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keriana
05-12-2015, 03:55 AM
I'd like to presente a book I wrote about owls: Nocturnal Mind.
This book talks about the mental of an owl, how it sees the world and how we have to interact with it, its differencies with the diurnal raptors.
I think that understand their behaviors, way of life and mind is the most important to work with them.

http://i19.servimg.com/u/f19/11/25/42/27/portad10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/view/11254227/201)

Nocturnal Mind is available in US through this link:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/anna-sanchez/nocturnal-mind-study-of-the-behavior-of-nocturnal-predators-in-captivity-and-specialized-training-guide/paperback/product-21906738.html

Gerkin
08-15-2015, 09:14 AM
I'm curious if anyone has read this book yet?

bdyelm
12-25-2015, 11:36 PM
Bump.... I'd love a comparison of this book and Understanding Owls by Jemima Perry-Jones if anybody has read it yet.

Gerkin
12-26-2015, 06:10 AM
Nocturnal Mind is a terrible fantasy story which lacks any hints, tips suggestions or behavioral science.

Its a classic example of a trainer having an illusion of skill, experience & ability when in fact its simply nature over coming adversity.

keriana
12-26-2015, 01:02 PM
Whatís going to be a great fantasy, itís the way Iím going to express myself with my level of EnglishÖlet me apologize for that right now :)

I perfectly understand that the content is not to anyoneís liking, but this book is not intended to impress, but about being within the reach of everybody and explain simple way my point of view. My approach differs vastly, one has to start with a basic base. I could be more scientific, but why complicate something simple?

I work for passion and interest to understand these animals and that provides me no profit, aside from the satisfaction from respecting them. The center denies donations, subventions, sponsorship and doesnít get any benefit with the work of the owls. This only to guarantee the objectivity of the results. All this means that I havenít interest to say something not objective just for interest and no benefit to share. Over than 150 owls have been the subject of a strict and meticulous study, an intensive field work, deliberated mistakes have been made and rectified, exchanges with several scientific fields and hours analyzing. If skill, experience and ability comes down to train birds and get benefit of its work, without taking the slightest risk and without venture off the beaten path, yes, I lack qualifications, God forbid.

I appreciate your opinion because I think that adversity could be constructive if there is a dialogue and Iím sorry you didnít appreciate the book, but I would very pleased to speak with you.

Hawkmom
12-26-2015, 01:18 PM
There is the www.iaate.org. An organization of bird trainers, founded by falconer Steve Martin of www.naturalencounters.com. And considered one of the best bird trainers in the world, And the late Walter Crawford of www.wbs.org (World Bird Sanctuary). IAATE is the professional organization for bird trainers. I would suggestyou join them, and show them your book. I think that they can offer great constructive ideas.

Hawkmom
12-26-2015, 01:22 PM
And of course Jemima Parry-Jones author of Understanding Owls. and her facility is the www.icbp.org.

Gerkin
12-27-2015, 08:44 AM
I perfectly understand that the content is not to anyoneís liking

The book was falsely advertised.
Suggesting training techniques and insights into the psychology of owls when in reality all one got was an anthropomorphic story line that didn't culminate in any usable information.

keriana
12-27-2015, 12:35 PM
Iím sorry to express myself so bad in English, but I think you donít understand me.
I donít have any interest in human performance and I know that these people are very well supervised and donít need nobody for that. Maybe talk about owlsí brain structure could be interesting, but I think it wouldnít be convenient in this case. I donít train animals for show, thatís not my cup of tea and against my way of thinking, but Iím able to highly appreciate this work, above all when itís done with well-being concern.

It must be said that, the last years, the situation of owls has improved a lotÖ Most of people donít make it out with them like before, results are always so disappointing or limited and their reputation is the same or worth. What people have learned very well is that they can have an owl as pet because they are so cute and children know that they love hugs and to be touchedÖ.A lot of breeders understood the situation and donít hesitate to produce 200 to 300 chicks a year which would be very easy to place anywhere. A success story! Fortunately there are people with ethics, but not enough to stop this disaster.
When things goes wrong and situation is getting out of hand, we must open our eyes and admit that maybe weíre flying off course. It doesnít workÖ.That does not apply great trainers or prestigious centers, but regular people, falconers, etc to whom we made believe it was easy. These people and, above all these birds, donít need the best trainer of the world or prestigious science dissertations, they just need someone who help them to get out of the shit we left them. Take time for them is the most urgent and important for me, I donít care about prestige and recognition.
If some people donít like my work or donít agree, thatís not a problem, I can understand. Iím picking up the pieces ďat the bottom of the ladderĒ where nobody wants to tarnish its reputation. To belittle or look down on me is very unnecessary and ridiculousÖ

tammylynne
12-27-2015, 04:41 PM
Well, just ordered it to read...curious!

Gerkin
12-27-2015, 05:04 PM
To belittle or look down on me is very unnecessary and ridiculousÖ

To target a market of which I'm a member, with a completely inaccurate blurb and then to post a complete contradiction to that blurb of yours lends credit to my previous posts.

vampdragon
12-28-2015, 10:45 AM
The book Nocturnal Mind by Anna Sanchez is not a classic "how to" book. However it is a very good book and it does provide a great deal of information in the conditioning of owls to work with human partners for the purposes of hunting. If you are looking for a "step-by-step" from trap/purchase to catching prey in the field, then this book is not for you. But if you are interested in understanding how the different physiological and psychological state of owls affects how you work with them to get a well conditioned and healthy owl, this is the book for you.

