2105 Little Banded Goshawk Imprint

[falcon3d]

Just started my first imprinting journey after flying 4 PR falcons over the last several years. After reading McD's book cover to cover the journey starts with 21 day old Shikra (148g).. He was hand reared for 10 days before I got him.

He is staying in a transparent storage box (which I discover he can jump out of). Can feed himself (out of a bowl), I socialize with kids as much as possible. I think I need to tether him soon and just keep him in the living room.

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0948_zpsuqprzz5u.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_0948_zpsuqprzz5u.jpg.html)

[falcon3d]

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/image2_zpshj1yzbal.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/image2_zpshj1yzbal.jpg.html)

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0925-1_zpswbtx79gu.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_0925-1_zpswbtx79gu.jpg.html)

[falcon3d]

Due to lack of ability to trap baggies (even sparrows) - I will get a few but not in volumes to keep it up daily and feed on a carcass as serving platter. I think I may have to adjust McD's approach a little. Just ordered McLeroy's Desert Hawking II which hopefully can give me a few more options.

Very tempted to take him outside to run around in the garden but not sure if will have negative impact

[danpike]

Love the little shikra. Be sure to give him plenty of small bone chopped in food if you can't get the little birds. You won't need many bags, as they learn so fast, soon he will be catching plenty of little birds. Enjoy him.

[hawkman1220]

I raised 3 of these here in the states back in the 70's and loved them. They are calmer than our sharp shinned hawks. Be careful of him getting into a tree in the garden. They learn quicker than you think to fly up!

[falcon3d]

Be careful of him getting into a tree in the garden. They learn quicker than you think to fly up!

You're so right Tony. This little bugger is already jumping on the couch now attempting to fly up to the desk. I have no choice but to keep him in his box and I cannot free loft (my mews have tethered falcons and I want to keep him indoors in the house) and I believe he is still too young to tether and put him on a perch - any idea when he would be ready for that?

[falcon3d]

Here is the box. Has a nest and a cover now.

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/image1_zpsbkcoojal.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/image1_zpsbkcoojal.jpg.html)

[hawkman1220]

I have taken a very large cardboard box like for an appliance and made a temporary indoor mews. You cut the door in the box and cut the bars in the box. It is good for that transition period between when you will actually start placing on a perch with a leash.

[falcon3d]

That's an interesting idea. Never came across this before

[falcon3d]

Day 23

Weight 145g. The weight is a little puzzling for me. I have 24hr food availability changed 2x day. I found food half eaten in mornings but not as much as I expect - then again I have no experience with eyases. I have cut up food a little smaller this evening and put a smaller portion to find it finished in 30 mins. He showed some fear this morning but subsided later

He sits on the fist now for prolonged periods of time and even walked outside with him perched on my fist in the garden - of course never tidbits or food. At home I keep him the imprint tank (transparent) but I have moved play time to another room with less furniture as he seeks the highest perch he can get to and slices all over the furniture.

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/th_IMG_0971_zpsxcun69p5.mp4 (http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0971_zpsxcun69p5.mp4)

[goshawkr]

Due to lack of ability to trap baggies (even sparrows) - I will get a few but not in volumes to keep it up daily and feed on a carcass as serving platter. I think I may have to adjust McD's approach a little. Just ordered McLeroy's Desert Hawking II which hopefully can give me a few more options.

Very tempted to take him outside to run around in the garden but not sure if will have negative impact

Khaled,

There is absolutely nothing a young accipiter can learn from a baggie that cannot be taught without one. You can use a small toy on a string to teach him to foot and fight with prey. Or roll a small ball along the floor for him to play.

After my first imprint accipiter, I generally stopped giving baggies all together because I didn't like how long they suffer with young eyass hawks and I realized I could teach those lessons - which are very valuable - without resorting to them.

I should also note that I focus on ground game, so I have not figured out how to use a lure substitute for flying quarry, and that I have occaisionally used free flying baggies to teach that, but only when the eyass is flying strong.

I look forward to reading the progress of your project on this thread BTW.

[falcon3d]

I generally stopped giving baggies all together because I didn't like how long they suffer with young eyass hawks and I realized I could teach those lessons - which are very valuable - without resorting to them.



That's a good point. I didn't even think of the fact that an eyas will take long to dispose of the baggies. My plan was to release the bird at a baggie then humanely and swiftly kill it as soon as the hawk starts to eat at it or pluck - but that intervention might create problems.

I guess the it is really about what I do next. I am at a point now where I feel the hawk is ready for the next step - now he just sits in tank and I man him on the fist. I am just very hesitant to remove 24 hr food availability in order to start getting him interested in the lure. Not sure when is the right time.

[harrishawk_79]

Or use the same baggie over and over again freeze the baggie and use a launcher

[PeteJ]

