New Product Announcement: GPS

[JRedig]

My apologies to Robert and Marshall for the original post accidentally getting deleted. Was trying to merge some topics and they both disappeared. confusedd

Here is the video, please get the thread and questions going again.

https://vimeo.com/129807173

129807173

How long will battery life be?

[Ron Clarke]

When will they be available and how can I get one? Or eight?

[Saluqi]

This is what is says on the Marshall Facebook page:

Sending a big thanks out to all our customers who have been patiently waiting for this day over many years.
This now is for you, the visual confirmation, no longer just a rumor: RT-GPS, PocketLink and AeroVision mapping app: $995.
Pre-Orders to begin July 1st with deliveries planned for early September.
(Look for follow on video in 3-4 weeks to answer your natural questions on the details)
https://vimeo.com/129807173

[RLBagley]

In reading down through the comments that have been coming in, I thought it would help to get some initial answers to the most frequent questions sooner than later. The plan is to upload a video in a few weeks that better explains the product, it's design, how it works, etc.

Until then, here's a few answers for you:

How does it work?
The RT-GPS transmitter is the same size, shape and weight of an RT Turbo. But inside we found a way to incorporate a GPS chip to receive signals from the overhead constellation of GPS satellites in an open sky.

The RT-GPS learns where it is and sends this data via radio frequency to a small device we call the PocketLink. It is the PocketLink that in turn provides this situational data it is receiving on to the mapping software via BlueTooth at distances of up to fifty feet away. It can use a small whip antenna to go with you (in your pocket or hawking bag) or be left in the vehicle connected to your OMNI.

At the same time, the RT-GPS is sending a regular familiar beeping signal in the UHF band that can be received by the Field Marshall for regular direction-finding.

It is this combination of signal redundancy we felt important for falconers to be sure that if the data connection is ever temporarily lost, they still can track a bird the traditional way.

How long does the battery run?
We have worked out an extremely innovative way to use the 1/3N battery instead of requiring something much larger. That was always the goal before announcing our GPS alternative. It had to be “right sized” in the time tested robust packaging required by our customers and usable as a tail or leg mount, not restricted to TrackPack mounting only.

The RT-GPS will run for three days using a variable duty cycle combination of data transmissions and beeping.

How much will it cost, and what do we get?
For our customers who have have already made the jump to UHF, you simply add the following items to your setup:
- RT-GPS transmitter
- PocketLink Data Receiver
- Marshall Radio’s mapping software application to run on your iOS device

These three add-ons are priced at: $995

For customers who have do not yet have UHF gear, you’ll also need:
- Field Marshall UHF receiver
- UHF Omni for the vehicle
- UHF Micro tail-mount (recommended as the secondary backup transmitter)

These two lists constitute the complete and redundant system.

Will it work on something other than iOS devices?
The initial software application is designed for iPad, iPad mini, and iPhone.

Plans are for an Android version sometime soon after.

Will it work with my 216 receiver?
There are no plans to broadcast data in the legacy VHF bands, since all momentum around the world is to UHF going forward.

What is the range?
Over 5-6 months of field testing, we have maintained data streaming connections for 3-4 miles on the ground, and 10-15 in the air. Since this is designed to be primarily a real-time visual product, ideal for training, that has proven about perfect.

For the beeping signal at any time, or when you are “Plan B Mode,” you will see about the same performance as one of our RT+ transmitters.

How is this different from the other GPS devices for falconry already out there?
Three main ways, in combination:
- The size less than half and we’re using the reliable proven 1/3N lithium 3v battery, not a rechargeable.

- The method is a direct connection, not through mobile towers, so that this can be used anywhere without fear of “dead zones.” There is no SIM card to buy, no further costs per text requests, etc. required to operate it.

- Instead of periodic updates, or delayed and irregular response to text inquiries this is real-time data streaming. You see where you bird is now, not where it was.
Our own world-class mapping application that comes with it.

How much testing has it had?
Early designs have been in testing for years, but this right-size version was first flown in January 2015, and continuously on several falcons and eagle ever since then. We’ve been able to fine tune what are essential functions and data in the mapping software, as well as experience real-world performance issues away from the lab. Of the two epic tracks you see in the video, the first was a remount on ducks flight by our passage Prairie falcon with two pitches over 3,000 feet, the second is the eagle soaring on thermals to over one mile high (5,400 feet).

Continual refinements were regularly done to the point we finally felt confident to let the world know it really exists and we are really going to do it. It’s that good now.

And what quickly changed was our realization that for so many years as a company we have been narrowly focused on just a recovery device so the design concerns were always and ever more range, with ever more battery life in a smaller size. The RT-GPS transcends this thinking to become an entirely different product since you are continuously connected to the flight in real-time.

We really do now think it changes everything.

[thunderheartiii]

At that cost you'd need a "LIFETIME WARRANTY" against everything to include loss...When is somebody gonna make affordable equipment for falconry? Not saying $995 isn't worth it, but at that price I hope they are not planning on selling to many of them... JMHO

[RLBagley]

Well, fortunately, there are already a lot of other inexpensive options out there to choose from, and you can continue as you are.

I guess nearly every product needs to be priced according to is value to the user, and when that's exceeded, or an even better option comes along, products cease to sell.

Yes, this may not be for everybody.

And yet somehow, I think most everybody (at least longwingers) will eventually have it. Otherwise, we would not have spent the large amount of capital and effort to produce it.

RB

[thunderheartiii]

RB,

Not saying this is not going to be worth every penny...but will be years out before I can afford one.

I'll just stick with the "Marshall" stuff I already use :) Thanks for making the best most reliable stuff on the market.

[Ron Clarke]

Thanks for the FAQs, Robert. The thing that appeals most to me is instead of relying on line-of-sight signals that get warped and reflected by terrain and other ground-based disruptions, with this system the signal goes straight up to a satellite and comes straight back down, with nothing in the way. For someone like me who's flown mostly in mountainous country loaded with signal shadows, weird bouncebacks, and dead spots, this is a dream come true. Am I understanding this system's capacities correctly?

[rkumetz]

Thanks for the FAQs, Robert. The thing that appeals most to me is instead of relying on line-of-sight signals that get warped and reflected by terrain and other ground-based disruptions, with this system the signal goes straight up to a satellite and comes straight back down, with nothing in the way. For someone like me who's flown mostly in mountainous country loaded with signal shadows, weird bouncebacks, and dead spots, this is a dream come true. Am I understanding this system's capacities correctly?

Ron.
I think there may be some confusion as to how satellites are involved.

The unit on the bird (GPS receiver + UHF Transmitter) RECEIVES signals from a number of different satellites. It is able to use the incoming signals to mathematically determine where it is with respect to the location of those satellites. That gives it your latitude, longitude and altitude.

The position data is then transmitted via the UHF link directly to your receiver.

So in part you are right. The position of the bird IS determined by the "direct from the satellite" transmissions.

That position information is NOT however transmitted to you via satellite as it would be with an Argos tag. The signal goes direct from the transmitter on the bird to the MRT receiver.

Hope that helps.
Ron

[goshawkr]

Will it work on something other than iOS devices?
The initial software application is designed for iPad, iPad mini, and iPhone.

Plans are for an Android version sometime soon after.


I think there are only 4 falconers, besides myself, using Windows Phones - but there are plenty of us with Windows desktops and windows based tablets. There are very simple development tools to port any iOS/Android application over. So simple in fact, that my standard response when I see apps for iOS/Android my response is "Am I not worth 15 minutes of your time?" (the time cost to do the build, once the tools are installed).

I think this looks like a great product. Great innovation. As a shortwinger, I'll just have to wait for a lower cost alternative, but I look forward to that a few years down the road. I'd love to be able to drive up and pick up my hawk instead of wandering through industrial areas with a receiver. However, since I typically pull out my receiver less than 5 times a year other than to verify its operation, its tough to justify a 2 grand conversion.

Which brings me to a question - any plans to make a GPS/Scout? I don't need the range of an RT plus, instead I need the long battery life of a scout.

[rkumetz]

I think there are only 4 falconers, besides myself, using Windows Phones - but there are plenty of us with Windows desktops and windows based tablets. There are very simple development tools to port any iOS/Android application over. So simple in fact, that my standard response when I see apps for iOS/Android my response is "Am I not worth 15 minutes of your time?" (the time cost to do the build, once the tools are installed).

Which brings me to a question - any plans to make a GPS/Scout? I don't need the range of an RT plus, instead I need the long battery life of a scout.

Kinda harsh don't you think? :D

He didn't say that they wouldn't do a WIN version. Just that they have iOS now and Android soon. The assumption being that if they say it will be available that they have started work or have done enough to safely say it will exist.

I would think that the cost difference of a UHF scout vs RT once you incorporate the extra GPS hardware would be minimal. In addition, you no longer have a very simply ON/OFF modulated signal. You are now sending data which has a higher bandwidth requirement so you will need extra power to give you decent range. That is where some of the battery life is going.

If it makes you feel better I don't have an iOS, Android OR Win phone. I have a clamshell that makes phone calls. So there are even less like me who did not buy their phone from the TV commercial selling phones to old people.

[DtRooster]

I think this looks like a great product. Great innovation. As a shortwinger, I'll just have to wait for a lower cost alternative, but I look forward to that a few years down the road. I'd love to be able to drive up and pick up my hawk instead of wandering through industrial areas with a receiver. However, since I typically pull out my receiver less than 5 times a year other than to verify its operation, its tough to justify a 2 grand conversion. true that, nice for those that can justify truly using it

[rkumetz]

At that cost you'd need a "LIFETIME WARRANTY" against everything to include loss...When is somebody gonna make affordable equipment for falconry? Not saying $995 isn't worth it, but at that price I hope they are not planning on selling to many of them... JMHO

Right now the cheapest alternatives that you can buy new are an R400 receiver for $499 and a Merlin FMV transmitter for $105 bringing the total to $604. I may be off by a little but that is what I quickly found by searching the "big three" falconry stores.

For that price you get a 216 system that only has a 2 element yagi and a transmitter that has its battery held in with heat shrink tubing. For $391 more you get a modern sealed UHF transmitter that has GPS AND a conventional "beep".

I have a job and bills too. But working in broadcast electronics and communications industry all of my life I also see the flip side of the coin. You are not just paying for the materials an labor to assemble the system.
You ARE paying for the cost of the engineering talent necessary to develop such a system. Companies have to pay for that above and beyond the cost of production if they want to keep abreast of changing technology.

[goshawkr]

Kinda harsh don't you think? :D

He didn't say that they wouldn't do a WIN version. Just that they have iOS now and Android soon. The assumption being that if they say it will be available that they have started work or have done enough to safely say it will exist.

I would think that the cost difference of a UHF scout vs RT once you incorporate the extra GPS hardware would be minimal. In addition, you no longer have a very simply ON/OFF modulated signal. You are now sending data which has a higher bandwidth requirement so you will need extra power to give you decent range. That is where some of the battery life is going.

If it makes you feel better I don't have an iOS, Android OR Win phone. I have a clamshell that makes phone calls. So there are even less like me who did not buy their phone from the TV commercial selling phones to old people.

I am a professional programmer - I do that work all the time. If there were plans for a Win version, its usually mentioned. I am just giving the feed back from a possible customer. Of course, it would be silly for Marshall to invest that 15 minutes for just me, since this product is too expensive for me to realize value from the investment just now. However, one of the other falconers with a Win phone IS a hardcore longwinger, easily the most hardcore one in Washington.

I know what where the battery power is going. But let me put things in perspective.

I currently use a scout transmitter. I had Marshall tune it down as far was the could in terms of beeps per minute, and I still think the thing is turned up to far. Its always in "Apollo 13 mode", and its even slower with its beeps than their off the shelf Apollo 13 mode. I go through 3 batteries a year. I was not joking when I said its rare for me to use the receiver 5 times a season. And to even reach that number I am usually helping a pal find a wayward hawk. My receiver is only on to prove it works before the flight.

Now as a programmer and innovator - I can absolutely see the game change that Robert was describing in how this tool will help rethink the game. Actually, if the GPS resolution is tight enough, I just might use it more often to confirm which @#$% tree my hawk is in rather than relying on intuition and "being one with the hawk". I can also come up with some real fun applications for this - like long term logging while my new goshawk is at hawk in my backyard.

I can absolutely think back on several of my frustrating tracking occaisions going much more smoothely with this. It would also peel the reluctance off of doing some world class stuff - like flying goshawks in goshawk woods at goshawk prey miles from the road....

This is really cool stuff - and I do look forward to the day when I can justify jumping into it.

[Tanner]

Hi Robert,

Is the antenna length the same as for a standard RT UHF?

Thanks,
Tanner

[BestBeagler]

So you need to get an ipad as well to get the full working affect of this system. In order for this all to work I also need to be within 50 feet from the Pocketlink which I can have on my person. How big is the Pocketlink and what are it's specifications? You don't need a data service from a phone company for this to work I am guessing.

GPS signals come and go with cloud cover and in thick forests etc. so how does this system do in overcoming these problems? Is it still pretty reliable? Naturally, you can rely UHF which is neat.

Very exciting stuff.

[rkumetz]

Right now the cheapest alternatives that you can buy new are an R400 receiver for $499 and a Merlin FMV transmitter for $105 bringing the total to $604. I may be off by a little but that is what I quickly found by searching the "big three" falconry stores.

For that price you get a 216 system that only has a 2 element yagi and a transmitter that has its battery held in with heat shrink tubing. For $391 more you get a modern sealed UHF transmitter that has GPS AND a conventional "beep".

I have a job and bills too. But working in broadcast electronics and communications industry all of my life I also see the flip side of the coin. You are not just paying for the materials an labor to assemble the system.
You ARE paying for the cost of the engineering talent necessary to develop such a system. Companies have to pay for that above and beyond the cost of production if they want to keep abreast of changing technology.


Jim,
After re-reading your post I may have, err, well, come down a bit hard on you. While everything I said is true, what you said may not have deserved the rant. Particularly after your answer to Robert's reply. Sorry if I was a bit abrupt.

Ron

[rrcoati]

Robert

I am a youngster to the sport and this is expensive,but holly shit it's awesome. I will turn in my recycling and eat potatoes for as long as necessary. Flying a cast with this transmitter changes everything.
I alway sit and dwell on the flight sometimes I don't see it all. This would be a game changer for me. To be able to log flights and see how the birds flew with respect to eac other, is like going from analog to digital.

I have two questions
1) if you pay them $995 for one transmitter what would be needed to fly two birds simultaneously, anther $995. Would there be some redundancy.
2) has marshall ever considered incorporating a key chain camera into a transmitter, or at the very least making a camera that fits on the Trac Pack.

Thank you for providing excellent products and support. Please continue with the R&D and keep pushing the envelope.

[Captain Gizmo]

Engineering is generally about making compromises to try and best fit the task with the available technology. "You can have all you want of everything all the time" is generally restricted to politicians making campaign speeches.

The GPS satellite system is a download only data path. Acquiring the GPS position at the tag is essentially trivial. The problem comes in how you transfer the data from the tag on the raptor to the receiver at the falconer.

At this point there are two uses under discussion for a GPS locator tag.

The traditional use is long distance recovery. In Europe this is well suited to cell phone based links. You get a location on the hawk any time both the hawk and the falconer have coverage, which in Europe is almost everywhere.Cell phone coverage at both ends of everywhere is not true for North America. Lag times of a minute or two while text/SMS messages are exchanged are no real problem. Real time via a "phone call" format is possible, but "talk time" eats the battery in a hurry.

The new use of GPS locating is as a convenience/flight management tool. A direct radio link from the tag to the receiver is the better choice for real time data. The range limitation (per MRT about 3 miles down and dirty, 15 miles line of sight) is a trade off for data with a lag time in seconds rather than minutes. Battery drain for direct radio link data is moderate compared to cell phone talk time. For a given power level data can not be transmitted as far as a simple radio beep. Per Ron Clarke's question all the problems of signal being blocked or lost continue. Reflections become a non-issue. The hawk's location is contained in the data, the receiver does not care what direction the signal came from.

On the various GPS websites long distance recovery is given it's due. The "buzz" is about the convenience feature.

Marshall has chosen to go with a direct radio link, which is better suited to the convenience mode and possibly better suited to North America. They have chosen a primary battery, which is lighter than a rechargeable battery. They have chosen a smaller battery, accepting a 3 day run time as the trade off. They are the first to break the 10 gram barrier. They have included the old time radio beep, so that when the signal path becomes too long to move data you still have your ears as a back up plan.

It is up to you to decide if their choices fit your uses.

[dliepe]

Well, fortunately, there are already a lot of other inexpensive options out there to choose from, and you can continue as you are.

I guess nearly every product needs to be priced according to is value to the user, and when that's exceeded, or an even better option comes along, products cease to sell.