I have read and applied much of what I learned in this book to the conditioning of my Great Horned Owl, and I have to say, it has been a huge success so far. We are just about ready for our first hunt, but more importantly, I have an owl who files to my glove not only in strange environments which he is uncomfortable in, and in environments which he is comfortable in, he flies to me instantly with no reward on the fist, just to be with me.

What you will find in this book by Anna, is not a "this is how you train them to hunt, or come to the lure, or come to the glove." Much of this is the same as conditioning a hawk, falcon or an eagle. What you will find in this book is how to initial human/owl relationship is formed, and why it is different from the other birds which we work with. Things from information about the differences in hearing, eye sight, lack of a crop, and very importantly, body language is covered in the book. No, it isn't a scientific journal, using long scientific names, or pages of explanation. It was however written in such a way that I was able to easily digest the information and begin to apply it to a successful relationship.

I am a rather newcomer to the sport of falconry, achieving my general status just a little over 6 months ago, so I don't have the experiences and knowledge of 20 or 30 years of falconry. Yet, I think this helps keep my mind open to new ideas and new approaches. There is no single way to accomplish a task in falconry. There are a number of ways that are traditional, and many ways that have been used for centuries due to success with trial and error. Yet we are still finding different, and some times better ways of doing things even today, using drones for falcon lure training is just one example. Take the information that Anna Sanchez provides in her book in the way you feel is best and works for you. For me, it was a wealth of information.

rkumetz
12-28-2015, 11:22 AM
To target a market of which I'm a member, with a completely inaccurate blurb and then to post a complete contradiction to that blurb of yours lends credit to my previous posts.


I have not read this book however as an impartial observer it appears to me that you are being a bit unfair at best. If you would like to criticize the book then I think it is incumbent upon you to provide examples the material in the book which is not correct, etc. What you have said so far is that it is not what you expected and an individual's expectations of any purchase are very subjective.

It also appears that the author is at a bit of a disadvantage in this debate since she is presumably not a native English speaker.

tammylynne
12-28-2015, 11:26 AM
Thank you for comments Daniel. It sounds interesting and glad to read your point of view. :)

Breeze
12-28-2015, 11:55 AM
The book Nocturnal Mind by Anna Sanchez is not a classic "how to" book. However it is a very good book and it does provide a great deal of information in the conditioning of owls to work with human partners for the purposes of hunting. If you are looking for a "step-by-step" from trap/purchase to catching prey in the field, then this book is not for you. But if you are interested in understanding how the different physiological and psychological state of owls affects how you work with them to get a well conditioned and healthy owl, this is the book for you.

I have read and applied much of what I learned in this book to the conditioning of my Great Horned Owl, and I have to say, it has been a huge success so far. We are just about ready for our first hunt, but more importantly, I have an owl who files to my glove not only in strange environments which he is uncomfortable in, and in environments which he is comfortable in, he flies to me instantly with no reward on the fist, just to be with me.

What you will find in this book by Anna, is not a "this is how you train them to hunt, or come to the lure, or come to the glove." Much of this is the same as conditioning a hawk, falcon or an eagle. What you will find in this book is how to initial human/owl relationship is formed, and why it is different from the other birds which we work with. Things from information about the differences in hearing, eye sight, lack of a crop, and very importantly, body language is covered in the book. No, it isn't a scientific journal, using long scientific names, or pages of explanation. It was however written in such a way that I was able to easily digest the information and begin to apply it to a successful relationship.

I am a rather newcomer to the sport of falconry, achieving my general status just a little over 6 months ago, so I don't have the experiences and knowledge of 20 or 30 years of falconry. Yet, I think this helps keep my mind open to new ideas and new approaches. There is no single way to accomplish a task in falconry. There are a number of ways that are traditional, and many ways that have been used for centuries due to success with trial and error. Yet we are still finding different, and some times better ways of doing things even today, using drones for falcon lure training is just one example. Take the information that Anna Sanchez provides in her book in the way you feel is best and works for you. For me, it was a wealth of information.

Thanks, Daniel, for taking time to post. Since you purchased the book and actually put the contents to USE with a Great Horned Owl, your input means a great deal. Best wishes with your owl - have fun out there!

Going to go now and purchase a copy of the book, to see what Anna has to say. I know her long posts here in this forum, to assist others who are working with owls, have provided a good deal of information. Anna works with and has been successful with owls - there has to be some good stuff in this book.

If you are reading this, thank you, Anna, for taking time to compile the information and provide it for others to use, should they wish to. Writing a book takes a LOT of work and effort on the part of the author.

Gerkin
12-28-2015, 12:41 PM
I have not read this book however as an impartial observer it appears to me that you are being a bit unfair at best

Just buy it.

Breeze
12-28-2015, 02:16 PM
I just did, Marcus, and for the small price being asked for this book I'm quite confident I will learn enough to make it worthwhile.

Breeze
01-13-2016, 01:17 AM
Nocturnal Mind is a terrible fantasy story which lacks any hints, tips suggestions or behavioral science.

Its a classic example of a trainer having an illusion of skill, experience & ability when in fact its simply nature over coming adversity.