If you've been feeding him on the plate, you can try using a smaller and smaller version of the plate and attach it to the lure. If you're around quite often during the day, the food in front of them all the time is actually not as good an idea as it could be. Yes, it does allow them to eat when they're hungry. But, it doesn't make them develop an eye for the things that mean food. What I've been doing with my imprint Cooper's (who is developmentally a little further along than your bird...he make short flights and is very active now), is I would put his food on a plate. Initially I would be happy if he fed himself from the plate. I kept the food ground until just a few days ago by the way. So, as time went on and he could feed himself, then I started placing the food some distance from him as I distracted him with my hand or something, perhaps he was napping. When he would awake and see it, or turn his head to look behind him after I had walked away, he would crawl over to the plate. This went on for a couple of weeks.
Then I began placing his food plate on top of the lure, and I would place it behind him as usual, some distance away. He would then run over to it when he saw it. I would let him eat the ground food and top him off by hand at the end, remove the plate and lure. A few hours later, repeat, I started adding a feeding whistle recently as well. He will now be on the back of a lawn chair in the weathering area, some distance (five feet or so) from a table I have out there with the bath pan on it. He travels back and forth between the two lawn chairs and the table quite easily now. Periodically I go out and visit with him, pick him up on the glove, and sometimes I will lay the lure out on the table shielding the action by holding him closer to my body on the glove or just putting my body between his chair and the table. Then I plant the lure, make the feeding whistle and get out of the way. In this way he goes to the food, away from me. But by being on the table he isn't threatened by me standing over him at this point.
Accipiters can be quite shy and reserved when they are young, especially if you don't trigger their real hunger (which I try to avoid as long as possible). I try hard to make sure they get plenty of food during the day, but also I am conscious of tweaking the amounts so that he might get a little hungrier as it approaches the time of day that I will likely be flying him (although its so hot here now I won't likely fly in the evening, even though I am giving him his largest meal at that time). Right now that evening focus is to try to knock back that evening accipiter over-active period they seem to have. So I feed him very well, and then take him back to his tank and his nest bowl, cover the top with some barred metal shelving piece and then cover much of the sides and half the top with an old shirt. He's eaten, he's back in the house where its much cooler, and the visual corridor is greatly reduced. He usually just lays down and preens and dozes off until morning.
At dawn he's ready to go back out to his weathering yard and get busy. I wait until he casts his pellet and then proceed again. Here's a little video of how that all started. Sorry for the quality, I don't know if that's my phone doing that in the transfer process or what? There are other videos of him as he has progressed on there as well. Feel free to check them out. https://vimeo.com/129351959

[falcon3d]

Thanks Pete. I like the video. I noticed another video in your collection on Vimeo (I've started him on the hard stuff. Solid food). This is about the level of feathering my bird currently has, but is nowhere near ready to tear food - barely eats his finely chopped food well.

[falcon3d]

Or use the same baggie over and over again freeze the baggie and use a launcher

That's a good idea. I happen to have a launcher too :)

[PeteJ]

Thanks Pete. I like the video. I noticed another video in your collection on Vimeo (I've started him on the hard stuff. Solid food). This is about the level of feathering my bird currently has, but is nowhere near ready to tear food - barely eats his finely chopped food well.
What are you feeding it? The smaller the hawk or falcon the more important it is for quality nutrition. Now I know that Shikras are normally a little less particular about their food quality than a Sparrowhawk for instance. But, I also wouldn't think that chicken or low quality Coturnix quail would do much for them either. Smaller birds need higher nutrition due to their increased activity. Sparrows, dove or even pigeon would be better than quail during this growth phase. Later you might get away with using quail, particularly if you want to tweak the weight without reducing the ration, but you will notice a significant drop in desire to put out on harder flights if you use it regularly.

[falcon3d]

What are you feeding it?

I am feeding it quail (good quality cortunix). Have not been able to trap any doves or sparrows (just discovered my old trap broke and building a new one). I did decide to try and leave a larger piece. Today I cut half a breast of quail and tied to the lure but not on the lure. He was much more interested than with the bowl of chopped pieces and started tearing away at it. I will add so vita hawk too.

[falcon3d]

Day 24

He jump out of his tank today (which was 3/4 covered but without a heavy weight on the cover. He is definitely getting restless. I am going to tether him in the next 2 days (his anklets and jesses are still on route from the UK which will probably take another week). I'll have to do a quick DIY in the meantime. This chick arrived 1 week earlier than I anticipated and hence did not have everything prepped in advance (including trapped sparrows/doves)

I think he is definitely a brancher by now. All feathers are out and only fuzz is on his head. I put him in a spare room during socialization time and he perches up on exercise bike (his favorite). The rest of the time he is in the living room in the tank which I feel is too restrictive for him at this point.

http://vid569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0985_zpswoyklpuy.mp4

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0972_zpsk9dr5oaw.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_0972_zpsk9dr5oaw.jpg.html)

[falcon3d]

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0974_zpsaoho7mwg.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_0974_zpsaoho7mwg.jpg.html)

[goshawkr]

What are you feeding it? The smaller the hawk or falcon the more important it is for quality nutrition. Now I know that Shikras are normally a little less particular about their food quality than a Sparrowhawk for instance. But, I also wouldn't think that chicken or low quality Coturnix quail would do much for them either. Smaller birds need higher nutrition due to their increased activity. Sparrows, dove or even pigeon would be better than quail during this growth phase. Later you might get away with using quail, particularly if you want to tweak the weight without reducing the ration, but you will notice a significant drop in desire to put out on harder flights if you use it regularly.

That advice also depends on two things: the quality of the quail and wither or not they are getting the whole bird in their diet.

There is a big difference between domestically raised quail that coming out of a "pack em in and ship em out" sort of farm operation, and one that gives their birds sun exposure and a good high quality diet. Also, while a given quail may be nutritionally complete, that nutrition is not evenly distributed. The liver, kidney, heart, brain, muscle tissue, bones and intestinal tract all have very different nutrional values.

When I am raising an eyass, I make sure the whole animal is fed before I move on to the next. I do usually toss the gizzard and beak though. I think this is a large part of the reason why small birds do not do well on quail, because they pick out the yummie bits and may not get around to the less yummie pieces that have some of the micro nutrients that they need before the food is tossed.

Either way though, this is far less of a problem if you just feed high quality small birds. If its legal in Dubai, I'd be collecting little brown jobs as my first choice for food. I wish it was legal to do so in the US - especially when those little brown jobs are raiding the berries in my garden. I can feed my goshawks for a month just on the robins in my berry patch.

