limit of 2 per state, but 2 total nationwide.

I certainly dont think there is a problem with someone doing this - its not unethical in anyway, but it is illegal and that person is at risk of being cited. So be careful....

YARAK191
09-19-2011, 06:40 PM
I just dont understand how buying a captive bred should be a problem for state or feds. It is only hurting the wallet. Well all I know is I have been educated to government loop holes. I will also have no hawk to hunt with till Dec. 28 th. Guess I will beat brush!!! lesson learned

FredFogg
09-19-2011, 06:49 PM
Here is the potential danger point. Lets say some random example falconer - we will call him "Fred" takes two raptors at home, lets just say he lives in "NC" for the hell of it, and then while on a trip to say the NAFA meet decides to trap a prarie in Utah during the same year. NC is only watching the take from the wild in their state in that year, and Utah is only watching take in its state - so this all looks like its fine from each state's point of view. But the total wild take is 3 birds, which is a violation of the federal limit of 2. That is not a limit of 2 per state, but 2 total nationwide.

I certainly dont think there is a problem with someone doing this - its not unethical in anyway, but it is illegal and that person is at risk of being cited. So be careful....

Well, "Fred", being that he is from NC, would have to get an import permit before bringing said bird from Utah into NC. He would still also have to file a 3-186A on it, so the state would know "Fred" has 3 wild take birds. So I don't see that being a problem for "Fred" because he now knows that he can't turn loose one of those wild taken birds in NC and trap something else in Utah and would only have 2 wild take on his permit but he trapped 3 wild take, which is illegal. And we all know "Fred" trys to always follow the laws and regulations put upon him by this great country. LOL

Oh yeah, I heard from someone else that "Fred" couldn't go to the NAFA Meet in Utah this year because "Fred" is too poor! :eek:

goshawkr
09-19-2011, 06:57 PM
Well, "Fred", being that he is from NC, would have to get an import permit before bringing said bird from Utah into NC. He would still also have to file a 3-186A on it, so the state would know "Fred" has 3 wild take birds. So I don't see that being a problem for "Fred" because he now knows that he can't turn loose one of those wild taken birds in NC and trap something else in Utah and would only have 2 wild take on his permit but he trapped 3 wild take, which is illegal. And we all know "Fred" trys to always follow the laws and regulations put upon him by this great country. LOL

Oh yeah, I heard from someone else that "Fred" couldn't go to the NAFA Meet in Utah this year because "Fred" is too poor! :eek:

Well, its possible that something could slip through the cracks...if someone wasnt paying attention. For example, if this theoretical "NC" didnt notice that the 3-186a/import permit reporting was for a bird that our theoretical "Fred" had trapped himself. "Fred" would, afterall, still file a 3-186a and an import permit if he traveled to Utah and was given a bird while there by another falconer.

By far most of the infractions related to falconry are because the laws are incredibly complex and people got snared in red tape when they were trying to follow the law.

Very sorry to hear that this theoretical "Fred" cant go to Utah. Love to meet him, but its very rare that my family obligations and my finances let me go to NAFA meets. As it turns out, I have a lot of family in Vernal so its practically required for me to go spend Thanksgiving with my dad when the NAFA meet is in town. But most other years I am busy with family on the week of the NAFA meet and cant go.

goshawkr
09-19-2011, 07:05 PM
I just dont understand how buying a captive bred should be a problem for state or feds. It is only hurting the wallet. Well all I know is I have been educated to government loop holes. I will also have no hawk to hunt with till Dec. 28 th. Guess I will beat brush!!! lesson learned

Buying a captive bred is not an issue for the feds. The only "take" they care about is wild take.

States can add their own slant on things...but my state dosnt care about CB and I believe most others dont.

YARAK191
09-19-2011, 07:53 PM
Check out our regarding n tell me where it says that it counts!!