Yes, this may not be for everybody.

And yet somehow, I think most everybody (at least longwingers) will eventually have it. Otherwise, we would not have spent the large amount of capital and effort to produce it.

RB

To those of us who flys big longwings and push the envelope for huge pitches
and dramatic stoops the benefits are crystal clear. The investment is trivial when you take into account the effort and years involved in shaping flight style to what you want to see.. So much hit or miss guesswork involved when a bird is off or too high to see or both. This eliminates that guesswork. Now you know for certain which situations you shouldn't reward. To be able to map real time your birds performance in so many ways is truly amazing.
The tracking aspect seems secondary but I can already see how it will make it so much easier to find your birds.. Just get in the ballpark with the beeper and then turn on GPS. Wicked!
The greatest benefit to me is the fact that now the reigns can be loosened even further. You know now how much quicker you can get to your bird.
With the GPS the ground recoverys in deep cover and hilly terrain, like the Sandhills and much of the west, become a breeze. Anyone who has hawked out there has lost signal when the falcon is in a deep depression. With GPS shooting vertically won't this eliminate this type of problem? Am I misunderstanding?
I am a simpleton after all.

[rkumetz]

One thing that the direct link preserves is your ability to move around with the receiver (including using an aircraft) to get a signal. As an improvement if you bird sits down somewhere you just need to get one complete data packet to figure outwhere it is. With a cellular based system that is not an option because you can't move cell sites. New options are opened such as putting a receiver on a UAV to gain height or even remotely search for a bird in inaccessible areas. Sure, a drone is not cheap but renting a plane and pilot can't be done with your spare change either.

[rkumetz]

To those of us who flys big longwings and push the envelope for huge pitches
and dramatic stoops the benefits are crystal clear. The investment is trivial when you take into account the effort and years involved in shaping flight style to what you want to see.. So much hit or miss guesswork involved when a bird is off or too high to see or both. This eliminates that guesswork. Now you know for certain which situations you shouldn't reward. To be able to map real time your birds performance in so many ways is truly amazing.
The tracking aspect seems secondary but I can already see how it will make it so much easier to find your birds.. Just get in the ballpark with the beeper and then turn on GPS. Wicked!
The greatest benefit to me is the fact that now the reigns can be loosened even further. You know now how much quicker you can get to your bird.
With the GPS the ground recoverys in deep cover and hilly terrain, like the Sandhills and much of the west, become a breeze. Anyone who has hawked out there has lost signal when the falcon is in a deep depression. With GPS shooting vertically won't this eliminate this type of problem? Am I misunderstanding?
I am a simpleton after all.

See my reply (#9) to Ron's post below.

[Captain Gizmo]

With a direct radio link on a GPS tag you are in the same situation as with a simple beeper, except that the same power at the transmitter gets 1/2 to 1/3 the range. All the same tactics to receive a weak signal still apply.

1. Get the receive antenna up.
A. Stand on the top of your truck and hold the receiver up.
B. Better yet add a broom pole or a couple 5 foot sections of PVC pipe.
C. Since the Marshal link receiver is a stand alone device you can put it on a pole or even hang it from your balloon or kite or haul it aloft with your quadcopter (within the limits of of the range of the Bluetooth to download to your iOS device).
D. Take the high ground. Head for the nearest or highest hill. Climb a stack of hay bales if that is the best available.
E. Rent an airplane.
2. Use a stronger receive antenna. there is no reason you can not feed your link receiver from your Yagi antenna, with resulting improved range.
3. You will get the beeper after you have lost the data link. As suggested below follow the beeper until your data link picks up another fix. A spare Yagi or Quad directional antenna would allow maximum range on both at once. Means to get your receive antennas as high above ground as practical still apply.

[Heero]

Right now the cheapest alternatives that you can buy new are an R400 receiver for $499 and a Merlin FMV transmitter for $105 bringing the total to $604. I may be off by a little but that is what I quickly found by searching the "big three" falconry stores.

For that price you get a 216 system that only has a 2 element yagi and a transmitter that has its battery held in with heat shrink tubing. For $391 more you get a modern sealed UHF transmitter that has GPS AND a conventional "beep".

Its $995 if you already have the UHF receiver, no? So its more like $1100 more since a UHF receiver is going to run ya $700. And not including an iPad or iPhone if ya dont have one of them (I dont).

Just saying.




This looks really neat. Im happy I made the decision to go UHF when I bought my telemetry and Ill definitely add this stuff. Prob not right away but when I get into flying big falcons, for sure.

Really cool, guys at Marshall. Keep up the good work.

Mike

[Ross]

At that cost you'd need a "LIFETIME WARRANTY" against everything to include loss...When is somebody gonna make affordable equipment for falconry? Not saying $995 isn't worth it, but at that price I hope they are not planning on selling to many of them... JMHO

Telemetry seems very affordable to me now- having the newest state of the art- less so. You can still buy a basic set up from LL electronics or Merlin systems for not much more than I paid for my first set-up 30 years ago [when it was a struggle for me to buy]. These basic systems have improved over that time- they will still help you get your bird back in most situations. When many people upgraded to UHF there were some real bargains on used 216 set-ups. This looks like a game changer and I was pleasantly surprised to see you could up grade for about $1000. I expect there will be some more old 216 sets hit the resale market, a deal if you are budget conscious.

My original RB4 receiver still works. My first transmitter was deemed non repairable by LL after 28 years of service. I paid around $500 for the set-up in 1985. I believe I got my moneys worth and then some. I still carry an MN-10 receiver in the truck as a back-up should my Marshall fail. I am still using 216- with the field Marshall receiver and power max, RT+ and Scout transmitters. I am very satisfied with this equipment and have no immediate plans to go to UHF or GPS, but maybe someday. The MN-10 was an upgrade over the "blue box" and the Field Marshall an upgrade over the MN-10. Is the new newer equipment "worth it"? That is a budget question for everyone to answer for themselves. With the large number of used units regularly showing up for sale I can't see how anyone can complain about telemetry not being affordable.

I hope and expect that Marshall will sell a crap load of these. Maybe in a few years I will buy one as a bargain when people are jumping to the next big thing.

[thunderheartiii]

Jim,
After re-reading your post I may have, err, well, come down a bit hard on you. While everything I said is true, what you said may not have deserved the rant. Particularly after your answer to Robert's reply. Sorry if I was a bit abrupt.

Ron

No worries :)

[joekoz]

[QUOTE=Ross;353702]With the large number of used units regularly showing up for sale I can't see how anyone can complain about telemetry not being affordable. QUOTE]

BINGO! Marshall's investment in R&D just provided those who to date may have been unable to afford the cost of telemetry with an early Christmas Present by significantly increasing the amount of available used VHF equipment thereby resulting in a more competitive market offering lower prices.

[rkumetz]

Its $995 if you already have the UHF receiver, no? So its more like $1100 more since a UHF receiver is going to run ya $700. And not including an iPad or iPhone if ya dont have one of them (I dont).
e

I believe that the $995 includes the data receiver.

[Ducksanddogs]

Ron.
I think there may be some confusion as to how satellites are involved.

The unit on the bird (GPS receiver + UHF Transmitter) RECEIVES signals from a number of different satellites. It is able to use the incoming signals to mathematically determine where it is with respect to the location of those satellites. That gives it your latitude, longitude and altitude.

The position data is then transmitted via the UHF link directly to your receiver.

So in part you are right. The position of the bird IS determined by the "direct from the satellite" transmissions.

That position information is NOT however transmitted to you via satellite as it would be with an Argos tag. The signal goes direct from the transmitter on the bird to the MRT receiver.

Hope that helps.
Ron



What satellites are they using? What band? If I had a nickel for every time I've had to contact a satellite controller and alter some of the settings in our unit to maintain "green lights" I could probably go ahead and pre-order one of these.

Is there no concern with downlink interference? Are equatorial birds (satellites) being used? I won't bring up the laundry list of possible problems with equatorial only satellites...

Talk to us like we have years of satellite experience, because some of us do. I have a pretty firm understanding of how their UHF equipment works, I'm very interested in the technical aspects of their GPS addition.

I'm 100% on board with purchasing one of these units but I want to know more about the satcom aspect of it. Too many people hear satellite or GPS and just assume it's going to work all the time.

Kudos, Marshall, for turning the corner.

[sakerjack]

At that cost you'd need a "LIFETIME WARRANTY" against everything to include loss...When is somebody gonna make affordable equipment for falconry? Not saying $995 isn't worth it, but at that price I hope they are not planning on selling to many of them... JMHO

Sorry but after watching the video Marshall radio will sell a S""t load of them. Well done!!

[thunderheartiii]

Sorry but after watching the video Marshall radio will sell a S""t load of them. Well done!!

I hope they do...

[sakerjack]

Hey Jim it is well past my budget for what I can afford to spend. So it will be RT and scout transmitters for me.

[Tony James]

Hey Jim it is well past my budget for what I can afford to spend. So it will be RT and scout transmitters for me.

Hi Ken,

as you know, I'm not the type to get excited by gadgets and new technology, but I can hardly contain myself with this.
I think the interesting possibilities, as well as the practical ones, are endless.
And the fact that this is available in a standard transmitter sized package is quite amazing.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[rkumetz]

What satellites are they using? What band? If I had a nickel for every time I've had to contact a satellite controller and alter some of the settings in our unit to maintain "green lights" I could probably go ahead and pre-order one of these.

Is there no concern with downlink interference? Are equatorial birds (satellites) being used? I won't bring up the laundry list of possible problems with equatorial only satellites...

Talk to us like we have years of satellite experience, because some of us do. I have a pretty firm understanding of how their UHF equipment works, I'm very interested in the technical aspects of their GPS addition.

I'm 100% on board with purchasing one of these units but I want to know more about the satcom aspect of it. Too many people hear satellite or GPS and just assume it's going to work all the time.

Kudos, Marshall, for turning the corner.

They are not using the satellites for communications. They are using the same military gps satellites used by aircraft and auto gps maps.

[sakerjack]

Hi Ken,

as you know, I'm not the type to get excited by gadgets and new technology, but I can hardly contain myself with this.
I think the interesting possibilities, as well as the practical ones, are endless.
And the fact that this is available in a standard transmitter sized package is quite amazing.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Friggin agreed!!!

[rrcoati]

Can you use two at once?

[Captain Gizmo]

The Global Positioning System (GPS) is a location and navigation utility using a transmit only satellite constellation. This means that the user handset is a receive only device. The receiver listens to a set of 24 satellites (plus 12 "spares") in 55 deg. inclined orbits with 12 hour orbit times. Using the Time Difference Of Arrival (TDOA) of the signals from two satellites you can compute a line on the surface of the earth that meets that TDOA geometry. From a third satellite you compute another line. Where the two lines cross is where your receiver is located. From a fourth satellite you can compute altitude. The system is reliable as long as your receiver, in this case the locator tag on the hawk (Tag) has a clear view of the sky and can see a sufficient number of satellites. Inside a building, under a heavy forest canopy, and the old "she caught a rabbit inside a culvert" trick all block reception.

GPS is originally intended as a system to aid in killing people. It is robust and redundant. Military gear must be reliable. The military reserves the authority to scramble or "degrade" the signal. That authority has not been exercised to date.

Given a clear view of the sky acquiring the GPS position and altitude at the Tag is essentially trivial. The tough part is relaying that information from the Tag to the user. The two currently available methods are Cell Phone (GSM) and Direct Radio Link (DRL) to a dedicated user handset.

Uplink to a satellite is not available with current technology. The Argos satellite uplink used for wildlife studies (Island Girl) has a delay time of days to weeks and energy demands that make more than one report a day impractical. Argos air time is very expensive.

The advantage of GSM is location anywhere on the planet IF both the Tag and the user's cell phone have coverage. GSM is a TDMA phone protocol, which in North America means AT&T or T-Mobil. The state of Montana has zero TDMA phone service. The information goes via SMS or Text Message to your cell phone with the associated delay time for exchanging a pair of SMS packets. Requesting frequent updates burns the battery in a hurry.

DRL is best at real time (delay in seconds rather than minutes) and can support streaming data on a viable energy budget. For a given transmitter power data can travel 1/2 to 1/3 as far as a beep. DRL is better suited to the "convenience" mode but needs a Beep to back it up for longer range recovery mode. DRL has the same problems with dropping behind a hill as a Beep and the same solutions(get the receive antenna up high, use a Yagi). MRT is quoting 3 miles range down and dirty and 15 miles range line of sight.

So GSM is better at long range recovery (cell phone coverage allowing) and DRL is better at the convenience mode (radio propagation path allowing).
Use a back up Beep in both cases.

The Marshall and Martin systems are DRL, and require a dedicated receiver. In the case of the Marshal the receiver (Pocketlink) talks to your smart phone to give display function. The Martin appears to be an all in one receiver/display.
The ByMap and Ledesma systems are GSM and can use any TDMA smart phone as the user receiver/display.
The Microsensory Tag is both DRL and GSM. It requires a dedicated receiver/display in DRL mode.

[Ducksanddogs]

Excellent, thanks.

If they could only get it in a micro!

[Captain Gizmo]

The Martin Systems says "up to 16 falcons at once".

Any GPS Tag system that is cell phone based is unlimited, each Tag has it's own phone number. Sending an SMS and Receiving an SMS from multiple phone numbers may take a bit of time.

For a Direct Radio Link (DRL) system (Marshall, Martin, and Microsensory) it is just a matter of software. The dedicated receiver could use either separate frequencies for each Tag or the Tags could each have a digital identifier on their data packets.

As to doing real time graphic displays with multiple tracks on screen, again it is all software.

[Tim Jessell]

Inspired!

I think the "G"ps is for goosebumps .

[dliepe]

As if the sport wasn't fun enough already Tim!
This is going to be great!

[rkumetz]

Any GPS Tag system that is cell phone based is unlimited, each Tag has it's own phone number. Sending an SMS and Receiving an SMS from multiple phone numbers may take a bit of time.

For a Direct Radio Link (DRL) system (Marshall, Martin, and Microsensory)

Keep in mind that a GSM based system IS limited by your budget. The transmitter is essentially a cell phone so it needs to have a SIM card that is active whether it is prepaid or has a "plan". If you get a super cheap plan with a limit on messages then you may want to crank down the update rate a lot or you risk running out of messages on a prepaid SIM card before you get your bird back.

So that is another factor to ponder when deciding on a direct link vs GSM. There is no recurring cost on the direct link (other than batteries)

[Tony James]

As if the sport wasn't fun enough already Tim!
This is going to be great!

Hi David,

over the past couple of seasons I've seen two GPS systems in use, and this one adds even more to the mix.
As an aid to recovering a lost hawk it's a real step up from conventional telemetry, and to have all that and more contained within a standard transmitter unit is quite exceptional (I've been put off previously due to the size of the transmitter unit).
It's not just that recovering a hawk will become simpler, quicker, and safer, but we will now know at a glance whether a hawk is actually 'lost', in need of recovery, or simply that she is out of position, or out of sight, and working her way back. No more frustrating, perhaps dangerous delays while deciding whether to set off in search or not.
On top of all that, this mapping system, available after the event as well as during it, will enable us to learn so much about our hawk's flights and our management of them.
It will indeed be great.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[goshawkr]

Hi David,

over the past couple of seasons I've seen two GPS systems in use, and this one adds even more to the mix.
As an aid to recovering a lost hawk it's a real step up from conventional telemetry, and to have all that and more contained within a standard transmitter unit is quite exceptional (I've been put off previously due to the size of the transmitter unit).
It's not just that recovering a hawk will become simpler, quicker, and safer, but we will now know at a glance whether a hawk is actually 'lost', in need of recovery, or simply that she is out of position, or out of sight, and working her way back. No more frustrating, perhaps dangerous delays while deciding whether to set off in search or not.
On top of all that, this mapping system, available after the event as well as during it, will enable us to learn so much about our hawk's flights and our management of them.
It will indeed be great.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Ya, but its going to end all those physical brawls over whose falcon flies the highest. What fun is that? Longwing falconry as we know it is about to end.

[dliepe]

Hi David,

over the past couple of seasons I've seen two GPS systems in use, and this one adds even more to the mix.
As an aid to recovering a lost hawk it's a real step up from conventional telemetry, and to have all that and more contained within a standard transmitter unit is quite exceptional (I've been put off previously due to the size of the transmitter unit).
It's not just that recovering a hawk will become simpler, quicker, and safer, but we will now know at a glance whether a hawk is actually 'lost', in need of recovery, or simply that she is out of position, or out of sight, and working her way back. No more frustrating, perhaps dangerous delays while deciding whether to set off in search or not.
On top of all that, this mapping system, available after the event as well as during it, will enable us to learn so much about our hawk's flights and our management of them.
It will indeed be great.