[BestBeagler]

There is a big difference between domestically raised quail that coming out of a "pack em in and ship em out" sort of farm operation, and one that gives their birds sun exposure and a good high quality diet.

Who does this? No big time quail producer I have heard of. I think if you could find someone that raises wild type couternix quail and fed them bugs and greens outside that would cool. I think you would have to do that yourself though.

[goshawkr]

Who does this? No big time quail producer I have heard of. I think if you could find someone that raises wild type couternix quail and fed them bugs and greens outside that would cool. I think you would have to do that yourself though.

I didn't say it was easy to come by! :D

I dunno about the sun exposure, but there are two big commercial producers in the US that kick out quail with superior nutrition. They each have a custom tailored formula for their quail feed. Brad Mitchel in the Dakotas (dunno if he is still producing though) and Boyd in Washington.

[PeteJ]

That advice also depends on two things: the quality of the quail and wither or not they are getting the whole bird in their diet.

There is a big difference between domestically raised quail that coming out of a "pack em in and ship em out" sort of farm operation, and one that gives their birds sun exposure and a good high quality diet. Also, while a given quail may be nutritionally complete, that nutrition is not evenly distributed. The liver, kidney, heart, brain, muscle tissue, bones and intestinal tract all have very different nutrional values.

When I am raising an eyass, I make sure the whole animal is fed before I move on to the next. I do usually toss the gizzard and beak though. I think this is a large part of the reason why small birds do not do well on quail, because they pick out the yummie bits and may not get around to the less yummie pieces that have some of the micro nutrients that they need before the food is tossed.

Either way though, this is far less of a problem if you just feed high quality small birds. If its legal in Dubai, I'd be collecting little brown jobs as my first choice for food. I wish it was legal to do so in the US - especially when those little brown jobs are raiding the berries in my garden. I can feed my goshawks for a month just on the robins in my berry patch.
I was going by the color of the meat in the bowl in the photo of his bird in the imprint tank. It looked pink, not red, not white, but pink. That's what tipped me off and brought this aspect to the forefront.
Its not the end of the world, but they will do much better mentally and physically on a better diet. And yes, Boyd and Mitchell do raise some very nice quail here as do a few others. But, would I even recommend those for birds such as Sharpies, Merlins and Coops? In a pinch only. If its all you've got then so be it. But you can tell the difference in a matter of days of switching to something else. The level of activity will increase in a very obvious manner.

[falcon3d]

Thanks for the clarifications on the diet. I will definitely work harder at securing alternative food and add to the diet - will trap some birds one way or the other. What about throwing DOCs into the mix, will that help?

On another note, could someone take a guess at the age of this bird. Looking at other threads on sharpies, coops, etc.. they all appear to be more downy at age 23 days. I am wondering if this bird is older than what I was told. No biggie but just want to know so I can proceed per plan of the books i am reading

[falcon3d]

some pics for the above guess at age

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0973_zps1x6tzfo6.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_0973_zps1x6tzfo6.jpg.html)

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0974_zpsaoho7mwg.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_0974_zpsaoho7mwg.jpg.html)

[falcon3d]

A quick question: I have read in multiple books that food association must be avoided prior to hard penning and available 24 hrs (I present it on the lure). Currently the bird is in the tank and I will usually replace food while bird is outside the tank. What happens when the bird is branching and is moved from the tank to a perch in the living room? How do I continue to handle the feeding without the association?

[PeteJ]

One way is to take the bird to the food. In other words, have the lure already with food on it someplace else...such as a yard table or chair or on the lawn. Then, go get the bird from the perch, walk around a bit (do not go directly to the lure...take the scenic route), then when you get close to where the lure can be seen sometimes make the feeding whistle to alert the bird to look around. It will see the lure than and you can let it go it from the glove, even if you have to lower the bird to get it near it. This step doesn't take long at all for them to learn. Unless you plan to stay awhile, I would suggest to have at least a good portion of the meal still somewhat cut up into chunk sizes that can be easily swallowed. Return the bird to the perch, perhaps with some other portion that can be worked on, such as a wing with half the breast.

[PeteJ]

Also, on the age of your bird? I think Sharpies fledge at like 25 days or slightly more. So, since the Shikra is a bit bigger bird for sure (more like Coop size right?), I would say that bird is probably 30 days at least. Looks very similar to my tiercel Coop right now, and I think mine probably hatched around May 11th, which mean he's a little over 30 days now. Seems about right.

[goshawkr]

I was going by the color of the meat in the bowl in the photo of his bird in the imprint tank. It looked pink, not red, not white, but pink. That's what tipped me off and brought this aspect to the forefront.
Its not the end of the world, but they will do much better mentally and physically on a better diet. And yes, Boyd and Mitchell do raise some very nice quail here as do a few others. But, would I even recommend those for birds such as Sharpies, Merlins and Coops? In a pinch only. If its all you've got then so be it. But you can tell the difference in a matter of days of switching to something else. The level of activity will increase in a very obvious manner.

I have a friend that finishes quail in free range pens with access to bugs and weeds and dirt in addition to a complete diet. Those things look almost like pigeons. Not as dark, but almost.

I wasn't trying to contradict your assessment BTW. I agree that meat in the bowl looks very pale for a high octane bird eating hawk. And more importantly, it looks very lean - I don't see any organ meat or vitamin in there. I dunno if vitamin suppliments help, but they certainly don't hurt.

[hcmcelroy]

Khaled,

For small hawks like yours it is good to feed a minimum of 2 whole (I remove only the loaded gut) sparrows per week with a filler of pigeon or quail. Naturally it is best to feed one sparrow per day if they are available.