Wow. Okay, I bought the book and just finished reading it and have to say you are so wrong it isn't even funny. This is an EXCELLENT book, well written and provides the information needed to understand the mind of a nocturnal bird of prey, and from that starting point, be able to work with them; I highly recommend it! firsts

Your comment in a separate post was, ". . . in reality all one got was an anthropomorphic story line that didn't culminate in any usable information". Did you really even READ the book? confusedd If so, you missed a LOT of valuable information! Might want to try reading it again.

Yes, the author starts with a description of how the world is viewed, from the point of view of an owl. To do so she HAD to write it as an anthropomorphic story line. Otherwise it would have read, "HOO, HOO" - "Hoo" - "HOO HOO HOO" and so on for a long time. Since MOST humans can't read and understand owl verbage, I believe the anthropomorphic approach was far better. clapp ;)

AFTER describing (very well, in my opinion) the thinking of an owl as changes from day/night occur, and other events in the owl's world take place, she goes on to explain HOW we need to change our behavior to best communicate with the owl. There is a TON of good information in this book and so very happily recommend it. peacee

However, it is not a "cookbook training book" - it deals with how the mind of the nocturnal bird works, principles that must be adhered to, and basic knowledge to allow a person to work with an owl and actually communicate with it in a manner that the owl will appreciate and understand.

Sorry if you read this book and got nothing from it, as you missed a GREAT opportunity to learn something.

THANK YOU, Anna Sanchez for writing this material and sharing your insight into the minds of the Nocturnal raptors! Well done! amennn clapp clapp clapp

Betelgeuse
01-13-2016, 01:32 PM
Not related to this book, but to the author--- I have seen her post useful information when replying to persons having trouble understanding and being successful with owls. As an impartial observer, I found the author's replies generous and informative. I wish I had known her when working with a GHO a few years back.

rkumetz
01-13-2016, 02:03 PM
Not related to this book, but to the author--- I have seen her post useful information when replying to persons having trouble understanding and being successful with owls. As an impartial observer, I found the author's replies generous and informative. I wish I had known her when working with a GHO a few years back.

When I read the critical comments below my first though was that the poster did not cite any specific information but simply made very broad judgements about the content. As with any product review you can get 999 reviews that say "this product is incredible" yet one person will say "this item was a total waste of money" offering no evidence and paying no attention to the fact that his/her opinion is conflicts with the vast majority. It is absolutely ok to differ with the majority opinion but it is incumbent upon that person to offer some evidence to support their opinion if they don't want to risk looking foolish.

sharptail
01-14-2016, 08:14 PM
Wow, writing a techinal book on raptors in other than your native language is impressive. I only slightly speak a a second tounge and wouldn't even think of trying to write in French or Spanish.

Owls are not my thing and even though I question their value in sport, I must say, well done.

vampdragon
01-14-2016, 11:31 PM
Wow, writing a techinal book on raptors in other than your native language is impressive. I only slightly speak a a second tounge and wouldn't even think of trying to write in French or Spanish.

Owls are not my thing and even though I question their value in sport, I must say, well done.

It is very interesting. In addition to her book, I have been in communication with Anna Sanchez as I have worked with my owl. English is her third or fourth language and she actually relies a lot on translator applications to help her out. I'm not going to give away all her secrets, not my place, but the Spanish and French are the easy publications for her. The English one is tough for her, as seen by the publication dates of her second book on Snowy Owls. There was a 3 or 4 month wait for the English version after she released the Spanish and French.

Nocturnal Mind was her first book, and there are a number of "holes" that she is aware of. I know a number of them have brought to her attention by others, and a few even by me as we have worked together to condition my GHO.

I agree and disagree with you on the use of owls in falconry, but that is a great thing about how varied the sport really is, we can all have our own opinions, all I ask is don't hate me for trying. I have found one thing in my journey so far though, and that is it does take a certain person and mindset to work with owls for falconry. Anna's book, when read with an open mind, really helps to understand the different mindset needed. They are a bird that will test your patience and you have to work with a "long term plan" instead of a "trap on Sunday, hunt on Friday" format.

I believe that there are only a few raptors that don't work well with falconry, and most of that is due to the type of prey they take, Ospreys for example, though that would be one hell of a way to fish if you could figure it out. I believe that for the rest, with a few exceptions, it just takes the right person, the right mindset, and the right style.

rkumetz
01-15-2016, 11:31 AM
Owls are not my thing and even though I question their value in sport, I must say, well done.

Jeff,

When I was an apprentice I came across an older gentleman who was a retired (science, I believe) teacher living in Chicago. He hunted rats, bunnies and squirrels with his GHO in cemeteries within city limits. He didn't take huge quantities of "game" but he was having fun and he was pursuing wild quarry with a bird of prey which (as I recall) is the definition of the sport.

I think that one concept that we have all managed to agree upon (and we don't agree upon many things) is that you need to find a bird that fits your particular location and prey base as well as your life situation.
Same thing with car hawking a kestrel on schoolyard starlings, etc. If you don't have big open spaces and sage grouse but you want to enjoy falconry you have 3 choices: change your life (not always an option), figure out a workable compromise or sit around and just feel sorry for yourself that you can't enjoy the falconry that others enjoy.



I guess what I am trying to say is that the value of any species is whatever the falconer can make of it or "whatever floats your boat".

Breeze
01-15-2016, 01:35 PM
Jeff,

When I was an apprentice I came across an older gentleman who was a retired (science, I believe) teacher living in Chicago. He hunted rats, bunnies and squirrels with his GHO in cemeteries within city limits. He didn't take huge quantities of "game" but he was having fun and he was pursuing wild quarry with a bird of prey which (as I recall) is the definition of the sport.

