from the UK prospective

[dirty dog]

hi guys . this subject has proberly been done to death but from a uk prospective if say for example one would need to catch 50 rabits in 6 days. what would you choose. redtail. or harris. im only asking as the harris in falconry in the uk is seen as a poor relation compaired to the redtail. plenty of arguments about the subject over here. i really like the versatilaty of the harris which i feel is its downfall in the uk. jeff.

[Dirthawking]

For me it would really depend on a few things.

one bird or multiple allowed?
type of terrain?
Out door temperature?

[dirty dog]

For me it would really depend on a few things.

one bird or multiple allowed?
type of terrain?
Out door temperature?thanks for the reply. one bird same sex. out door temp. would it have an effect i would really be intersted if it would as i have not heard temp affecting uk birds. as of yet. jeff.ps the uk is in winter aprox 70 pc damp.

[PeteJ]

Not to condone such behavior particularly, but, several factors need to be taken into account. Conditions (cold or not)? RT is not bothered by cold and damp the way a Harris is, but RT do not like the real heat like a Harris' does. Habitat (heavy undergrowth or not, closed or open ground)? RTs are great at slamming into heavy cover and penetrating it to score a bunny for instance. But, if the cover is very dense and cannot be penetrated easily, then a Harris' is nimble and will flutter over the cover keeping the prey in view until an opening is available and then quickly suck up the fleeing rabbit in the small or wide opening. Condition of the hawks themselves (in proper weight or not)? Both species are pretty good liars, but I do believe a Harris' is superb actor at conveying that it 'seems' to be ready better than the RT is. And hence the Harris' may not be being 'read' as precisely as the RT which will have an effect on their ability to take quarry repeatedly and accurately. If rabbits were all in an easy place, I'm sure a Harris' at the top of his/her form would out compete a RT just because the Harris' is much quicker and more agile.
These species have been influenced by completely different evolutionary pressures, where one (the RT) has a strategy of wait, wait, wait, then commit with everything you can muster to score that kill. If they miss, they aren't burned out by any means, but, they do better if they don't have to do again right away. Normally they hunt for just themselves, so when they make a kill and get a little food in them, they are about to switch off after a certain amount of food is obtained.
A Harris' has evolved in a different way, that often has very little to do with hunger, but rather participation in the hunt of the group. A bird that doesn't feel that much like hunting at a particular time, often cannot help themselves when other members of the group begin a hunt. As such, if they are in prime condition they are more likely to repeatedly join in on hunts even when they don't need to.

[dirty dog]

Not to condone such behavior particularly, but, several factors need to be taken into account. Conditions (cold or not)? RT is not bothered by cold and damp the way a Harris is, but RT do not like the real heat like a Harris' does. Habitat (heavy undergrowth or not, closed or open ground)? RTs are great at slamming into heavy cover and penetrating it to score a bunny for instance. But, if the cover is very dense and cannot be penetrated easily, then a Harris' is nimble and will flutter over the cover keeping the prey in view until an opening is available and then quickly suck up the fleeing rabbit in the small or wide opening. Condition of the hawks themselves (in proper weight or not)? Both species are pretty good liars, but I do believe a Harris' is superb actor at conveying that it 'seems' to be ready better than the RT is. And hence the Harris' may not be being 'read' as precisely as the RT which will have an effect on their ability to take quarry repeatedly and accurately. If rabbits were all in an easy place, I'm sure a Harris' at the top of his/her form would out compete a RT just because the Harris' is much quicker and more agile.
These species have been influenced by completely different evolutionary pressures, where one (the RT) has a strategy of wait, wait, wait, then commit with everything you can muster to score that kill. If they miss, they aren't burned out by any means, but, they do better if they don't have to do again right away. Normally they hunt for just themselves, so when they make a kill and get a little food in them, they are about to switch off after a certain amount of food is obtained.
A Harris' has evolved in a different way, that often has very little to do with hunger, but rather participation in the hunt of the group. A bird that doesn't feel that much like hunting at a particular time, often cannot help themselves when other members of the group begin a hunt. As such, if they are in prime condition they are more likely to repeatedly join in on hunts even when they don't need to.what an exellent reply. do you come onto the uk forum if noy WHY.

