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Dirthawking
06-15-2012, 08:11 PM
I have a question that I "believe" I know the answer to. But, I wanted to ask those with more experience than me as I have never imprinted a bird myself.

I know that socialization and manning are an intrigal part to raising an eyas. I know that as they get older you will see how well you did. I have heard that most imprints will do better with manning of some kind through the molt.

My question is kinda two fold.

1) Can you ever slack off with the manning on a seasoned bird as compaired to an eyas?

2) Does the amount of manning required change from accipiter to falcon?

Lowachi
06-15-2012, 09:55 PM
have flown imprint redtails and falcons, both hybrid, peregrine & kestrals.
I never noticed any difference in maintenance between my ol' imprint RT's and the passage I've flown lately other than the passage needed some refresher courses/manning after the moult, where the imprints were ready faster.

My imprint falcons on the other hand, literally 'demand' of my time throughout the moult & I enjoy my mornings w/them. The chamber birds could care less, after they've been fed, ever aloof . Little is forgotten over the moult and either are ready ta rock in short order, since I regularly feed on the glove. My experience w/ passage falcons(only flew the kestrals 1 season and released) is limited to a 2nd hand passage tiercel prairie. He, without daily socialization & carrying, becomes quite the handful and quite wild again. Best treatment has been a tall perch in the house w/constant exposure to folks, bechins & dogs, as opposed to the shelf perch/block arrangement in the mews that the peregrines seem to enjoy.
My accipiter experience is only 2 passage goshawk females. Their socialization/manning neccessities were completely the opposite of each other. My first needed very little, the other was much like this lil prairie tiercel.

Probably doesn't answer yer questions. What I've found basically, you get out what you can put in. I've always enjoyed imprints and what I've gotten out of our years together. The extra daily stuff has always been worth it. (Sorta like marriage, ain't it???;))

accipiter007
06-16-2012, 01:31 AM
I am not sure if this is what you are looking. I imprintet a for the sake of argument a gyrxbarbary but in my opinion he is gyrxperegringe all the way. Any way i flew him for a few yrs and to yrs ago he started droping female redtails from high pitches, so i stoped flying him when a job turned up i was forced to put him up. While working out of state my wife just tosed him food, after being gone for six months of no attention. I walked in th door loved the wife and kidds then went to check on my husband slash imprint, the first thing he did was pick up a hunk of quail started chuping and trying to bring me the food. I layed my head down by him and he tryed shoveing food in my mouth. And that was after six months of 0 attention

accipiter007
06-16-2012, 01:33 AM
By the way that bird in his first yr looked identical to the bird in the middle of this site

Saluqi
06-16-2012, 09:01 AM
I don't man imprint goshawks by perching them in the house or by walking around with them strapped to the fist, in my opinion those are just opportunities for a negative experience to occur. During the pre-season reclamation period, manning an imprint gos takes the form of only dealing with it while it is being fed and in the form of workouts, vertical jumps for the most part. During the hunting season, manning only occurs in the field while hunting, or at home doing workouts. I also stake out my goshawks and weather them every day during the hunting season. In my opinion, imprint goshawks benefit greatly from active manning practices, and much less from just hanging out on a perch in the house.

I don't think you should ever slack off on active manning a goshawk, they need the exercise and mental stimulation throughout their lives to perform well in the field. During the molt I visit my gos for a couple of minutes several times a day, I don't really consider that manning, but maybe it is to a degree.

Falcons, I think like David has already said, the imprints seem pretty hardwired and remain tame and recognize the falconer probably as long as they live. I like having falcons perched in the house, but my little tiercel, who was pulled at 30 days and who behaves like an imprint, gets too comfortable and familiar if I bring him in too much and he may start to scream, a behavior I don't like to reinforce. With passage or chamber raised falcons, the more time they spend hanging out the tamer they will get. Falcons also benefit from active manning, obviously falcons get all jacked up around the time that they are used to go flying, likewise they also enjoy working for food by doing exercises, the more effort you put into chasing game and exercising a bird the stronger the bond becomes.

keitht
06-16-2012, 09:27 AM
1) Can you ever slack off with the manning on a seasoned bird as compaired to an eyas?

2) Does the amount of manning required change from accipiter to falcon? Question 1 is a little to open-ended with too many variables but - yes, in general, a well-seasoned bird takes very little to no "manning" during the off season.

Question 2. It makes a great difference whether or not its a falcon or accipiter. (which makes it difficult to answer question 1)

As stated above, falcons are naturally more mild mannered than accipiters. Imprint falcons do not require "manning." I subject imprint accipiters to intense socialization as a chick and up through the "withdrawal" period. This labor intensive period is over in their first year and they no longer require it afterwards. My present accipiter is semi-wild during the molt but when he is cut down in weight again will start right back up with no problems. If I remember correctly, Harry manages his accipiters in the same way.

That said, there is certainly nothing wrong with spending time with your imprint accipiter during the molt. And many of mine have spent the summer molting in my living room. But the labor intensiveness of their first season is a one time thing.

BestBeagler
06-16-2012, 09:30 AM
I know that socialization and manning are an intrigal part to raising an eyas. I know that as they get older you will see how well you did.

This is partly true, but the real test happens after penning or during the dispersion phase thatís when your handling techniques and weight control practices will be tested and where being able to read the individual bird will be most important. I say this because you can have a perfect well socialized and manned bird and it can all fall apart real fast with a cooper and slower with a gos. The tricky thing I think with a gos is because they are more forgiving they allow you to make more mistakes over time and accept it for awhile and then one day they will have enough, and you will be left wondering what you did wrong because up until that point they were seemingly fine with your handling techniques.