Best wishes,

Tony.
Soooo much peace of mind with this new unit...Tony, you nailed every key point on why I'm so much looking forward to this.
For me it's sometimes hard to tell with a bird up high wether or not it's stopped working for height. I want to serve before thier pitch flatlines, especially with a young bird in training.. Nice to know when they take that giant outrun, exactly when they turn and wether or not they are ascending or descending on the way back. Best thing to come along in awhile.. Hope it lives up to all the hype.

[BestBeagler]

all the other GPS transmitters I have seen are HUGE. I would never put one on any bird other than an eagle maybe. They just look UGLY.

I would choose a small battery and short life span over a huge transmitter and a longer life. I see this as a VERY useful tool (not just a retrieval device) that will revolutionize longwinging (if it works as good as they say). I would also never use it as a solo unit and have a back up transmitter (forces me to do the right thing :) ) If it works as good as advertised I see it as worth every penny.

[jmnucci]

I think regardless of what GPS technology is available right now, or in Sept., now that Marshall has entered the market we will see all the advances we've been dreaming about come to fruition in the next few years. The competition got turned up a few notches.

[JRedig]

all the other GPS transmitters I have seen are HUGE. I would never put one on any bird other than an eagle maybe. They just look UGLY.

I would choose a small battery and short life span over a huge transmitter and a longer life. I see this as a VERY useful tool (not just a retrieval device) that will revolutionize longwinging (if it works as good as they say). I would also never use it as a solo unit and have a back up transmitter (forces me to do the right thing :) ) If it works as good as advertised I see it as worth every penny.

Which ones are huge? I've seen a few, size doesn't concern me, weight does.

[falcon56]

all the other GPS transmitters I have seen are HUGE. I would never put one on any bird other than an eagle maybe. They just look UGLY.

I would choose a small battery and short life span over a huge transmitter and a longer life. I see this as a VERY useful tool (not just a retrieval device) that will revolutionize longwinging (if it works as good as they say). I would also never use it as a solo unit and have a back up transmitter (forces me to do the right thing :) ) If it works as good as advertised I see it as worth every penny.

Issac,
Curious, how you perceive this unit is going to "revolutionize longwinging"? Granted one will be able to see a flight pattern on an I pad, I phone etc. know pretty precisely how fast, how high, where the bird went, but it will not at all change the manner in which a person flies a falcon or hawk, or how the bird flies. When you look at the meat and potatoes of flying any bird, one still does the same basic things, this GPS unit just adds information, won't make the way a bird flies any better or worse. If the argument is that one can better time a flush by looking on a screen to judge position, one will spend more time looking at the screen, than watching the bird fly, which personally is what gives me the enjoyment-watching the bird fly. This is a nice tool, but the only thing revolutionized will be how accurate the flight can be analyzed when the bird is back on the fist.

[BestBeagler]

Which ones are huge? I've seen a few, size doesn't concern me, weight does.

Ledesma, Microsensory, Bymaps, Martin Systems. Not saying they aren't safe, just too big for me to want to put on a bird of mine.

[BestBeagler]

Issac,
Curious, how you perceive this unit is going to "revolutionize longwinging"? Granted one will be able to see a flight pattern on an I pad, I phone etc. know pretty precisely how fast, how high, where the bird went, but it will not at all change the manner in which a person flies a falcon or hawk, or how the bird flies. When you look at the meat and potatoes of flying any bird, one still does the same basic things, this GPS unit just adds information, won't make the way a bird flies any better or worse. If the argument is that one can better time a flush by looking on a screen to judge position, one will spend more time looking at the screen, than watching the bird fly, which personally is what gives me the enjoyment-watching the bird fly. This is a nice tool, but the only thing revolutionized will be how accurate the flight can be analyzed when the bird is back on the fist.

Information is power. For someone like me living in a more enclosed terrain the revolutionizing affect is obvious. When I don't have a visual on a bird I will be able to tell what it's doing giving me peace of mind and "loosen" the reigns it will be an amazing tool. Is my bird turning around is it climbing back what is it doing all these things can now be known without even seeing the bird. I am sure as time goes on people will be able to use the data received in many ways.

Triangulating will not be as necessary that is cool in itself.

It would awesome if Marshall includes in the software an alarm that alerts you when you should flush obviously you pre-program when that alarm goes off so you don't have to be looking at the screen all the time. They could program multiple alarms so you know for example when the bird hits a maximum height that it was last and then one more alarm when it hits the extra height you are looking for.

[rkumetz]

It would awesome if Marshall includes in the software an alarm that alerts you when you should flush obviously you pre-program when that alarm goes off so you don't have to be looking at the screen all the time. They could program multiple alarms so you know for example when the bird hits a maximum height that it was last and then one more alarm when it hits the extra height you are looking for.

Other cool alarms would be if the bird ventures more than a certain distance from your location and if the bird goes more than a certain distance or time headed in the same direction. The latter sort of giving you the message that your bird may be headed for the horizon.

[falcon56]

Isaac,
I sort of understand what you're trying to get at here, but there's way too much you are hoping the unit is going to do for you. As an example, just because you know what a bird is "doing" by looking at a screen, doesn't put an invisible tether on it-it can still do whatever it is going to do, whether you can see it or not, loosening the reins comes from ones confidence in the bird and the persons' training of said bird. You may not agree, but all this is leading to losing basic field mechanics and how to orchestrate flying a bird. I hardly even want to address the flush alarm component(and I realize you are going way outside the box) if you need a machine to tell you when to flush properly, it really starts to go down the toilet. In your enclosed area, a bird high enough to be out of sight is impractical, so I assume you would/should have eyes on the bird the majority of the time to be effective at all, so how is this whole going to help? Sure won't make the flush any more successful if the bird is that high.

[BestBeagler]

Isaac,
I sort of understand what you're trying to get at here, but there's way too much you are hoping the unit is going to do for you. As an example, just because you know what a bird is "doing" by looking at a screen, doesn't put an invisible tether on it-it can still do whatever it is going to do, whether you can see it or not, loosening the reins comes from ones confidence in the bird and the persons' training of said bird. You may not agree, but all this is leading to losing basic field mechanics and how to orchestrate flying a bird. I hardly even want to address the flush alarm component(and I realize you are going way outside the box) if you need a machine to tell you when to flush properly, it really starts to go down the toilet. In your enclosed area, a bird high enough to be out of sight is impractical, so I assume you would/should have eyes on the bird the majority of the time to be effective at all, so how is this whole going to help? Sure won't make the flush any more successful if the bird is that high.

But the challenge of getting a bird that high could be fun goal to set out to achieve. I think you are thinking this younger generation is looking for short cuts and a way to fly a bird from their smart phones :) I am not in that boat. I don't even own a smart phone.

[rkumetz]

But the challenge of getting a bird that high could be fun goal to set out to achieve. I think you are thinking this younger generation is looking for short cuts and a way to fly a bird from their smart phones :) I am not in that boat. I don't even own a smart phone.

Indeed. There is a big difference between having additional information available to you to assist you and using technology as a crutch. Surely there will be some who screw things up royally by making assumptions about how this new technology augments their skills.

This may actually convince me to ditch my flip phone. I have previously been unable to think of a convincing reason to get a smart phone since I refuse to answer (or send) text messages. If you want to talk to me then it had better be important enough to actually talk to me. :D

[BestBeagler]

Indeed. There is a big difference between having additional information available to you to assist you and using technology as a crutch. Surely there will be some who screw things up royally by making assumptions about how this new technology augments their skills.

This may actually convince me to ditch my flip phone. I have previously been unable to think of a convincing reason to get a smart phone since I refuse to answer (or send) text messages. If you want to talk to me then it had better be important enough to actually talk to me. :D

I am going to keep my "dumb" phone and get a mini I-pad just for this application.

Get this to protect it in the field I like the hunter orange color :)

http://www.amazon.com/Magpul-Industries-iPad-Executive-Field/dp/B00HLA7OH4

[falcon56]

But the challenge of getting a bird that high could be fun goal to set out to achieve. I think you are thinking this younger generation is looking for short cuts and a way to fly a bird from their smart phones :) I am not in that boat. I don't even own a smart phone.

I think you may be missing my point here. Having this gadget is not going to either make or break that challenge, you are the only one that is able to make this happen, with or without the unit. Whatever the case, I wish you all the luck in the world with your new training tool, me, I can think of so many, much more valuable things related to falconry that I would rather spend $995 dollars on. I guess that's the "old fart" coming to the surface.

[BestBeagler]

I think you may be missing my point here. Having this gadget is not going to either make or break that challenge, you are the only one that is able to make this happen, with or without the unit. Whatever the case, I wish you all the luck in the world with your new training tool, me, I can think of so many, much more valuable things related to falconry that I would rather spend $995 dollars on. I guess that's the "old fart" coming to the surface.

Only a poor craftsman blames his tools. I do not think I'm missing the point. This is just a tool that will change a lot of things. Were you in the same boat when telemetry first came out and people said we would be poorer falconers for it to be relying on a beeping box? Some truth to that but it doesn't have to be so. It is the same with this. I can't think of anyone believing telemetry didn't revolutionize falconry. This is a step up from even that in many ways so how could it not? Falconers that had practiced falconry before telemetry probably didn't want to spend money on it either when it first came out :) To each their own.

[xamorel]

Ledesma, Microsensory, Bymaps, Martin Systems. Not saying they aren't safe, just too big for me to want to put on a bird of mine.

Just wait to see the new Microsensory RTS Mini ;-)

[xamorel]

Hi Tony,

Yes I know that, like we discussed it by phone yesterday.

But as I told you, size and weight have been considerably reduced.

Hope to see you soon!

[Captain Gizmo]

In my opinion it is in poor taste to make posts about an alternative brand of product on a dedicated website. No points for style!

Orlando (Andrew Wernhaart) has started a thread for the Microsystems product under the general Telemetry heading. Such things should be posted there, or start a new thread.

In the meantime a short round of applause to MRT for bringing an obviously well thought out set of choices and tradeoffs to their offering in the GPS locator tag market that may well be better suited to the needs of North American falconry.

[RLBagley]

Question: “Why does the Marshall Radio GPS not take advantage of the mobile network? Wouldn’t that give it unlimited range (theoretically)?”

Well, yes, in fact. And over the last few years there’ve been several mobile network-based transmitters developed and already out there and they’ve done a good job in many ways.

But we asked ourselves, “Why is it that nobody uses them?”

Falconers in Europe and the Gulf who have tried SMS-based designs and don’t like them tell us it’s a combination of things:

1- They are very large in size and weight, so they must use a backpack
2- You have to stop and send text requests and get intermittent updates, some don't come for several minutes, if at all
3- Even in supposedly good areas, there are dead-zones in service where nothing can be sent or received
4- Ones they were using had awkward implementations of mapping, if any at all
5- Case designs are not up to the expected standard (not crushproof, waterproof, etc.)

So we thought: “How about we design and build something exciting that falconers would actually want to use? We’ve been at this game 18 years now, and think we know what that just might be!”

For this to be widely accepted, we knew it would have to be much much smaller, and ideally, the same size as regular falconry transmitter so it could be tail or leg-mounted in proven waterproof case design. It would need a full-featured but simple mapping application for mobile devices (first iOS, then Android) to which live tracks could be laid down from real-time data streaming, another part of the equation not possible through texting or available to falconers up till now.

And after a lot of effort it worked but what we didn’t anticipate was how our whole paradigm shifted: we discovered through a season of contant field testing was that this was no longer to be understood as just a recovery device, it’s actually an amazing extension of your vision in real-time as it is happening. And that’s what changed everything for us as users. It was addicting.

So when we said in the announcement video: "does not depend on mobile service," to us that is an important feature, not a limitation. Our customers hunt in areas around the world where mobile service is intermittent or non-existent and it cannot be counted on for a reliable live-steaming GPS experience. This design works all the time, anywhere on earth, both in developed countries as well as the remote regions our customers go to hunt.

All these goals have been achieved with a "direct-connect design," so that's what we chose to pursue. As the first wave of falconers are able to experience it this fall, just as we have last season, we’ll see if they also get addicted and we are right in our strategy.

RB

(this is not to say that a mobile-based design for a 2-4 month hacking transmitter will never be done someday, as that could really be cool)

[Tanner]

Ha ha- Robert, you cant lay a landmine like that last sentence and not follow up. Indeed!! Can you imagine what that does for a hack if the lifetime can extend to say a month? Imagine trapping the bird of your dreams (as far as lineage is concerned) as a passage bird. Mind bomb.

[RLBagley]

Ha ha- Robert, you cant lay a landmine like that last sentence and not follow up. Indeed!! Can you imagine what that does for a hack if the lifetime can extend to say a month? Imagine trapping the bird of your dreams (as far as lineage is concerned) as a passage bird. Mind bomb.

To me that has been the impossible dream out there for some time: a true passage hybrid of your choice? What a concept, yes.

[BestBeagler]

Couldn't you just pay a couple of thousand and get a transmitter like that? Just like Island Girl has. Put a Holohill on it as well for close up tracking.

[rkumetz]

Couldn't you just pay a couple of thousand and get a transmitter like that? Just like Island Girl has. Put a Holohill on it as well for close up tracking.
Her transmitter sends its data through a satellite that you can't use.

[BestBeagler]

Her transmitter sends its data through a satellite that you can't use.

So this wouldn't work?
http://www.microwavetelemetry.com/bird/solarArgosGPS_17g.cfm

If i understand this you pay a $30 a month data fee click on the "price" link on this page to see more http://www.microwavetelemetry.com/bird/GSM.cfm

[xamorel]

Hi Robert,
You are completely right about the benefits of real time information through radio, very useful when no mobile service is available. It is also an incredible training tool. I use it now since fall 2012 and it changes completely our ways to train our birds.
Just a little thing: not all existing systems are solely gsm based as you assume, some of them also offer real-time information through radio together with the phone feature.
About the phone network, a question: how does the map app work when there is no mobile service is available to load the map: is there a kind of memory to have the map available if no mobile service is available?
Thank you

[RLBagley]

Hi Robert,
You are completely right about the benefits of real time information through radio, very useful when no mobile service is available. It is also an incredible training tool. I use it now since fall 2012 and it changes completely our ways to train our birds.
Just a little thing: not all existing systems are solely gsm based as you assume, some of them also offer real-time information through radio together with the phone feature.
About the phone network, a question: how does the map app work when there is no mobile service is available to load the map: is there a kind of memory to have the map available if no mobile service is available?
Thank you

Yes, there is.

The user can preload the maps of his/her hunting areas in advance with a Cache Tool to have them at all times.

[FredFogg]

I am going to be extra good this year because I want Santa to bring me this system!!!! :D So freakin cool! haill

[rkumetz]

So this wouldn't work?
http://www.microwavetelemetry.com/bird/solarArgosGPS_17g.cfm

If i understand this you pay a $30 a month data fee click on the "price" link on this page to see more http://www.microwavetelemetry.com/bird/GSM.cfm

That does what you think it does however the Argos satellite is not for private use. It is a research program and you can only use it for approved purposes:

The Argos Operations Committee will check that your program is compatible with the environmental mission of the Argos system. After acceptation of your request, we will send you a Purchase Order (equivalent to argos services contracts)

The purchase order part sort of indicates that it is not FREE so there is that issue as well.

http://www.argos-system.org/web/en/293-become-a-user.php

[rkumetz]

Couldn't you just pay a couple of thousand and get a transmitter like that? Just like Island Girl has. Put a Holohill on it as well for close up tracking.

For those who are curious here is a link to the Argos system web page:

http://www.argos-system.org

[Captain Gizmo]

So this wouldn't work?
http://www.microwavetelemetry.com/bird/solarArgosGPS_17g.cfm

If i understand this you pay a $30 a month data fee click on the "price" link on this page to see more http://www.microwavetelemetry.com/bird/GSM.cfm

Isaac,

Basically--NO.

Read the acronyms. GSM is Group Special Mobile' (it's actually in French). This just means European cell phone system. Put a solar charged tag on your study animal. The tag determines and records it's position every so often from GPS (Global Positioning System). Every so often when it is in the coverage area of a GSM cell tower it downloads it's recorded position list to a central facility. The central facility then sends your computer the data file of where the animal has been for the last days or weeks. The GSM data files can also be downloaded to AT&T or T-Mobile in North America and to a patchwork of other systems worldwide.

This is a research tool intended to tell you where your study animal has been, not where it is.

For a version of this type of tool for falconry any of the GSM based falconry locator tags strive for close to real time position transfer. It is often possible to get a position in less than 10 minutes from placing a request and the data will usually include a fresh position when delivered.

[rkumetz]

Isaac,

Basically--NO.