YARAK191
09-19-2011, 07:53 PM
Regs. Damn smart phone.

wesleyc6
09-19-2011, 08:07 PM
I just dont understand how buying a captive bred should be a problem for state or feds. It is only hurting the wallet. Well all I know is I have been educated to government loop holes. I will also have no hawk to hunt with till Dec. 28 th. Guess I will beat brush!!! lesson learned

I was told once that in one fed region I could swap CB birds all I wanted. I was a general falconer. In another region/particularly the state to be honest, I was told if I wanted to buy/sell/trade CB birds at a rate more than the standard for wild take (2 a year) then I should upgrade to Master. So........I did, but I never understood what the difference was in me being a general or master falconer in relation to how many CB birds I wanted to have.

frootdog
09-20-2011, 02:58 AM
Check out our regarding n tell me where it says that it counts!!

If your state has not switched to the new regs then this would be the case. In TX it used to be 2 "replacements"/year for a general class and 3 for master. You still had to abide by the 2 wild/year. So they DID restrict captive bred as well.

They no longer have any restrictions like this on CB birds. You can have unlimited transfers of CB birds as a general as long as you do not exceed your possetion limit.

gratefool1
09-21-2011, 12:40 PM
Hypothetical:
A master class falconer started the 2011 year with no birds and trapped a RT and a Coops in the fall. The RT is electrocuted in Dec. Can the falconer replace that bird with a wild take? When? From what I read, he cannot take another bird from the wild that year. Whether or not January means a new year is subjective and left up to the state, right?
What about captive bred birds? Is this falconer simply not allowed to fill his third spot period? If he is allowed to do this and gets a CB Harris, can he then replace the lost RT with another Harris if he so chose?
So confusing...

Dirthawking
09-21-2011, 12:49 PM
Hypothetical:
A master class falconer started the 2011 year with no birds and trapped a RT and a Coops in the fall. The RT is electrocuted in Dec. Can the falconer replace that bird with a wild take? When? From what I read, he cannot take another bird from the wild that year. Whether or not January means a new year is subjective and left up to the state, right?
What about captive bred birds? Is this falconer simply not allowed to fill his third spot period? If he is allowed to do this and gets a CB Harris, can he then replace the lost RT with another Harris if he so chose?
So confusing...


Only the states are making it more confusing. By Federal regulations, a master falconer can have unlimitted captive bred birds. Period. If the individual states deem it more restrictive than that it is their choice.

goshawkr
09-21-2011, 01:00 PM
Hypothetical:
A master class falconer started the 2011 year with no birds and trapped a RT and a Coops in the fall. The RT is electrocuted in Dec. Can the falconer replace that bird with a wild take? When? From what I read, he cannot take another bird from the wild that year. Whether or not January means a new year is subjective and left up to the state, right?
What about captive bred birds? Is this falconer simply not allowed to fill his third spot period? If he is allowed to do this and gets a CB Harris, can he then replace the lost RT with another Harris if he so chose?
So confusing...

Its really pretty simple - 2 birds can come from the wild per year. In your example, the RT cannot be replaced by trapping from the wild until he has a new opening in his allowed yearly take from the wild - and yes, that would be further clarified or confused by their State.

There are no restrictions on how many CB birds or transferes from other falconers of wild source birds that you can acquire. Again, a state can muddy those waters if they choose to do so.

2 birds can be taken directly from the wild per year per falconer. Thats the restiction, thats the limit.

gratefool1
09-21-2011, 03:54 PM
Thanks all

FredFogg
09-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Its really pretty simple - 2 birds can come from the wild per year. In your example, the RT cannot be replaced by trapping from the wild until he has a new opening in his allowed yearly take from the wild - and yes, that would be further clarified or confused by their State.

There are no restrictions on how many CB birds or transferes from other falconers of wild source birds that you can acquire. Again, a state can muddy those waters if they choose to do so.

2 birds can be taken directly from the wild per year per falconer. Thats the restiction, thats the limit.


The new regulations states:

(3) Regulatory year for governing falconry. For determining possession and take of raptors for falconry, a year is any 12–month period for take defined by the State, tribe, or territory.

