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davidfrank
02-21-2012, 03:45 PM
Sampo vs Barrel Swivel

While working on a book I investigated the internal nature of both the Sampo and Barrel swivel. It is easy to draw some conclusions after seeing how these swivels are made.

Also, a friend from Montana was placing what could be called "Grouse Deflectors" on fences in areas where Sage and Sharp-tail Grouse commonly fly over barb-wire fences placed on high areas in a local flyway. The number of dead grouse convinced him that some sort of spinning deflector was needed to condition the grouse to choose a different course thereby saving their lives. Just by chance he happened to use both Sampo and Barrel swivels on the small spinning deflectors.

What he found was very interesting. The swivels spun around powered by the wind at a good speed and were very effective in turning the grouse from that pathway. However, the barrel swivels came apart in short order. The swivels were put under extraordinary load and use. The Sampo held up to the abuse but the brass rivet in the internal portion of the barrel swivel actually reformed (or deformed) during use resulting in swivel failure. The Barrel swivel was a 570# model and the Sampo swivel was a 300# model.

Although this is extraordinary use and the hawk on the lawn will only place an equal wear over an extremely very long time, it is nonetheless worth mentioning.

I have placed a small * on the images in the spot that will first show wear in a swivel. If that area becomes loose and a small gap appears then the swivel may needs replacing.

I don't normally make postings on the Forum but I thought this was very interesting. My time in responding will be limited but I would like to read the discussion as the Barrel Swivel has made a place for itself since the advent and common use of the braided tethering system.

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/mfcfalconphotos/Sampo-BarrelCompare.jpg

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/mfcfalconphotos/Sampo_Barrelapplication.jpg

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/mfcfalconphotos/Sampo_Barrelafteruse.jpg

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/mfcfalconphotos/BarrelCutaway1.jpg

FredFogg
02-21-2012, 04:20 PM
Very interesting David! Thanks for the information. My thought is before a barrel swivel would wear out on a leash for a raptor, the leash itself would wear out. But your point about it does wear out eventually should be taken and the swivel should be checked over before using it on a new leash.

Alan
02-21-2012, 04:53 PM
David,

Why is the Sampo swivel installed upside down on the grouse deflector? I was taught to always have the spinning shaft DOWN. This allows any dirt/dust/water to fall out during use. Having it up allows dirt/water/ice to remain in the swivel & wear on the ball bearings and/or freeze up the swivel.

I have seen many falconers use their Sampos upside down & never understood why.

I've also noted that the place to watch for wear on Sampos is where the rings go thru the posts. Hard to explain but the holes eventually get bigger and the posts get thinner until they eventually crack.

Alan

weathervaneman
02-21-2012, 08:49 PM
I've got a Sampo swivel that craped out in the course of one season. I fix bicycles and I have seen many ball bearings that have broke in half.
I can't believe which end is up would matter. I understand these swivels are made for deep salt water fishing.
Morris

Dirthawking
02-21-2012, 08:57 PM
it does not matter when it comes to water. It does however when it comes stuff like bird poo and dirt.

Ken S.
02-21-2012, 09:56 PM
Thanks for sharing that David! Very interesting.

weathervaneman
02-21-2012, 10:04 PM
I just ran right out and woke my bird up to check the swivel. It's on up right so it ought to last forever. My first one must have been up side down.
Morris

Lowachi
02-21-2012, 10:09 PM
I just ran right out and woke my bird up to check the swivel. It's on up right so it ought to last forever. My first one must have been up side down.
Morris


now that's funny!!:D

bobpayne
02-22-2012, 09:37 AM
Thanks for sharing that David! Very interesting.
Started using the barrel swivels last season, picking up some new sampos from you to use in the future, thanks for explaining how they are made.

awahl
02-22-2012, 10:34 AM
Great info. Thanks everyone. I was under the impression that the SPRO swivels were stainless steel. I am guessing that the brass is the weak link in the barrel swivel. Looking at the following page, it says that the swivels are stainless. That being said, I do know of at least one that popped apart on a falconry bird. I use them, and do inspect the seam regularly. I toss them when there is enough play in the seam that they rock a little from side to side. Actually, I just use them for something else at that point.
http://www.cabelas.com/swivels-snaps-clevises-spro-heavy-swivels-150-black-3.shtml?WT.tsrc=CSE&WT.mc_id=GoogleBaseUSA&WT.z_mc_id1=738800&rid=40&mr:trackingCode=C20E7452-F5D2-DF11-82EF-001B21631C34&mr:referralID=NA

rkumetz
02-22-2012, 10:39 AM
I've got a Sampo swivel that craped out in the course of one season. I fix bicycles and I have seen many ball bearings that have broke in half.
I can't believe which end is up would matter. I understand these swivels are made for deep salt water fishing.
Morris