Read the acronyms. GSM is Group Special Mobile' (it's actually in French). This just means European cell phone system. Put a solar charged tag on your study animal. The tag determines and records it's position every so often from GPS (Global Positioning System). Every so often when it is in the coverage area of a GSM cell tower it downloads it's recorded position list to a central facility. The central facility then sends your computer the data file of where the animal has been for the last days or weeks. The GSM data files can also be downloaded to AT&T or T-Mobile in North America and to a patchwork of other systems worldwide.

This is a research tool intended to tell you where your study animal has been, not where it is.

For a version of this type of tool for falconry any of the GSM based falconry locator tags strive for close to real time position transfer. It is often possible to get a position in less than 10 minutes from placing a request and the data will usually include a fresh position when delivered.

I thought the one he linked to was an Argos PTT. Is it GSM?

[Captain Gizmo]

If you want an ONGOING view of where your falcon is RIGHT NOW you have to use a Direct Radio Link (Direct Connect Design as MRT calls it). I call this the "Convenience Mode". Direct radio link also works for short and medium range "Recovery Mode", keeping in mind that this is a radio signal just like a Beep and has all the same problems with dropping behind a hill, down in a canyon, etc. Note:reflections are not a problem, the location is in the data and the receiver does not care what direction it came from. I agree with MRT's choice that all methods should be backed up by a standard Beep. A Beep will go 2 to 3 times as far as data on the same transmitter power. Follow the beep on a medium range recovery until you are close enough to get a data signal and then use the GPS to close in.

MRT has chosen to go with the direct radio link to give the falconer the RIGHT NOW of where their falcon IS, with the convenience and utility of this mode.

The cell phone based tags shine in the long range Recovery Mode (if you have cell coverage at BOTH the falcon and the falconer). They do the Convenience Mode poorly.

[BestBeagler]

Not for falconry for long term hack. Seems you need permission though to use the system. Guess you could make friends with a researcher and get an in that way (maybe).

[Captain Gizmo]

I thought the one he linked to was an Argos PTT. Is it GSM?
The Microwave Telemetry website talks mainly about GSM based wildlife tags. I did not read in sufficient detail to see if they also do Argos capable tags. Both have essentially nothing to do with either falconry tags in general or with the current MRT offering.

[rkumetz]

The Microwave Telemetry website talks mainly about GSM based wildlife tags. I did not read in sufficient detail to see if they also do Argos capable tags. Both have essentially nothing to do with either falconry tags in general or with the current MRT offering.

Take a look. I am pretty sure he linked to an Argos PTT. If they have figured out how to sell GSM tags for $4000 then I am quitting my day job and going into that line of business!

[Captain Gizmo]

I went originally to the web page in the body of the text, which took me to the GSM based tags from Microwave Telemetry. Going to the web page in the header took me to their Argos 17 gram PTT (Platform Terminal Transmitter)

Once again for all concerned: Argos gives daily or weekly updates on where your study animal HAS BEEN.
No real time positions.
No position on demand.
Researchers snivel about Argos air time consuming a significant portion of their budget.

Finally, what does any of this have to do with MRT and their "Direct Connect Design"

Let's move this discussion over to the open section of "Telemetry", perhaps start a thread for "Why Argos does not and can not work for falconry".

[BestBeagler]

I went originally to the web page in the body of the text, which took me to the GSM based tags from Microwave Telemetry. Going to the web page in the header took me to their Argos 17 gram PTT (Platform Terminal Transmitter)

Once again for all concerned: Argos gives daily or weekly updates on where your study animal HAS BEEN.
No real time positions.
No position on demand.
Researchers snivel about Argos air time consuming a significant portion of their budget.

Finally, what does any of this have to do with MRT and their "Direct Connect Design"

Let's move this discussion over to the open section of "Telemetry", perhaps start a thread for "Why Argos does not and can not work for falconry".

NOT FOR FALCONRY. For long term hack. Use this (if you can) to get within range that you can pick up a signal on a Hollohil transmitter or other potted transmitter.

[BestBeagler]

Marshall is AWESOME!!! Their new video https://vimeo.com/131277736
I hope the next video addresses accuracy of the data received.

[RLBagley]

We have worked to unfold the "How it works" and design information in digestible chunks to interested customers through a series of weekly video shorts linked there on the Marshall Radio Facebook Page (https://www.facebook.com/MarshallRadio).

We realized that we may have left out a good number you guys here on NAFEX, as not everybody uses or peruses FaceBook.

Anyway, we are planning 4-5 in total, then we'll combine them and leave the entire thing on the regular Marshall Radio Website (http://marshallradio.com/marshall-radio-telemetry-american-falconry).

First was the RT-GPS Design (https://vimeo.com/130542793), last week, a visual demonstration of how much has gone in to an extremely tiny package.

Second is the PocketLink Design (https://vimeo.com/131277736) uploaded today. This data transceiver is the hub and designed be used as either part of a car-system, or taken with you on long walks if needed.

Third will be the AeroVision Mapping Software we've developed to see and manage it all.

Those three components make it possible, and when used with the UHF Field Marshall tracking receiver, and secondary transmitter you've got a redundant setup that should be the new ideal.

The fourth in the series is to be about the "User Experiences" where falconers who have been helping us field test last year try to explain how it's changed their understanding of how GPS can affect their falconry experience. Last year we viewed it as just a cool training tool, but our perspective has completely changed now.

This should be a very entertaining season and when looking back, we think a historic moment in falconry history.

RB

[Tony James]

Hi Robert,

excuse a question from someone with little understanding of 'Hi-Tec', but in regard to the i-phone/i-pad, are there particular models of either that are compatible or to be preferred?

I'm assuming an i-phone tucked in a shirt pocket is the practical thing to use in the field for most of us, and an i-pad/MacBook/iMac would be useful for later analysis and entertainment?

Best wishes,

Tony.

PS Having watched the videos so far, I'm in awe, not just of the system itself, but of the manufacturing processes.
35 years ago I used to sit watching Jim Chick making transmitters in his shed, using a soldering iron and suchlike. I imagined at the time that things were as high tech as it was possible to be!

[ian p]

also i was wondering would this system work ok on some of the less exspesive type tablets such here in the uk theres the hudle 2 which my two girls have does everthing an ipad can and is 99 quid atb ian

[nebli]

as we've been explained that gps on the lines used for research like island girl can't give more than 3 or 4 signals a day because of energy consumption, I wander how this one was done

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae239/nebli90/carte%20de%20migration.png

[Shehawker]

Loving all this so far Rob. I do have a question on the data usage of the mapping app. Does it need to use phone data to get a real time view in the feild and if so how much?

I imagine that this will be covered when The next video is released but thought I'd ask just in case.

[Captain Gizmo]

as we've been explained that gps on the lines used for research like island girl can't give more than 3 or 4 signals a day because of energy consumption, I wander how this one was done

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae239/nebli90/carte%20de%20migration.png

The Tag on the study animal can record multiple positions with time stamps from the GPS as often as the energy budget will allow. The PTT then uploads all of the recorded positions and times for that day or week to the Argos Satellite in one transmission. When the satellite passes over one of the control stations in the US or France the data is downloaded. The downloaded data is processed and sent to the computer of the user, usually in less than 24 hours if they have requested "near real time" service.

The GPS fixes can be very frequent. The MRT RT-GPS can do a fix per second. The "Direct Connect Design" radio link can send the data immediately to the falconer's receiver. The energy budget allows over an hour of rapid updates while still leaving enough battery to do three days of slow updates for recovery of a lost falcon

There is further discussion of Argos under other threads in the Telemetry forum.

[Captain Gizmo]

as we've been explained that gps on the lines used for research like island girl can't give more than 3 or 4 signals a day because of energy consumption, I wander how this one was done

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae239/nebli90/carte%20de%20migration.png

Juan,

If you look at the map it shows when the PTT uploaded to the Argos satellite. Although we have detailed tracks of where two study animals had been for over a month the whole thing was done using a total of five reports of the recorded GPS fixes from the PPTs to the Argos satellite. That means that for at least one of the study animals the interval between reports was at least two weeks.

[RLBagley]

Well, the Third Installment of the Weekly Video Series (https://vimeo.com/132072282) has now been uploaded.

Some of you will enjoy this, I believe.

RB

[BestBeagler]

Will we be able to view realtime data streaming in 3D with the map being 3D as well?

[Chris L.]

Robert,

Truly amazing my friend! You guys are changing how we will practice falconry forever. This will take our falconry to a whole new level. That is pretty damn cool, congrats!

This is why Marshall is the best in the industry and continues to be the leader.

[RLBagley]

For those interested and ready, Pre-Orders for the RT-GPS, PocketLink, AeroVision App will open midnight tonight (Mountain Standard Time) through the on-line store only, on the US and EU Sections of the Marshall Radio Website (http://marshallradio.com/marshall-radio-telemetry-american-falconry)

Additional specs and details can be found there.

Orders will be shipped beginning September in the order they are received. Of course our 30-Day Satisfaction Guarantee Policy applies to this product as well as all others.

Please note the initial AeroVision Mapping App is primarily designed for the way we train and hunt falcons in the US and EU and will be available only in those regions.

A very different AeroVision is intended for our Gulf Customers which will more closely align with the different metrics and performance options they have asked for in Race Training.

Look for news about it's features and design to be uploaded later in July to the "Marshall Radio Gulf" FB Page, with deliveries planned for the ADIHEX Show in September.

But thanks to all you positive North Americans for the excitement and feedback. It's my firm belief you will not be disappointed. . . .

RB

[sugezwolf]

For those interested and ready, Pre-Orders for the RT-GPS, PocketLink, AeroVision App will open midnight tonight (Mountain Standard Time) through the on-line store only, on the US and EU Sections of the Marshall Radio Website (http://marshallradio.com/marshall-radio-telemetry-american-falconry)

Additional specs and details can be found there.

Orders will be shipped beginning September in the order they are received. Of course our 30-Day Satisfaction Guarantee Policy applies to this product as well as all others.

Please note the initial AeroVision Mapping App is primarily designed for the way we train and hunt falcons in the US and EU and will be available only in those regions.

A very different AeroVision is intended for our Gulf Customers which will more closely align with the different metrics and performance options they have asked for in Race Training.

Look for news about it's features and design to be uploaded later in July to the "Marshall Radio Gulf" FB Page, with deliveries planned for the ADIHEX Show in September.

But thanks to all you positive North Americans for the excitement and feedback. It's my firm belief you will not be disappointed. . . .

RB

Thanks Robert - as a Marshall customer for 17 years I put my faith where I believed was appropriate and am now eagerly awaiting delivery! amennn

Gerry x

[goshawkr]

Well, the Third Installment of the Weekly Video Series (https://vimeo.com/132072282) has now been uploaded.

Some of you will enjoy this, I believe.

RB

Enjoy is a bit of an understatement Robert. This is really cool innovation.

I am somewhat disappointed that I cant really justify it for my own use, but I am hopeful that down the road you will have a version which is more optimized for shortwingers.

In the mean time, I look forward to looking over the shoulder of my friends while they fly their falcons. I am sure a few of them will be adopting this system.

[Tony James]

Enjoy is a bit of an understatement Robert. This is really cool innovation.

I am somewhat disappointed that I cant really justify it for my own use, but I am hopeful that down the road you will have a version which is more optimized for shortwingers.

In the mean time, I look forward to looking over the shoulder of my friends while they fly their falcons. I am sure a few of them will be adopting this system.

Hi Geoff,

I've been talking with a couple of goshawking friends today, who are quite excited about the potential benefits of this new system to them.

I've heard a few stories used as examples of those occasions where 'knowing' rather than 'guessing' their hawk's location would have saved time, unnecessarily crossed rivers, stress, and various dangerous situations.

I believe most of us could look back over seasons with goshawks and think of countless times when we'd have benefitted from a system that told us exactly where an out-of-sight hawk was, and what it was doing, rather than one that told us it was 'somewhere in that direction'.

As a recovery tool for a goshawker, I think it will soon prove to be a winner.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[goshawkr]

Hi Geoff,

I've been talking with a couple of goshawking friends today, who are quite excited about the potential benefits of this new system to them.

I've heard a few stories used as examples of those occasions where 'knowing' rather than 'guessing' their hawk's location would have saved time, unnecessarily crossed rivers, stress, and various dangerous situations.

I believe most of us could look back over seasons with goshawks and think of countless times when we'd have benefitted from a system that told us exactly where an out-of-sight hawk was, and what it was doing, rather than one that told us it was 'somewhere in that direction'.

As a recovery tool for a goshawker, I think it will soon prove to be a winner.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Hi Tony.

To put things in perspective, I never fly without telemetry. However, last season I got out my receiver exactly twice not counting the daily check to verify that it was operating. I currently use a scout transmitter that has been custom tuned to maximize battery life, and last season I used 3 batteries all year.

At that level of use, its difficult for me to justify the expense of the battery life for this new system, to say nothing of the expense of the gear itself. It dosnt hurt that I am highly allergic to apple products for the mapping apps. :D

Your right, a lot of austringers would find more peace of mind with this setup than they currently enjoy. But even they would be better served with a system more optimized for them. For example, optimizing battery life by offering a shorter range for the data stream and/or less than real time in the data feed (for shortwingingers, one update a second or even once a minute is more than enough).

Longwingers are where the money is. It makes sense that their needs are catered to in the first (and second and third) round. And of course, there are plenty of falconers that walk in both camps.

[Tony James]

Hi Tony.

To put things in perspective, I never fly without telemetry. However, last season I got out my receiver exactly twice not counting the daily check to verify that it was operating. I currently use a scout transmitter that has been custom tuned to maximize battery life, and last season I used 3 batteries all year.

At that level of use, its difficult for me to justify the expense of the battery life for this new system, to say nothing of the expense of the gear itself. It dosnt hurt that I am highly allergic to apple products for the mapping apps. :D

Your right, a lot of austringers would find more peace of mind with this setup than they currently enjoy. But even they would be better served with a system more optimized for them. For example, optimizing battery life by offering a shorter range for the data stream and/or less than real time in the data feed (for shortwingingers, one update a second or even once a minute is more than enough).

Longwingers are where the money is. It makes sense that their needs are catered to in the first (and second and third) round. And of course, there are plenty of falconers that walk in both camps.

Hi Geoff,

I know what you mean. I invested in the 434 uhf system and have hardly used that either. But there will be times, and when they come I'm sure this additional stuff will take away much of the stress.

Of course the live data and flight mapping stuff will give me as a longwinger so much more than additional security when things go wrong, and given that my falcon won't tolerate a backpack, it's only now that the system is available with such a miniaturised transmitter that I've been able to contemplate enjoying the benefits of such a system.

I genuinely believe that systems that take the guesswork out of tracking will soon become the norm, be it for long, or shortwingers (and yes, I'm sure there will be variations in programming to suit us all one day).

A couple of my goshawking friends are keen to have a try with it this coming season, and I'd enjoy letting you know how they get on.

Best wishes,

Tony.

PS My goshawking friends have a lot more money than me. ;-)

[JRedig]

I'm planning on trying it with my goshawks, I have occasion in the mountains where this would be fantastic! Some of our snowshoe hunts last year went up over hills and yonder, left me wondering where I should be going and things are steep/deep enough that telemetry means a lot of triangulation and a lot of vertical. Even if it doesn't benefit, the geek factor is too high not to!

[Tony James]

I'm planning on trying it with my goshawks, I have occasion in the mountains where this would be fantastic! Some of our snowshoe hunts last year went up over hills and yonder, left me wondering where I should be going and things are steep/deep enough that telemetry means a lot of triangulation and a lot of vertical. Even if it doesn't benefit, the geek factor is too high not to!

Hi Jeff,

I wonder how long it will be before 'triangulation' is referred to in falconry circles as 'a defunct term once used in relation to tracking lost hawks'?:)

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tasha55403]

For shortwingers doing a daily hack of imprints I imagine this would be a pretty sweet, reassuring thing to have :) Knowing exactly where your eyass is and where it's been going would take a lot of the stress out of it. It wouldn't stop predators or anything, but being able to look at your screen and see where it is? Worth every penny I would think :)

[goshawkr]

I'm planning on trying it with my goshawks, I have occasion in the mountains where this would be fantastic! Some of our snowshoe hunts last year went up over hills and yonder, left me wondering where I should be going and things are steep/deep enough that telemetry means a lot of triangulation and a lot of vertical. Even if it doesn't benefit, the geek factor is too high not to!


For shortwingers doing a daily hack of imprints I imagine this would be a pretty sweet, reassuring thing to have :) Knowing exactly where your eyass is and where it's been going would take a lot of the stress out of it. It wouldn't stop predators or anything, but being able to look at your screen and see where it is? Worth every penny I would think :)

@#$@#%..... you guys are killin my story that there is a market out there for a stripped down version for shortwingers. :D

I have had some fantasies about hunting snowshoes and ruffed grouse in deep in the woods just like a wild goshawk would, and this setup would really help with that for sure. But even so, I'd be happier with a version that traded range and frequency of data transmissions for extended battery life. I just don't ever see being happy with going through 2-3 batteries in a week! (maybe I remember the product info incorrectly)

And for a hacking transmitter, this would be a really sweet setup. But not as sweet as if it had a good long battery life.

