Imprinting RT's?

[Lee Slikkers]

I was curious how many folks on this list have imprinted or worked with imprint RT’s? I know this is process that is pretty much nonexistent here in the US but it’s something I am interested in learning more about, heck its probably not only nonexistent but likely frowned upon but humor me with the question if possible.

Do you follow a similar recipe as with accipiter’s? How often is aggression an issue (if the imprinting is CORRECTLY done)? At what age have most folk’s preferred to take them for the imprinting process? Do any of you have info on how to identify the males from the females at this age?

Thanks all, should be some interesting dialogue on this one...

[jfneumann57]

What IS the official recipe for accipiters?

[wesleyc6]

What IS the official recipe for accipiters?


When someone says recipe, they mean the McDermott method.

[Saluqi]

I was curious how many folks on this list have imprinted or worked with imprint RT’s? I know this is process that is pretty much nonexistent here in the US but it’s something I am interested in learning more about, heck its probably not only nonexistent but likely frowned upon but humor me with the question if possible.

Do you follow a similar recipe as with accipiter’s? How often is aggression an issue (if the imprinting is CORRECTLY done)? At what age have most folk’s preferred to take them for the imprinting process? Do any of you have info on how to identify the males from the females at this age?

Thanks all, should be some interesting dialogue on this one...

Lee-

I borrowed a book from my sponsor which was a compilation of all of the NAFA journals from like '67 to '87 or something, anyway back in the "old days" imprinting RTs was a pretty common practice. I remember from those articles that there were quite a few success stories, and I think I recall some "how to" articles as well, might be worth looking into reading that book.

[Lee Slikkers]

Paul, it was a NAFA journal book? I have a bunch of individual issues (nothing tat old) but didn' know of any books....any more info would be great to know about.

[Saluqi]

Paul, it was a NAFA journal book? I have a bunch of individual issues (nothing tat old) but didn' know of any books....any more info would be great to know about.

Yup, it was a bound version of the first 20 years or 15 years, or something along those lines. Maybe Ev knows, he's the NAFA sales rep right? I'll check with my friend.

[Lee Slikkers]

huh, interesting info Paul...I'll check with Ev. thanks!

[chris kimble]

I used to have a pile of old HC's and journals that a friend gave me before I ever started hawking, I recall some stories of imprinted RTs in them. It seems funny that so many people frown at the mention of imprint redtails when Im sure the vast majority have never even seen one flown. I'll admit Im guilty of the "frown" myself and I hope someone here can offer some experienced opinions on the topic.

It seems we imprint just about everything else .....why not RT's?

[Falcon Boy]

I would imprint a RT in a heartbeat if i wanted to fly one again. I almost did it this season before i found out about rabbits with a falcon.

[chamokane]

Paul's right, People used to imprint a lot of RTs. Some of them were fine but some were so dangerous that they could not be flown. I remember hearing about a few that were so dangerous that their owners had them put down. There were some pretty nasty injuries to humans. I think you usually read about the good ones and only heard about the bad ones.

However, in those days, people were having the same kind of problems with imprint accipiters. I remember reading an account of a falconer being knocked cold by his imprint female Gos. He seemed to wright an article every time she injured him.

I haven't imprinted a RT, but I have one that I took about a week before fledging and she has been less dangerous than some passage birds. I like her well enough that I've kept her for 18 years.

Quite a few years ago, a woman falconer wanted to imprint a female RT. Neither she nor her husband could climb and they asked me to do the climbing. I got her a small downy and I'm not sure how she raised it but I know she knew about food imprinting and such. The bird eventually became so aggressive that she couldn't handle it. She passed it to another falconer who did well with it. The last I heard, he was still flying the bird with no problems. I caught a lot of flack from other falconers for helping her get that bird, but I figured it was up to her to decide how she wanted to practice falconry and she and her husband had both been falconers longer than I had.

That's about all I know, not much, but it seems that there is the potential for an imprint RT to turn out ok and the potential for disaster.

[Falcon Boy]

IMO there is potential disaster anytime you imprint anything.

[Ken S.]

If you log in to the NAFA members only section, they sell the book you're talking about. I'm glad I have it in my collection... a neat piece of history if you ask me. I think it would be great if they put together the next volume from 1971 to 2001 or something.

Here's the description posted on the NAFA site:


"The Journals Of the North American Falconers Association $60
This was a project done for the membership by the late Doug Grant. This is a reprint of all of the Journals from 1962-1971 in one volume."
----------------------------------

I don't want to stir the pot here, but with passage RT's being accessible, relatively quick to train, releaseable... and not to mention great game hawks... what advantage do you see in imprinting one?

[jfneumann57]

For use in breeding Ken

[Ken S.]

For breeding... I understand. The possibility of being able to create RT/HH hybrids, etc. It is interesting to think about what qualities that might produce.

Noah says, "I would imprint a RT in a heartbeat if i wanted to fly one again."

So that is what I was talking about... and my question is, "WHY?"

[chamokane]

IMO there is potential disaster anytime you imprint anything.

Yes, but the size and strength of a big female Red-tail's feet might make a person want to be a little more cautious with them than with something like a Coopers Hawk.

Most imprint falcons are pussy cats, unless you pull something stupid like walking into the nesting chamber of someone else's imprint female Peregrine. Even then, a few of them just love everyone. There are exceptions to almost everything you can say about hawks.

[goshawks00]

Great thread Lee<G>

Why???? because we can for starters .... how many horror stories have we heard about imprint coops ... goshawks... RTs? It gets ingrained into the falconry community and soon these types of questions arise. I think it's time ..once again.. that falconry come out of the 50s-60s-70s and apply the advances we now know about imprinting to create the kind of bird only an imprint can be.
I'd hazzard a guess that most bad imprints are the creation of bad imprinters, almost akin to there are bad guns... not bad gun owners. I even have entertained the thought a few times and seeing pics and stories from the likes of Ken hooke himself only kindles that deranged thinking the more. toungeout

.02

[SGC]

IMO there is no need to imprint a redtail as there is no need to imprint a harris. An imprinted redtail can not be released; if a person has one they no longer want, he must find someone that wants an imprinted redtail. I've had two imprinted redtails; the first was a huge female that was imprinted by someone else. She was very sweet with me and very dangerous toward anything else that moved wheather it had four legs or two legs. The second was a male I imprinted myself...he was very dangerous to anything including me. I had been hunting him for a while and he was a real good jack rabbit bird. One day he chased a jack, missed it, came back to me, landed on my fist, and immediately jumped in my face with both feet. My left eye swelled shut almost immediately and I felt a fluid running down my cheek...I thought it was the fluid from my eyeball and thought for sure I had lost my eye. But the fluid was just blood from my eye lid. Later, after getting to the house, I looked in the mirror and noticed that he had just missed my eyeball by a fraction of an inch...this was to close for me. He was my last imprinted redtail.

[chamokane]

I agree. Someone needs to volunteer to imprint a statistically significant number of Red-tails, using modern imprinting techniques, and fly them all for at least five years to see how they develop as they mature. At the same time, they need to trap, train, and fly the same number of passage birds, using best practices, for a control group. At the end of the test period they can report back to this forum their observations on the temperament and effectiveness of both groups. I think twenty imprints and twenty passage birds should be enough to make the test somewhat trustworthy.

[chamokane]

Hey Lee, you started this mess; it's not fair for you to just sit back and laugh. Tell us why you are thinking about imprinting a RT. Is it for breeding, or hunting, or were you just bored and trying to start trouble?

[everetkhorton]

Great thread Lee<G>

Why???? because we can for starters .... how many horror stories have we heard about imprint coops ... goshawks... RTs? It gets ingrained into the falconry community and soon these types of questions arise. I think it's time ..once again.. that falconry come out of the 50s-60s-70s and apply the advances we now know about imprinting to create the kind of bird only an imprint can be.
I'd hazzard a guess that most bad imprints are the creation of bad imprinters, almost akin to there are bad guns... not bad gun owners. I even have entertained the thought a few times and seeing pics and stories from the likes of Ken hooke himself only kindles that deranged thinking the more. toungeout

.02

Barry:
Then why can't we take eyes RT. in MI. It has been ten year, maybe
some thoughts have change.