And this is where the confusion comes in. Some states use the date the wild take was trapped, some use the date it was released and some count the year as the falconry season. In NC our state falconry license expires every year on June 30th, so common sense says that the wild take should be reset when our license is renewed on July 1st. So even if you trap 2 birds in December and turn them loose in March, you should be allowed to trap 2 more birds the next September or whenever you choose and not wait until December. But again, common sense isn't always followed with these type of situations. frus)

YARAK191
09-21-2011, 06:04 PM
Call Tammy n blast her with that!!!!

frootdog
09-21-2011, 07:53 PM
And this is where the confusion comes in.

If it's so confusing then send your state person an email asking thay way you have it in writing.

jfseaman
09-22-2011, 08:28 AM
"It depends on what your definition of is is"

In California we've had at least three different 'special permits' administrative staff in the last 5 years. This is the person that does our permits, state 3-186A and keeps our files.

Each one has given a different answer to the same question.

I think it's one for a clarification statement from USFWS regs and legal. That can then be used as protection from LE and administrative mercurial tenancies.

I will pursue that and get us a formal statement.

From George Allen

3) Falconry: wild take - '2 per year and 2 replacement birds' what is the deffinition of 'per year'. Calendar, permit or from the date of take? The regs say that "For determining possession and take of raptors for falconry, a year is any 12–month period for take defined by the State, tribe, or territory." You can take two birds in whatever "year" your State establishes.

(http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/mbpermits/Memorandums/Abatement%20Activities%20Using%20Raptors.pdf) (http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/mbpermits/Memorandums/Abatement%20Activities%20Using%20Raptors.pdf)Clear as mud?

So back to each state individually for what a take year is. A formal request for a memorandum of clarification from each state is in order. Perhaps NAFA the clubs of 14 states that have operate under the revised regulations can do this for us.

jfseaman
09-22-2011, 08:34 AM
Sent an email to NAFA requesting further follow up.

frootdog
09-22-2011, 09:13 AM
Sent an email to NAFA requesting further follow up.


Why is this NAFA's problem? Why can't you send an email to your state falconry person and ask them?

Saluqi
09-22-2011, 09:22 AM
When we were working on our regs here in NM we sent them to George Allen three times for his input, and in one his reviews he suggested changing the language to read calendar year for the replacement issue. I think the federal guidelines are intentionally general to accommodate states that have "special" needs. Or maybe it was just an over sight, bottom line it's up to the state to define what constitutes a year.

jfseaman
09-22-2011, 11:32 PM
Why is this NAFA's problem? Why can't you send an email to your state falconry person and ask them?
Because we've already gotten a different answer from each admin, probably would get different from LE in the field. We need an official position statement from the department directors. I can't just e-mail a DFG director but out strength in numbers organization can.

Silver Sage
09-23-2011, 01:01 AM
Because we've already gotten a different answer from each admin, probably would get different from LE in the field. We need an official position statement from the department directors. I can't just e-mail a DFG director but out strength in numbers organization can.

Every state I have looked into has very clear definition. You're from California correct? Here is what the mighty state of California has to say.

(H) Definition of Replacement Period. (§21.29 CFR) The
12 month period for replacing birds begins on March 1, of
each year.

As I was taught back in hunters safety many years ago, learn the regs and carry a copy in your vehicle. Knowing what what is in the regs goes along way when you are in a discussion with LE and permit offices. The regs are clear and you have grounds to prove the facts, you may not agree with what is written but living by the rules will never cause you problems, bending the rules and not knowing what they are will always lead to problems.

jfseaman
09-23-2011, 01:23 AM
Every state I have looked into has very clear definition. You're from California correct? Here is what the mighty state of California has to say.

(H) Definition of Replacement Period. (§21.29 CFR) The
12 month period for replacing birds begins on March 1, of
each year.

As I was taught back in hunters safety many years ago, learn the regs and carry a copy in your vehicle. Knowing what what is in the regs goes along way when you are in a discussion with LE and permit offices. The regs are clear and you have grounds to prove the facts, you may not agree with what is written but living by the rules will never cause you problems, bending the rules and not knowing what they are will always lead to problems.
Ahh the wonders of being literal, pedantic and insulting in one go.