I wonder how many grams it is metabolizing per day?

Harry.

[PeteJ]

I have a friend that finishes quail in free range pens with access to bugs and weeds and dirt in addition to a complete diet. Those things look almost like pigeons. Not as dark, but almost.

I wasn't trying to contradict your assessment BTW. I agree that meat in the bowl looks very pale for a high octane bird eating hawk. And more importantly, it looks very lean - I don't see any organ meat or vitamin in there. I dunno if vitamin suppliments help, but they certainly don't hurt.
Most coturnix quail should look pretty dark like that since the species throughout a good portion of its very wide range is migratory. You can't migrate with white meat. Its only the ones that are raised primarily for meat in small pens, in massive numbers, that have no ability to actually fly, or have access to direct sunlight, or fresh greens and insects, that end up with such pale meat. For the restaurant market this is probably okay because often dark meated birds tend to taste 'gamey' which the palate of the wealthy clientele might now appreciate that much. Certainly the newest recruits that Les Boyd brought in years ago from Tibet are fresh wild type and brought some rejuvenating genes back into the North American coturnix pool. But even these, if they aren't allowed access to those essential resources they will be hard pressed to get to their fullest potential.

[falcon3d]

Day 25.

Got him jessed up today and tethered on a perch inside a large eagle bath pan along with nest, lure and food. He freaked out!!. The minute he realized he was restricted in movement he bated endlessly, lots of noises and when I went to pick him up he played dead and hung upside down. Finally helped from his back onto the fist and he calmed down after 5 mins and started preening on the fist. Back on the perch and he started bating and screaming.

He calmed down significantly but still bates every 5 minutes to get to a higher perch/furniture in the house. Hope I don't have to pay dearly for this later. I really don't know what I did wrong other than probably wait too long in his development to tether him. let's see how he does tomorrow.

[PeteJ]

I haven't tied mine yet and I expect the same thing. Its just what they do. Its probably about the worst time to have with them as it seems so traumatic to us, and probably to them as well. But they get over it. There really isn't any other way to do it that I know of. I guess you can free loft them basically forever, but an adage I've felt was pertinent over the years..."If you want to fly them, you have to tie them." I think this tends to work because it is a form of discipline in their life and they are, after all, children. Structure is important in the developing mind of young animals. It also takes away their willfulness. In a free loft situation you have to work with them only when they will allow you pick them up, which in most cases with young birds means they have to be hungry just for you to get ahold of them. This of course, will do one thing for sure...promote screaming! But, if they're tied, they get used to the fact that you are picking them up to do something with them, but it doesn't always mean food. Sometimes it means going outside to the weathering yard, or going for a walk to see other things besides what they can see in the place you keep them when they are tied. Their brain is like a sponge, it wants to see things and experience things. So even though food may not be at the end of them being picked up, it may have just as valuable a reward for them.
He'll be better in a few days. Sometimes misting them with water at this stage will help them to relax and get used to their situation. Often they get over scared (excited) by bating and misting them will cool them off and make them think about preening, which might lead to laying down to take a nap.

[hcmcelroy]

Khaled,

Spraying is often a great help but watch the leg scales carefully. A young hawk can displace them when attached to a perch.

Harry.

[falcon3d]

Day 26

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0996_zpsd6ap80vl.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_0996_zpsd6ap80vl.jpg.html)

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_0998_zpspod4cmcv.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_0998_zpspod4cmcv.jpg.html)

Thankfully he is a lot more relaxed today and is learning to accept the tether. Still wants to sit on the end of the tray containing the perch but mostly on the perch or in the tray. The biggest challenge I am having now is the pick up. I am "carrying" the bird the garnished lure to eat which is working great. However, once the meal is eaten, do you pick up the bird with the glove using a titbit on the glove? The reason I ask is that my bird will NOT step up the glove (I usually have to tilt the perch back for him to step on the glove - which will not work if he is on the ground/basket eating off the lure. When I tried to pick him up on the glove will chitters and hangs upside down (not good). But once I flip him back on the glove he will stand still and happy as long as I keep him there.

[bami]

I read this post with great interest. I also imprinted a few shikra but with different approach. I just feed them directly using forceps and train them to fly to the fist so, they scream a lot. Shikra is a good fun especially the male. They are very tough and I can catch quails, myna sparrow, and chipmunk with them.

[falcon3d]

I read this post with great interest. I also imprinted a few shikra but with different approach. I just feed them directly using forceps and train them to fly to the fist so, they scream a lot. Shikra is a good fun especially the male. They are very tough and I can catch quails, myna sparrow, and chipmunk with them.

Hello Bami. Always interesting to hear from people whom flow Shikras. I have to say it has been a challenging journey so far. After a number of years training passage and PR falcons one gets in a comfort zone. Then comes along imprinting an Accipiter which is a whole different game. I am enjoying it, just not a lot of people imprinting here that once can defer to . Thankfully, plenty of great advice from NAFEX members.

[falcon3d]

Day 27.

Fed him an opened DOC last night which he enjoyed a lot. I notice he doesn't eat his fill at once. A few good chunks then rests then eats again etc.. This morning I took him out to the garden to lure to eat. He sat by it and would not touch the food for a while. Then moved the lure to a raised eating platform and he was more comfortable there. I think outdoors is little much for him.