Because if you have the open rotating end down debris falls out rather
than staying in the bearings as it would if it is used with the open side
facing up. Get some sand or other abrasive stuff in there and they will
just grind themselves to death or jam up and stop rotating. The latter is
probably going to happen first when the clog with mutes.

davidfrank
02-22-2012, 03:59 PM
Hi Alan,

Yes, he put the Sampo upside down on the grouse deflector. You are correct that there is an up and down. The body of the Sampo will start to get loose just about the time the top ring is wearing through the brass housing. Nothing lasts forever.

David Frank

bluejack
02-22-2012, 05:38 PM
Great thread David,
Thanks for posting ringing this to our attention.

Chris L.
02-22-2012, 11:41 PM
Great thread David. Thank you for the information.

Lowachi
02-23-2012, 03:14 AM
thanks David. calling in the am ta order stuff

oldguy
02-23-2012, 11:02 AM
Interesting information David.

There's something about barrel swivels that I don't care for. Just me.
If I had a need for less costly swivels, I would use Sampo, and lets applaud the guy who cares enough to try this. A great example of someone who sees a problem and takes measures to help a species.

davidfrank
02-24-2012, 05:11 PM
Yes, I've seen this advert at Cabella's for stainless steel barrel swivels. However, when the swivel is made there is a male part (rivet shaped piece) and a female part. The female part is cast much wider so it can go over the male part and then it is stamped with a machine down over the male rivet part right the way around the circumference so the sides are then lined up parallel. Stainless steel is far too hard to do this with. If they are making them now out of stainless steel it probably has some other metals in it so it can be smushed (not a proper word but better than smashed) down over the male part forming the final cylindrical barrel swivel. Saying that, it would probably be much stronger than the nickel plated brass swivel. However, I have not seen one yet. Maybe I will order one from Cabella's and grind on it to see if this is indeed a new version.

David Frank
Western Sporting

awahl
02-24-2012, 05:33 PM
Thanks David. I appreciate the information, and the descriptions above. There are many grades of stainless out there as well. We recently bought silverware that was "stainless" and rusted in less than two weeks. By the way, I have always had terrific service from Western Sporting and have always appreciated it.

oscarpack@yahoo.com
02-27-2012, 11:51 PM
I have some of the stainless barrel swivels, took one to the grinder, it is brass! I am disappointed, but enlightened also.
Thanks
Oscar

oldguy
02-28-2012, 12:05 AM
Too many people believe the word "stainless" implies that it will not rust or corrode.
The word is stainLESS. I dropped a Sampo swivel in the pea gravel in my mews. Has yet gotten caught in my stall rake I clean up with. I'll be curious to see what it looks like if I ever find it.

davidfrank
04-06-2012, 04:04 PM
I did finally order some of the swivels from Cabella's by clicking on the link supplied by "awal" above. I ground on them and they are indeed brass. To the guy who markets, stainless obviously means will not rust and I guess brass does not actually rust.

David
Western Sporting

COMEAUX
04-06-2012, 04:34 PM
Too many people believe the word "stainless" implies that it will not rust or corrode.
The word is stainLESS. I dropped a Sampo swivel in the pea gravel in my mews. Has yet gotten caught in my stall rake I clean up with. I'll be curious to see what it looks like if I ever find it.

It won't rust if it is a good grade stainless,but sampo's are not a good grade.

Dirthawking
04-09-2012, 12:15 PM
I did finally order some of the swivels from Cabella's by clicking on the link supplied by "awal" above. I ground on them and they are indeed brass. To the guy who markets, stainless obviously means will not rust and I guess brass does not actually rust.

David
Western Sporting

David, did you by any chance contact the manufacter of the swivels with you findings and ask why the metal is mis represented?

rkumetz
04-09-2012, 12:32 PM
David, did you by any chance contact the manufacter of the swivels with you findings and ask why the metal is mis represented?

The misrepresentation (if any) was probably Cabelas and not the mfr.
That being said, if it said "stainless" and not "stainless steel" then they probably did not misrepresent the product as much as not accurately describe it. That could have been deliberate but I kind of doubt it.
The real test is whether or not they would give you a refund if you told them that it was not stainless steel and that their catalog is misleading.