I wasn't being literal except for the different answers part, that's true.

We can know the regs and even carry them, doesn't mean local LE or admin know them or read them or the worst follow them.

Example: One of our guys spent 3 hours with local LE teaching him the regs so he didn't confiscate the birds and haul my staff to jail. I was on the phone with same LE for 45 minutes. He made up on the spot that my staff had to carry a copy of the contract or he was trespassing.

OK so back to normal, every man for himself so where there is confusion in the regs, your on your own because "why is this a NAFA problem"

Silver Sage
09-23-2011, 01:29 AM
Hypothetical:
A master class falconer started the 2011 year with no birds and trapped a RT and a Coops in the fall. The RT is electrocuted in Dec. Can the falconer replace that bird with a wild take? When? From what I read, he cannot take another bird from the wild that year. Whether or not January means a new year is subjective and left up to the state, right?


IDAHO

010.DEFINITIONS.
01. Calendar Year. January 1 through December 31, as defined by the state of Idaho to address any
reference to the use of the terms twelve-month (12) period, annual, or year within this rule and federal regulations.
(3-29-10)

In this situation he can trap a bird Jan 1st and it will count for one of his two wild take birds for the year of 2012.

California

(H) Definition of Replacement Period. (§21.29 CFR) The 12 month period for replacing birds begins on March 1, of each year.

In this situation he would not be allowed to trap another bird until March 1st.

As I stated above just look into the state regs that apply to you and you will likely avoid problems. It may take a couple of hours to become familiar with what is written but it could save you a huge headache.

Silver Sage
09-23-2011, 01:59 AM
Ahh the wonders of being literal, pedantic and insulting in one go.

I wasn't being literal except for the different answers part, that's true.

OK so back to normal, every man for himself so where there is confusion in the regs, your on your own because "why is this a NAFA problem"

You asked above for NAFA to get a clear definition for your paticular situation. There is a clear deffinition and if the issue comes up pull out the regs and show them. Why should NAFA get involved? There are issues that need to be resolved but this isn't one and NAFA dosen't need to be involved. Do we agree?



Example: One of our guys spent 3 hours with local LE teaching him the regs so he didn't confiscate the birds and haul my staff to jail. I was on the phone with same LE for 45 minutes. He made up on the spot that my staff had to carry a copy of the contract or he was trespassing.

I have a very easy way of dealing with things when I know I am right and I am dealing with LE, I simple state that they show me in code where I am wrong or I am leaving, if they choose to detain me I ask them to arrest me or let me leave. At that point their hands are tied and they need to make a choice as to wether to make an arrest or let you go.

If I were in the situation that you describe I would make certian I was aware of the requirements on carrying paperwork and where the information is covered if it is not covered I would force the officers hand and let him make an arrest or let me go.

Yes there are overzealous officers that may arrest you but they are far fewer than is reported and yes I have experience here. I am certain that the officer I was involved with will cite me for littering if ever he sees a gum wrapper fall from my pocket but he will make sure the charges will stick before he does cite me again. The day it all began I visited with him, sheriffs officers from 2 counties and the state police and with 7 or 8 officers present I pushed him to make an arrest or let me leave, he stated that I could leave but said he would cite me. Weeks later I got a citation in the mail fought it and won, because I was right and I knew I was all along. It did take meeting with his higher ups to get him to quit following me but it has been 5 years since we had our last incidence and it was atleast a monthly thing for him to find me in the field or make random inspections. I just made certain I was always obeying the law and had nothing to worry about. Yes this left me the potential of dealing with the *** **** but I proved my point and he hasn't bothered me since and we live within a few miles of each other in a rural area.

I will add if I hadn't been certain I was right and had a copy of the regs with me I wouldn't have been so biligerant because it could have lead to me being cited for additional charges.

jfseaman
09-23-2011, 09:52 AM
Hi Brad,


I find your contribution to this thread overly aggressive and it seems to me a personal attack. If that's not the case, no problem.

You need to file a formal complaint with that departments internal affairs.