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_1010_zps8dou2yiw.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_1010_zps8dou2yiw.jpg.html)

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_1013_zpsyohneimo.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_1013_zpsyohneimo.jpg.html)

[PeteJ]

Day 26


Thankfully he is a lot more relaxed today and is learning to accept the tether. Still wants to sit on the end of the tray containing the perch but mostly on the perch or in the tray. The biggest challenge I am having now is the pick up. I am "carrying" the bird the garnished lure to eat which is working great. However, once the meal is eaten, do you pick up the bird with the glove using a titbit on the glove? The reason I ask is that my bird will NOT step up the glove (I usually have to tilt the perch back for him to step on the glove - which will not work if he is on the ground/basket eating off the lure. When I tried to pick him up on the glove will chitters and hangs upside down (not good). But once I flip him back on the glove he will stand still and happy as long as I keep him there.
What I usually do is pick them up off the lure before they have eaten much, with food on the glove. You can also pick up the lure with them on it, and then sort of transfer them off to a piece you have in the glove, slipping the lure away. Then walk with them back to near the perch you hope to put them back on after the meal so that you are close to it when they get done. After you do that a few times he'll get more relaxed about the fist and you can put smaller and smaller chunks of meat on the lure and offer the majority of the meal on the fist after pick up...if that's what you want to do.

[falcon3d]

What I usually do is pick them up off the lure before they have eaten much, with food on the glove. You can also pick up the lure with them on it, and then sort of transfer them off to a piece you have in the glove, slipping the lure away. Then walk with them back to near the perch you hope to put them back on after the meal so that you are close to it when they get done. After you do that a few times he'll get more relaxed about the fist and you can put smaller and smaller chunks of meat on the lure and offer the majority of the meal on the fist after pick up...if that's what you want to do.

Thanks Pete. I will try that. As for feeding on the fist, will cause any screaming or aggression down the line? Is there a downside? What you describing is how I typically feed by PR/passage falcons and would be whole lot more familiar to me.

[PeteJ]

Thanks Pete. I will try that. As for feeding on the fist, will cause any screaming or aggression down the line? Is there a downside? What you describing is how I typically feed by PR/passage falcons and would be whole lot more familiar to me.
It depends a great deal on how much you lean on his weight further down the line. Most people seem to feel the need to really get after their hawks (more so than falcons) early on. But in the wild, often young hawks are still with their parents for weeks longer than some falcons. It is just harder to see what is happening with young hawks as they are frequently in the canopy of trees and tend to be a bit stealthy to begin with.
I'm not saying this protocol won't cause the undesirable effects we worry about, but sometimes those things are going to come because with hawks those behaviors are so much closer to the surface. One poor feeding day due to overheat or sour crop or whatever and boom...there it is, full blown screaming, mantling, aggression. You just have to trudge through it, get them going as best you can and let time heal all the wounds that might happen along the way. But, for me, routine is the best medicine. If the hawk knows what to expect and when to expect it, then generally it allows them to relax in the off time and be 'on' at the right time. Bouncing around with how you handle them and their training is not always a useful way to proceed.

[falcon3d]

Day 28

Overall bird temperament is getting a lot better. I am feeding 2-3 per day. taking to lure in the garden, then again in the early evening (he jumps to the fist) and then I will leave a DOCs with him at night while he sleeps so he can eat first thing. His weight has not picked up though. Bird chitters and feels secure around me. After finishing food outside on the lure he bates towards me, I put out the fist and he is happy sitting there. Today he slept on the fist in the evening.

Now for the bad news, went out for dinner and came back to find 2 feathers (I think primaries) dropped and in the blood. This cannot possibly be a good thing, but I am stumped as to how it happened. Overall the bird seems happy, maybe he go hungry bated some and got is wing stuck somewhere I can't figure it out. I am a little worried.

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_1021_zpslb95iekv.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_1021_zpslb95iekv.jpg.html)

[Gerkin]

Your previous photos of the cluttered weathering area might be a good place to start looking.
Those two mid primaries are the ones most likely to take the full force of a developing wing muscle made worse by their own weight and others around them with quills full of developing fluid.

[falcon3d]

Your previous photos of the cluttered weathering area might be a good place to start looking.
Those two mid primaries are the ones most likely to take the full force of a developing wing muscle made worse by their own weight and others around them with quills full of developing fluid.

Thanks Marcus. I cleared up the weathering - my grand idea of branches probably was not the best. Anyway, just a perch now. Hopefully it will not impact flight too much. They are on opposite sides.

[falcon3d]

Day 31

The bird is taming down really well. I am feeding him 2 x day - walking him to a garnished lure. Eats pretty fast then stops, chitters a little and them jumps on the glove. There are a number of time when he is vocal on the perch in the living room, chittering which I have mistaken for being hungry. All he wants is to sit on the glove and lay down.

I need to start feeding him sparrows/starlings ASAP and also get some sparrows ready for initial entering in a couple for weeks. I had an old trap set up which ended up trapping a dove and killing it - so I am never using that again. I am considering ordering a repeating funnel trap but they are very bulky and will cost a fortune to ship. My other options is maybe mist net for the garden.. Funnel trap DIY plans also look very complicated. Any suggestions?

Also speaking of DIY, does anyone have an suggestions for an indoor ring perch, I am almost tempted to scour IKEA for a lamp with a ring on top that I can maybe modify. Nobody flying micros here so equipment is scarce

[PeteJ]

Some people make a simple bow net using fish net small enough to keep sparrows and such from getting out. Then they put out seed in the garden by the net and wait until a good number are there and then trigger the net. Not that hard to do and you can get a bunch of live birds quickly. Just let them get used to the net being open and the free seed...a few days of that is all it would take.
You can also make a simple funnel trap out of wire fabric. Just taper down from the outside to something small enough on the inside to where they can't get back out easily. Put plenty of seed around it and inside the funnel and inside the trap and just let it do it its thing. Sometimes is useful to put a small dish of water inside and perhaps something over part of it that would create some shade so they don't cook before you get back to them. Sometimes you can use some fresh branches from a bush for this, or place the trap under a bush where there is usually shade.