Early on during imprinting you are laying the ground work. The more solid you are early on the easier the bird will be handle and probably fly higher. Like Barry said at one point in time, "The longer you fly imprints you will notice they fly at higher weights" Thatís assuming you fly more than one and learn from your mistakes :)

BestBeagler
06-16-2012, 09:43 AM
That said, there is certainly nothing wrong with spending time with your imprint accipiter during the molt. And many of mine have spent the summer molting in my living room. But the labor intensiveness of their first season is a one time thing.

I molted out my first goshawk on a pole perch in my workshop and outside in the weathering area and occasionally inside. He was kept fat, but despite that, I worked with him throughout the molt and had a better mannered and tamer bird. The best he had ever been. No mantling, silent, and no fear, an ideal imprint. It was a lot of work but WELL worth it! Like Paul stated; I didn't really man him he was just within sight of me. When it came time to feed him I would put him on creance and he would fly over to the food when he saw it. The food was never placed in the same spot to avoid territoriality

Dirthawking
06-16-2012, 04:04 PM
I have always followed that a bird around people/noise in the house to be part of manning and this is more what I was asking about.

I like to keep certain birds inside during the start of the season just to relay the ground work from the previous season. But I have never raised an imprint so I was not sure if it was needed.

hcmcelroy
06-17-2012, 03:39 AM
Mario,

Interesting questions and quite well informed replies. I'll toss in my two cents.
As several said there is less need to maintain tameness with falcons because they generally retain their imprint-like behavior.
The accipiters and wild trapped HH tend to withdraw in the molt and I maintain partial tameness by calling them to the fist, weighing, and feeding to a given weight daily. It sounds time consuming but it only requires about 15 minutes per bird. Each hawk is quite different from the other so withdrawal differs but once accipiters are left alone for some time and withdrawal sets in seriously they may never return to the same personality profile. So maintainance training is important with the accipiters. And withdrawal differs from species to species with the Cooper's quite eager to withdraw if left alone in the mew.
The European sparrowhawk is an interesting example of withdrawal. They withdraw to the extent of breeding naturally and many imprinted spars are used in natural breeding in the UK each year.
Harry.

keitht
06-17-2012, 08:31 AM
Harry:
Very interesting note on the Sparrowhawks.

I've never let an accipiter withdraw completely. But I only spend a few minutes in my gos chamber a day now. He is only fed on days when he will come down to me for food. That is usually only once every other day.

sugezwolf
06-17-2012, 03:11 PM
Mario,

Interesting questions and quite well informed replies. I'll toss in my two cents.
As several said there is less need to maintain tameness with falcons because they generally retain their imprint-like behavior.
The accipiters and wild trapped HH tend to withdraw in the molt and I maintain partial tameness by calling them to the fist, weighing, and feeding to a given weight daily. It sounds time consuming but it only requires about 15 minutes per bird. Each hawk is quite different from the other so withdrawal differs but once accipiters are left alone for some time and withdrawal sets in seriously they may never return to the same personality profile. So maintainance training is important with the accipiters. And withdrawal differs from species to species with the Cooper's quite eager to withdraw if left alone in the mew.
The European sparrowhawk is an interesting example of withdrawal. They withdraw to the extent of breeding naturally and many imprinted spars are used in natural breeding in the UK each year.
Harry.


Very interesting as ever Harry.......have you had the pleasure of flying a spar or musket?

Gerry x

hcmcelroy
06-19-2012, 01:49 PM
Gerry,

It would be fun to try the spar on quail but I've never had one.. As you likely know that accipiter is quite a bit easier to handle than ours. They are by nature more gentle about like the bicolored hawk in S America. I've seen several bicolored flown by beginners in Lima, Peru.
That is another onbe I would like to try on quail.

Harry.

sugezwolf
06-23-2012, 05:20 PM
Gerry,

It would be fun to try the spar on quail but I've never had one.. As you likely know that accipiter is quite a bit easier to handle than ours. They are by nature more gentle about like the bicolored hawk in S America. I've seen several bicolored flown by beginners in Lima, Peru.
That is another onbe I would like to try on quail.

Harry.


Absolutely the spar as an imprint is a sweet-tempered hawk Harry - even the musket I flew was no trouble at all. It is a pity that you haven't had the pleasure of flying one but am I correct in thinking at least one falconer breeds them over there?

Gerry x

hcmcelroy
06-24-2012, 11:12 AM
Gerry,

Over the years I have heard of a breeder on this side of the pond now and again but I've never made the connection. So often I'm offered interesting hawks when my hands are full. This year I shed a tear when offered a special hawk but I stayed with my late passage male HH and male gos to see how they develop on quail.

Harry.

sugezwolf
06-25-2012, 06:29 AM
Gerry,

Over the years I have heard of a breeder on this side of the pond now and again but I've never made the connection. So often I'm offered interesting hawks when my hands are full. This year I shed a tear when offered a special hawk but I stayed with my late passage male HH and male gos to see how they develop on quail.

Harry.


Hi Harry - would that be Barry Ollette?

Gerry x

FredFogg
06-25-2012, 11:46 PM
Hi Harry - would that be Barry Ollette?

Gerry x

I believe Barry used to breed spars but isn't currently, I may be wrong, I usually am. LOL I know there is someone in NY breeding them. I would kill to fly one but even if you can find one, like aplo's, their price is way too high for my wallet. Maybe if I wrote a bunch of great books like Harry, someone would give one to me! LOL Nah, I doubt it! frus) :D

sugezwolf
06-26-2012, 01:14 AM
I believe Barry used to breed spars but isn't currently, I may be wrong, I usually am. LOL I know there is someone in NY breeding them. I would kill to fly one but even if you can find one, like aplo's, their price is way too high for my wallet. Maybe if I wrote a bunch of great books like Harry, someone would give one to me! LOL Nah, I doubt it! frus) :D

Thanks Fred.

Gerry x