[goshawks00]

SGC first off will you please sign your name on the posts so we know who you are , thanks.
Now then being that you seem to be a voice of experience, can you tell us more about the good in imprinted RTs . I am also curious as to how long ago you trained them , what methods you used, and I suppose the burning question is what did you do with the two imprints you owned.
Barry

[goshawks00]

Dave I may do one... just for science sake... being that I had a guy once tell me there was no such a thing as a good imprint gos, I'd like to see if that holds true with RTs... How about you doing one also?
Barry

[goshawks00]

Ev, we can take them, there isn't anything about not being able to.... Then again after this year we may not be able to take any raptors in Michigan.
Barry

[goshawks00]

Oh I'm sorry Ev... I thought you said eyas but upon closer examination you want to take RT eyes. I think you still can take RT eyes but you must take the rest of the bird also.
Barry

[Lunaries]

Hmm. I'd offer to now, but if I tried they'd come and take my pretty bird and probably chuck me in jail. thumbsupp Plus, I'd probably end up in the "bad" category. toungeout Oh well. I wish any who try the best of luck -- I'd really like to see what the findings are!

[chris kimble]

Oh I'm sorry Ev... I thought you said eyas but upon closer examination you want to take RT eyes. I think you still can take RT eyes but you must take the rest of the bird also.
Barry

Same is true in Oklahoma, doesnt matter if you only want the beak or just a feather.....you gotta take the whole package!:D

[everetkhorton]

Oh I'm sorry Ev... I thought you said eyas but upon closer examination you want to take RT eyes. I think you still can take RT eyes but you must take the rest of the bird also.
Barry

Barry:
Darn, I heard they were good fish bait. :D

[chamokane]

There is a bird I forgot all about. Sorry, it was a long time ago. Someone, I don't know who, imprinted a male RT, flew him for a few years with good success, and then released him. The game department had another falconer trap him when he set up shop around an apartment complex and the tenants reported that he was "preying upon house cats and other domestic critters" and they were going to shoot him. They talked me into taking him. He was a little wild at first, but settled down quickly and I found him to be a fairly normal Red-tail. Other than being a little footy, he didn't seem dangerous. Where the bird had been out in the wild for a while, he may not be a good example. He did always bate toward my wife's cat.

[everetkhorton]

Dave I may do one... just for science sake... being that I had a guy once tell me there was no such a thing as a good imprint gos, I'd like to see if that holds true with RTs... How about you doing one also?
Barry

Barry:
I think it would be great if you did, you have imprinted several bird and have the know how and a wife that will put up with a bird in the house.
Will every thing fall in to place to have it happen this year with our time running out?

[goshawks00]

No No Ev those are cat eyes, and not good for fishing but for playin marbles. crazyy
Barry

[Falcon Boy]

Dave and Ken- Why imprint a female goshawk? Are they not as big as a female redtail? Why imprint an eagle? Female finnish goshawks can get just as big as a female redtail, yet people have no problem imprinting them. Yes i know, apples to oranges, they are two completely different beasts. But the size is still the same. Some of the best eagles ever flown were imprints. Same goes for goshawks.

So why imprint a redtail? Imagine having a redtail that is absolutely fearless, will attack any quarry and is fine around any dog or cat. I'd imagine they would chase anything you introduce to them, and i bet they could be soared with as much reliability as an imprint falcon. They can be made to any quarry you want, pheasants, geese, jacks, what ever you want, they will fear nothing until given a reason to.

As with everything imprint, i am still of the opinion is all in how you raise them. Sure someone may have imprinted a redtail. Maybe it came out a monster. How do you know that they know how to imprint a bird? Bad imprints occur in every species because people have no idea what they are doing. The bird is flawless out of the egg, unless it has a genetic defect. If you imprint a bird and it shows aggression or something of the sort, it is because you taught it that, whether you meant to or not. It was not born with the instinct to attack humans. I am of the opinion [however inexperienced it may be] that any bird as an imprint that was WELL IMPRINTED can be a good gamehawk.

[FredFogg]

My thoughts on imprinting are you have to ask yourself what advantage will I get if I imprint this type of bird. I think it has been proven that imprinting a buteo doesn't gain anyone an advantage, so why do it. I know everyone likes to try new things, but if the results are no better than just training a passage or parent raised bird, not much reason to do it, especially with the chance that the bird might end up a face grabbing maniac. Imprinting falcons and accipiters have been proven to give a falconer a different type of bird that a passage or parent raised bird. Someone stated that for breeding purposes, and I would think that would be the only reason to imprint a red-tail. And then, I would say only if you are going to be trying to produce hybrids, not pure red-tails. Do we really need more red-tails hatched in captivity here in the States? Maybe in the UK, but not here. Just my humble opinion!

[FredFogg]

Dave So why imprint a redtail? Imagine having a redtail that is absolutely fearless, will attack any quarry and is fine around any dog or cat. I'd imagine they would chase anything you introduce to them, and i bet they could be soared with as much reliability as an imprint falcon. They can be made to any quarry you want, pheasants, geese, jacks, what ever you want, they will fear nothing until given a reason to.



Noah, you can get the exact same bird as described above with a passage red-tail, if trained right. Why don't you imprint a red-tail and keep it for 5 years and let us know how it turns out! LOL

[Falcon Boy]

Because i have no desire to fly a redtail, nor do i want to have a redtail for years upon years.

[Bodarc]

I don't know about an imprint RT but I know from threads on another forum from Leonardo, a Mexican falconer that about 50 percent of all the Harris Hawks at Mexican meets are imprinted HH which is also a no-no up here as I understand it.

He did make the comment while writing about the methods used for imprinting HH that he could understand someone not imprinting RTs because of the aggression problems with them so I assume they have tried it and haven't had as much luck with RTs as they have HHs.

I wish I knew how to contact some of the Mexican falconers because I think they might have a good bit of information about imprinting both of them.

[goshawks00]

Imprinting for making hybreds is the reason Lee started this thread , but it does go beyond this and I for one have the same sentiments as Noah on this.
Barry

[Zarafia]

I think that if you trap a young enough redtail and spend enough time with her you can end up with a bird that very much resembles an imprint, screaming, soliciting and all. My first redtail was like that. I trapped her while she was still following her dad around screaming at him. Within three weeks she was screaming at me. I also know someone who has produced young from a passage frt by way of voluntary AI. He gave her rt semen but theres no reason it couldnt have been harris or eagle or whatever.

[goshawks00]

Actually there is a reason why you can'tt do just anything as you projected... We are not allowed to breed eagles in the US.:eek:
Barry

[Zarafia]

Jeeze you are just picking on me now. Who says it couldn't be tawney eagle or something. I talked to a guy selling one in California a few years back.

[goshawks00]

ah you got me there Meredith I was only thinking indigenous.
Barry

[Zarafia]

Yeah well I don't suppose there are a whole lot of non-native eagle semen donors out there. Honestly I was thinking glodies. I just hate being wrong:D.

[goshawks00]

There aren't many of them either, and yes in theory you are right about any semen will do though some won't ( maybe most --we don't know) be compatable
Barry

[Zarafia]

Frankly I'm a little suprised at some of the hybrids that do work. For example I wouldnt have thought a gyr x merlin was possible but I have heard of them.

[chris kimble]

Do we really need more red-tails hatched in captivity here in the States?

Who's producing redtails here in the states? And why is that a problem?

[goshawks00]

how about harris/Rt
HH/coop
RT/gos
sharpie/spar

It does seem the falcons are easier to hybridize (sp) than the shortwings but that may be because the shortwings haven't been given enough attention because most are readily available.
Barry

[Zarafia]

I read somewhere that attempts had been made to hybridize coopers with NAgos and it failed more than once. The same for sharpies and coopers. The point of what I was reading was to point out that geneticly coopers were not compatable with sharpie or NA gosses. However nothing was said about sharpie x gos.
Personally I think God did really good with our accipiters. We've got small, medium and large.

[chamokane]

I wonder if imprint Red-tails are common in England where they can't get passage birds. If so, what methods do they use and how do the birds turn out? If not, why not?

[Zarafia]

I think that many of the redtails bred in Europe are parent raised. I think most folks over there like their harrises the same way. Tradition has always favored the passage or parend reared bird over the imprint, and I think they figure since redtails and harrises are so easy to train why risk the aggression?

[chamokane]

Oh, to answer your question Barry, It would be interesting to see how a RT turned out with proper imprinting, but I don't want another RT. I mostly fly falcons and I just keep a RT to avoid becoming one of those snooty longwingers I keep hearing about.