[joekoz]

Some people make a simple bow net using fish net small enough to keep sparrows and such from getting out.

Here's an old DIY thread I posted several years ago on one I made.

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=12211

[falcon3d]

Here's an old DIY thread I posted several years ago on one I made.

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=12211

That's really neat.

[falcon3d]

Some people make a simple bow net using fish net small enough to keep sparrows and such from getting out. Then they put out seed in the garden by the net and wait until a good number are there and then trigger the net. Not that hard to do and you can get a bunch of live birds quickly. Just let them get used to the net being open and the free seed...a few days of that is all it would take.

will try this out.

[falcon3d]

Day 32

I can feel the bird is maturing and his appetite is getting bigger. He is also very vocal and bates a lot more. One time he was actually hunger (or at least pretended to be then ate a few bites on lure outside) then jump back on the fist. Other times, he gets very chittery and bates and then jump at me as I get close. Sits on fist and chitters a lot but no interest in food - can't figure out what he wants. I still need to feed him 2x day to ensure he doesn't get hungry.

[falcon3d]

Day 32
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_1031_zpsyonst0ck.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_1031_zpsyonst0ck.jpg.html)

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_1033_zpsgzfe6un2.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_1033_zpsgzfe6un2.jpg.html)

Can see some changes in temperament. Overall still very tame but a little more distant. Also, appetite has increased. Just got a new bow perch custom made (micro size) to replace the block perch. He doesn't like it and will not sit on it at all. I kept the block perch nearby so as not to annoy him too much.

With hard penning coming up soon. I would like some input on how to start training etc...

[falcon3d]

Day 37

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/FullSizeRender%203_zpsztssucob.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/FullSizeRender%203_zpsztssucob.jpg.html)

After a weight reduction over a few days he has gone gradually from 145g,137, 131 and finally 126g today. This was the first time I saw a keen response for a tossed lure on the ground with a tied DOC. He jumped from my fist straight to it and broke in immediately and ate plentiful. He also made a squawking sound when we went out to the garden which is where is fed daily. Next step is either call him from a perch to the lure - recall training or just enter him on a baggie with a creance. Still thinking about it. I have not fed on the fist at all thus far.

[falcon3d]

Day 38

Started screaming for food today 2 hours before usual feeding time. Took him to the field today to put him on a creance and recall him. Unfortunately, no response to the glove. He did come to a thrown lure after several attempts and in the end it was only a few feet away from him. Get him to step off the lure is a challenge, he really hops on the glove after he finishes his meal, otherwise tidbits or other will not get him to step up.

A little disappointing...

[falcon3d]

Any input welcome. This is my first imprint so really learning as I go along. Today he showed some agression to the glove - footing it a few times in the evening which sitting on it and also biting the glove. This is the first time he shows this behavior also the first time he ever had a tidbit on the glove (something I will no longer do). Tomorrow I plan to recall him to the lure in the garden (see if he responds better).

[bami]

I would like to place some input here. I trained my imprinted shikra like a passage bird. The way I do is to use forceps to hold tid bit so hopefully the bird will show aggressive toward the forceps not my finger. If I put the reward on glove then it has to be very small that my shikra can eat in one go to prevent mantling on my fist. I also do not reduce weight more than 5 gram a day. After recalling distant is around 30 m. I then introduce the lure. Usually the whole process of recalling is less than 2 weeks. Many will take less than a week to free fly. However, entering is more difficult for shikra and frozen baggy of the bird you hope to hunt is very helpful. I hope this help.

[falcon3d]

I would like to place some input here. I trained my imprinted shikra like a passage bird. The way I do is to use forceps to hold tid bit so hopefully the bird will show aggressive toward the forceps not my finger. If I put the reward on glove then it has to be very small that my shikra can eat in one go to prevent mantling on my fist. I also do not reduce weight more than 5 gram a day. After recalling distant is around 30 m. I then introduce the lure. Usually the whole process of recalling is less than 2 weeks. Many will take less than a week to free fly. However, entering is more difficult for shikra and frozen baggy of the bird you hope to hunt is very helpful. I hope this help.

Thanks Bami. I am guessing from your comment that you do not feed on the glove - only tidbit. So when using a frozen baggy, do I tie a full meal to it (DOC or quail and then step the bird to the glove?

[falcon3d]

Day 40

As stated before, I have started reducing weight over several days and gradually down from 145g to 126. He started to scream 1 hr before feeding time over last 2 days. Never fed on fist yet. He is very responsive to a lure thrown on the ground while he is on my fist but zero response to recalling him to a lure when he has to fly to me. After he eats his fill he jumps to my fist with no reward. In a way he is looking outward and feels ready to hunt. But with no recall mechanism I worry how he will act if he misses a slip. Any suggestions?

http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss132/kjonaski/IMG_1081_zpsodoolgke.jpg (http://s569.photobucket.com/user/kjonaski/media/IMG_1081_zpsodoolgke.jpg.html)

[PeteJ]

I have done this in the past with Merlins. Swing the lure and as he starts coming, draw the lure string through your gloved hand and have the lure on your fist when he is coming in very close. Let him land on it and eat. You can begin to put smaller tidbits on the lure and as long as you let him have them each time he will still feel strongly about the lure. If you cheat him, he will lose his attachment to wanting the lure.
The other way you can do it, is to call to the lure but do not put much on it. Let him land on it on the ground as usual, then offer a bigger chunk of meat on the fist which you put down by him when he's eating the lure piece. He will eventually learn to come to the lure, garnished or not, then when you offer the glove he will jump up there for the tidbit instead. It will just seem like an extra step for him. Eventually he will come to understand that the fist is a good place to come back to after a flight.