[Tasha55403]

I wonder if they would make an optional, dual battery version for the folks that wouldn't mind sacrificing size/weight for more juice...

[Chris L.]

Replacing batteries more often to know exactly where my bird is is a small price to pay for the hours, fuel, money and time I put into them. Especially when we are talking the bird itself is in the 2000-6000 dollar range.

I also feel this will save me a ton of time looking for my bird and decrease the time wasted going back and forth trying track them down. In my daily life, time is money and the less time I'm wasting it's money in my pocket.

It's funny how people will buy home and auto insurance and not bat an eye. But when it comes to buying insurance for your bird you get guys who so no way. When you calculate all your costs these birds they cost more than some of the same cars you are driving around insured. For me this is bird insurance and I'm happy to pay it and pay for the premium ever month... Aka the batteries

[Captain Gizmo]

Oh yea. And any time you don't know exactly how much run time is on a battery you change it out before you fly. Batteries are CHEAP.

[Ryansintx]

I wonder if they would make an optional, dual battery version for the folks that wouldn't mind sacrificing size/weight for more juice...


Great point Tash.
I think this product has great potential, but the only thing keeping me from pre ordering one is the battery life. I would Really Love to see a unit with a Solar Cell. $995 plus the cost of the bird and a replacement if its lost is a lot to risk. Granted you can also use a backup transmitter, but I would rather see one long life gps unit.

On a large falcon I would gladly give up some transmitter size/weight for a longer recovery window. It would be perfect for hacking or just the peace of mind that at some point there is a potential that the bird could be recovered after several weeks or months.

Im definitely looking forward to watching this technology mature and evolve.
Keep up the great work Marshal.
Ryan S.

[JRedig]

Robert,

How will the GPS work with multiple birds or transmitters? Do you need two pocket links and how would aero vision work? Thinking of situations like flying a cast for example.

Thanks

[Captain Gizmo]

@#$@#%..... you guys are killin my story that there is a market out there for a stripped down version for shortwingers. :D

I have had some fantasies about hunting snowshoes and ruffed grouse in deep in the woods just like a wild goshawk would, and this setup would really help with that for sure. But even so, I'd be happier with a version that traded range and frequency of data transmissions for extended battery life. I just don't ever see being happy with going through 2-3 batteries in a week! (maybe I remember the product info incorrectly)

And for a hacking transmitter, this would be a really sweet setup. But not as sweet as if it had a good long battery life.

At 8.4 grams I suspect that the RT-GPS is already about as stripped down as they can get it. The rest is all software, which weighs heavily on the mind but not otherwise.

One of the things which can defeat the acquisition of position by the tag is dense forest canopy.

[Captain Gizmo]

Robert,

How will the GPS work with multiple birds or transmitters? Do you need two pocket links and how would aero vision work? Thinking of situations like flying a cast for example.

Thanks

Jeff,

I emailed Robert about this. Yes, multiple tags at once using one PockeLink.
He did not say if this was done by each tag having a separate data address or if the PocketLink frequency hops from one channel to another. Also I did not ask if the viewing software could display multiple tracks simultaneously.

"You die as much in ten years going fast on a bike like that as most people do in a lifetime" Paraphrase of Marco Simoncelli

[RLBagley]

Robert,

How will the GPS work with multiple birds or transmitters? Do you need two pocket links and how would aero vision work? Thinking of situations like flying a cast for example.

Thanks

At present, it's intentionally been designed as a single-user arrangement, although if and when multiuser is enabled, new functions and features can be upgraded through a software update to the existing hardware.

The PocketLink will be connected to one AeroVision user, and looking for one transmitter on a particular UHF frequency. And, we'll be sending them without lasering the frequency on the case anymore, since you'll now be able to change the frequencies yourself if there are interference issues in your area. You'll also be able to change the duty cycle, give it your own name, etc, something not possible before (i.e. actually talking to your transmitter).

We will have a multi-user version for the Gulf user, who do things a bit differently, along with a number of other features they want for race training. So we've been gaining multi-user experience with that version. But unsure how and when that will come back to the US/EU version.

Additionally, a multi-user, simultaneous multi-track version is also in development for the Hound market (guys who run and want to watch 3 or 5, or 12 dogs laying down tracks at the same time), so that's also in our future, yes. But just not now at the very beginning.

The good news is there will be a lot of magic and great things to absorb as it is right now, and you can enjoy that, digest that, knowing that it'll only get better and your same hardware will stay current over time as you are able to do new things. That's the world we are entering in to now.

RB

[sugezwolf]

At present, it's intentionally been designed as a single-user arrangement, although if and when multiuser is enabled, new functions and features can be upgraded through a software update to the existing hardware.

The PocketLink will be connected to one AeroVision user, and looking for one transmitter on a particular UHF frequency. And, we'll be sending them without lasering the frequency on the case anymore, since you'll now be able to change the frequencies yourself if there are interference issues in your area. You'll also be able to change the duty cycle, give it your own name, etc, something not possible before (i.e. actually talking to your transmitter).

We will have a multi-user version for the Gulf user, who do things a bit differently, along with a number of other features they want for race training. So we've been gaining multi-user experience with that version. But unsure how and when that will come back to the US/EU version.

Additionally, a multi-user, simultaneous multi-track version is also in development for the Hound market (guys who run and want to watch 3 or 5, or 12 dogs laying down tracks at the same time), so that's also in our future, yes. But just not now at the very beginning.

The good news is there will be a lot of magic and great things to absorb as it is right now, and you can enjoy that, digest that, knowing that it'll only get better and your same hardware will stay current over time as you are able to do new things. That's the world we are entering in to now.

RB

Thanks Robert - I sure am excited at the prospect of using the Marshall GPS system on my new falcon. amennn

Gerry x

[jd0173us]

What is the smallest raptor that the RT GPS could be used on a track pack with effectively. Looking for insight from all the experience Falconers out there.

[Captain Gizmo]

An RT-GPS weighs 8.9 grams with mounting spring. Using the 3% rule this means you are within the standard wildlife allowance for 300 and up. I would say Kestrels, Merlins, and Sharpies are out. In between is a judgement call.

[jdrmd]

I see on Marshall's website that the "GPS" system is available as what appears to be a standalone system. It looks like they recommend a UHF receiver to complete the system.
My question is, how reliable is the GPS system as a standalone, i.e. do you really need the beacon system as a back up. I guess another way of asking this question is: is the GPS system as reliable as the "old fashioned" UHF beacon system. If so, why spend the extra $700 on a UHF beacon receiver? If the GPS system is as reliable as the "beacon" system do you really need the redundancy? I know the acquisition of redundant systems is usually a function of cost and or ease of use.
Thanks
John

[Captain Gizmo]

I see on Marshall's website that the "GPS" system is available as what appears to be a standalone system. It looks like they recommend a UHF receiver to complete the system.
My question is, how reliable is the GPS system as a standalone, i.e. do you really need the beacon system as a back up. I guess another way of asking this question is: is the GPS system as reliable as the "old fashioned" UHF beacon system. If so, why spend the extra $700 on a UHF beacon receiver? If the GPS system is as reliable as the "beacon" system do you really need the redundancy? I know the acquisition of redundant systems is usually a function of cost and or ease of use.
Thanks
John

In short, yes you need the redundancy.

1. The RT-GPS is a data transfer system. For a given transmitter strength a beacon will go about 3 times as far as a data signal. Marshall calls out 3 miles ground, 10 miles air for the RT-GPS signal. They call out 10 ground, 30 air for a regular beacon.
2. The RT-GPS has an on board beacon. The beacon does not have a separate battery. The GPS (depending on how you program the software) uses the battery faster than a beacon. There is no separate battery for the onboard beacon, it quits when the GPS drains the battery.
3. A second beacon for backup is simple redundancy. Any system can fail. Plus the backup beacon will have a longer battery life.

I have an article that will cover the trade offs at a bit greater length coming up in the August Hawk Chalk.

[jdrmd]

In short, yes you need the redundancy.

1. The RT-GPS is a data transfer system. For a given transmitter strength a beacon will go about 3 times as far as a data signal. Marshall calls out 3 miles ground, 10 miles air for the RT-GPS signal. They call out 10 ground, 30 air for a regular beacon.
2. The RT-GPS has an on board beacon. The beacon does not have a separate battery. The GPS (depending on how you program the software) uses the battery faster than a beacon. There is no separate battery for the onboard beacon, it quits when the GPS drains the battery.
3. A second beacon for backup is simple redundancy. Any system can fail. Plus the backup beacon will have a longer battery life.

I have an article that will cover the trade offs at a bit greater length coming up in the August Hawk Chalk.


Thanks, Tom. I assumed that was the case but just wanted a little more information on the system. I look forward to your article in Hawk Chalk.
John
N4OPH

[rkumetz]

And don't forget that if the battery in your phone or tablet dies you con still use the conventional telemetry receiver!

[sugezwolf]

Hi Folks - a big thank you to everyone at Marshall Radio for turning out yet another quality product.

http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx95/sugezwolf/Marshall%20Desert%20Hard%20Case%20for%20GPS%20Syst em%20Interior.jpg (http://s745.photobucket.com/user/sugezwolf/media/Marshall%20Desert%20Hard%20Case%20for%20GPS%20Syst em%20Interior.jpg.html)
http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx95/sugezwolf/Marshall%20RT-GPS%20amp%20Micro%20UHF%20in%20Case.jpg (http://s745.photobucket.com/user/sugezwolf/media/Marshall%20RT-GPS%20amp%20Micro%20UHF%20in%20Case.jpg.html)
http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx95/sugezwolf/Milli%20Wears%20New%20Marshall%20RT-GPS.jpg (http://s745.photobucket.com/user/sugezwolf/media/Milli%20Wears%20New%20Marshall%20RT-GPS.jpg.html)
http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx95/sugezwolf/AeroVision%20App%20-%205.9.15.png (http://s745.photobucket.com/user/sugezwolf/media/AeroVision%20App%20-%205.9.15.png.html)
http://i745.photobucket.com/albums/xx95/sugezwolf/AeroVision%20Flight%20-%205.7.15.png (http://s745.photobucket.com/user/sugezwolf/media/AeroVision%20Flight%20-%205.7.15.png.html)

Gerry x

[Tanner]

Gerry you win the prize for the most gear hung from a train.

Did the ordering for the GPS transmitter open in the EU before it did here in the states?

[sugezwolf]

Gerry you win the prize for the most gear hung from a train.

Did the ordering for the GPS transmitter open in the EU before it did here in the states?

Thanks Tanner - what did I win? :)

No we were behind the US.

Gerry x

[Rise25]

No we were behind the US.



I'm confused. I just tried to order one from Marshall and they said they were still working out final details with the software.

How did you get one already?

[RLBagley]

I'm confused. I just tried to order one from Marshall and they said they were still working out final details with the software.

How did you get one already?

Hello Paul-

There was an Event there in the UK and seven of the people who had pre-ordered were contacted in advance to come pick theirs up a little early, since we could be together, give an orientation, meet them.

We plan to begin sending out the first US orders in the next two, maybe three weeks as we have been ramping up production over the last 60 days, based on the response, to be ready. The orders will probably not go out in one big wave when we start, but will certainly be in the same sequence they came in last July.

I am in the Gulf this week where were are adding and testing a few cool new functions to better accommodate how they want to use the product for training, so there are those software changes going on, yes. But the great thing is there can now always be refinements and then updates out to you guys to fix or add things. No more shipping gear back and forth as in the past.

Anyway, pretty much every person who's had it for only a few days has commented that it's like almost like a drug, that they are so looking forward to seeing what will happen each day, seeing the bird's progress and new results we couldn't quite see before.

One actually pleaded: "please don't make me go back to the old way ever again."

Anyway, it's going to be a great season of discovery this year with such an utterly different tool, and I think we'll all be able to look back on these times as a great step forward in how we fly our birds.

RB

[Icantmove]

What's the update rate?

[Rise25]

Hello Paul-

There was an Event there in the UK and seven of the people who had pre-ordered were contacted in advance to come pick theirs up a little early, since we could be together, give an orientation, meet them.

We plan to begin sending out the first US orders in the next two, maybe three weeks as we have been ramping up production over the last 60 days, based on the response, to be ready. The orders will probably not go out in one big wave when we start, but will certainly be in the same sequence they came in last July.

I am in the Gulf this week where were are adding and testing a few cool new functions to better accommodate how they want to use the product for training, so there are those software changes going on, yes. But the great thing is there can now always be refinements and then updates out to you guys to fix or add things. No more shipping gear back and forth as in the past.

Anyway, pretty much every person who's had it for only a few days has commented that it's like almost like a drug, that they are so looking forward to seeing what will happen each day, seeing the bird's progress and new results we couldn't quite see before.

One actually pleaded: "please don't make me go back to the old way ever again."

Anyway, it's going to be a great season of discovery this year with such an utterly different tool, and I think we'll all be able to look back on these times as a great step forward in how we fly our birds.

RB

Thank you for the kind reply. I look forward to the "official" release!

[Tanner]

Mine works. We tried it on my barbary tiercel (Flight 1 below) and a friend's peregrine (Flight 6) in thermals this weekend. The top speed number for the barbary is not correct, I think it maybe came about either while we were driving or from one of the time points where we lost signal for a few cycles. The 3D flight path shown is for the peregrine - a long slanting stoop from ~1.5 miles away and 3300 ft. We re-started the track when she picked up a good thermal. The barbary tangled with a prairie and things went south and we didn't get a stoop. Anyway, it's going to be a lot of fun to play with this season.

I wanted to say thank you to Marshall for the extra goodies that they sent. Cheers.

[Tim Jessell]

My first flight w/ the Marshall GPS.

Warm, had to wait for breeze to come up for the kite (it'll blow like heck when it's finally duck season, don't you know). 1500 feet of sagging kite line out. East breeze, so unlike the south breezes here (roaring up top), it was not blowing hard up top, otherwise bird's tract height would've been higher, I imagine. Also my battery was in phase 2 so the tracking was less often so a less visually smooth tract.
Glad to finally try it out.
There was a point where I could not see my bird w/ the height and bright sun. I just looked at the big blue arrow on my iPhone, turned my head that direction, then raised my eyes up till - doink - right onto my bird. Very cool.

We are going from radio to "TV" w/ the Marshall GPS system. Amazing....

And I learned today from Robert Bagley​ there is a dedicated FB page: "Marshall GPS Users Group" to help w/ the use of this ground breaking technology meets falconry

http://timjessell.com/out/MarshallFirstFlight.PNG

[goshawkr]

I was giving this new device some thought Sunday evening. As I have mentioned, this is a device built for longwingers. Everything about it is currently targeted at what they need. Which is fine of course....

As a die hard austringer, I do at times need to track my bird down from distances over a mile, but I can only recall once having to do that once in the 18 years I have been flying goshawks.

The vast majority of the time I am trying to find out what @#$%^$%$!! bush my hawk has snuck under with its catch. And where I live and primarily hunt, the ground cover can be very thick for acres and acres. It makes for a real challenge tracking down a hawk when you have to beat the brush down just to spin a circle and refresh your bearing. In these situations, I can see a lot of advantages to this system when a shortwinger version (insert my assertion that longer battery life is needed to meet shortwinger needs here....) comes online.

Anyway, off to my question - what is the accuracy of the location? GPS is only accurate to within 100', and that can leave you a big area of brush to look under. There several correction systems that refine the GPS error rate to something much more reasonable for a "find my hiding hawk" application. Does the new Marshall GPS unit implement any of those? How big of an area is the "your hawk is here" circle?

Thankfully, the attenuator on my Field Marshall lets me get a directional signal from just a few feet away. Unforunately, because I very rarely need to use it (3 times in the 16 years I have owned it) I am too stupid to remember that the range is measure in inches and not yards when I am using the near setting and I keep overshooting my target.

[Tony James]

I was giving this new device some thought Sunday evening. As I have mentioned, this is a device built for longwingers. Everything about it is currently targeted at what they need. Which is fine of course....

As a die hard austringer, I do at times need to track my bird down from distances over a mile, but I can only recall once having to do that in the 18 years I have been flying goshawks.

The vast majority of the time I am trying to find out what @#$%^$%$!! bush my hawk has snuck under with its catch. And where I live and primarily hunt, the ground cover can be very thick for acres and acres. It makes for a real challenge tracking down a hawk when you have to beat the brush down just to spin a circle and refresh your bearing. In these situations, I can see a lot of advantages to this system when a shortwinger version (insert my assertion that longer battery life is needed to meet shortwinger needs here....) comes online.