I think that one concept that we have all managed to agree upon (and we don't agree upon many things) is that you need to find a bird that fits your particular location and prey base as well as your life situation.
Same thing with car hawking a kestrel on schoolyard starlings, etc. If you don't have big open spaces and sage grouse but you want to enjoy falconry you have 3 choices: change your life (not always an option), figure out a workable compromise or sit around and just feel sorry for yourself that you can't enjoy the falconry that others enjoy.



I guess what I am trying to say is that the value of any species is whatever the falconer can make of it or "whatever floats your boat".

clapp clapp clapp

sharptail
01-16-2016, 05:49 PM
Jeff,

When I was an apprentice I came across an older gentleman who was a retired (science, I believe) teacher living in Chicago. He hunted rats, bunnies and squirrels with his GHO in cemeteries within city limits. He didn't take huge quantities of "game" but he was having fun and he was pursuing wild quarry with a bird of prey which (as I recall) is the definition of the sport.


Ok, so how would flying a RT, Harris' or Goshawk not been more fun, easier, less training with more hunting time. GHO's are attacked and harrassed relentlessly, when hunting in daylight, by many birds, such as Crow, Magpie, Kestral, RT, goshawk, Coopers, most large falcons and Eagles.

Some think that hunting at night is all the rage, while I like to be able to see hard crankin, long range, fast moving flight not condusive to the dark. Even so, when flying at night, wouldn't a RT or Harris' be better suited? For the time and effort needed, are not any of the commonly used hawks a much better choice for real sport, not just something to fool with, but a true hunting companion?

That said, I do see a value in rehabing owls to return them to the wild. Training and hunting with them is the best way to do so.

Hey Vampdragon, why would I hate you...I don't even know you. Buy the way I was in Tulsa for a coulpe of weeks in November.

rkumetz
01-17-2016, 11:09 AM
Ok, so how would flying a RT, Harris' or Goshawk not been more fun, easier, less training with more hunting time. GHO's are attacked and harrassed relentlessly, when hunting in daylight, by many birds, such as Crow, Magpie, Kestral, RT, goshawk, Coopers, most large falcons and Eagles.

Some think that hunting at night is all the rage, while I like to be able to see hard crankin, long range, fast moving flight not condusive to the dark. Even so, when flying at night, wouldn't a RT or Harris' be better suited? For the time and effort needed, are not any of the commonly used hawks a much better choice for real sport, not just something to fool with, but a true hunting companion?

That said, I do see a value in rehabing owls to return them to the wild. Training and hunting with them is the best way to do so.


You are presupposing that the object of the game for everyone is to simply have a large head count and to be successful with minimal effort.
If someone wants to kill a lot of critters with the most minimal effort then
the most effective species would be Shotgunus Three and a halfus inchus shellus of any number of sub species.

There a a lot of classical falconry texts where the author felt the same way about one or another species that is currently used at least relatively successfully. It sort of grinds my gears that whenever someone appears on NAFEX looking for information about owls what they usually get is a number of comments which question their sanity or motivation.

Some of us like to learn and try new things. Breaking new ground is part of the fun. I have not tried to fly a GHO but at some point when I have time on my hands I might give it a whirl.

vampdragon
01-19-2016, 10:53 AM
Ok, so how would flying a RT, Harris' or Goshawk not been more fun, easier, less training with more hunting time. GHO's are attacked and harrassed relentlessly, when hunting in daylight, by many birds, such as Crow, Magpie, Kestral, RT, goshawk, Coopers, most large falcons and Eagles.

Some think that hunting at night is all the rage, while I like to be able to see hard crankin, long range, fast moving flight not condusive to the dark. Even so, when flying at night, wouldn't a RT or Harris' be better suited? For the time and effort needed, are not any of the commonly used hawks a much better choice for real sport, not just something to fool with, but a true hunting companion?

That said, I do see a value in rehabing owls to return them to the wild. Training and hunting with them is the best way to do so.

Hey Vampdragon, why would I hate you...I don't even know you. Buy the way I was in Tulsa for a coulpe of weeks in November.

Jeff, thank you for your reply. You make a lot of good points. I'm going to leave it up to perspective and how each of us enjoys the sport. There are a number of challenges in the sport when using owls. The harassment from other birds is one of them, however it doesn't just happen with owls. I've witnesses crows, blue jays, and other hawks harass falconry Harris hawks, red tails, falcons, etc. Even have a friend who lost her Coooper's hawk last Wednesday due to a wild Red-Tail.

I don't plan on hunting Kismet during the night. As a matter of fact, I have been strongly encouraged NOT to hunt him during the night by the author of the book. I have had Kismet out in the field probably 15 or more times in the past few months, if even to just exercise him, and he has yet to be harassed.

The various forms of falconry are not for everyone. The important thing is to decide how each of us wants to work with in the sport, and where we get our enjoyment.

Let me know when you are in town next year. We can find some time to hit the fields out here.