Dirthawking
04-09-2012, 12:41 PM
The misrepresentation (if any) was probably Cabelas and not the mfr.
That being said, if it said "stainless" and not "stainless steel" then they probably did not misrepresent the product as much as not accurately describe it. That could have been deliberate but I kind of doubt it.
The real test is whether or not they would give you a refund if you told them that it was not stainless steel and that their catalog is misleading.

agreed! From the Cabelas web site on the item description:

SPRO's Heavy Swivels offer a truly compact size without sacrificing strength. They deliver incomparable reliability when after even the largest catfish, tuna or sharks. They are engineered with the finest high-grade stainless steel and premium components.
Color: Black


I wonder what part of it they "think" is stainless steel?

Dirthawking
04-09-2012, 12:46 PM
Also, I can not find any information on the spro.com website on what these are made out of. Infact, no description at all other than heavy duty swivel and size/weight limit.

rkumetz
04-09-2012, 12:46 PM
I looked briefly on the mfr's web page and did not see anything about
stainless steel: http://www.spro.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=30

borderhawk
04-09-2012, 12:47 PM
This is a wake up call for me because, for some reason, I'd been thinking that barrel swivels had ball bearings in them. I've always been in the habit of dripping a bit of 3-in-1 oil in my swivels at least once a year, and I'm betting doing that on a more regular basis would help the barrel swivels tremendously. Especially with a hard bating bird. One thing to remember is that being made for underwater use, these swivels are designed to get their lubrication from the water they're submerged in, like an aquarium pump that will burn out if ran dry.
On stainless steel, it's basically an "alloy".. which means "recipe" in metallurgy speak. With true stainless even the strongest magnets will not hold to it because it actually has no iron in it... which makes it not a 'steel' at all, really. So, if you carry a strong magnet in your pocket, you can check the quality of things labeled as stainless. It's become very popular to plate brass (or regular steels) with stainless because it's shiny/pretty (sells better), is much harder than brass, and doesn't oxidize. But, like David said, it's not soft at all, so it's not squishable/bendable, and much harder to cut. That's also why it's become so popular for knives as not only does it not have any iron in it to rust, but the harder properties of it help it hold an edge better.

Dirthawking
04-09-2012, 12:47 PM
http://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SHSB%2DALL

Opps, Ron I see we were both doing the same thing at the same time.

MarkT
04-09-2012, 01:34 PM
I wonder what part of it they "think" is stainless steel?

I'm guessing they are calling them stainless because of the rings.

Dirthawking
04-09-2012, 02:35 PM
I'm guessing they are calling them stainless because of the rings.


What rings? We are talking about the barrel swivels.

rkumetz
04-09-2012, 02:40 PM
What rings? We are talking about the barrel swivels.

Things not to say when your wife asks you what happened to your ring.......

Dirthawking
04-09-2012, 02:40 PM
clapp
Things not to say when your wife asks you what happened to your ring.......

Crusinberry
04-09-2012, 03:42 PM
agreed! From the Cabelas web site on the item description:
They are engineered with the finest high-grade stainless steel and premium components.
Color: Black
I wonder what part of it they "think" is stainless steel?

Technically, it says made WITH the "finest high grade stainless steel", so if their manufacturing stamps and such are made of stainless steel, then they are correct. The parts themselves are only described as being made of "premium components".

In my old business our products were often labelled and marketed in ways that I felt were VERY misleading... to the point of fraud, but we had big-time lawyers to take care of that.

OATS
04-10-2012, 01:57 AM
This is a wake up call for me because, for some reason, I'd been thinking that barrel swivels had ball bearings in them. I've always been in the habit of dripping a bit of 3-in-1 oil in my swivels at least once a year, and I'm betting doing that on a more regular basis would help the barrel swivels tremendously. Especially with a hard bating bird. One thing to remember is that being made for underwater use, these swivels are designed to get their lubrication from the water they're submerged in, like an aquarium pump that will burn out if ran dry.
On stainless steel, it's basically an "alloy".. which means "recipe" in metallurgy speak. With true stainless even the strongest magnets will not hold to it because it actually has no iron in it... which makes it not a 'steel' at all, really. So, if you carry a strong magnet in your pocket, you can check the quality of things labeled as stainless. It's become very popular to plate brass (or regular steels) with stainless because it's shiny/pretty (sells better), is much harder than brass, and doesn't oxidize. But, like David said, it's not soft at all, so it's not squishable/bendable, and much harder to cut. That's also why it's become so popular for knives as not only does it not have any iron in it to rust, but the harder properties of it help it hold an edge better.