As it seems I'm to dumb, please find the definition of the take year for Fred Fogg of NC.confusedd

Why is it a NAFA problem to get clarifications on the regulations and help the state clubs do the same? If this is not not NAFA's mission, then do we need NAFA? Just do it all as individuals.;)

FredFogg
09-23-2011, 11:18 AM
IDAHO

010.DEFINITIONS.
01. Calendar Year. January 1 through December 31, as defined by the state of Idaho to address any
reference to the use of the terms twelve-month (12) period, annual, or year within this rule and federal regulations.
(3-29-10)

In this situation he can trap a bird Jan 1st and it will count for one of his two wild take birds for the year of 2012.

California

(H) Definition of Replacement Period. (§21.29 CFR) The 12 month period for replacing birds begins on March 1, of each year.

In this situation he would not be allowed to trap another bird until March 1st.

As I stated above just look into the state regs that apply to you and you will likely avoid problems. It may take a couple of hours to become familiar with what is written but it could save you a huge headache.

Cool Brad, can you please look up the NC Falconry regulations and let me know where it defines a year?

Saluqi
09-23-2011, 11:38 AM
Why is it a NAFA problem to get clarifications on the regulations and help the state clubs do the same? If this is not not NAFA's mission, then do we need NAFA? Just do it all as individuals.;)


Great idea Fred, why don't you write a brief proposal and send it to Larry Dickerson and Bob Welle and get it on the November board meeting agenda. If the board approves it, then you could put together a committee to gather the information and maintain a database of how each state defines a year. NAFA is member volunteer organization and working together with the board and officers all members have the power to make things happen.

Silver Sage
09-23-2011, 02:46 PM
Hi Brad,

I find your contribution to this thread overly aggressive and it seems to me a personal attack. If that's not the case, no problem.

You need to file a formal complaint with that departments internal affairs.

As it seems I'm to dumb, please find the definition of the take year for Fred Fogg of NC.confusedd

Why is it a NAFA problem to get clarifications on the regulations and help the state clubs do the same? If this is not not NAFA's mission, then do we need NAFA? Just do it all as individuals.;)

You’re right and I’m sorry but you are asking for NAFA’s help and taking a little indicative will resolve your problem, it took me ten minutes to find it.





Cool Brad, can you please look up the NC Falconry regulations and let me know where it defines a year?



15A NCAC 10H .0810 TAKING RAPTORS
No raptor shall be taken from the wild in this state except by a person holding a currently valid falconry permit as defined in Rule .0801 of this Section from this state or another state that issues non-resident falconry permits or licenses and a currently valid resident or non-resident falconry license, and then only in accordance with the following instructions:
(1) Young birds not capable of flight (eyasses) may not be taken without a special permit issued by the commission. These permits shall be issued only to persons holding general or master class falconry permits and are valid during the period May 1 through June 30.
(2) First year (passage) birds may be taken only during the period September 4 through December 31, except that marked raptors may be retrapped at any time.
* No more than two wild taken birds may be taken by the same permittee during this period.

The way I read this is your take season totals May 1 – June 30 and Sept 4- Dec 31 during this time you are allowed 2 birds TOTAL!

I feel these items are clear and have been resolved, when you know what is written you can prove your point and be done with it in most cases.

YARAK191
09-23-2011, 06:50 PM
Brad pm me ur email address. I want u to read n email I got from. Nc permits

FredFogg
09-23-2011, 07:16 PM
You’re right and I’m sorry but you are asking for NAFA’s help and taking a little indicative will resolve your problem, it took me ten minutes to find it.

15A NCAC 10H .0810 TAKING RAPTORS
No raptor shall be taken from the wild in this state except by a person holding a currently valid falconry permit as defined in Rule .0801 of this Section from this state or another state that issues non-resident falconry permits or licenses and a currently valid resident or non-resident falconry license, and then only in accordance with the following instructions:
(1) Young birds not capable of flight (eyasses) may not be taken without a special permit issued by the commission. These permits shall be issued only to persons holding general or master class falconry permits and are valid during the period May 1 through June 30.
(2) First year (passage) birds may be taken only during the period September 4 through December 31, except that marked raptors may be retrapped at any time.
* No more than two wild taken birds may be taken by the same permittee during this period.