Anyway, off to my question - what is the accuracy of the location? GPS is only accurate to within 100', and that can leave you a big area of brush to look under. There several correction systems that refine the GPS error rate to something much more reasonable for a "find my hiding hawk" application. Does the new Marshall GPS unit implement any of those? How big of an area is the "your hawk is here" circle?

Thankfully, the attenuator on my Field Marshall lets me get a directional signal from just a few feet away. Unforunately, because I very rarely need to use it (3 in the past 10 years) I am too stupid to remember that the range is measure in inches and not yards when I am using the near setting and I keep overshooting my target.

Hi Geoff,

a couple of examples.

Firstly in Scotland, testing the transmitter by attaching it to the collar of my pointer.
As she quartered the soaked moorland, I watched the arrow on my iphone pointing at her. Left, right, left. Then, as she crossed ahead of me and continued to the right, the system went wrong and the arrow remained pointing to the left.
Of course, the system hadn't gone wrong. The transmitter had fallen off her collar, and I was panicking.
It couldn't have been easier. I simply walked in the direction of the arrow until (from memory) 440 feet became 0. I looked down and there it was.

At the weekend I had a similar thing, except the transmitter was attached to my falcon, who was attached to a partridge about 700 feet away in a huge field of sugar beet.
In pre-telemetry days it would be a big problem, and even using good telemetry it can be a little problematic. With this, it simply couldn't have been easier.

Because of the excitement surrounding some of the very cool things GPS makes available, these most basic things can be easily overlooked.
For me, it's one of the most exciting developments ever.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[citabria]

For those folks lucky enough to be using this system already. How is real life in field use, battery life looking?

thanks

[Tanner]

Hi Jill,

I have not run it to depletion yet, I will let you know what that duration is when I get there. So far, a total/cumulative flight time of ~3.5 hours on a single 1/3N battery shows near-full battery charge remaining. I'm sure Marshall for your car outlet so I don't see that as ever being a problem.

Best,
Tanner

[sugezwolf]

My first flight w/ the Marshall GPS.

Warm, had to wait for breeze to come up for the kite (it'll blow like heck when it's finally duck season, don't you know). 1500 feet of sagging kite line out. East breeze, so unlike the south breezes here (roaring up top), it was not blowing hard up top, otherwise bird's tract height would've been higher, I imagine. Also my battery was in phase 2 so the tracking was less often so a less visually smooth tract.
Glad to finally try it out.
There was a point where I could not see my bird w/ the height and bright sun. I just looked at the big blue arrow on my iPhone, turned my head that direction, then raised my eyes up till - doink - right onto my bird. Very cool.

We are going from radio to "TV" w/ the Marshall GPS system. Amazing....

And I learned today from Robert Bagley​ there is a dedicated FB page: "Marshall GPS Users Group" to help w/ the use of this ground breaking technology meets falconry

http://timjessell.com/out/MarshallFirstFlight.PNG

Hi Tim - I have never known so many easterly's during the fall over here. South westerly's are our prevailing wind in blighty but I can't recall one yet!

Gerry x

P.S. Are the stats for your hybrid or peales tiercel as my young falcon has to cover at least a mile to get a thousand feet overhead? Scrub that - I assume the distance is distance from the PocketLink rather than total distance travelled?

[Tanner]

Sorry Jill- typing on my phone somehow deleted a sentence at the end there. What I was trying to say is that the pocket link plugs into the car DC outlet so running out of battery on that part is not an issue.

Best,
Tanner

[Tim Jessell]

Hi Tim - I have never known so many easterly's during the fall over here. South westerly's are our prevailing wind in blighty but I can't recall one yet!

Gerry x

P.S. Are the stats for your hybrid or peales tiercel as my young falcon has to cover at least a mile to get a thousand feet overhead? Scrub that - I assume the distance is distance from the PocketLink rather than total distance travelled?

I think so, Gerry. He's a darn good climber though.
I was warned when I started flying tiercel peales they would not climb like my hybrids to the kite. They were right. The tiercel peales does it faster.;) Better wing loading in that regard.

[Beaner]

I learned today from Robert Bagley​ there is a dedicated FB page: "Marshall GPS Users Group" to help w/ the use of this ground breaking technology meets falconry

http://timjessell.com/out/MarshallFirstFlight.PNG

I couldn't find the FB page in question, could you post the address please.

[Captain Gizmo]

[QUOTE=goshawkr;361353]
Anyway, off to my question - what is the accuracy of the location? GPS is only accurate to within 100', and that can leave you a big area of brush to look under. There several correction systems that refine the GPS error rate to something much more reasonable for a "find my hiding hawk" application. Does the new Marshall GPS unit implement any of those? How big of an area is the "your hawk is here" circle?

Geoff,

The Tag and the handset are both using the same set of satellite readings to find their location. They will both be wrong by the same 30 meters. The relative error between the two will be small. You are in a sense doing your own "Local Area Augmentation".

Thomas of the Desert

[sugezwolf]

I couldn't find the FB page in question, could you post the address please.

Hi Sam - it is a closed group for Marshall GPS users only.

Gerry x

[Beaner]

Hi Sam - it is a closed group for Marshall GPS users only.

Gerry x

:0( so I suppose I will just have to get one then! :0)

[wesleyc6]

Is this technology going to roll the canine side of things into the mix too? I am guessing that with the size getting smaller and with what iPhones are capable of that we could see a time coming that the birds and dogs will both wear GPS/UHF transmitters? Wouldn't that be nice if your phone could help navigate to a hunting spot, function as a gps to a deer stand and later that afternoon track your bird and dog.

[FredFogg]

Is this technology going to roll the canine side of things into the mix too? I am guessing that with the size getting smaller and with what iPhones are capable of that we could see a time coming that the birds and dogs will both wear GPS/UHF transmitters? Wouldn't that be nice if your phone could help navigate to a hunting spot, function as a gps to a deer stand and later that afternoon track your bird and dog.

Hey Wes, see post #109, Robert mentions about dogs in the future.

[JRedig]

Hi Sam - it is a closed group for Marshall GPS users only.

Gerry x

Um, no its not. It's just a closed group. Find it, ask to join, someone will approve it.

[Beaner]

With reference to Robert's earlier post and the ability to add freatures via software updates, what would you like to see in the Marshall GPS system?

Here's a couple to get you going,
Scout GPS for the short wings.
Augmented Reality of birds position, height and speed.
Ability to link any Bluetooth Heads Up Display glasses.
Dog E collar integration.
Multi transmitters and buddy sharing on 1 pocket link receiver.

That should keep R & D busy for a while! thumbsupp

[nebli]

With reference to Robert's earlier post and the ability to add freatures via software updates, what would you like to see in the Marshall GPS system?

Here's a couple to get you going,
Scout GPS for the short wings.
Augmented Reality of birds position, height and speed.
Ability to link any Bluetooth Heads Up Display glasses.
Dog E collar integration.
Multi transmitters and buddy sharing on 1 pocket link receiver.

That should keep R & D busy for a while! thumbsupp

as the signal is not linked to any mobile phone link it should at the very least double its capacity from 2 days to 4 or 6. that could be a winner.
just to keep "murphy" a bit further away....

[rkumetz]

as the signal is not linked to any mobile phone link it should at the very least double its capacity from 2 days to 4 or 6. that could be a winner.
just to keep "murphy" a bit further away....


The current settings allow two update rates but reducing the update rate could easily improve the battery life.

Since the link between the transmitter and the pocketlink is bi-directional there is no reason that you could not also have it drop back to "beep" only mode until the pocketlink was in range and could ask it for GPS data or something like that.

There is no end to the possibilities when everything is software based!

[sugezwolf]

Um, no its not. It's just a closed group. Find it, ask to join, someone will approve it.

Alrighty then - my mistake - apparently it's free-for-all! :D

Gerry x

[goshawkr]

With reference to Robert's earlier post and the ability to add freatures via software updates, what would you like to see in the Marshall GPS system?

Here's a couple to get you going,
Scout GPS for the short wings.
Augmented Reality of birds position, height and speed.
Ability to link any Bluetooth Heads Up Display glasses.
Dog E collar integration.
Multi transmitters and buddy sharing on 1 pocket link receiver.

That should keep R & D busy for a while! thumbsupp

I have mentioned this before, but my PRIMARY interest is battery life. I don't use my receiver very often other than to make sure it is functioning. One week ago I did my first telemetry chase in 2 years. I want to be able to tune this to maximize battery life. If this thing gave me a GPS location signal only once every 5 minutes it would be more than adequate for my needs.

Similiarly, I don't need long range for the transmitter end either - pairing with a scout is perfect for me. Even more ideal would be for me to jut pair it with my own transmitter, without using a combined unit at all. I just don't need or even want a high horsepower TX.

But I am really looking forward to a more shortwinger friendly GPS unit someday. It will really save some time to just look at a screen and know what tree my goshawk is setting up an ambush from, or what bush she is hiding from me under. Then again, my intuition wont be used as much if I can just look at a screen and get that info, and I am kinda proud of my ability to just know where my hawk has gone most of the time.

[Captain Gizmo]

The current settings allow two update rates but reducing the update rate could easily improve the battery life.

Since the link between the transmitter and the pocketlink is bi-directional there is no reason that you could not also have it drop back to "beep" only mode until the pocketlink was in range and could ask it for GPS data or something like that.

There is no end to the possibilities when everything is software based!

The flexibility of a software based system provides wide choices for the multiple and various operator errors that you can achieve at the push of a button.

[Tasha55403]

I saw a post on FB today where someone mentioned how surprised they were at the slow speed of their perlin's stoop. It occurred to me that this technology can finally answer the greatest question of all falconry: which is faster? The possibilities and variations on the question are endless and can now be answered! I wonder if someone could setup a an app or log or something where everyone can upload their data and it can make averages and answer all sorts of questions like that :D

[Captain Gizmo]

I saw a post on FB today where someone mentioned how surprised they were at the slow speed of their perlin's stoop. It occurred to me that this technology can finally answer the greatest question of all falconry: which is faster? The possibilities and variations on the question are endless and can now be answered! I wonder if someone could setup a an app or log or something where everyone can upload their data and it can make averages and answer all sorts of questions like that :D

And possibly a thread where those of us who are technically inclined can make estimates of how likely any given speed report is to be wrong, and by how much, and in which direction.

Thomas of the Desert

[Tony James]

I saw a post on FB today where someone mentioned how surprised they were at the slow speed of their perlin's stoop. It occurred to me that this technology can finally answer the greatest question of all falconry: which is faster? The possibilities and variations on the question are endless and can now be answered! I wonder if someone could setup a an app or log or something where everyone can upload their data and it can make averages and answer all sorts of questions like that :D

I've found it quite interesting myself, in that it seems experienced falcons (irrespective of species) seem to be moderating their speed in the stoop when quarry is flushed across open ground, but seem capable of going much faster when they need to.

Tony.

[gemiller]

For those who have not read/understood the same thing I had not understood.stupd I have had an epiphany, I'd like to post that after reading more information and data I am now under the impression that the transmitter included in the GPS kit is also transmitting on UHF bands, meaning you can use your existing UHF receiver for backup redundancy in case of GPS system failure or battery death. Maybe I was being stupid but I didn't really understand that about the GPS system. Once I go to the Marshall presentation here in PA later this month and verify with my own eyes that's the deal I may cave and purchase it. Then I can justify it in my head as an "expansion kit" to my UHF gear, not a "new second system"! beeer

[rkumetz]

That is correct. The RT-GPS transmits data to the Pocketlink AND a conventional beep signal that you can use with your UHF receiver.

[Tanner]

I've been playing with the "tour" feature in Google Earth as a means to share flights with others. This is a cell phone video of what I'm talking about.

https://vimeo.com/146156833

I get a nice view of it, but when I go to record the tour, the resulting file does not draw the blue track line. Anyone here have any experience with this?

The flight shown in the video is the last minute or so of the flight below. A nice flight by my barbary, he was at 2300 ft and slid down a little while we were trying to get some ratty snipe to flush (they wouldn't stay airborne). Eventually some ducks cleared and he stooped those. It was the fastest stoop I have recorded so far.

[Ryansintx]

For those who have not read/understood the same thing I had not understood.stupd I have had an epiphany, I'd like to post that after reading more information and data I am now under the impression that the transmitter included in the GPS kit is also transmitting on UHF bands, meaning you can use your existing UHF receiver for backup redundancy in case of GPS system failure or battery death.

The gps and uhf transmitter run off a single battery don't they? Im guessing you would be out of luck if the battery died unless you have a second transmitter on the bird.

I really enjoyed the video post Tanner added the other day. I think the novelty of the unit is great. Reviewing a flight on a 3D map or watching in real time on the screen gives a whole new perspective.

However, Im more of a practical guy interested in its use as a recovery tool. I haven't seen to many posts about recovering a bird with the system. Maybe after a few months of field use we see more recovery posts. Not that I want anyone to loose a bird of course. Although it would be in the name of science.
Ryan S.

[rkumetz]

The gps and uhf transmitter run off a single battery don't they? Im guessing you would be out of luck if the battery died unless you have a second transmitter on the bird.

However, Im more of a practical guy interested in its use as a recovery tool. I haven't seen to many posts about recovering a bird with the system. Maybe after a few months of field use we see more recovery posts. Not that I want anyone to loose a bird of course. Although it would be in the name of science.
Ryan S.

That is true BUT since the RT-GPS is very small and lightweight you can still fit a redundant transmitter on most birds. If you think about it, packaging 2 transmitters with 2 batteries in the same enclosure would be ok unless the transmitter came off some how. It doesn't happen often but it does occur.

[Tanner]

I have chased my bird twice with it and I would say that the chance of losing a bird with the gps unit on are very slim. If you consider how strong uhf transmitters are now days anyway, the utility of the gps system viewed purely as a recovery device pales in comparison to the value as a field tool.

[Captain Gizmo]

The RT-GPS has an included straight beep UHF transmitter. This requires a standard UHF receiver to pick up the beep. When the battery gets weak the RT-GPS software first increases the interval between data outputs and eventually shuts the data off and does only a beep at the bitter end of the battery life, as explained by Robert Bagly at the NAFA meet and as best I understood what was said. Note that all of this is in software and can change with a command.

Since the GPS burns the battery hard in the early going there are not a lot of hours left in the beeper when the data shuts off. A completely separate UHF transmitter which can be tracked on the same UHF receiver is recommended as a longer term backup.

Murphy and machinery are old and close friends.

[Captain Gizmo]

I have chased my bird twice with it and I would say that the chance of losing a bird with the gps unit on are very slim. If you consider how strong uhf transmitters are now days anyway, the utility of the gps system viewed purely as a recovery device pales in comparison to the value as a field tool.

The RT-GPS is a Direct Radio Link (Direct Connect) system. As such it shines in what I call Convenience Mode and Short Recovery Mode. It can assist to some extent in Medium Recovery situations and is of minimal use in Long Recovery tasks.

[Paul Mascuch]

A general question. Since I'm completely outfitted with 216 telemetry, can I just buy the GPS transmitter, Direct Link radio, and software and have all the GPS functionality? I could then use my 216 beeper as a second transmitter on the bird for longer term and distance recovery.

Since the GPS transmitter is micro processor controlled, could I turn off the UHF beep function on the GPS transmitter and get a small increase in battery life.

This would be a way to get the new GPS and not have to also buy a UHF receiver.

Paul

[JRedig]

A general question. Since I'm completely outfitted with 216 telemetry, can I just buy the GPS transmitter, Direct Link radio, and software and have all the GPS functionality? I could then use my 216 beeper as a second transmitter on the bird for longer term and distance recovery.

Since the GPS transmitter is micro processor controlled, could I turn off the UHF beep function on the GPS transmitter and get a small increase in battery life.

This would be a way to get the new GPS and not have to also buy a UHF receiver.

Paul

You sure can buy it without a receiver and it will work. I can't speak to turning off the UHF function though.

[Captain Gizmo]

From Robert Bagly's presentation it is clear that all this is controlled in software and the default software at this time decreases the GPS update rate to save current as you go, eventually going to a beacon only state.

It was not clear if you can command the beacon to turn off to start with from your tablet or if you would need to have the factory custom program this for you.
Just call Marshall and ask.

Your external 216 beacon is going to outlast the GPS unit in any case, so the only thing you lose is full redundancy in the overlap period.

[Ryansintx]

I have chased my bird twice with it and I would say that the chance of losing a bird with the gps unit on are very slim. If you consider how strong uhf transmitters are now days anyway, the utility of the gps system viewed purely as a recovery device pales in comparison to the value as a field tool.

Tanner,
How far were the chases? Did you happen to save the data log? If so would you mind posting it.