There is a bit of misinformation in this post. The difference between iron and steel is the addition of relatively small amounts of carbon to make the iron harder. Stainless steel is steel and is largely still mostly iron. Small amounts of a varying combination of generally chromium, nickel, manganese, etc., are added to steel to give it resistance to oxidation, i.e., corrosion.

There certainly are methods of wordsmithing to imply they are "manufactured" from stainless w/o actually "containing" any. I use Spro swivels in my tethering gear so I will have to dissect a couple myself to see what they are constructed of.

davidfrank
04-14-2012, 11:48 AM
I recently learned that the construction of the Sampo swivel was not quite as I had shown on my original post and I wanted to bring it to the attention of the members. I managed to actually speak to the owner of Sampo Inc and shared with him my posting on NAFEX and the information about the grouse deflector with the use of different swivels. He emailed me later:

"Yes, it (my original cut-away drawing) is wrong. But, it does not matter. Long story. We had a customer who wanted to use the #8 swivel for bird deflectors on high voltage power lines. They had to be set by helicopters, and last a long time. We set up a drill press with an #8 swivel, and I think 10 lbs of tension. Knowing the RPM's of the press, we let it run to 1 million turns and then gave up. It is the balls that reduce the friction, the metal does not matter that much, until you add a lot of weight."

Brian Butts, Sampo Inc.




Well, we all know we must all keep an eye on the swivels as nothing lasts forever. However, the old #8 Sampo is and will be the work horse of falconry swivels going into the future. It would just be nice if we could see inside over time to check for wear.

http://i608.photobucket.com/albums/tt166/mfcfalconphotos/get-attachmentaspx.jpg


David Frank Western Sporting

oobie
12-03-2014, 01:47 PM
Bumping this thread as I just had two different sampo swivels quit on me in the last couple of weeks and was searching swivels. I only saw one mention in this thread of oiling swivels. Does anybody else do this? Curious if it extends the life of a sampo-style swivel to oil it from time to time...

MarkT
12-03-2014, 01:54 PM
Was it a sampo brand swivel or a sampo like swivel? Can you explain what you mean by the swivels quit on you? In 30 years, I haven't had a single sampo swivel fail. Maybe I just lose the to quick.

oobie
12-03-2014, 02:49 PM
Was it a sampo brand swivel or a sampo like swivel? Can you explain what you mean by the swivels quit on you? In 30 years, I haven't had a single sampo swivel fail. Maybe I just lose the to quick.

I was using these guys - size 8.

http://www.basspro.com/Sampo-Ball-Bearing-Swivel-with-Solid-Ring-&-Coastlock-Snap/product/15169/

Basically - they get stiff/quit turning - which obviously isn't safe for a hawk. I guess due to the nature of the the way they attach they are hanging the wrong way. My bird's jesses are the braided ones w' the bump that keeps them from picking them out. Otherwise, I'd just swap them out and use just a swivel when tethering. That may contribute to them picking up dust/mutes. Perhaps the cold exacerbated the dust/mutes that they may have picked up over the past few years. I've got more coming in the mail. They're not that steep so I guess buying a couple every 3 years isn't a big deal.

oobie
12-03-2014, 03:04 PM
Here's a photo of the old vs new swivels.

Probably doesn't make a difference, but I noticed the new one (on the leash) has an extra ring between the snap and the swivel vs the old one where the snap is directly attached to the swivel.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q175/stokesfoto/DSC_5757_zpsc01a7b99.jpg

JRedig
12-03-2014, 06:03 PM
I've never had one fail josh, but I don't use those on a tethered bird either. Mostly just in te field and transport.

Dirthawking
12-03-2014, 06:55 PM
Those coast locks are put together upside down. While not a problem when fishing, it is a problem with our birds. Opening should always point down to prevent dirt and mutes from fouling swivel.

Run them through some warm water and spray them down with teflon spray (not wd40) and see if that frees them up.

oobie
12-03-2014, 07:48 PM
I just got 4 more in the mail. They aren't too expensive. I got ~3 years out of the last 2 I bought. I should be set for 6 more. I chucked the other two. I'd rather not chance having a bird unexpectedly get tangled.

Hawkmom
12-03-2014, 11:16 PM
There are copycat swivels out there. Make sure they are genuine Sampo. I have used CoastLocks for years, but change them annually because the do wear. The point of failure I've had is with the wire clip. Metal fatigue from opening and closing had it snap off.

I've never used barrel swivels, and have never trusted them.

BUT, the newer Sampos have the wire ending on the INSIDE of the swivel where the jess/leash line can get hung up. The older ones, do not. I will find the thread on this issue and post it.