The way I read this is your take season totals May 1 – June 30 and Sept 4- Dec 31 during this time you are allowed 2 birds TOTAL!

I feel these items are clear and have been resolved, when you know what is written you can prove your point and be done with it in most cases.

Brad, all you quoted was the season take, period, not the definition of a year. The question still arises, if someone takes 2 wild take birds in December, does he have to wait until the next December before he can take 2 more birds. What you cited, even if one had it on their person would not give a clear definition of when a person can take birds and would not show the LE that this is exactly right or wrong. So, sorry, you haven't shown me anything that clears up the problem being discussed.

Silver Sage
09-23-2011, 10:23 PM
Brad, all you quoted was the season take, period, not the definition of a year. The question still arises, if someone takes 2 wild take birds in December, does he have to wait until the next December before he can take 2 more birds. What you cited, even if one had it on their person would not give a clear definition of when a person can take birds and would not show the LE that this is exactly right or wrong. So, sorry, you haven't shown me anything that clears up the problem being discussed.

Fred I see where you are coming from after reading more of your regulations and I should have done so before commenting. I would recommend that you get written clarification from the state falconry coordinator. I would then make sure that your local office recieves a copy as well.

It does appear to me that the interpretation given that started this thread is probably correct as it says many times in your regulations 'The permittee … may not obtain more than two raptors taken from the wild for replacement during any period of 12 months.” Meaning from the date you trap a bird until one year later. If you question this get written clarification. I know you live by the policy of don’t ask the question cause you might not like the answer but getting everyone on the same page will keep you out of trouble.

Also read thru the stuff a couple of times and find the things that are not clear that may apply to you and have them clarified. Does your state have a clear stance on CB or hybrids? How about birds not managed by the Feds/MBTA, do they require a permit, banding, are they even allowed for falconry? If it applies to you and is not clear get it clarified (it may take some work but even one lowly little falconer can get it done with a little work). If you don’t like the decision work with your state club to try to get issues changed (this part isn’t easy) if that fails and it really is of importance that would be the time a national organization would need to step in.

FredFogg
09-23-2011, 11:55 PM
Fred I see where you are coming from after reading more of your regulations and I should have done so before commenting. I would recommend that you get written clarification from the state falconry coordinator. I would then make sure that your local office recieves a copy as well.

It does appear to me that the interpretation given that started this thread is probably correct as it says many times in your regulations 'The permittee … may not obtain more than two raptors taken from the wild for replacement during any period of 12 months.” Meaning from the date you trap a bird until one year later. If you question this get written clarification. I know you live by the policy of don’t ask the question cause you might not like the answer but getting everyone on the same page will keep you out of trouble.

Also read thru the stuff a couple of times and find the things that are not clear that may apply to you and have them clarified. Does your state have a clear stance on CB or hybrids? How about birds not managed by the Feds/MBTA, do they require a permit, banding, are they even allowed for falconry? If it applies to you and is not clear get it clarified (it may take some work but even one lowly little falconer can get it done with a little work). If you don’t like the decision work with your state club to try to get issues changed (this part isn’t easy) if that fails and it really is of importance that would be the time a national organization would need to step in.

Brad, I am very active in my local falconry club and our club is very active with our state folks. We had a meeting back in March with them and went over line by line of what they were proposing as our new regs. We missed this thing about getting a definition of what the year really is. My thought on it is that in our state, we have a law that states all hunting licenses are only a year and renewable each year. We found out this because we asked if we could make our state falconry license for 5 years instead of 1 and they told us the law would have to be changed first so we stuck with the 1 year license. All hunting licenses expire on June 30th, so it is renewed on July 1st. So to me, if our falconry licnese is renewed each July 1st, that would be when everything is reset, including wild take. And this is what I am going to suggest to our state people but again, it is up to them, not me. So we will see.

jfseaman
09-24-2011, 02:13 AM
Great idea Fred, why don't you write a brief proposal and send it to Larry Dickerson and Bob Welle and get it on the November board meeting agenda. If the board approves it, then you could put together a committee to gather the information and maintain a database of how each state defines a year. NAFA is member volunteer organization and working together with the board and officers all members have the power to make things happen.