Like any system the uhf has its limitations. This is my second season using uhf and I lost a bid the other day for two hours because I couldn't get a good signal. Had a dead zone in town where I lost the signal all together.

Trying to triangulate where she was was tough. Figure it would be nice to just see a point on a map and drive to the bird vs driving around hoping to get lucky.

If it helps get a lost bird home faster and with less stress Im all for it.
Thanks for your feed back.
Ryan S.

[Tanner]

Hi Ryan,

I did not save the logs. Without making a novel out of it, both instances were where my barbary tangled with a nasty prairie falcon for a while and then decided to move a few miles. The first time, the GPS logged his position continually and I picked him up by driving directly under him. The second instance the tiercel flew about 3 miles and up into a low mountain range after fighting with a hag female prairie. I watched him leave on the screen after I lost visual of him, I was hoping to see him turn eventually after the prairie left the area. He did not. When he got in the hills, the pocket link lost signal. I drove over near there and the pocket link re-established connection at a mile or so and I recovered him shortly after.

The GPS/UHF combo, even with direct connect operation, is light years ahead of beacon-only telemetry because when your bird leaves the area, you have a very clear picture of what it was doing as it left, even beyond when you lose it in binoculars. Same is true when you get back in the neighborhood of the falcon - you know exactly where it is and what it is doing (is it sitting, is it way up high, it it flying in circles or still moving along a course).

Hope that helps. As I said, I think it would be damned hard to lose a falcon with this system. And that is only a small part of what makes it valuable.

Cheers,
Tanner

[frigginchi]

Shouldn't the pocket link be able to receive a straight beep if hooked to a yagi and programmed to do so?

[Captain Gizmo]

Shouldn't the pocket link be able to receive a straight beep if hooked to a yagi and programmed to do so?

It would take more than just a second set of software in the DSP section. There would have to be some added software to do a narrow band IF. Also, the Link is used to sending data to the tablet, and sending digital audio to the tablet would be an added capability. Possible yes, flip a switch no.

[rkumetz]

It would take more than just a second set of software in the DSP section. There would have to be some added software to do a narrow band IF. Also, the Link is used to sending data to the tablet, and sending digital audio to the tablet would be an added capability. Possible yes, flip a switch no.

Not having seen the schematic and the software it is just a guess but I would assume they have put together a fairly capable SDR to give them flexibility.

On the other hand, keep in mind that there is no practical reason for them to do so. There is a significant financial and time investment in the R&D necessary to build all of the elements of the system (RT-GPS, Pocketlink and the UHF receiver) so if MRT starts using their software smarts to double up on functions they are shooting themselves in the foot. Remember, these guys feed their families on their revenues and it is not just a hobby so they actually do need to be profitable. In my estimation from the perspective of being employed by a company that sells electronic products of similar complexity in a similarly limited-interest market, the MRT system is priced quite reasonably assuming that when we buy one we also expect them to be around for a while to support and repair them for us. Refer to the "Tracker out of business" thread if you have questions. :D

[jmnucci]

I'm probably going to buy one of these before next season and just had a few questions.

From what I inferred at the NAFA meet, the GPS signal is being sent to the pocket like using a 433 mHz band and the traditional "beep" is being sent out on 434 which I can pick up on my UHF receiver. Is this correct?

Is the coding on the 433 message proprietary or is their the potential of HAM radio operators picking up this signal and deciphering it? I'm assuming its not CW.

How do these operate when multiple systems are being used in the same area? Is there none of the traditional crosstalk on similar frequencies?

Thanks for the help.

[rkumetz]

I'm probably going to buy one of these before next season and just had a few questions.

From what I inferred at the NAFA meet, the GPS signal is being sent to the pocket like using a 433 mHz band and the traditional "beep" is being sent out on 434 which I can pick up on my UHF receiver. Is this correct?

Is the coding on the 433 message proprietary or is their the potential of HAM radio operators picking up this signal and deciphering it? I'm assuming its not CW.

How do these operate when multiple systems are being used in the same area? Is there none of the traditional crosstalk on similar frequencies?

Thanks for the help.


Yes. That is correct. You can use the Pocketlink to get the GPS info and your conventional UHF receiver to get the "beep"

The TX to Pocketlink data is a proprietary format.

Can't tell you what happens when there is more than one set to the SAME frequency but you can change the frequencies of both the beep and GPS data from the Aerovision app on your iOS device.

[jmnucci]

One more question then. Just out of curiosity, do you need to have a HAM license to legally operate one of these systems?

If I remember correctly from studying for the test, if the signal is below 1 watt of power it is exempt. I have no idea what the power output is.

[jdrmd]

You are supposed to have a HAM license to use this system. There is a way to program your call sign into the transmitter.

John

[jmnucci]

Do you know how your call sign is transmitted? Is it in CW on both frequencies?

I'm just curious as to how HAM operators would identify signals from the transmitter.

[jdrmd]

Do you know how your call sign is transmitted? Is it in CW on both frequencies?

I'm just curious as to how HAM operators would identify signals from the transmitter.

I think it is transmitted in morse on the beeper signal every 5 minutes(not positive about that but I think it is correct)..not sure about the gps signal.

John

[RLBagley]

Here's an answer to some of the "Arrow Questions" that is copied from the Marshall GPS User Group FaceBook Page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/1503413286649295/) (thanks Kevin Harcourt):

"Here's a few things to keep in mind about how it actually works. The seemingly simple Arrow uses both the coordinates of the falcon (as transmitted from the RT-GPS) plus the array of sensors embedded in the iDevice (including the GPS receiver, magnetometer and accelerometer). To assure the best performance, the user can do a few simple things to help the iPhone or iPad give the best results. First, always give the device plenty of time to acquire and pinpoint it’s position with a good clear view of the sky. If you ever suspect it's drifting in accuracy, you can recalibrate the magnetometer (basically the phones internal compass) from time to time, by rotating the device in a spherical motion or by rolling end over end a top over bottom a couple of times. Then holding the phone in the landscape orientation, the arrow will be pointing straight to the bird.

Remember though, that as you get close (around 50’ or so) it is normal for the arrow to start to move around as you are within the margin of error of the phone and transmitter's positional accuracy."

[jmnucci]

I've been thinking about this a little more and I've got some opinion questions.

What does everyone use as a backup transmitter to their GPS units? Seems like you'd want something relative light since it would not be on the backpack but still have a longer run time to complement the GPS's relative short run time.

Is anyone planning on using GPS on birds at hack this spring? Seems like a cool applications and might give you a good ideas as to when to recover them.

Can you adjust the refresh rate of the transmitter through the software?

[rkumetz]

Can you adjust the refresh rate of the transmitter through the software?

There are a few different refresh speed / battery saver type options available and they are selected in the software.

[WILL HUNT]

I've been thinking about this a little more and I've got some opinion questions.

What does everyone use as a backup transmitter to their GPS units? Seems like you'd want something relative light since it would not be on the backpack but still have a longer run time to complement the GPS's relative short run time.

Is anyone planning on using GPS on birds at hack this spring? Seems like a cool applications and might give you a good ideas as to when to recover them.

Can you adjust the refresh rate of the transmitter through the software?

I was thinking about a hack, but not sure I want to raise the stakes by another $1,000😁

[jmnucci]

So is Marshall going to come out with an android app by next season or am I going to forced to buy an Apple product?

[Heero]

I am planning to buy one of these for using during a tame hack. And I too was forced to purchase an Apple product, something I never really cared to do. C'est la vie.

Mike

[rkumetz]

I am planning to buy one of these for using during a tame hack. And I too was forced to purchase an Apple product, something I never really cared to do. C'est la vie.

Mike

I did some research and found that there are lots of iPhones and iPads out there which were previously owned by people who ran up a huge bill with the cellular company and they got disconnected. They become a "bad ESN" and since they are locked on a single carrier you can't reconnect them. They are useless as a cellphone but become a relatively inexpensive tablet with GPS, etc. The one important factor is that the device MUST have a good Apple ID. If it does not then it is likely stolen and is for all intents an purposes a relatively expensive paperweight. I am definitely not an Apple expert so you should double check with an Apple friendly person before plunking down any money but it does look like a relatively good route to go if you can't wait for the Android software but have an Android phone which can function as a WIFI hotspot for a cellular disabled device to acquire maps when necessary.

[rkumetz]

I am planning to buy one of these for using during a tame hack. And I too was forced to purchase an Apple product, something I never really cared to do. C'est la vie.

Mike

PS Sorry you had to stoop to that level. I really do feel your pain. frus)

[FredFogg]

Ok, I just read through this entire thread and I probably read it but didn't comprehend what was said because all this telemetry stuff just goes right over my head. I plan on buying the RT-GPS Package which comes with a RT GPS transmitter. I also plan on buying the FM UHF as I plan on getting everything in 434.

So now the question is what else I do I need? I was planning on buying 2 UHF Micro's in 434 and tail mounting them on 2 birds. If I bought another RT GPS transmitter in exactly the same frequency as the one that comes with the RT GPS Package, will I be able to turn off the back pack mounted RT transmitter on one bird and then turn on the back pack mounted RT transmitter on the other bird and my GPS system will be ready to roll again. Or should I be doing it another way?

I know the 2 tail mounts can be the same but I plan on getting them in separate 434 frequencies so if need be, I can have them both on at the same time (weathering, etc.).

And last question, if I have my GPS system and say it is 434.005 and 433 whatever and I am at the NAFA meet and someone else has the same frequencies on their GPS system, will we be in trouble?

Oh yeah, I have an old iPhone 5 for sale for any of you poor phone deficient folks that use those other kinds of phones! LOL toungeout

[JRedig]

Ok, I just read through this entire thread and I probably read it but didn't comprehend what was said because all this telemetry stuff just goes right over my head. I plan on buying the RT-GPS Package which comes with a RT GPS transmitter. I also plan on buying the FM UHF as I plan on getting everything in 434.

So now the question is what else I do I need? I was planning on buying 2 UHF Micro's in 434 and tail mounting them on 2 birds. If I bought another RT GPS transmitter in exactly the same frequency as the one that comes with the RT GPS Package, will I be able to turn off the back pack mounted RT transmitter on one bird and then turn on the back pack mounted RT transmitter on the other bird and my GPS system will be ready to roll again. Or should I be doing it another way?

I'd get an omni and the all in one desert carrying case in addition to A LOT of batteries...

RT-GPS transmitters are programmable for frequency. You can set them to whatever you want. In theory you should be able to use 1 pocketlink for 2 TX's, but not sure. I've been after them to run two at once since last year since I have a cast of birds, but am not sure how it all relates to multiple transmitters. They do it in the gulf, but they also run different software/firmware there. You should be able to run two TX's to one pocketlink one at a time...but I haven't done it.



I know the 2 tail mounts can be the same but I plan on getting them in separate 434 frequencies so if need be, I can have them both on at the same time (weathering, etc.).

And last question, if I have my GPS system and say it is 434.005 and 433 whatever and I am at the NAFA meet and someone else has the same frequencies on their GPS system, will we be in trouble?


See above about programming frequences. This also goes for the transmission frequency that the GPS data packets are sent ot the pocketlink on. It's possible for things to overlap at the meet, but easy to change to something else.

[FredFogg]

I'd get an omni and the all in one desert carrying case in addition to A LOT of batteries...

RT-GPS transmitters are programmable for frequency. You can set them to whatever you want. In theory you should be able to use 1 pocketlink for 2 TX's, but not sure. I've been after them to run two at once since last year since I have a cast of birds, but am not sure how it all relates to multiple transmitters. They do it in the gulf, but they also run different software/firmware there. You should be able to run two TX's to one pocketlink one at a time...but I haven't done it.



See above about programming frequences. This also goes for the transmission frequency that the GPS data packets are sent ot the pocketlink on. It's possible for things to overlap at the meet, but easy to change to something else.

Thanks Jeff! Duh, I just found the Q & A page on Marshall's site which answers my questions!

But on another note, we might need to suggest to NAFA to put up a board where folks using the GPS can log which frequency they are using and others can program theirs to different one and log what they are using. Might help deter a problem during the week. I doubt there will be 500 folks there using GPS! LOL

Another question, just read the entire page of the Q & A and at the bottom of the page it has where you can order. It has a drop down box to order Mounting Method, if you are using the back pack, you would choose Tail instead of Leg, right?

[JRedig]

Thanks Jeff! Duh, I just found the Q & A page on Marshall's site which answers my questions!

But on another note, we might need to suggest to NAFA to put up a board where folks using the GPS can log which frequency they are using and others can program theirs to different one and log what they are using. Might help deter a problem during the week. I doubt there will be 500 folks there using GPS! LOL

Another question, just read the entire page of the Q & A and at the bottom of the page it has where you can order. It has a drop down box to order Mounting Method, if you are using the back pack, you would choose Tail instead of Leg, right?

Correct on tail vs leg. But i'd get the parts to do a leg mount just in case, it's a different cap and cover piece for the antenna where the clip would go. In case you want a neck mount or a leg for some reason.


I wouldn't worry about the nafa meet, it's just like other telemetry and we don't have a board for that. Given battery life...i doubt you'll be leaving it on anyway.

[Tanner]

If you are short on spending money at present, I'd skip the omni. I have not found that to be nearly as useful as it used to be with 216. The small UHF yagis make it pretty easy to use in the cab of the truck and are more sensitive than the omni. I bought a 433 omni 5 years ago and have not used it once, despite having chased my barbary multiple times during those years.

[jdrmd]

[QUOTE=JRedig;375586]Correct on tail vs leg. But i'd get the parts to do a leg mount just in case, it's a different cap and cover piece for the antenna where the clip would go. In case you want a neck mount or a leg for some reason.
QUOTE]

Before Marshall's initial shipment they were going to offer the ability to convert from a leg mount to a tail mount in the field. But just prior to shipping they said it would be a factory upgrade to make the change..I think their might be a small fee, maybe $15 to do it but don't quote me on that. I suspect it will be the same to go from a tail to a leg mount.
I ended up buy 2 transmitters...

Another thing I found out, from Marshall, last night was you have to send your transmitter back to the factory to change the tail clip. Not the most convenient option but what can you do...

[JRedig]

[QUOTE=JRedig;375586]Correct on tail vs leg. But i'd get the parts to do a leg mount just in case, it's a different cap and cover piece for the antenna where the clip would go. In case you want a neck mount or a leg for some reason.
QUOTE]

Before Marshall's initial shipment they were going to offer the ability to convert from a leg mount to a tail mount in the field. But just prior to shipping they said it would be a factory upgrade to make the change..I think their might be a small fee, maybe $15 to do it but don't quote me on that. I suspect it will be the same to go from a tail to a leg mount.
I ended up buy 2 transmitters...

Another thing I found out, from Marshall, last night was you have to send your transmitter back to the factory to change the tail clip. Not the most convenient option but what can you do...

That's news to me. Last year on the FB group, people were removing the tail clip and marshall had a plastic piece to substitute it's place. Then adding the other cap.

I just grabbed my GPS TX and removed the nut and the tail clip. Not sure why it would have to be sent in unless there was a hardware change to newer GPS transmitters.

[jdrmd]

[QUOTE=jdrmd;375589]

That's news to me. Last year on the FB group, people were removing the tail clip and marshall had a plastic piece to substitute it's place. Then adding the other cap.

I just grabbed my GPS TX and removed the nut and the tail clip. Not sure why it would have to be sent in unless there was a hardware change to newer GPS transmitters.

Not sure Jeff. I got an email from Chris Edmunds last night:
"We recommend that you send in your transmitter if the spring needs to be changed. We have a special tool that we use so it does not mar or damage the transmitter. "

[Captain Gizmo]

If you are short on spending money at present, I'd skip the omni. I have not found that to be nearly as useful as it used to be with 216. The small UHF yagis make it pretty easy to use in the cab of the truck and are more sensitive than the omni. I bought a 433 omni 5 years ago and have not used it once, despite having chased my barbary multiple times during those years.

If you want to upgrade your UHF kit I second Ron Kumetz recommendation for a backpacker's 7 element Yagi from Arrow Antenna. Ron keeps his bungeed to the overhead in his truck shell. Considered as pure emergency gear it breaks into short pieces and lives in a small nylon bag. Price is right.

My favorite for most boost for the buck is a pole to put the antenna on top of. Height buys range. For details see forum: "Telemetry", thread: "Which Is Better, UHF/VHF".

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

[FredFogg]

This is probably a question I will have to call Marshall and get answered but I figured I would throw it out here first. I went to their website to order my new GPS system and UHF receiver and transmitters and I see where the RT-GPS transmitter comes with the GPS system but I don't see where I can order just the transmitter by itself. I want to backpack 2 birds with the same frequency transmitters so I can use the GPS system with either bird. At no time will both transmitters be on at the same time so there won't be a problem there. Is the GPS system made for only one transmitter and they want you to buy two entire systems?