[bami]

I don't feed mine on the fist Khaled. When my shikra land on the fist she bend down and eat 1 piece of her reward in the forceps or 1 on the fist. When train for frozen baggy the first few days I attach quite a big piece of meat on the frozen baggy. I hope you get a good recalling done soon. Shikra is a very courageous bird of prey and very fun to hunt with.

[falcon3d]

I have done this in the past with Merlins. Swing the lure and as he starts coming, draw the lure string through your gloved hand and have the lure on your fist when he is coming in very close. Let him land on it and eat. You can begin to put smaller tidbits on the lure and as long as you let him have them each time he will still feel strongly about the lure. If you cheat him, he will lose his attachment to wanting the lure.
The other way you can do it, is to call to the lure but do not put much on it. Let him land on it on the ground as usual, then offer a bigger chunk of meat on the fist which you put down by him when he's eating the lure piece. He will eventually learn to come to the lure, garnished or not, then when you offer the glove he will jump up there for the tidbit instead. It will just seem like an extra step for him. Eventually he will come to understand that the fist is a good place to come back to after a flight.

Hi Pete. Will eating on the fist cause aggression on the glove later on? I fed one tidbit 2 days ago and noticed the same night when manning him that the attempt to foot the glove a few times. ung lure that I am swinging if sitting on a perch

[falcon3d]

I don't feed mine on the fist Khaled. When my shikra land on the fist she bend down and eat 1 piece of her reward in the forceps or 1 on the fist. When train for frozen baggy the first few days I attach quite a big piece of meat on the frozen baggy. I hope you get a good recalling done soon. Shikra is a very courageous bird of prey and very fun to hunt with.

Thanks Bami, I will try the frozen baggy with food attached. let's see how it works out.

[PeteJ]

Hi Pete. Will eating on the fist cause aggression on the glove later on? I fed one tidbit 2 days ago and noticed the same night when manning him that the attempt to foot the glove a few times. ung lure that I am swinging if sitting on a perch
A couple of things to keep in mind I suppose. Hawks are not falcons. They think completely different. In many ways I have felt that they are much smarter and quicker to pick up the subtleties of our behavior that leads to food acquisition for them. I think with imprint accipiters, particularly the smaller and more aggressive ones, you are unlikely to not experience some aggression during the first few months. They seem to suffer a bit more from frustration (which can come in handy later on as it can forcibly direct intensity toward quarry) and as such will display such feelings toward the falconer, the perch, the dog, whatever is handy. As they grow up (from the stage of yours and older) they begin to exhibit a state of yarak, which is not so easily seen (if it occurs at all) in falcons. Accipiters tend to have the most obvious visible outward expression of this state (yarak) by their posture and behavior (clutching the glove repeatedly, mock lunging at your face, crest raising and lowering, wings dropping slightly, erect stance).
Each bird is slightly different in their expression of yarak, some are extreme, some are subtle. The point being, these are aggressive birds. They have to be. They can't be as common as they are throughout the world without having some mechanism to keeping them in that population status. So, understand that you will be unlikely to not have aggression presenting itself to you during handling of these birds.
The other thing is, and this is fortunate for us, that this aggression can be focused and directed toward quarry. It will allow a build up of the aggression they are feeling by releasing it on quarry or on attacking of quarry. Many of the handling problems we encounter with Accipiters go away quite quickly once they begin killing prey. I know people over here that are working with Cooper's Hawks (like I currently have) that firmly believe that the more killing you let these young birds partake in, the better off you will be. I knew one falconer that said he had to kill at least five head a day with his young tiercel Cooper's imprint to ward off the aggressive attacks on himself. I have yet to really experience that with my tiercel but he's not quite in the field yet as his tail is just now drawing down the blood, and his weight is still highish, but lower than it was. But his tolerance is also very limited and I can tell by feeling his breast that I am still at least about nearly an ounce too high. In other words, right now he's being a spoiled rotten little brat! But, he does have all the things learned that are necessary to get into the field. He will get the lure fairly readily, and he will transfer off to food on the fist. He will also come to the fist, but he is still a bit reluctant at first, and will go to other perches to sort of sneak up on the glove before he makes his move. That tells me he's just too high in weight.
But, I have also seen that his aggression is building quickly now. I have seen him attempt to kill yard birds that land on the roof of his weather pen, or walk too close to it. I have also seen him fly across the pen to hit the chain link trying to get at the hunting dog he will be working with. I hate to say it, but that is what the dog is there for....to take some of the inevitable heat from the hawk off of me. The dog doesn't know this yet.LOL I have also seen him bouncing around from perch to perch in the weathering pen, all the while eye balling me in a subtle way, screaming (food begging/contact call), then suddenly kind of go at the side of the pen that is adjacent to where I am sitting in a lawn chair outside observing him. You could see his crest going up and his frustration building that he couldn't access me directly. He was getting pretty mad about it. Some of that is hunger of course, but in truth, he's not really that hungry yet. But, he just thinks he is.
And when on the fist or lure he's very aggressively mantling now. But these are normal behaviors. If you look at any documentary footage of just about any Accipiters nests from across the globe, you will notice that the young get very very aggressive with the adults just at fledging time and beyond. I think that it is not that they are needing more food, its just part of them growing up and the yarak coming to the forefront. Yarak is, in a way, a saving protocol for them. It pushes them to think about killing before they actually need to. It keeps them 'at the ready' for opportunities that may present themselves at any moment for potential meals. In extreme conditions of cold, this is what allows them to live through some very rough winter conditions. If they wait until they are hungry and in real need, they may be confronted by impossible stormy conditions (blizzards for instance) and be unable to find food and starve. So yarak is a good mechanism to help motivate these birds when they may not necessarily be in need of food desperately.
The sooner you can get your bird into killing the better off you will be, and Bami's suggestion to keep working with the frozen baggie is as good a way as possible if you don't have living bags that you can set up, or actual free living prey to let it try out.
I did look up weights on Shikras the other day and was surprised at how little weight information there was on them online. Do you know if yours is a male or female? I was trying to get a sense of whether you were getting close to a good flying weight for whichever sex, but it seemed a bit vague (both sexes would be somewhere between 100-200 grams?). I had always thought them to be larger and heavier than this...reminiscent of our Cooper's Hawk. But instead its more in the range of our Sharp-shinned Hawk I guess. Very small. My tiercel Coop is likely going to be flying somewhere around 350ish initially...perhaps a little lower. Right now he's around 367 and being a total jerk about many things.