Breeze
01-19-2016, 12:32 PM
Awesome, Daniel! Would love to hear more about your flying of Kismet. Agree with what you are saying regarding perspective, too. What one falconer LOVES to do, others don't enjoy or won't do at all. I LOVE squirrel hawking - many folks don't want their birds to pursue them. Doesn't make me, or them, "wrong" - just means we have a different way of viewing what we want from falconry. Nocturnals. A true challenge, but after reading the book I DO see where it is doable! Especially if one is wise enough to link up with the author and let her answer questions along the way. Good thinking!

vampdragon
01-19-2016, 12:53 PM
Awesome, Daniel! Would love to hear more about your flying of Kismet. Agree with what you are saying regarding perspective, too. What one falconer LOVES to do, others don't enjoy or won't do at all. I LOVE squirrel hawking - many folks don't want their birds to pursue them. Doesn't make me, or them, "wrong" - just means we have a different way of viewing what we want from falconry. Nocturnals. A true challenge, but after reading the book I DO see where it is doable! Especially if one is wise enough to link up with the author and let her answer questions along the way. Good thinking!

How you hunt, and your reason for hunting should be your primary drive. You love squirrel hawking. I haven't really tried it, but wouldn't mind giving it a shot. My sponsor is very careful with it as he has had a few hawks loose toes, so he prefers to wait for the right bird. I hunt with a falconer in northern OK that likes to push the boundaries of his birds ability. He hates it when his harris hawks catch rats. Me, I'm in it for the hunt itself and the enjoyment of working with the bird. I'm just as happy when my Red Tail takes a cotton rat, a wood rat, a cotton tail, a snake or a legless lizard. Heck, I was thrilled with a hunt a couple weeks ago, when she was around an ounce high for the temps and still chased some bunnies but came home. I learned something during that hunt and she still had some good slips.

As long as you are legal and you are working and treating your bird ethically, fly falconry in your style. Also, don't force a bird to hunt "your way." I feel if the bird isn't hunting the way you want to hunt, either release them if you can, or if you can't find someone who hunts the way the bird wants to hunt. In my 2.5 years, (yes I'm a "newbie" in this sport) I have seen each bird have a different personality. find the bird that matches your personality. When that happens, you will have the time of your life. If you are fighting the bird the whole time, you are going to want to give up the sport. That is my philosophy. :)

Breeze
01-19-2016, 01:28 PM
I have seen each bird have a different personality. find the bird that matches your personality. When that happens, you will have the time of your life. :)

Couldn't agree more! I'm VERY fortunate in that Breeze was the first bird I trapped (with my sponsor of course) and we fit together personality wise and have great team work together in the field. LOVE flying this bird. No struggles, no problems, just a WHOLE LOT OF FUN! The right bird makes a huge difference. Found mine. ;)

Falconer54
01-20-2016, 12:53 AM
Three years ago Anna wrote on a thread here that she was coming to the USA and would like to meet some Falconers, and watch their birds fly. I responded, and also a friend lived nearby came out. Anna had her sister drive her to a meeting place where she was able to watch some of our falcons be flown. We had nice discussions about owls and training them, which seemed foreign to me. She had great knowledge of owl behavior, and has trained many owls to hunt successfully, besides breeding different species of owls in captivity. After meeting we wrote back and forth for quite a while and I was quite impressed with her knowledge and experience with owls. They are a whole different world. Probably one of the most knowledgeable and experienced owl handler in the world. She has pretty much dedicated her life to living and learning about owls. I haven't read her book, but if I was to deal with owls, and needed some advice or help, Anna would be the first person I would call! Besides the fact that she is a lovely human being who is quite kind and patient.

sharptail
01-20-2016, 02:24 AM
Wow, I would be interested in seeing some pic of kills and discriptions of the flight style. Call me a skeptic but do her owls hunt and kill regularly? I still have my doubts that they hold there own when compared to the hawks of falconry.

BestBeagler
01-20-2016, 10:10 AM
Wow, I would be interested in seeing some pic of kills and discriptions of the flight style. Call me a skeptic but do her owls hunt and kill regularly? I still have my doubts that they hold there own when compared to the hawks of falconry.

I wonder how many falconers kill prairie chickens on a regular basis? Hold their own compared to... Guys killing hundreds of starling's with kestrels car hawking may look down on long wingers killing only a few grouse.

jal4470
01-20-2016, 10:35 AM
I wonder how many falconers kill prairie chickens on a regular basis? Hold their own compared to... Guys killing hundreds of starling's with kestrels car hawking may look down on long wingers killing only a few grouse.


But don't you know its ok to fail, if you do it with style:) Don't be too successful though, that's vulgar.

rkumetz
01-20-2016, 10:39 AM
I wonder how many falconers kill prairie chickens on a regular basis? Hold their own compared to... Guys killing hundreds of starling's with kestrels car hawking may look down on long wingers killing only a few grouse.

Not only that, how many starlings or sparrows have their gyr's and big hybrids brought to bag? Probably none so are they less capable than a kestrel?