No matter how I read the above, it does not fall flatteringly on NAFA.

jfseaman
09-24-2011, 02:28 AM
You’re right and I’m sorry but you are asking for NAFA’s help and taking a little indicative will resolve your problem, it took me ten minutes to find it.
...
I am amazed that someone so inteligent yet pedantic could fail to comprehend that it was never my 'problem' but indeed the 'problem' of Fred Fogg and the falconers of the great state of North Carolina as well as other states.

Saluqi
09-24-2011, 08:48 AM
No matter how I read the above, it does not fall flatteringly on NAFA.

Fred, what I'm saying is that if you want "NAFA" (NAFA is actually a collection of volunteers) to do something for you, maybe you should volunteer to do it for NAFA, so that every one could benefit. Whenever someone emails Larry or one of the directors and says "NAFA should do such and such" or "what is NAFA doing about such and such?", do those people really think that NAFA has a hit team that is on standby waiting to do all of these little assignments that people think of? No, of course not, it takes effort and manpower, and to be honest all of the directors, officers and volunteers are pretty darn busy. So if you as a member has an idea that would be to the benefit of falconry, NAFA members, or NAFA itself, then you can either volunteer to do the job yourself to the benefit of all, or if it's a big effort then you can talk your director, or Larry and work on putting together a proposal which would include things like the purpose, cost, benefits, implementation, etc. Then you can present the proposal to the board and see where it goes from there, it's really not that complicated. I remember in one of Ralph Rogers last reports as director at large he said that in the past members all wanted to know what they could do for NAFA, and today the members all want to know what NAFA can do for them. There's give and take in every relationship, in order to get something back, you've got to put something in.

jfseaman
09-24-2011, 06:43 PM
Fred, what I'm saying is that if you want "NAFA" (NAFA is actually a collection of volunteers) to do something for you, maybe you should volunteer to do it for NAFA, so that every one could benefit. Whenever someone emails Larry or one of the directors and says "NAFA should do such and such" or "what is NAFA doing about such and such?", do those people really think that NAFA has a hit team that is on standby waiting to do all of these little assignments that people think of? No, of course not, it takes effort and manpower, and to be honest all of the directors, officers and volunteers are pretty darn busy. So if you as a member has an idea that would be to the benefit of falconry, NAFA members, or NAFA itself, then you can either volunteer to do the job yourself to the benefit of all, or if it's a big effort then you can talk your director, or Larry and work on putting together a proposal which would include things like the purpose, cost, benefits, implementation, etc. Then you can present the proposal to the board and see where it goes from there, it's really not that complicated. I remember in one of Ralph Rogers last reports as director at large he said that in the past members all wanted to know what they could do for NAFA, and today the members all want to know what NAFA can do for them. There's give and take in every relationship, in order to get something back, you've got to put something in.
Let's see, how have I tried to give to NAFA and the falconers of North America. Oh yeah, I remember.

I ran for DAL. Lost to a friend but kept him honest.

I volunteered to run the 'IT' program but when the director in charge got very high intensity and lied about how often I gave my status reports, it became work and unpleasant so I asked to be relieved from the project.

The standard model of problem solving within NAFA is exactly as you said.

Make a proposal.
Get it approved by the president
Volunteer to run the project.
Spend more time doing status reports than doing anything constructive.
Blah, blah, blah.

After being a blind supporter, I have been educated as a result of attempting to get involved.crazyy

All this really needs for the states that are not clear is a call to the proper level in the departments to get a position paper. Job done. NAFA would turn it into a million dollar project or as you as a director point out just leave it to each individual falconer within the state, you'd never get an official position from the director just what ever the person on the phone thinks at that moment.confusedd

But we've been through this all before, no sense rehashing it.frus)