[everetkhorton]

It has been fun watching the difference of opinion on imprint and breeding. Sorry I am not in favor of hybrid. I have no problem with breeding of the same species. But hell, I like passage RT. They suit me fine. So go ahead and beat yourselve up while I watch.frusbrickk

[chamokane]

Here's another question. Do you think that all birds are a completely blank slate at hatching and can, therefore, be molded any way you want; or do you think that genetic variation would predispose one individual toward a certain behavior more than another?

[FredFogg]

Who's producing redtails here in the states? And why is that a problem?

I only know of a few breeders of red-tails here in the U.S. and if you think about it, it is because there isn't a demand for captive bred red-tails. And that, in itself is the problem? When you can get them out of the wild, why breed them. Sure, you can get a gos, harris, gyr, etc. out of the wild, but for most folks, you have to travel a good distance to trap one, thus the breeding and purchasing. But I don't think there are many states that doesn't have red-tails that can't be trapped. Supply and demand!

[chamokane]

It has been fun watching the difference of opinion on imprint and breeding. Sorry I am not in favor of hybrid. I have no problem with breeding of the same species. But hell, I like passage RT. They suit me fine. So go ahead and beat yourselve up while I watch.frusbrickk

Ev, what's wrong with hybrids? Just curious.

[everetkhorton]

Ev, what's wrong with hybrids? Just curious.

Dave:
Nothing with the birds themselves, I can say one way or another. I guess it is just that we have to manipulate everything to suit ourselves. The bird in there natural state will catch game. Money can be made breeding natural birds. Just flying a bird is not good enough. We are taking about imprinting a bird so it will take anything out there, will a Jack kick the hell out of a RT and brakes its wing. Then they say, you are always taking a risk every time you put your bird in the air. I guess it is a very narrow view, but I am not one that has anything to prove to anyone. Thats my .02 worth.

[chamokane]

Thanks, Ev.

[goshawks00]

Ev , yes I think you're view is in fact self serving....but you have to come to grips with the very thing you say....which was "'we have to manipulate everything to suit ourselves"".
Do you think your hawk would hunt with you if it wasn't mnaipulated to do so? So you are guilty of the very thing that you are against... yea maybe to a lesser extreme but none the less the same...
Glass houses /stones?confusedd

Barry

[Jimmy]

I only know of a few breeders of red-tails here in the U.S. and if you think about it, it is because there isn't a demand for captive bred red-tails.

There is someone breeding redtails in every region of the US except our region. (South East) And there is a bigger demand than you might think, Fred. Just not from falconers.

[FredFogg]

There is someone breeding redtails in every region of the US except our region. (South East) And there is a bigger demand than you might think, Fred. Just not from falconers.

Jimmy, as I said, I only know of two breeders, and I figured there were more. And as you stated, the demand is not from falconers. Which I don't quite understand? I know one breeder in VA that supplies Jack Hannah with red-tails. But with so many injured juvie red-tails coming into rehab and then turned loose just fine after being rehabbed, why wouldn't someone get one of those for display rather than buy one! Maybe someone could answer that one, as I don't have a clue, but then, I don't have a clue on most things! LOL The only thing I can guess is the regs won't allow it.

[Jimmy]

Most falconers prefer the passage. Most animal related shows, zoos, etc, don't have the same options as falconers. Most are only able to obtain injured or non flighted birds that are unreleasable, due to certain regs. A fully flighted captive redtail is worth a few bucks to them. And probably more bucks than you think.

[sakerjack]

First Ev, Dennis called me last night,, Thank you for your donation..
Imprint RT's, first I am not an expert on imprints, I have raised 3 RT, a coop, gos, saker and merlin, this was before The recipe was ever published..
Here is my 4 cents.. Most view the RT as a beginner bird, a stepping stone to something better, different etc.. You Rt guys know what a good one can do so we do not need to go into discussion on that..It is because that reason that an eyass RT in my mind has gotten a bad rap..Years ago young beginners took a rt out of the nest and raised it ,, they made every mistake you could make and most had a nightmare on their hands,,BUT if they took a gos or coop and raised it the same way GUESS what the same nightmare,, cept not many did in those days. My guess, only experienced falconers took those accipiters on so the chance of having a Fu** UP was reduced,,theree was much written about raising an eyass Gos than an eyass RT ..There was an AWARENESS on raising Accipts,
Lets say the RT was not viewed a beginer bird and was a rarity or a bird that had their nest in very secluded forests, or cliffs and they were just damn near impossible to find for a beginner. But the likes of Mcdermott, took a fancy to these hard to obtain RT and did years of research on how to raise a non aggressive , very stable, hunting machine which we know they can be.. A book was written,,Now a falconer has a Recipe to avoid all these bad traits of an eyass RT,, Now breeders started to breed these much like what happened to the harris, gos etc ,, more education about breeding raising eyasses etc would come out and in my opinion hundreds of stable non aggressive RT would be on the gloves of falconers,, Over time another book is written about PROBLEMS-WITH-THE-RED-TAIL -EYASS,, we could now go back and correct some of the errors and now and even better more stable hunting machine is on the gloves of falconers..
I cannot see the difference .. if you took an eyass RT and raised it the PROPER WAY "The Recipe" if you wish,, like so many do now raising extrememly stable gos hawks, coops or eagles in Europe and in the US and CAanada that you would not have the same end product.. A very well manned stable bird that shows little aggression etc..
Not sure but in my opinion is there a real difference in a poorly raised and aggressive gos than a redtail?? Maybe size but a big quick Finnish gos poorly trained hanging on your face could likely do the same a as RT..

[goshawks00]

Thanks Ken you were reading between my lines!!
Barry

[sakerjack]

Yupper, and agree 100%,,

[Lee Slikkers]

1st of all.....WOW, I really didn't expect this much input or controversy with this subject but I can't say I am disappointed. There are a ton of great points and opinions being shared here and I lov the open, nonabusive dialogue.

Here is the background for my initial question, I probably should have included it originally but I didn't want it to cloud any of the opinions or replies on the topic.

I have a propagation permit as some of you know. I am very heavily considering the idea of a hh x rt hybrid. That would be my base reason for imprinting a RT, however, as Ken so kindly pointed out, I really don’t feel the imprint RT has been given a fair shake.

Now I certainly can’t and won’t claim to be the one to change that stigma but I am interested enough in the project and idea to be giving it some really serious consideration as I approach spring and the eyas take season.

I’ll respond more later, have to run for the moment but I didn’t want folks thinking I simply stirred this pot to abandon it…I have a very genuine interest in the knowledge being shared here.

[SGC]

SGC first off will you please sign your name on the posts so we know who you are , thanks.
Now then being that you seem to be a voice of experience, can you tell us more about the good in imprinted RTs . I am also curious as to how long ago you trained them , what methods you used, and I suppose the burning question is what did you do with the two imprints you owned.
Barry

Hi Barry, My name is Steve and believe me I am not an authority on imprinting redtails. As for my first imprinted redtail (the female), I have no idea who or how she was imprinted, but she was very tame. My mentor found her wondering around in a pasture near Ft Worth, Tx about 1969, one wing had been clipped so she couldn't fly...I suspect she was someone's "pet". He caught her and brought her to me and since it was near the end of the hawking season we put her in a mew and let her moult. The following season we entered her by dragging a dead jackrabbit for her and once she learned the tricks of the trade, she was one fine rabbit hawk. She became very possessive of her "new territory", i.e her mews and the area around it. She would not allow anything or anyone else in her territory except she and I...she would attack anyone or anything that came into her territory...humans and animals. She eventually became this same way in the field as well; so I hunted her alone. I eventually lost her after about five years.

As for the male, I imprinted him myself. I took him out of his nest about ten years after the above female when he was approximately four weeks old...wanted to be sure he was old enough to tear his own meat. All I can say about the imprinting method I used is there was alot of association with humans and no hand feeding; I didn't want him knowing where the food was coming from to avoid aggression. For the most part he was a nice bird, he just became unpredictable. Two days after he jumped in my face, I thought I would try him again. I took him out of the mews and made damn sure I was holding onto his jesses. He was sitting on my fist just as calm and sweet as he could be then all of sudden, in a split second, he tried to jump in my face again. He didn't bate away from me as though he wanted to go to a higher perch for example, he bated toward my face. I had a friend that loved redtails and he said he would give this one a try...the bird was fine with him, he was a good rabbit hawk, but eventually hit a fence and broke a wing and was put in a zoo.