Hawkmom
12-03-2014, 11:28 PM
Here is the text of the email I sent to Sampo regarding the problems I now have with the coast lock swivels catching on my paracord jesses.

I've been using Sampo swivels since 1974 for falconry applications. In recent years. On the most recent swivels I've purchased. I've noticed a small change in the clip on the Coastlock #8 swivel that has make my falconry uses more difficult. It is where the wire wrap ends at the swivel. Instead of being on the opposite side of the opening end of the swivel. It is on the side where cord or line is threaded onto the swivel.
As a falconer, I use para cord jesses. This end snags on my para cord jesses when removing or attaching the jesses. Not a good thing. I also work with some birds that have difficult personalties. The snagging on the wire end when changing equipment and hinders a smooth transfer to field equipment. I have some older Sampo swivels that do not have this issue. They work much better and are easier to operate.

A simple adjustment in your manufacturing process would eliminate this problem altogether. Just have the wire wrapped on the other side of the swivel opening, like it was with older Sampo swivels.

In the photo attached, the copper colored swivel is the newer version where the wire ends inside. It snags on the paracord jesses I use and is a problem.

The black swivel is an older swivel and you will see that the wire ends on the outside/opposite side of the swivel. Making it much easier to use.

Thank you for looking into this matter.

Hawkmom
12-03-2014, 11:49 PM
Here is the text with Sampo's contact information:

Sampo Inc.
119 Remsen Road
P.O. Box 328
Barneveld, NY 13304
tel (315) 896-2606
fax (315) 896-6575

e-mail: info@sampoinc.com

I've been using Sampo swivels since 1974 for falconry applications. On the most recent swivels I've purchased. I've noticed a small change in the clip on the Coastlock #8 and other swivels (#6) that has make my falconry uses much more difficult. It is where the wire wrap ends at the swivel. Instead of being on the outside of the opening end of the swivel, it is on the inside where cord or line is threaded onto the swivel.

As a falconer, I use para cord jesses. This end snags on my para cord jesses when removing or attaching the jesses. Not a good thing. I also work with some raptorial birds that have difficult personalties. The snagging of the cord from the wire end when changing equipment and hinders a smooth transfer to field equipment. I have some older Sampo swivels that do not have this issue, because the wire ends on the OUTSIDE of the clip. They work much better and are easier to operate.

A simple adjustment in your manufacturing process would eliminate this problem altogether. Just have the wire wrapped on the other side of the swivel opening, like it was with older Sampo swivels.

In the photo attached, the copper colored swivel is the newer version where the wire ends inside. It snags on the paracord jesses I use and is a problem.

The black swivel at the top of the photo is an older version of the swivel and you will see that the wire ends on the outside/opposite side of the swivel opening. Making it much easier to use.

Thank you for looking into this matter.

Sincerely,

Karen ‘Kitty’ Carroll

Karen ‘Kitty’ Carroll

Hawkmom
12-03-2014, 11:53 PM
Here is the photo. I have a slow web connection and hope it posts.

dbleyepatches
12-04-2014, 01:54 AM
I used sampos my first year and had 2 fail and I couldn't get them to free up with boiling water or anything else. I recently acquired a few pineo swivels and I am never going back to sampos. 17 grams vs. 4 grams for the large pineo and no bearing to foul. They are expensive but two different people I know have 10+ year old pineos and they are showing no wear.

I do love the coast lock for field use though.

dbleyepatches
12-04-2014, 01:59 AM
Those coast locks are put together upside down. While not a problem when fishing, it is a problem with our birds. Opening should always point down to prevent dirt and mutes from fouling swivel.

Run them through some warm water and spray them down with teflon spray (not wd40) and see if that frees them up.

This is good information on the Teflon spray. When it dries it is completely dry and will not attract dirt like anything with oil in it.

borderhawk
01-31-2015, 08:37 PM
Bumping this thread as I just had two different sampo swivels quit on me in the last couple of weeks and was searching swivels. I only saw one mention in this thread of oiling swivels. Does anybody else do this? Curious if it extends the life of a sampo-style swivel to oil it from time to time...

I try to oil mine with 3-in-1 oil twice a year and have never had one fail on me. I think the longest I've used the same swivel has been about 4 years.

jmseegar
01-31-2015, 09:15 PM
Get a Pino swivel, only thing that you will regret is losing it.

Squirrelhawkin
01-31-2015, 09:23 PM
I have a Pineo swivel that I think is going on 8 years old and looks like new,no signs of wear at all. I tether my redtails,no free lofting even through the moult,so that swivel has some hours on it.