It is all a matter of perspective. frus)

vampdragon
01-20-2016, 11:52 AM
Wow, I would be interested in seeing some pic of kills and discriptions of the flight style. Call me a skeptic but do her owls hunt and kill regularly? I still have my doubts that they hold there own when compared to the hawks of falconry.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Hold their own when compared to hawks and falcons." On a ounce for ounce comparison, the natural prey for owls tend to be larger and more powerful for owls compared to hawks. While Red-Tails tend to focus on small mammals such as cotton rats, wood rats, small rabbits, snakes, small birds like dove and quail, a Great Horned Owl of the same weight hunt wood rats, cotton tail rabbits, skunks, barn cats, mallard ducks, etc. They believe this is due to the shorter, but thicker tarsus bone that owls have, which allow them to deliver more "punch." (this information is not in Anna's book, but found through additional research). They do have a different hunting style, much more of a wait for the perfect moment and then assassinate compared to a high speed chase, but they will chase as well, though they do fly much slower.

sharptail
01-21-2016, 01:35 AM
I guess it depends on what you mean by "Hold their own when compared to hawks and falcons." On a ounce for ounce comparison, the natural prey for owls tend to be larger and more powerful for owls compared to hawks. While Red-Tails tend to focus on small mammals such as cotton rats, wood rats, small rabbits, snakes, small birds like dove and quail, a Great Horned Owl of the same weight hunt wood rats, cotton tail rabbits, skunks, barn cats, mallard ducks, etc. They believe this is due to the shorter, but thicker tarsus bone that owls have, which allow them to deliver more "punch." (this information is not in Anna's book, but found through additional research). They do have a different hunting style, much more of a wait for the perfect moment and then assassinate compared to a high speed chase, but they will chase as well, though they do fly much slower.Hi Daniel,
I am familiar with what most raptors hunt naturally, as most falconers that have been practicing for 45 years are, but we are talking falconry here. Most Redtails left to there own divises will hunt mainly voles, mice, snakes and such, nothing very impressive. In the right hands, in sport they will' bulldog down' white tailed Jacks that weigh 3x there weight, in hard, fast, long flights, some going for over a 1/2 mile, and taking multiple head of quarry in a single outing. Same with the Harris' and Gos. The evidence is all over, including here on NAFEX.

There are only a handful of exceptional cases that I am aware of where Great Horned, Eagle Owls or Snowys have been documented doing anything like this, with any truely formidible falconry quarry. If the Owls are truely contenders for anything more than a Harry Potter fantasty, with only the exceptional, occasional specimen taking wild quarry, in a generally unimpressive style, like dropping off of a pole or tree, on to an unsuspecting vole or rat, ect., I would truely like to be educated. So if there are indeed falconers out there that have great game catching Owls, or if you know of someone, perhaps you could get stories and pics...full accounts, so I can be brought out of the dark. I have known several very capable falconers over the years that have tried GHOs but none that have taken more than a very occasional lack luster flight at easy quarry. Please... If you got em post em.

Breeze
01-21-2016, 11:25 AM
Again, viewing hunting as a numbers game. Hunting with nocturnals, I would imagine is going to be very different from other raptors. Their entire mentality is apparently different from other raptors, so shouldn't be expected to react the same. IF a person is content flying a GHO (for example) and knowing very little game will be taken and don't expect mind boggling flights, then more power to those people. The challenge, it would seem, is in getting that bird to work WITH them, be responsive, follow on, etc. and a few kills along the way is sufficient.

I know my RTH is very capable of taking multiple kills in a day. I don't go for multiples. Toyed with the idea, especially when a kill is made within minutes of starting a hunt, but decided against it. One kill is fine - and we go home safely, to hunt another day. That's simply MY viewpoint on the subject. The number of kills he makes doesn't make a difference to me. That he IS killing and doing so regularly does, and that he be out flying/hunting a LOT does. But that's just my personal viewpoint on the matter. Many falconers work to gain big kill numbers. Nothing wrong with that, just not my cup of tea.

I doubt I'll ever fly a nocturnal, but do understand why some people would want to - regardless of the fact that the bird may never rack up lots of kills. Different ways of viewing things is all.

JRedig
01-21-2016, 12:42 PM
They do have a different hunting style, much more of a wait for the perfect moment and then assassinate compared to a high speed chase, but they will chase as well, though they do fly much slower.

Tell that to the female GHO that flew down and killed my very fit tiercel finnish gos in open flight...made him look VERY VERY slow.

vampdragon
01-21-2016, 12:53 PM
Hi Daniel,
I am familiar with what most raptors hunt naturally, as most falconers that have been practicing for 45 years are, but we are talking falconry here. Most Redtails left to there own divises will hunt mainly voles, mice, snakes and such, nothing very impressive. In the right hands, in sport they will' bulldog down' white tailed Jacks that weigh 3x there weight, in hard, fast, long flights, some going for over a 1/2 mile, and taking multiple head of quarry in a single outing. Same with the Harris' and Gos. The evidence is all over, including here on NAFEX.

There are only a handful of exceptional cases that I am aware of where Great Horned, Eagle Owls or Snowys have been documented doing anything like this, with any truely formidible falconry quarry. If the Owls are truely contenders for anything more than a Harry Potter fantasty, with only the exceptional, occasional specimen taking wild quarry, in a generally unimpressive style, like dropping off of a pole or tree, on to an unsuspecting vole or rat, ect., I would truely like to be educated. So if there are indeed falconers out there that have great game catching Owls, or if you know of someone, perhaps you could get stories and pics...full accounts, so I can be brought out of the dark. I have known several very capable falconers over the years that have tried GHOs but none that have taken more than a very occasional lack luster flight at easy quarry. Please... If you got em post em.

Hi Jeff,

What your explaining is going along with what I was saying earlier, finding the hunting style you like. You are correct, I don't see, or know of anyone who has had an owl sky out, and take prey that is 300 yards, a mile, or 2 miles away. That is not their hunting style. If that is the type of hunt that excites you, and I have come across a number of falconers with your experience that this is true, then owls will never been something you will be happy with.