I have had many early trapped passage redtails and never had a problem with aggression. They became very tame, almost to the point of the tameness of an imprint and most of them would follow just like a harris. I don't know much about captive breeding, so I don't know how a passage redtail would work out for this purpose. But as far as I'm concererned, for hunting, a passage redtail...and harris for that matter, will beat a captive bred bird hands down because they learn to hunt from their parents then they have to be successful at hunting to survive...this is just my opinion though.

Steve

[Jimmy]

There may be safer ways to make that hybrid, and avoid the whole imprint process. Chamber raise one of each together, and let them imprint on each other. That's how I plan to do it, most likely.

[goshawks00]

Interesting Steve, the first bird obviously was not a properly reared imprint, taking into how you came about here, btw 1969 is a very good weight for a RT esp. one from around Ft. Worth.;) The second RT also wasn't an imprint if taken at 4 weeks... at some point I could see it as him seeing you as a rival sibling , maybe... but not as a parent. So to use those two examples as to why imprints are no good ..bad ..etc ... is a stretch, in my opinion.
Also to say a passage bird is better than an imprint tells me you haven't seen many imprints or should I say good ones and what they are capable of. I mean let's fact it, at best they have learned to fly chase game... any available game, and been able to survive...for about 2-3 months in warm weather. The same thing can be done with an imprint , in about the same time frame, and much more..

Eample show me a passage bird that isn't afraid of the first dog that walks up on her, or one that will sit on your fist from the get go....

Different yea maybe , better... hardly.
.02
Barry

[wesleyc6]

Yeah, I can't abide by the "passage" is better either. I bet you any well flown imprint will kill MUCH more than a passage of the same age. The way I know this is to hear of people feeding their breeding stock off of a young bird. My mHH fed 4 other HH's during the season and did it easily.

Now if you want to make a strong argument for passage birds, it could be that most don't ever have the same baggage as imprints or CB birds could. That argument would be much closer to legit IMHO. I have only ever flown one passage HH, but he was never even close in temprament to what I produce now. He was a fine gamehawk, but not any better than the progeny that leaves my chamber. As a caveat though, I will say I have seen plenty of people with screwed up passage RT's. They won't hunt, won't follow, won't transfer, won't hit this animal, won't hit that animal, won't hunt with a crowd.

It depends where your skills lie. I would love to be a good imprinter. My last two imprint falcons were sweethearts. I lost one in a thermal and sold the other one. If all my imprints turned out like them, I would probably never fly another passage bird. I hope I don't mess up my gos this summer. :eek:

[Chris L.]

I have to Agree with Barry and Ken.. Why not imprint one.We now have a plethora of information on how to imprint and I think the old notions are just that.. old.

[Lee Slikkers]

There may be safer ways to make that hybrid, and avoid the whole imprint process. Chamber raise one of each together, and let them imprint on each other. That's how I plan to do it, most likely.

Jimmy, that is probably the safest and least dangerous approach to the hh x rt project. I honestly hadn’t considered it…I’ve (possibly) got a breeding age male coming in to me and if I could find a breeder female HH I’d probably try that approach yet this year. I’ll have to see what I can find or dig up for female breeders.

Either way, with your libido enhanced HH project I’m sure you’ll be MILES ahead of me on the back end, grin.

[Saluqi]

I have to Agree with Barry and Ken.. Why not imprint one.We now have a plethora of information on how to imprint and I think the old notions are just that.. old.

I'll play devils advocate: Why not imprint a RT? I'll let my gos bias, I mean snobbery, show through here. Even with all thats been learned in regards to imprinting there is probably still at least a 50% failure rate with accips. So after you've spent an entire summer hand raising your imprint RT, you could still end up with an aggressive unmanageable bird that still isn't any faster than a passage RT or more responsive (has your RT ever sat on a pole while you jumped around on the ground trying to get it come down?). At least with an accip you'll have a fast and responsive face grabber!!!

Sorry couldn't resist.

[Chris L.]

Paul,
No problem I like to debate these kind of topics ;),
Is the 50 percent you are speaking of due to other falconers lack of attention to detail, or their lack of vigor or were they just plain lazy and messed up? Who knows, but I don't think their failures should dictate the future of falconry.

When I imprint a rt I will be able to give my true feelings on it, I think many may be able to comment once they have truley done it... I guess that is if they see a purpose to doing it.


I'll play devils advocate: Why not imprint a RT? I'll let my gos bias, I mean snobbery, show through here. Even with all thats been learned in regards to imprinting there is probably still at least a 50% failure rate with accips. So after you've spent an entire summer hand raising your imprint RT, you could still end up with an aggressive unmanageable bird that still isn't any faster than a passage RT or more responsive (has your RT ever sat on a pole while you jumped around on the ground trying to get it come down?). At least with an accip you'll have a fast and responsive face grabber!!!

Sorry couldn't resist.

[Saluqi]

Paul,
No problem I like to debate these kind of topics ;),
Is the 50 percent you are speaking of due to other falconers lack of attention to detail, or there lack of vigor or were they just plain lazy and messed up? Who knows, but I don't think their failures should dictate the future of falconry.

When I imprint a rt I will be able to give my true feelings on it, I think many may be able to comment once they have truley done it... I guess that is if they see a purpose to doing it.

Chris,

I should have qualified that 50% with "I'd bet that 50% are failures", I don't have any hard numbers. As for the reasons of messing up imprints I think everything you said was right on target. I don't think most falconers spend enough time really assessing the committment that an imprint requires. They mess up the house, they mean no vacation that summer, they need oodles of baggies (if you do the McD recipe), they require the hawking season to begin in July - there are just so many factors that need to be considered before diving head long into imprinting any bird.

I aggree 100%, other's failures shouldn't dictate the future of falconry, unless your imprint attacks others, which is the reason, as far as I can tell, that the old stigmas of imprint RTs still stand today. In todays world where whole communities have outlawed pitbulls because of bad owners, it would be a tough sell if you had an imprint RT that attacked a kid to convinvce that same community that only imprint redtails are dangerous.

[SGC]

You're right Barry, I haven't seen many imprints...in fact, I could probably count them on one hand. I hear/read about them all the time though. And the point about me being a sibling rivalry is an excellent point; I don't think I ever looked at it that way which shows how much I know about imprints. And Wes, I've been keeping up with your posts about Daniel...very impressive bird and from everything I've read about him, don't be surprized if I contact you for one...I love male harriss (sp). Right now I have a passage male I trapped about the second week of Oct. He's a good bird, but I guess we were in a down cycle in the rabbit population here because I was lucky to see one rabbit (CTs) in two hours. Last year, I'd see ten or fifteen in an hour and a half.

[chamokane]

I'll play devils advocate: Why not imprint a RT? I'll let my gos bias, I mean snobbery, show through here. Even with all thats been learned in regards to imprinting there is probably still at least a 50% failure rate with accips. So after you've spent an entire summer hand raising your imprint RT, you could still end up with an aggressive unmanageable bird that still isn't any faster than a passage RT or more responsive (has your RT ever sat on a pole while you jumped around on the ground trying to get it come down?). At least with an accip you'll have a fast and responsive face grabber!!!

Sorry couldn't resist.

Now that's funny.:D

I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't care if someone imprints a RT, or a Wolverine, for that matter, as long as they don't let their misprint hurt anyone but themselves or release even a good imprint where it will cause a problem with the public and reflect poorly on falconry like the male that I got from the game department did. RTs live a long time and they don't seem to go wild as quickly as some other species do.

I don't have a well constructed theory based on opinion and logic to champion, I'm more of a "what you see is what you get" kind of person; I think they call that empirical knowledge. I'm a little slow to generalize and make assumptions. Here are a few things that I have seen.

My RT is not a hard imprint, but I did get her out of a nest so she had not had any hunting experience, good or bad. I didn't bag her, other than a couple of young chicks, or train her in any way, I just took a guess about weight and took her hunting. She caught a rabbit on the first hunt, then caught another the next day. After that, it was hit or miss. I didn't have a dog. I think she did as well as some passage birds would have done. When I did start hunting her with dogs, I had a little trouble with her wanting to catch the dogs, but she hadn't been conditioned to them. It didn't take her long to figure out that they were useful. She formed an interesting relationship with the dog that she hunted with for about 15 years.

As far as being willing to chase fast or large game, I didn't see much difference between her and a passage bird. She made a couple of feeble attempts at ducks and gave that up. Now that she thermals and waits on well, she won't stoop at a duck, but she will catch a pheasant. I could probably bag her on ducks and get some nice duck flights but I give the duck flights to my falcons. I don't get much sun during hunting season.