[PeteJ]

what an exellent reply. do you come onto the uk forum if noy WHY.
If you mean the IFF, sure I come on there. Just not as much as I used to. They're a little to hard on people on there and most of it just sniping and trying to keep things elite. I understand that in many parts of the world there is virtually no protection for raptor resource, wild or captive produced, and anyone can get them depending on where they are, with no mandatory oversight like we have here. But at the same time, who are we, as established falconers to say someone that has just gotten a bird and would like some help should just say get rid of it and get some help first? Granted, they should, but these same people that are criticizing make no attempt whatsoever to help the bird that has fallen into the wrong hands. It isn't that birds' fault, the new owner needs some help or at least some help to find someone locally that can help them. Instead, there just seems to be criticism and snide remarks. Really shows us in a bad light I think.
Not that this doesn't happen on this forum, but, it usually is surround a very few people that just have borderline personality disorders rather than a trend of the group. Chris and the mentors do a good job of dissuading this type of behavior here with warnings or bannings. He won't coddle a dog for poopin' on the carpet here...he'll punish it!

[Hawkmom]

Pete was one of the leaders in several instances in the IFF of helping a newcomer to falconry and birds of prey who have NO local resources. At times the birds are found in the wild, dumped on them and they want to help. One fellow felt sorry for the poor plight of the birds sold on the streets of Vietnam. Pete, I among others guide them to get the bird healthy and hunting. For possible falconry or release. That is the good of the IFF. The others who turn their noses up at them have to remember that the first falconers had just at few resources. I sometimes find the sniping at the IFF amusing. I really would like some of those who make such comments to get in the field and take game with their birds. There are talkers and there are hawkers. The IFF seems to have a lot of the former.

[dirty dog]

If you mean the IFF, sure I come on there. Just not as much as I used to. They're a little to hard on people on there and most of it just sniping and trying to keep things elite. I understand that in many parts of the world there is virtually no protection for raptor resource, wild or captive produced, and anyone can get them depending on where they are, with no mandatory oversight like we have here. But at the same time, who are we, as established falconers to say someone that has just gotten a bird and would like some help should just say get rid of it and get some help first? Granted, they should, but these same people that are criticizing make no attempt whatsoever to help the bird that has fallen into the wrong hands. It isn't that birds' fault, the new owner needs some help or at least some help to find someone locally that can help them. Instead, there just seems to be criticism and snide remarks. Really shows us in a bad light I think.
Not that this doesn't happen on this forum, but, it usually is surround a very few people that just have borderline personality disorders rather than a trend of the group. Chris and the mentors do a good job of dissuading this type of behavior here with warnings or bannings. He won't coddle a dog for poopin' on the carpet here...he'll punish it!as the saying goes on the IFF its where the world falconers FIGHT . the problem over here is one can get any bird one wants it is just down to how much you want to spend. from a merlin at around 400 dollars to a golden eagle around 7000 dollars . no licence . no experiance . nedded just the money.

[Dirthawking]

Please stay on the original topic and not turn this thread into a bash the IFF thread.

[dirty dog]

Please stay on the original topic and not turn this thread into a bash the IFF thread..????

[dirty dog]

Please stay on the original topic and not turn this thread into a bash the IFF thread.sorry but i was not bashing any one or tryingh to . jeff.

[Dirthawking]

sorry but i was not bashing any one or tryingh to . jeff.


Trust me. It will turn into one.

[mainefalconer]

Why in the world is a gos not an option? If you really want to stack bunnies like cordwood.... get a gos. toungeout

[FredFogg]

Not that this doesn't happen on this forum, but, it usually is surround a very few people that just have borderline personality disorders rather than a trend of the group. Chris and the mentors do a good job of dissuading this type of behavior here with warnings or bannings. He won't coddle a dog for poopin' on the carpet here...he'll punish it!

Hey, Hey, Hey, disorders? I don't (tic, tic, tic) have a clue what you are talking about! toungeout :D

[FredFogg]

Why in the world is a gos not an option? If you really want to stack bunnies like cordwood.... get a gos. toungeout

clapp clapp clapp

[adam norrie]

Why in the world is a gos not an option? If you really want to stack bunnies like cordwood.... get a gos. toungeout

Hi Scott,

The Gos will be over looked due to the perception of it being hard to train and probably the cost.
Harris hawks are nearly given away over here. Most Gos men here want imprints, that means it's more involved and a lot of falconers don't want that.

But 50 rabbits in 6 days. A gun!

[dirty dog]

Hi Scott,

The Gos will be over looked due to the perception of it being hard to train and probably the cost.
Harris hawks are nearly given away over here. Most Gos men here want imprints, that means it's more involved and a lot of falconers don't want that.

But 50 rabbits in 6 days. A gun!no you are quite wrong.a real austriner wants a parent reared gosshawk, not a bird that does not know what it is .as for 50 rabbits in 6 days .well maybe over the top but a good bird should get around 20 ish in 6 days.