Personally, I'm in falconry for the hunt in general and for the chance to be a part of the hunt with a bird of prey. I'm just as happy if I stir up a rat in a nest at the base of a tree and my Red Tail, or I hope soon my GHO, falls out of the tree on the rat, or chases a cotton tail for 50 yards, 100 yards or 200 yards.

As to your question do I know anyone who hunts with owls on a regular basis, I only know of one that I know for sure, the author of the book which started this whole conversation. She has explained a number of hunts to me, and has a few pictures of one of her snowy owls missing a bunny but "this much" on her FB account. My sponsor also hunted with a GHO for a few years, taking rats, and I know of a few others. As you mentioned though, Owls have generally been a disappointment for most falconers who have tried them. However, I believe that this is because they tried to make them hunt in a style that does not fit them, (trying to dogfight against a MiG 29 with a B-52)

vampdragon
01-21-2016, 12:56 PM
Tell that to the female GHO that flew down and killed my very fit tiercel finnish gos in open flight...made him look VERY VERY slow.

I'm sorry to hear about your Tiercel Finnish Gos. It doesn't surprise me that they can't pour on the speed when they want too, especially when a female weighing in at 1,500 to 1,800 grams lets gravity work for them, but generally, they use a very light wing loading to fly slow, at least when normal flight speeds are compared.

Breeze
01-21-2016, 01:12 PM
Personally, I'm in falconry for the hunt in general and for the chance to be a part of the hunt with a bird of prey. I'm just as happy if I stir up a rat in a nest at the base of a tree and my Red Tail, or I hope soon my GHO, falls out of the tree on the rat, or chases a cotton tail for 50 yards, 100 yards or 200 yards.

We think alike, in this regard, Daniel. My primary goal is to put him on grey squirrels. But Breeze has taken fox squirrels, flying squirrels, cotton rats, a bullfrog, swamp rabbit, and cottontails. Anything other than a grey squirrel is "misc" in my mind, but it's still fine. Whatever he finds to kill out there is great! Has even taken a mouse or two over the years . . . the one exception to my rule of one kill though. :D After a mouse - or vole - we continue on. ;)

rkumetz
01-21-2016, 02:35 PM
Hi Jeff,

What your explaining is going along with what I was saying earlier, finding the hunting style you like. You are correct, I don't see, or know of anyone who has had an owl sky out, and take prey that is 300 yards, a mile, or 2 miles away. That is not their hunting style. If that is the type of hunt that excites you, and I have come across a number of falconers with your experience that this is true, then owls will never been something you will be happy with.

Personally, I'm in falconry for the hunt in general and for the chance to be a part of the hunt with a bird of prey. I'm just as happy if I stir up a rat in a nest at the base of a tree and my Red Tail, or I hope soon my GHO, falls out of the tree on the rat, or chases a cotton tail for 50 yards, 100 yards or 200 yards.

As to your question do I know anyone who hunts with owls on a regular basis, I only know of one that I know for sure, the author of the book which started this whole conversation. She has explained a number of hunts to me, and has a few pictures of one of her snowy owls missing a bunny but "this much" on her FB account. My sponsor also hunted with a GHO for a few years, taking rats, and I know of a few others. As you mentioned though, Owls have generally been a disappointment for most falconers who have tried them. However, I believe that this is because they tried to make them hunt in a style that does not fit them, (trying to dogfight against a MiG 29 with a B-52)

BTW if you don't do your hawking from horseback wearing tight ass jodhpur pants, a jacket and funny hat while your cadge boy runs along beside you then you are not a real falconer anyway..... frus)

BestBeagler
01-21-2016, 02:46 PM
BTW if you don't do your hawking from horseback wearing tight ass jodhpur pants, a jacket and funny hat while your cadge boy runs along beside you then you are not a real falconer anyway..... frus)

I'm concerned you know the name of those pants Ron... In fact your description sounds a little like a rehearsed fantasy to be honest.

rkumetz
01-21-2016, 02:51 PM
I'm concerned you know the name of those pants Ron... In fact your description sounds a little like a rehearsed fantasy to be honest.

In my own defense:
1. My ex wife was a horse person.
2. I am tremendously amused by snobbery of any sort.

BestBeagler
01-21-2016, 02:55 PM
In my own defense:
1. My ex wife was a horse person.
2. I am tremendously amused by snobbery of any sort.

I just won't go near you when you're carrying your horse whip if we ever meet...

OATS
01-21-2016, 08:04 PM
Tell that to the female GHO that flew down and killed my very fit tiercel finnish gos in open flight...made him look VERY VERY slow.

Jeff, I've never heard of anything like that before out of a GHO. I'd be interested to know more about it as there are plenty of owls around here.

JRedig
01-21-2016, 10:54 PM
Jeff, I've never heard of anything like that before out of a GHO. I'd be interested to know more about it as there are plenty of owls around here.

Back in 2008 (i think) had a hand-me-down gos on loan from Greg Mikkelson. He was 5 or 6 years old, very accomplished bird. Lots of photo's and stories on here about Howie. I had him about 6 weeks and greg had been flying him for a couple months prior. During that time I had been doing a lot of weighted leash jumps and restrained pursuits while duck and rabbit hawking him in MN. I went to visit Bob Berry in Sheridan, WY and took him along. We flew him on the first day and launched him out the car window at some sharptails! He missed and they blew his doors off. Next day we tried the same but the grouse were wise. Got a rooster pheasant slip off a point, went over 300 yards into a nice CRP field, saw him tackle the rooster in the bino's as it was putting in. Bob was impressed with his determination!