The first time I flushed Jacks for her, she totally ignored them. The second day, she followed them cautiously but wouldn't try to catch them. The third day, she made a couple of good attempts to catch Jacks, but ended up catching a pheasant and we had other things we had to do. Jacks are protected here now and I haven't had a chance to follow up on that beginning. I know of passage RTs that have chased Jacks hard on day one and others that were reluctant so I think it's a wash there too.

My bird doesn't seem to be any more aggressive than the average passage bird except in the spring. I can't let her fly loose around my place in the spring because she becomes territorial and she even hit me in the head once when I walked out the front door while she was out. When she's incubating eggs, I can push her around and reach under her to count the eggs, but if anyone else looks in at her, she will come off the nest with murder on her mind. She doesn't court me, but she gets all fired up and starts calling when she sees a wild male RT.

Given a little time, passage RTs can become dog tame and some of them can be aggressive also. They seem to learn that dogs are useful about as quickly as my eyas did, but with passage birds, it's caution rather than aggression. In any case, it usually doesn't take long once they see the dog flush game.

I guess if you can raise a gentle eyas RT, I don't really see much advantage to either the eyas or the passage bird as far as hunting goes. I'm just talking RTs here.

I would guess that different falconers with different birds might have experiences somewhat different than my own.

Sorry about the length of the post but I didn't know how to get my experiences across with fewer words.

[everetkhorton]

Ev , yes I think you're view is in fact self serving....but you have to come to grips with the very thing you say....which was "'we have to manipulate everything to suit ourselves"".
Do you think your hawk would hunt with you if it wasn't mnaipulated to do so? So you are guilty of the very thing that you are against... yea maybe to a lesser extreme but none the less the same...
Glass houses /stones?confusedd

Barry

Barry:
That is a good point of view. I am not hear to debate anything. I do not have to come to grips with anything. I am going to leave it at that.

[wesleyc6]

You're right Barry, I haven't seen many imprints...in fact, I could probably count them on one hand. I hear/read about them all the time though. And the point about me being a sibling rivalry is an excellent point; I don't think I ever looked at it that way which shows how much I know about imprints. And Wes, I've been keeping up with your posts about Daniel...very impressive bird and from everything I've read about him, don't be surprized if I contact you for one...I love male harriss (sp). Right now I have a passage male I trapped about the second week of Oct. He's a good bird, but I guess we were in a down cycle in the rabbit population here because I was lucky to see one rabbit (CTs) in two hours. Last year, I'd see ten or fifteen in an hour and a half.


Thanks SGC. He was a good bird this year.

I love these discussions. So many viewpoints to consider and look at!:D

[everetkhorton]

Paul,
No problem I like to debate these kind of topics ;),
Is the 50 percent you are speaking of due to other falconers lack of attention to detail, or their lack of vigor or were they just plain lazy and messed up? Who knows, but I don't think their failures should dictate the future of falconry.

When I imprint a rt I will be able to give my true feelings on it, I think many may be able to comment once they have truley done it... I guess that is if they see a purpose to doing it.

Chris:
It is a given if a imprint does not turn out right you did not do something right, that is a easy out.

[goshawks00]

Good input Dave... based on a sample of one. I am sure what you observed is typical... and also I believe we could find a sample of one to corralate each point you made from both the imprint and passage side. Not sure how to interpet what you wrote as your bird seems to display both sides of the coin... I suppose from the long exposure to you, which sounds more like habituation than imprint.... but who knows.

I am also glad you allow others to do as they please as long as they don't ... in your cup...! Of course there are a plenty of examples of things passages do that don't normally reflect the attributes we long have promoted. Hate to see them all ban because of that also.
.02
Barry

[chamokane]

Barry, I don't think a sample of one proves anything except that that one bird behaved as she did in her environment. Like I said before, I think it would take at least twenty individuals, all raised the same way and flown the same way, to get a statistically significant idea of the range of behavior that could be expected. Since that will never happen, all we will ever have are anecdotes and opinions. I use the number 20 because it's the number of samples we found we had to have for any meaningful statistical process control in a manufacturing process. After watching living things all my life, I think that individual critters can vary at least as much as parts coming off of a computer operated machine.

My bird is not an imprint, but she is an eyas, and my only point about her ability is that she seems to fit well within the range of the ability of passage Red-tails that I have known. I think she's a pretty average bird.

I can't imagine myself advocating the banning of any falconry practice. There are more than enough jerks out there telling us what we can or can't do now, thank you.:D However, if I have seen something turn out to be dangerous, I certainly don't feel guilty about voicing a word of caution. It doesn't mean I'm taking one side or another, it just means that I think caution is indicated. I hope that makes sense.

I hope we never all start doing things exactly the same way. There would be no basis for conversation. We would all just sit and nod wisely and be very bored.:D

Dang, I've written another book, sorry.

[goshawks00]

Dave as you said ... "I hope we never start doing exactly the same", so then why advocate that a sample of twenty be done? BTW a sample of twenty in many instances is a very low quanity to be basing fact on, as repeatability is not always manifested in such a small number. Then again smaller samples could be enough to base opinion if not fact on....it all depends. You know very well that is and would be impossible to do, as no two imprinters will ever do everything the same.

I also never said your RT was an imprint , just that it exhibited the signs of one yet also maintained some passage characteristics. Some things you stated are close to imprint behavior and also may be construed as habituated characteristics... such as attacking within a given 'owned' territory... Do wild passage /harrard RTs routinely attack peiople when in their territories? What then causes that attitude?

As far as advocating what should be done, I think you have stated your opinion on that.

[FredFogg]

I have an idea! All of you that think imprinting a red-tail is something worth trying, give it a go this spring/summer and at the end of next season, we can start a thread and see how it turned out for all of you! I for one, think that if someone can imprint an eagle and it turns out to be a great hunting partner and a great falconry bird, can surely imprint a red-tail. I didn't do a good enough job with the coops I half imprinted, so I don't feel ready to try something like a red-tail. But I would love to see more folks try it.

[everetkhorton]

Fred:
Why not half of the study group imprint marsh hawks. No one is playing around with them. They will not have to climb a tree to get one. Maybe the breeder could cross the tow RT/NH. I forgot they call them northern harriers now. See give anything enough time and they will change it some way. :D

[chamokane]

Barry, Yes, I agree that it would be pretty much impossible to do a test big enough to discover the the whole range of possible outcomes and also that a test of a few birds might give some idea. Like the guy said, there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.:D I think it might always be possible to find a bird that would operate outside our previous experience.

As far as the behavior of my RT, I've seen other birds behave out of class, so to speak. I had a passage Prairie, trapped in October, that eventually courted me and laid eggs. If I patted her on the back, she would bow and chup and raise her tail and I think I could have inseminated her with no trouble. She also liked me to cover her eggs with my hand while she took her lunch break. I've heard of other passage Prairies behaving the same way. I had another passage Prairie that left her first kill and attacked me like a nasty imprint, then went back and mantled over her kill. She was not particularly tame at the time. I've also had breeders tell me about supposed hard imprints that bred naturally with other birds. Maybe the line between imprint and non imprint isn't as well defined as we suppose it to be.

I haven't heard of wild RTs attacking people around the nest but I've seen them attack coyotes and badgers and drive them off, not just from the nest area, but from hunting grounds, and I have seen them scream at, and threaten, people many times. I think that they would like to drive people away if they dared to. I agree with you that habituation and lack of fear probably allowed my bird to feel bold enough to drive people away. I think we've all heard of wild Goshawks attacking people around the nest. I remember one really whacking me in the head.

I try not to form very strong opinions about the things that I see individual birds do. About the time I think I have a theory, a bird will pull something to make me realize I don't really know what I'm talking about. They are, after all, living creatures with some sort of a brain.

I guess I'm a little confused about what I might have said that made you think I was advocating one thing or another. All I remember saying was that I thought we should do a test that was obviously to big to be practical.

[chris kimble]

Ev, I've been trying to catch a marsh hawk for years. Just dont have the talent I guess. But I have seen them turn the heat on when chasing birds and I know they have a turbo button! They may not fit the traditional mold of falconry, but I'd love to try one......not tryin to change the subject thoughsorryy

[Lee Slikkers]

I didn't think marsh hawks were a legal falconry bird? I've also seen them really put the moves on small birds and can't help but wonder how a nice male would do on small birds...

[chris kimble]

They are legal here in oklahoma, I've heard of people catching them with traps like the swedish goshawk traps, and I've had some act like they wanted my b.c's before! but Ive never actually gotten one in hand. One day though.