Another thing I just noticed, when you click on BUY for the GPS System it has a drop down box at the bottom to upgrade the Desert Carry Case but it says to a medium. But back on the page it described the Carry Cases it says Mini and Full. Is there a medium or is that just a misprint?

[GreenHawk]

Fred,

I cannot help you with either question, but once you get your answer please update us here. I am on the verge of buying the GPS system as well, did the same as you and sold off all my VHF stuff and switched over to UHF. Had those same questions, just haven't had the time to look into it any deeper.

Thanks ahead of time,

[rkumetz]

This is probably a question I will have to call Marshall and get answered but I figured I would throw it out here first. I went to their website to order my new GPS system and UHF receiver and transmitters and I see where the RT-GPS transmitter comes with the GPS system but I don't see where I can order just the transmitter by itself. I want to backpack 2 birds with the same frequency transmitters so I can use the GPS system with either bird. At no time will both transmitters be on at the same time so there won't be a problem there. Is the GPS system made for only one transmitter and they want you to buy two entire systems?

Another thing I just noticed, when you click on BUY for the GPS System it has a drop down box at the bottom to upgrade the Desert Carry Case but it says to a medium. But back on the page it described the Carry Cases it says Mini and Full. Is there a medium or is that just a misprint?

Hi Fred,
Good news and bad...

MRT has not introduced the multi-transmitter firmware for the US market yet. I think they may have done a limited release in the gulf but I am not sure when it will be released here. It is clearly in their best interest because any eventual release of a GPS dog collar would most certainly need to be multi-transmitter.

The good news is that it is just a firmware upgrade so when they release it you can add the feature to your system.

I don't think MRT's intention is even remotely to make people consider buying 2 entire systems if they have 2 transmitters. I would just call them.

You could also put the transmitters on different frequencies and then select them by changing the Pocketlink data frequency though that might be more cumbersome than your approach for the time being.

[jdrmd]

Is the GPS system made for only one transmitter and they want you to buy two entire systems?


You will have to call them to order a second transmitter(or at least that is what I had to do last year). You will be able to use one pocket link with 2 different transmitters but only one transmitter at a time. There is a procedure to pair a transmitter to the pocket link. Not a big deal to do BTW.

There is a thread on here somewhere about this particular issue. The was a significant amount of confusion on the part of the person who answers the phone at Marshall. She was telling me I had to buy an entire system to get an extra transmitter. This was and is incorrect, ended up speaking with Chris Edmunds, who provided some education on the issue...she is very knowledgeable and easy to deal with.

Don't know about the case question.

[FredFogg]

If I may ask, what does the RT-GPS transmitter cost if bought by itself? You may PM me if you don't want to answer on the thread.

[Tanner]

about $500

[jdrmd]

If I may ask, what does the RT-GPS transmitter cost if bought by itself? You may PM me if you don't want to answer on the thread.

Fred,
I don't remember. I was thinking $350 but it could have been $500...just don't remember.

[Beaner]

In the UK its £375.00 so about $500.

[FredFogg]

Thanks guys! I went ahead and ordered the GPS system and the UHF receiver and a couple of tail mount UHF Micro's. I am for sure flying a red-tail this year so I don't really need the GPS system on it and will just tail mount a micro. I put in the for the peregrine draw and since I really don't have the time to go trap one, I probably will get drawn. LOL I have put in for it every year and have never been drawn but usually trap a passage peregrine every year when trapping merlins with my buddies. I probably will get drawn and won't see a single passage peregrine. LOL

On another note, I had just finished order the Marshall stuff through their website (their site definitely needs some fixes) and I walk out to the food truck here at work and what is soaring above me, I beautiful passage red-tail. I could see that longer than a hag tail and when she turned, I could see that nice brown tail. I will start trapping next weekend and I will be on the look out for her.

Was it a sign that I ordered telemetry and then she appeared? :eek:

[Beaner]

I tried an RT GPS on a hawk the tail end of last season and I must say it really came into it's own in heavy woodland.
No more it's over there ish, out with the phone and you can very quickly spot the hawk even when silhouetted in a leafy tree canopy. peacee

[FredFogg]

I tried an RT GPS on a hawk the tail end of last season and I must say it really came into it's own in heavy woodland.
No more it's over there ish, out with the phone and you can very quickly spot the hawk even when silhouetted in a leafy tree canopy. peacee

If I don't end up with a falcon, I probably will put it on the red-tail just to learn how to use it.

[Beaner]

I liked it a lot, enjoy

[FredFogg]

Well it looks like I am going to get to test my new GPS system out this year as I just checked online and I won the peregrine draw for NC. Figures, this year I have the least amount of time available to get off work than the past 5 years and I never won during those years. LOL No matter, I will make it happen one way or another.

[jdrmd]

Well it looks like I am going to get to test my new GPS system out this year as I just checked online and I won the peregrine draw for NC. Figures, this year I have the least amount of time available to get off work than the past 5 years and I never won during those years. LOL No matter, I will make it happen one way or another.

You predicted that result. Where are you going to trap and what are you going to hunt?

[FredFogg]

Somewhere on the NC coast! I have access to Figure Eight Island but I probably will go further north, up near Corolla. Doves and what few duck slips I can find with a tiercel and I might dabble with chasing crows with a falcon, have to think about that one. And it all depends on what I trap and if I am able to trap one. Not all that easy here in NC.

[Captain Gizmo]

usually trap a passage peregrine every year when trapping merlins with my buddies. :eek:

Solution looks simple: Go trapping Merlins and catching a passage Peregrine is a done deal.

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

[dboyrollz76]

There's a marshal GPS on raptor nest for 800 and something Gillard if anyone's interested in it.

[Megapode]

There's a marshal GPS on raptor nest for 800 and something Gillard if anyone's interested in it.



It is $875 which is $120 off retail price, I wonder if the warranty would transfer? I thought we would not see used units for sale unless Marshall came out with a 2.0 version that was smaller or better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[rkumetz]

It is $875 which is $120 off retail price, I wonder if the warranty would transfer? I thought we would not see used units for sale unless Marshall came out with a 2.0 version that was smaller or better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I see cool new toys on the ham radio barter sites all the time. People buy things and then when the credit card bill shows up they sell them before they become homeless.

[dboyrollz76]

I see cool new toys on the ham radio barter sites all the time. People buy things and then when the credit card bill shows up they sell them before they become homeless.

What would be worse selling it to buy a new falcon, then loosing said falcon!

[rkumetz]

What would be worse selling it to buy a new falcon, then loosing said falcon!

At least that guy has a reasonable price. I saw a guy post a very expensive (Like $15,000.00) ham radio rig with the explanation that he had purchased it and then his wife threatened to divorce him if he didn't sell it. Nothing like screwing up your bargaining position from the start.......frus)

[dboyrollz76]

At least that guy has a reasonable price. I saw a guy post a very expensive (Like $15,000.00) ham radio rig with the explanation that he had purchased it and then his wife threatened to divorce him if he didn't sell it. Nothing like screwing up your bargaining position from the start.......frus)
The following day, add reads one high dollar ham radio rig and wife. Trade both for four"wheeler and goshawk!

[JRedig]

Marshall just announced the rechargeable battery system for GPS on Facebook. Fantastic!

Longer life, rechargeable batteries, micro usb charger compatible. Charger does 3 at once.

See pic below, $45 for additional batteries, available mid October.

[Tanner]

Is it a separate/new system or does it work with existing transmitters?

[Captain Gizmo]

The rechargeable battery looks like you would take the lid off the old 1/3N, dump it out and screw the rechargeable in place of the old lid. I suspect it is a gram or two heavier looking at the size.

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

[jdrmd]

Marshall just announced the rechargeable battery system for GPS on Facebook. Fantastic!

Longer life, rechargeable batteries, micro usb charger compatible. Charger does 3 at once.

See pic below, $45 for additional batteries, available mid October.

Nice!! Looking forward to seeing how well it works. Thanks for posting...some of us don't use facebook.

[Tasha55403]

The rechargeable battery looks like you would take the lid off the old 1/3N, dump it out and screw the rechargeable in place of the old lid. I suspect it is a gram or two heavier looking at the size.

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

I think I saw a FB post yesterday that said it added 0.5 gram :) Well worth it, I would think!

[Tasha55403]

Yup, found it...here's the quote "The challenge is that rechargables are genrally 2x the size for the same energy, and we are all about staying small to allow leg and tail-mounting. So we found a way to get the same or better life than the 1/3N with just under 50% increase in size (not 100%) while gaining only .5 of a gram."

[Tasha55403]

I like that it says it will help acquire GPS lock faster. I got to try out a friend's GPS on V the other day and it took ages for it to sync up to the satellites. It would've been much simpler and eaten up a lot less battery life if you could wait till you got a point, turn it on and have it sync up quickly so you could fly before the game flushed. Instead, we had to turn it on, wait for it to sync, then look for a point while the battery is being steadily drained while we walked.

[Captain Gizmo]

The rechargeables are going to have a higher voltage. I can see where this would give a bit bigger transmitter output and some improvement in range. Rechargeables are also capable or very high discharge rates, so I can see where they would hold voltage better when the GPS draws big current in a cold environment. As to how either the higher voltage or higher current capability would help acquisition time I can not see. Acquisition is a software function.

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

[goshawkr]

I think the rechargeable batteries are a step in the right direction. However, what I really want to see before I bite into this is better optimization of battery life.

I have a scout transmitter custom tuned by Marshall to give the longest possible battery life. I had them reduce the pulse length and pulse frequency as much as possible. I haven't timed it, but I think I get one 1/4 second chirp about every 6 seconds. With that optimization, I get about 60 days of use per battery.

Being somewhat of the thrifty persuasion, this is great. But its not the $3 per year battery bill that really got me focused on this. Its the peace of mind that my transmitter will still be banging strong if I loose my hawk for more than 3 weeks.

When I first started using this transmitter, I expected that telemetry hunts would take a bit more time because of the delayed pulse, but really it makes no difference. In the amount of time it takes me to pan an Arc, I get enough pulses to determine where the strongest part of the arc was. With the more frequent pulses from a normally set TX, it takes me just as long to pin down the strong signal, even though I will get several times more pulses come in.

I don't need or want several miles of range. I'll trade in distance for long battery life every single time. I also don't need frequent updates. Once every 5 minutes is quite excessive for my style of use. I realize that there is a big market for Marshall with the people who do want frequent updates and long range products, but there is another market they are ignoring at present.

[rkumetz]

I don't need or want several miles of range. I'll trade in distance for long battery life every single time. I also don't need frequent updates. Once every 5 minutes is quite excessive for my style of use.

75% of the time that I take out my receiver it is to just turn it on with the antenna folded and spin around to figure out which tree my bird is in. Crappy eyesight is a real pain in the backside. Having a variable update rate so you can adjust to your level of comfort would be helpful. With a new bird you may want to have it update more often until you have an idea how its pistachio sized brain works
and whether or not it is likely to do something odd.

[jdrmd]

I like that it says it will help acquire GPS lock faster. I got to try out a friend's GPS on V the other day and it took ages for it to sync up to the satellites. It would've been much simpler and eaten up a lot less battery life if you could wait till you got a point, turn it on and have it sync up quickly so you could fly before the game flushed. Instead, we had to turn it on, wait for it to sync, then look for a point while the battery is being steadily drained while we walked.

I typically turn the transmitter on as I get in the truck heading to the field. It takes anywhere from 5 minutes to 30 minutes to get where I am going and the bird is ready to go when I get there. I missed a rabbit slip early last year because I wasn't ready when I drove into the field...not anymore.

Hopefully, the new battery will make a significant improvement is acquisition time.

[dboyrollz76]

With this system is it necessary to have a ham radio license to use?

[jdrmd]

With this system is it necessary to have a ham radio license to use?

From the Marshall Q & A located on the product page of the website:

"What are the regulations in the US and Canada for using the UHF bands?
The use of the 434 (or UHF) band in the USA & Canada requires the user to apply for a Ham Radio License (easily attainable by paying a small fee and passing a written test). Once done, the user is now a legal ‘station’ and is able to use the quiet UHF band and at much higher power levels. To legally use telemetry on this band, your transmitter must broadcast your station ID (Ham Radio Call Sign) once every ten minutes in Morse Code (a feature exclusive to Marshall transmitters). You simply enter your call sign or temporary station ID (phone number) into AeroVision."

[FredFogg]

From the Marshall Q & A located on the product page of the website:

"What are the regulations in the US and Canada for using the UHF bands?
The use of the 434 (or UHF) band in the USA & Canada requires the user to apply for a Ham Radio License (easily attainable by paying a small fee and passing a written test). Once done, the user is now a legal ‘station’ and is able to use the quiet UHF band and at much higher power levels. To legally use telemetry on this band, your transmitter must broadcast your station ID (Ham Radio Call Sign) once every ten minutes in Morse Code (a feature exclusive to Marshall transmitters). You simply enter your call sign or temporary station ID (phone number) into AeroVision."

Not needed anymore, I was told!

[dboyrollz76]

I guess I'll give them a call in the morning! Anyone know if they are open on Saturday?

[rkumetz]

With this system is it necessary to have a ham radio license to use?


Yes but if you passed the falconry test the ham test won't be much of a challenge.

[dboyrollz76]

Yes but if you passed the falconry test the ham test won't be much of a challenge.

your probably right. i was going to do it when the marshal system was released had one on back order then cancelled it. I was going to get it as I was wanting to get into abatement work. Figured it would help the employer be a little more comfortable, with me flying their birds.
I studied the ham radio books, but lost interest when the abatement work idea, was tossed by no one seemed to be hiring. Now I want one just for personal use.
Guess I'll brush of the dust on these books!

[raptrlvr]

I use the GPS transmitter with Aerovision on my iPhone 6. I don't have the receiver and instead I put a 216 transmitter on my birds and use my regular receiver just in case the GPS should stop working or lose connection to the satellite. Losing connection has happened 2 times so far. Do I need a ham license for that?

[Captain Gizmo]

I use the GPS transmitter with Aerovision on my iPhone 6. I don't have the receiver and instead I put a 216 transmitter on my birds and use my regular receiver just in case the GPS should stop working or lose connection to the satellite. Losing connection has happened 2 times so far. Do I need a ham license for that?

Jim,

Get rid of the "Need" word and substitute "technically supposed to have".

The Cheap Beep Project transmitters run on UHF. I put my call sign on each one, unless someone with a Ham license wants their own call sign. I keep my phone and Email current on the FCC data base. I have yet to hear from a helpful Ham that he is hearing one of my beacons.

I keep an open inquiry on the "legal?" silliness. I have heard of neither help nor hassle on VHF or UHF. Marshall has not heard of anyone receiving a "Cease and Desist" letter from the FCC.

My take on it is: Yes, it is good manners to carry a Ham license when operating a UHF amateur band transmitter of any kind.

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

[Captain Gizmo]

For a more complete take on "What, me legal?" in which bands see:

Forum- Telemetry
Thread- Cheap Beep Project
Post- #45

Retrogrades
Thomas of the Desert

[rkumetz]

My take on it is: Yes, it is good manners to carry a Ham license when operating a UHF amateur band transmitter of any kind.

I would like to suggest an alternative description. You also don't NEED a driver's license as long as you never get pulled over (or try to fly on a commercial flight but that is another issue altogether). I suppose the same thing could be said for a falconry permit too.

As falconers it is simply a good idea for us to "keep our noses clean" as my grandfather used to say. If one person ends up being the subject of a complaint and is sent a C&D letter then all of a sudden we are not flying under the radar any more and the witch hunt may begin. We share the frequencies with hams who did get licenses so as Tom points out it is simply polite to do the same.

Considering that it is way easier to get a ham license than either a driver's license or a falconry permit why not just do it and be 100% legal?

[rkumetz]

your probably right. i was going to do it when the marshal system was released had one on back order then cancelled it. I was going to get it as I was wanting to get into abatement work. Figured it would help the employer be a little more comfortable, with me flying their birds.
I studied the ham radio books, but lost interest when the abatement work idea, was tossed by no one seemed to be hiring. Now I want one just for personal use.
Guess I'll brush of the dust on these books!

I can't believe I am about to say this but...
If you have no inkling that ham radio is another hobby you would like to pursue then ditch the books and go to one of the free test study web sites such as https://www.qrz.com/hamtest/ My wife went to that site
and took tests for 20 minutes a day starting on a weekend. The next Friday she took the test and passed. She admits to knowing virtually nothing about radio but she did pass and not by the skin of her teeth either. As a volunteer examiner I sort of shudder at the fact that the hobby has been dumbed down to the point where most people just memorize the answers to the questions. (You can tell when you are listening to hams on the air these days) This is, as they say, no longer your grandfather's ham radio.....