Walked over there and had telemetry out to help, grass was knee high and fairly thick. As I got within 100 yards, saw a bird come in and put in near where howie had taken the rooster. Couldn't tell immediately what it was, just big sihlouette as it was late in the day. Howie came up out of the grass and so did the other bird. It was the GHO. She motored him down within 50-60 yards and took him down into the grass. I ran in there, she spooked when i got close and carried him a few hundred yards. This repeated itself for 15-20 minutes until she finally dropped his body. I carried him back to the car in tears, bob and my wife thought I had howie with a pheasant as I approached, no idea what had happened. As of today, it's tied for the 2nd worst day of my falconry career. Worst phone call i've ever had to make to tell Greg his best ever bird was dead. At least he went out with his boots on.

OATS
01-22-2016, 10:55 PM
Jeff, most of us have had one or more of those very tough days to one degree or another and can relate to them. Thanks for dredging that up and sharing it. As you described what happened I had a thought; do you think the gos was injured while on the ground during the owl's initial approach, broke loose, and then was overtaken in flight due to being wounded/handicapped? Or, do you think he was just flat run down in fair flight by a stronger flying bird? Having flown many goshawk's over the years and seeing the speed and maneuverability they are capable of I'm having a hard time understanding how a gos could be run down and caught by a GHO. I'm not doubting anything you have said, I'm just trying learn more about the limits of owls. I fly my birds in GHO country 100% of the time. Thanks.

JRedig
01-23-2016, 12:48 AM
Very possible Eric, never really thought about it. He was up and out of there pretty quick, but all it takes is one grab. It was late jan or early feb, so the time when they are territorial and it was quite late in the evening.

I just took it for granted, bigger bird, bigger motor. She had no problem carrying his body off, he only flew about 680 grams on his heaviest days.

Betelgeuse
01-23-2016, 12:53 AM
Three years ago Anna wrote on a thread here that she was coming to the USA and would like to meet some Falconers, and watch their birds fly. I responded, and also a friend lived nearby came out. Anna had her sister drive her to a meeting place where she was able to watch some of our falcons be flown. We had nice discussions about owls and training them, which seemed foreign to me. She had great knowledge of owl behavior, and has trained many owls to hunt successfully, besides breeding different species of owls in captivity. After meeting we wrote back and forth for quite a while and I was quite impressed with her knowledge and experience with owls. They are a whole different world. Probably one of the most knowledgeable and experienced owl handler in the world. She has pretty much dedicated her life to living and learning about owls. I haven't read her book, but if I was to deal with owls, and needed some advice or help, Anna would be the first person I would call! Besides the fact that she is a lovely human being who is quite kind and patient.

If a person is thinking of picking up a book about owl disposition, this post is a qualified review of the author's competency.

bdyelm
01-23-2016, 01:26 AM
1. My ex wife was a horse person.

If you marry a centaur, how do you think your marriage will end? :Dpeacee

rkumetz
01-23-2016, 09:38 AM
If you marry a centaur, how do you think your marriage will end? :Dpeacee

Touche' ! That is wise-assery worthy of ME!

Worse than you would expect, actually....frus)

OATS
01-24-2016, 02:23 AM
Very possible Eric, never really thought about it. He was up and out of there pretty quick, but all it takes is one grab. It was late jan or early feb, so the time when they are territorial and it was quite late in the evening.

I just took it for granted, bigger bird, bigger motor. She had no problem carrying his body off, he only flew about 680 grams on his heaviest days.

Jeff, doesn't surprise me at all a female GHO could loft a tiercel gos, as we've seen kill sites around here where a great horn had hauled a snowshoe hare to the top of a spouse tree and eaten it. Pretty impressive carry. Thanks again for the info.

rkumetz
01-24-2016, 08:23 AM
Jeff, doesn't surprise me at all a female GHO could loft a tiercel gos, as we've seen kill sites around here where a great horn had hauled a snowshoe hare to the top of a spouse tree and eaten it. Pretty impressive carry. Thanks again for the info.


My wife informs me that spouses, like money, do not grown on trees.

Breeze
01-24-2016, 10:06 AM
Jeff, doesn't surprise me at all a female GHO could loft a tiercel gos, as we've seen kill sites around here where a great horn had hauled a snowshoe hare to the top of a spouse tree and eaten it. Pretty impressive carry. Thanks again for the info.

Interesting, Eric! Knew they were strong, but never would have dreamed what you described to be possible. Awesome!

OATS
01-24-2016, 04:39 PM
My wife informs me that spouses, like money, do not grown on trees.

Nice one Ron! Whether it happened that way or not, I'm going to blame it on autocorrect crazyy. Eating spouses, funny stuff.... Spruce tree was the intent, carry on.

joekoz
01-24-2016, 07:48 PM
Interesting, Eric! Knew they were strong, but never would have dreamed what you described to be possible. Awesome!

Several years ago I had a Great Horned Owl who would regularly roost on a branch of a very large oak tree that extended over my paved driveway. Most of the time the evidence was in the form of very large mutes left behind on the drive. Then one day I was walking down the drive only to find the head of a very large opossum beneath where the GHO roosted. They're incredibly strong/powerful birds.