[Lee Slikkers]

Learn something new everyday...huh...

[qdgban]

as i said eleswhere lee another reason for imprinting occurred over here last year when a youngster was rejected by the parents and the owner let the bird die before he'd imprint it , im sure you understand my feelings about that oneconfusedd
id take a pretty good bet that if its done correctly and the transition /aggression phase is dealt with logically there should be no reason why it shouldnt be a success,naysayers change nothing good luck

interesting to see how helpful and proactive you guys are compared to our side where its just snipingcrazyy

[awahl]

I think that we all base our opinions on our own experiences. Some of those experiences beng what we have seen, some being what we have heard. And those that have been heard are influenced by the pople that we hear them from. I have heard many times that imprint red tails are aggressive, although I am pretty sure I have never seen one fly. Not much good data to base an opinion on. On the other hand, my first red tail, a passage, in her third year bound on to my face after trading her off a rabbit. I wouldn't want to take a chance on that happening again. Two black eyes, a gushing bloody nose and cuts from where my hair used to be, to under my chin. The interesting point is that I would not hesitate to take another passage. I would however, not try to imprint a red tail. How does that make sense? I have had some pretty successful imprints albeit falcons.

I think that an imprint red tail could turn out very well using modern imprinting practices. No question. But due to individual variation, I would assume that there is a chance that the bird would end up overly aggressive in some way, but the same is obviously the case for a passage. If I were in a position like Lee, and I was trying to accomplish something specific, why not go for it? If I were going for a gamehawk, I would trap a passage.

Great thread Lee. Very interesting.

[Lee Slikkers]

Great thread Lee. Very interesting.

All I did was pose the question (under gentle proding from another forum member) and all the kudos go to those who have contributed and kept this discussion very civil...I appreciate it everyone!

[hawkstir]

Every time I read this thread I think this is something I'd like to try. But I can't think of anyone I dislike enough to pass a malimprint along to when I totally screw the bird up. I'm sure somebody out there could do a fine job with a project like this. Myself, I'll stick to passage birds.

[chamokane]

I think that we all base our opinions on our own experiences. Some of those experiences beng what we have seen, some being what we have heard. And those that have been heard are influenced by the pople that we hear them from. I have heard many times that imprint red tails are aggressive, although I am pretty sure I have never seen one fly. Not much good data to base an opinion on. On the other hand, my first red tail, a passage, in her third year bound on to my face after trading her off a rabbit. I wouldn't want to take a chance on that happening again. Two black eyes, a gushing bloody nose and cuts from where my hair used to be, to under my chin. The interesting point is that I would not hesitate to take another passage. I would however, not try to imprint a red tail. How does that make sense? I have had some pretty successful imprints albeit falcons.

I think that an imprint red tail could turn out very well using modern imprinting practices. No question. But due to individual variation, I would assume that there is a chance that the bird would end up overly aggressive in some way, but the same is obviously the case for a passage. If I were in a position like Lee, and I was trying to accomplish something specific, why not go for it? If I were going for a gamehawk, I would trap a passage.

Great thread Lee. Very interesting.

Good post, Andy. I like your comments on opinions. The only thing I would add is that, sometimes, we also let our wishes and desires color our opinions.

I agree with you that if anyone has a well thought out breeding or falconry reason to imprint a Red-tail, there's no reason they shouldn't do it. Red-tails are good birds, but I don't think imprinting is going to make a Red-tail into anything other than a Red-tail. You could certainly get started hunting earlier the first year with an imprint, but I think that the next 30 to 35 years would be similar to hunting with a passage bird. By the way I know a falconer who kept his imprint RT for the whole 36 years of her life. He wasn't flying her, but he felt responsible.

[Lee Slikkers]

Dave, that is probably the single largest thing holding me back, the longevity of the birds life vs the life of the breeding project (if it even proved out)

I was given an article about this hybrid and the viability of the cross seems to have some serious challanges making it through full term in incubation...more food for thought I guess.

[chamokane]

I know what you mean, Lee. At this point, I'd be foolish to get a long lived bird that I couldn't release. It would probably out live me and I wouldn't have any control over what happened to it.

The birds that I have now will be 6, 8, and 19 years old this spring. They are all reasonably good hunting birds and I love them and I put a lot of effort into caring for them. The way I see some birds get passed around, I worry about what would happen to them if they outlived me.

Hybridization can certainly fire the imagination and I've seen some truly great hybrid falcons fly. Any time a new hybrid hawk or falcon is made, it adds something to our knowledge base. There are certainly new things that could be tried with hawks. The Harris Hawk is such a great bird as it is that I always thought that if I ever got into breeding them, I'd concentrate on selective breeding for size, speed, and temperament. Other things got in the way and I never took up breeding. I'm glad to see you working toward it.

[awahl]

Thanks guys. Again, it is an interesting topic that I have never really thought about a lot.

The only thing I would add is that, sometimes, we also let our wishes and desires color our opinions.


You are absolutely right Dave. :D

[everetkhorton]

I didn't think marsh hawks were a legal falconry bird? I've also seen them really put the moves on small birds and can't help but wonder how a nice male would do on small birds...

Lee:
This is the year to go for it. Anything is open day it seam. I thought is was funny years ago some guys in CA were talking about changing the wing shape of RT and imping in longer tail feather. It would not surprise me today to see it happen.

[chamokane]

Lee:
This is the year to go for it. Anything is open day it seam. I thought is was funny years ago some guys in CA were talking about changing the wing shape of RT and imping in longer tail feather. It would not surprise me today to see it happen.

Ev, if I remember right, Frank Beebe imped a complete set of Peregrine flight feathers (wings and tail) onto a Gos to see how she would fly. I think he found that she flew like a Gos.:D

[chamokane]

I didn't think marsh hawks were a legal falconry bird? I've also seen them really put the moves on small birds and can't help but wonder how a nice male would do on small birds...

I can see it now....Marsh Hawks are going to be the next, new, hot bird. amennn

One morning when I got to work at the air base, I found that I had forgotten to bring quail for the falcons. Since I lived 60 miles from work, going home wasn't an option. I needed to get busy and run the dog around the airfield to see what I had to deal with, then I figured I'd go to the grocery store and get some chicken. I had roaded the dog about half way around the perimeter road when he locked up on point. I got out to flush and a male Marsh Hawk left his kill and took off out of the area. I went over to see what he had caught and it was a Hungarian Partridge. He had basically just about finished plucking the Hun so I had hawk food for the day's work. I guess the next time I need a Hun hawk, I better just trap a Marsh Hawk.:D At least we know that one MH was able to catch One Hun. I bet they catch a lot more of them than we would guess. How about a MH for quail?

[everetkhorton]

Dave:
Many years ago, I was at a NAFA meet. I was one of several car etc. following a guy flying a falcon on ducks. We had been driving for some time, more than three hours. He had found a pond with ducks on it. All the cars stopped along side of the road when we went to get the ok to hunt the pond. Most of the people got out and was BSing along side the dirt road. Some of us were sitting on a hi bank next to the road, when we heard a lot of noise and we looked and it was a cock pheasant being chased by a Marsh Hawk. The pheasant was going side to side hitting weeds in the ditch below. That MH was right on it ass and gaining ground. When the MH seen us that close it took off. That MH was with that pheasant wing beat to wing beat.

[wesleyc6]

I have seen MH's catch two birds. Of course both of them were bait birds for a DG net. ARgh!

[everetkhorton]

Wes:
I got one in a cube trap once. That right, you want a picture of a potter trap, I'm off to find one.

[chamokane]

Ev,
I've seen Marsh Hawks fly pretty fast also, but not as fast as a falcon. I've also seen them put in some nice stoops. I was always told not to think about Marsh Hawks because their feet are too small, but they obviously don't just live on mice and sparrows. When I was spending a lot of time hunting pheasants with a HH, Marsh Hawks would try to horn in on the hunt, sometimes 3 or 4 of them at a time. I've seen wild Marsh Hawks hunting together, one flushing while the other waits on. I had a chance to weigh a male Marsh Hawk and he weighed about 13 oz. I would guess that a female would weigh around 18 to 20 oz?

[saker mad]

sorry folks but i think you are nuts a frt with more than 50% chance of grabbing your face i shudder to think :eek: why imprint when you have the god given right to take from the wild do you realise how good you have it here in the uk we would give our right nut for the sniff of doing that christ if we lose a bird we are supposed to apply for a permit to retrap it haill
i bred some reds a few years back and i tell you they scared the living daylights out of me when it was time to catch up the parents she footed me though a thick army boot and made sure she drew blood i ended up going in with a motorcycle crash helmet that was parent reared hawks god knows what a imprint would do as the female was 6lb+ fat weight

ian

[hcf]

hi guys ,

here is a pic from today (sunday ) of imprint f/redtail. never once has she footed me in anger. i help her with the nest and most other stuff.
andy
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z147/hcf_photos/stuff3013.jpg

[FredFogg]

hi guys ,

here is a pic from today (sunday ) of imprint f/redtail. never once has she footed me in anger. i help her with the nest and most other stuff.
andy
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z147/hcf_photos/stuff3013.jpg

Drop her to a hunting weight and see what she does with you! LOL

[chamokane]

sorry folks but i think you are nuts a frt with more than 50% chance of grabbing your face i shudder to think :eek: why imprint when you have the god given right to take from the wild do you realise how good you have it here in the uk we would give our right nut for the sniff of doing that christ if we lose a bird we are supposed to apply for a permit to retrap it haill
i bred some reds a few years back and i tell you they scared the living daylights out of me when it was time to catch up the parents she footed me though a thick army boot and made sure she drew blood i ended up going in with a motorcycle crash helmet that was parent reared hawks god knows what a imprint would do as the female was 6lb+ fat weight

ian

I thank you for your concern, but I have to tell you that no real American falconer would ever think of being seen in public without at least one Red-tail hanging from his face. We only let little girls fly passage birds.

[Lee Slikkers]

hi guys ,

here is a pic from today (sunday ) of imprint f/redtail. never once has she footed me in anger. i help her with the nest and most other stuff.
andy
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z147/hcf_photos/stuff3013.jpg

Beautiful RT Andy, thanks for the pic. I really like the heavy barring on her tail.

[Lee Slikkers]

sorry folks but i think you are nuts a frt with more than 50% chance of grabbing your face i shudder to think :eek: why imprint when you have the god given right to take from the wild do you realise how good you have it here in the uk we would give our right nut for the sniff of doing that christ if we lose a bird we are supposed to apply for a permit to retrap it haill
i bred some reds a few years back and i tell you they scared the living daylights out of me when it was time to catch up the parents she footed me though a thick army boot and made sure she drew blood i ended up going in with a motorcycle crash helmet that was parent reared hawks god knows what a imprint would do as the female was 6lb+ fat weight

ian


Ian, our passage take is awesome and not something any of us take for granted, trust me. However, I originally posed the question as a basic imprint question but as you have probably read, the real question behind it was for a breeding project idea to produce HHx RT hybrids...I think this colors the answers a bit and correctly so...thanks for the input.

[saker mad]

thanks for replying but what are the pro and cons of hybridising a hh with a red i have heard of them but cannot see the point as they are super birds in there own right what would be the benifit of the mix confusedd

atb
ian

[Jimmy]

Gyrs, Sakers, and Peregrines are great birds too, but nobody questions why they're hybridized. The HH/RT hybrid is an unknown for the most part, so we really don't know what it's potential is. One possible benefit would be better cold weather tolerance for the HH part of it, or even better foot size. Perhaps a little more speed to the RT side of it. Who really knows until enough of them are out there to make judgement on them. Then there's always the cool factor.

[everetkhorton]

Jimmy:
When breeding first started a breeder may have had two sets of birds. Let say Saker and Gyr. The male Saker would give semen but the female Gyr was not receptive or laying eggs. So instead of just leaving a dry hole the breeder AI the Gyr with the male seaman. This is just an example. I do not think there was any intent to come up with any super falcon, just something. JMO.

[FredFogg]

Jimmy:
When breeding first started a breeder may have had two sets of birds. Let say Saker and Gyr. The male Saker would give semen but the female Gyr was not receptive or laying eggs. So instead of just leaving a dry hole the breeder AI the Gyr with the male seaman. This is just an example. I do not think there was any intent to come up with any super falcon, just something. JMO.

Actually Ev, there was definately intent when hybrids started out. They were trying to get the best features of both birds and started experimenting. It didn't have anything to do with using the only birds they had in their breeding chambers, although I am sure after it started, that is how some hybrids were started. LOL

[Lee Slikkers]

Ian, my thoughts on this hybrid would mirror Jimmy's. While a few are know and flown I don't think the real potential of this hybrid is full realized yet, I know I will be attempting it for a couple reasons.

I hope that this hybrid will retain some of the HH's social nature
I hope the this hybrid will have some of the RT's resistance to cold (I live in the northern states of the USA)
I hope the hybrid can add a little speed to the RT side (although its possble it could simply slow down the HH side with the RT attributes)
Larger foot size for hunting our Tree Squirrels, I love my current HH's but there is a bit more risk squirrel hawking them vs a RT.

That's just a few thoughts off the top of my head...I hope that helps some.

[saker mad]

all good points lee but dont forget you could go the other way and get all the bad points its a lottery i just hope you win it :eek: i guess i just dont like hybreds im of the thoughts why mess with a perfect bird somewhere down the line it may come back and bite you on the behind

atb
ian

[chamokane]

Lee,

The Gyr and the Peregrine are both truly great birds. However, it seems that a lot of people prefer the hybrid of the two to either parent species. You never know how something new will turn out until it has been given a fair trial. If it is not given a fair trial, you will never know.

After all the lively discussion, I don't think anyone has answered your initial question, which, if I can remember back that far, was basically: What is the best way to imprint a RT? Have you decided on a basic approach yet?

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee,

The Gyr and the Peregrine are both truly great birds. However, it seems that a lot of people prefer the hybrid of the two to either parent species. You never know how something new will turn out until it has been given a fair trial. If it is not given a fair trial, you will never know.

After all the lively discussion, I don't think anyone has answered your initial question, which, if I can remember back that far, was basically: What is the best way to imprint a RT? Have you decided on a basic approach yet?

Dave, the short answer is no, I haven’t decided which way I will proceed with this idea yet. After thinking about Jimmy’s idea of having a HH pair raise the eyas I am leaning more that way. My issue currently is figuring out a breeding pair of HH’s for the 1st step of this…I have secured a 5yr old male HH but the female portion of my equation is still uncertain.

I think I will start there for now…which more than likely leaves the imprint RT part not happening this spring but who knows ;)

[chamokane]

Lee, I wish you good luck. I assume that you will be raising the RT's intended mate in the same nest so the imprinting works both ways?

I wonder if raising the pair as cohort raised eyases would work?

[everetkhorton]

Fred:
Also the year

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee, I wish you good luck. I assume that you will be raising the RT's intended mate in the same nest so the imprinting works both ways?

I wonder if raising the pair as cohort raised eyases would work?

That is what I am leaning towards at the moment (until or unless someone has a better, more proven idea.)

cohort raised eyases ??? Can you explain this a bit more? Thanks Dave!

[chamokane]

That is what I am leaning towards at the moment (until or unless someone has a better, more proven idea.)

cohort raised eyases ??? Can you explain this a bit more? Thanks Dave!

Lee, cohort rearing refers to the practice of hand rearing two or more chicks together in the same nest box, also sometimes called dual imprinting. The chicks are supposed to turn out very tame, but also imprinted on their own kind.

What if you hand raised a RT chick and a HH chick together, avoiding food association with humans? Maybe you could feed them through a curtain using a hawk puppet or something. Would that increase the odds that the two chicks would breed naturally? If they were exposed to human activity, but never fed by humans, maybe they would turn out calm but still imprinted on each other.

I'm just talking here, I've never tried anything like that myself. Maybe some breeders could comment.

[Jimmy]

Dave, that's very similar to how I'm considering trying to make that hybrid. Seems the most logical way to try it, to me.

[GhostRider]

The real danger in all that is even if you make no food association there is always a high risk of parental association the same...

Pics shows a RT I've imprinted and turned out to be very calm and steady. But I would not recommend to do this unless you are 100% sure of where you are going

Dan

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/DanParadis/Photo263.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/DanParadis/Photo320.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/DanParadis/Photo356.jpg

[chris kimble]

I cant stand it anymore! Im goin' nest hunting!peacee

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee, cohort rearing refers to the practice of hand rearing two or more chicks together in the same nest box, also sometimes called dual imprinting. The chicks are supposed to turn out very tame, but also imprinted on their own kind.

Gotcha, I understand the term dual imprint, just never heard it called cohort rearing. Thanks, I think it could be the way to go with this...


The real danger in all that is even if you make no food association there is always a high risk of parental association the same...

Pics shows a RT I've imprinted and turned out to be very calm and steady. But I would not recommend to do this unless you are 100% sure of where you are going

Dan

Dan, great pics! Would you care to share what you believe is the correct way to imprint RT's? I'm very interested...

[GhostRider]

Gotcha, I understand the term dual imprint, just never heard it called cohort rearing. Thanks, I think it could be the way to go with this...



Dan, great pics! Would you care to share what you believe is the correct way to imprint RT's? I'm very interested...

Lee: cohort rearing can be refered to as "group reared"

For the proper way of imprinting a raptor for falconry or austringry "if there is any" ....I believe McDermott's books makes a very good reference to strart with

I personally consider imprints better suited for AI and hybrid making...but does'nt mean you can't do it the same for hunting anyway

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee: cohort rearing can be refered to as "group reared"

For the proper way of imprinting a raptor for falconry or austringry "if there is any" ....I believe McDermott's books makes a very good reference to strart with

I personally consider imprints better suited for AI and hybrid making...but does'nt mean you can't do it the same for hunting anyway

Thanks Dan, actually AI or hybridizing would be my purpose for attempting this project. I am leaning more & more towards attempting it this spring...

[Jimmy]

Do you have redtails listed on your prop permit, Lee?

[Lee Slikkers]

Do you have redtails listed on your prop permit, Lee?

not at the moment but I'd have 2 yrs minimum before any RT I raise would be old enough to add to my permit, I also don't think adding a RT to my prop permit would cause any heartburn, but one neve knows I guess...

[Jimmy]

So you'd put it on your falconry permit in the meantime? I think I'd just put it straight on the prop permit, rather than take up a falconry slot. Unless you planned to hunt it....... I think I'll call about adding them to mine today, and see what happens.

[Lee Slikkers]

So you'd put it on your falconry permit in the meantime? I think I'd just put it straight on the prop permit, rather than take up a falconry slot. Unless you planned to hunt it....... I think I'll call about adding them to mine today, and see what happens.

so you'd call the state or fed. regional person? IK've thought about doing it both ways...

[Jimmy]

Call the same person who granted your permit.......
and check your PMs.

[goshawks00]

With the current trend of some regions allowing the breeding of RTs and others that don't, I think it's prudent, at least in Lee's case, to wait and see how the new regs play out.... Once atthority is given to the states, and because we have a great state permitter the odds of getting a RT added will go way up.
.02
Barry

[Jimmy]

Barry, I didn't realize that the FEDs were gonna hand over the propagation side of things to the states. Did I miss something?

[hawkstir]

I guess this question could go here or on the thread about pulling wild eggs. Anyway, what about the idea of pulling RT eggs and hatching them out and then letting your harrises raise them along with thier own chicks?

[wesleyc6]

I guess this question could go here or on the thread about pulling wild eggs. Anyway, what about the idea of pulling RT eggs and hatching them out and then letting your harrises raise them along with thier own chicks?


I had thought if the timing was right about letting a HH raise a gos for me at one time. There would be no issues if the egg hatched out around the same time. If it hatched 14 days earlier, it would be a little harder.

[Lee Slikkers]

Well, I thought I'd drag this "dead horse' out once more since I found some issues that will/would make this project difficult at best.

My intent was to produce a HH x RT hybrid...after rereading my Propagation Regs last night I ran across this little gem that pretty much puts the brakes on such a project...

"Interspecific Hybridization. Hybridization between species is authorised only if each raptor produced by intersoecific hybridization is either imprinted (hand-raised in isolation from the sight of other raptors from two weeks of age until it is fully feathered) or surgically sterilized.

I don't know of many folks who would be interested in flying an imprinted HH x RT and I know of no one who provides the surgically sterilized procedure.

That pretty much puts an end to my thoughts on this hybrid I think...

[Jimmy]

I'll do the surgery for ya, Lee........ hehehe

[Lee Slikkers]

I'll do the surgery for ya, Lee........ hehehe

LOL, seriously...has anyone ever know someone who had a bird sterilized?

Kinda sucks as it really puts a binder on my long term project!

[Jimmy]

It's not gonna slow me down from trying..........

[Lee Slikkers]

How do you intend on getting around that clause?

[Jimmy]

cough, cough......... cough, cough.........

[Lee Slikkers]

ahhh yess, then there is that....couuugh, couugh....

[goshawks00]

Lee been tossing this around now for a while.... A thought!!!!!!! (light bulb please"... As you know I've been working through hacking out goshawks for several years now, and had thought about a dual hack with siblings.

I wonder what would happen reared a hh and art together truly dual imprinting them as in to you and each other..then hacking them out to kind of muddy the brain matter and gradually work them into a pr.... both for hunting and breeding.

As was mentioned the only problem ( yea right<G>) would be that the possibility of that is you would most likely only be able to breed that pr together as other RTs or HHs would kill them if put together. If only imprinted to you , there would be a myrid of possibiliteis as far as imsemenating goes. Then there is also THE LESS DANGEROUS possibility of imprinting a male RT then making a donor out of him for possible other crosses besides hh.

That brings up another question we have spent most of this thred thinking about the RT female as being the RT side of this cross , what about imprinting a male... anyone have any anticdotal evidence about male imprint aggression?

Barry

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee been tossing this around now for a while.... A thought!!!!!!! (light bulb please"... As you know I've been working through hacking out goshawks for several years now, and had thought about a dual hack with siblings.

I wonder what would happen reared a hh and art together truly dual imprinting them as in to you and each other..then hacking them out to kind of muddy the brain matter and gradually work them into a pr.... both for hunting and breeding.

As was mentioned the only problem ( yea right<G>) would be that the possibility of that is you would most likely only be able to breed that pr together as other RTs or HHs would kill them if put together. If only imprinted to you , there would be a myrid of possibiliteis as far as imsemenating goes. Then there is also THE LESS DANGEROUS possibility of imprinting a male RT then making a donor out of him for possible other crosses besides hh.

That brings up another question we have spent most of this thred thinking about the RT female as being the RT side of this cross , what about imprinting a male... anyone have any anticdotal evidence about male imprint aggression?

Barry

Hmmmm.....need more cogitaiting. confusedd

[outhawkn]

I only know of two imprinted RT's. And both were so aggresive they couldnt be hunted with anyone else around..........I dont know if it was the birds or the trainers fault............

[outhawkn]

Ev, I've been trying to catch a marsh hawk for years. Just dont have the talent I guess. But I have seen them turn the heat on when chasing birds and I know they have a turbo button! They may not fit the traditional mold of falconry, but I'd love to try one......not tryin to change the subject thoughsorryy

I tried one when I was kid. It didnt turn out. But it could of been me...confusedd

[chamokane]

Lee been tossing this around now for a while.... A thought!!!!!!! (light bulb please"... As you know I've been working through hacking out goshawks for several years now, and had thought about a dual hack with siblings.

I wonder what would happen reared a hh and art together truly dual imprinting them as in to you and each other..then hacking them out to kind of muddy the brain matter and gradually work them into a pr.... both for hunting and breeding.

As was mentioned the only problem ( yea right<G>) would be that the possibility of that is you would most likely only be able to breed that pr together as other RTs or HHs would kill them if put together. If only imprinted to you , there would be a myrid of possibiliteis as far as imsemenating goes. Then there is also THE LESS DANGEROUS possibility of imprinting a male RT then making a donor out of him for possible other crosses besides hh.

That brings up another question we have spent most of this thred thinking about the RT female as being the RT side of this cross , what about imprinting a male... anyone have any anticdotal evidence about male imprint aggression?

Barry

I had an imprint male for a few years. He was imprinted by someone else who flew him for four years then released him. He was taken back into custody because he was reported for hanging around an apartment complex and preying upon "house cats and other domestic critters." These were the game departments words.

He was footy around food but never displayed any outright aggression toward me or anyone else while I had him. I have no idea how he acted with his original owner.

[EAZFalconer]

Lee,
Did you attempt this mating?

[Todd Brown]

I flew a male imprint RT the last 3 1/2 seasons......loved him....very well behaved.

He didn't like some people though....he wouldn't be aggressive..he'd just would not fly well when someone he didn't like was in the field...He'd chase game but wouldn't follow well.

I do wonder if he'd been a female would I have bad stories to tell.