[falcon3d]

A couple of things to keep in mind I suppose. Hawks are not falcons. They think completely different. In many ways I have felt that they are much smarter and quicker to pick up the subtleties of our behavior that leads to food acquisition for them. I think with imprint accipiters, particularly the smaller and more aggressive ones, you are unlikely to not experience some aggression during the first few months. They seem to suffer a bit more from frustration (which can come in handy later on as it can forcibly direct intensity toward quarry) and as such will display such feelings toward the falconer, the perch, the dog, whatever is handy. As they grow up (from the stage of yours and older) they begin to exhibit a state of yarak, which is not so easily seen (if it occurs at all) in falcons. Accipiters tend to have the most obvious visible outward expression of this state (yarak) by their posture and behavior (clutching the glove repeatedly, mock lunging at your face, crest raising and lowering, wings dropping slightly, erect stance).
Each bird is slightly different in their expression of yarak, some are extreme, some are subtle. The point being, these are aggressive birds. They have to be. They can't be as common as they are throughout the world without having some mechanism to keeping them in that population status. So, understand that you will be unlikely to not have aggression presenting itself to you during handling of these birds.
The other thing is, and this is fortunate for us, that this aggression can be focused and directed toward quarry. It will allow a build up of the aggression they are feeling by releasing it on quarry or on attacking of quarry. Many of the handling problems we encounter with Accipiters go away quite quickly once they begin killing prey. I know people over here that are working with Cooper's Hawks (like I currently have) that firmly believe that the more killing you let these young birds partake in, the better off you will be. I knew one falconer that said he had to kill at least five head a day with his young tiercel Cooper's imprint to ward off the aggressive attacks on himself. I have yet to really experience that with my tiercel but he's not quite in the field yet as his tail is just now drawing down the blood, and his weight is still highish, but lower than it was. But his tolerance is also very limited and I can tell by feeling his breast that I am still at least about nearly an ounce too high. In other words, right now he's being a spoiled rotten little brat! But, he does have all the things learned that are necessary to get into the field. He will get the lure fairly readily, and he will transfer off to food on the fist. He will also come to the fist, but he is still a bit reluctant at first, and will go to other perches to sort of sneak up on the glove before he makes his move. That tells me he's just too high in weight.
But, I have also seen that his aggression is building quickly now. I have seen him attempt to kill yard birds that land on the roof of his weather pen, or walk too close to it. I have also seen him fly across the pen to hit the chain link trying to get at the hunting dog he will be working with. I hate to say it, but that is what the dog is there for....to take some of the inevitable heat from the hawk off of me. The dog doesn't know this yet.LOL I have also seen him bouncing around from perch to perch in the weathering pen, all the while eye balling me in a subtle way, screaming (food begging/contact call), then suddenly kind of go at the side of the pen that is adjacent to where I am sitting in a lawn chair outside observing him. You could see his crest going up and his frustration building that he couldn't access me directly. He was getting pretty mad about it. Some of that is hunger of course, but in truth, he's not really that hungry yet. But, he just thinks he is.
And when on the fist or lure he's very aggressively mantling now. But these are normal behaviors. If you look at any documentary footage of just about any Accipiters nests from across the globe, you will notice that the young get very very aggressive with the adults just at fledging time and beyond. I think that it is not that they are needing more food, its just part of them growing up and the yarak coming to the forefront. Yarak is, in a way, a saving protocol for them. It pushes them to think about killing before they actually need to. It keeps them 'at the ready' for opportunities that may present themselves at any moment for potential meals. In extreme conditions of cold, this is what allows them to live through some very rough winter conditions. If they wait until they are hungry and in real need, they may be confronted by impossible stormy conditions (blizzards for instance) and be unable to find food and starve. So yarak is a good mechanism to help motivate these birds when they may not necessarily be in need of food desperately.
The sooner you can get your bird into killing the better off you will be, and Bami's suggestion to keep working with the frozen baggie is as good a way as possible if you don't have living bags that you can set up, or actual free living prey to let it try out.
I did look up weights on Shikras the other day and was surprised at how little weight information there was on them online. Do you know if yours is a male or female? I was trying to get a sense of whether you were getting close to a good flying weight for whichever sex, but it seemed a bit vague (both sexes would be somewhere between 100-200 grams?). I had always thought them to be larger and heavier than this...reminiscent of our Cooper's Hawk. But instead its more in the range of our Sharp-shinned Hawk I guess. Very small. My tiercel Coop is likely going to be flying somewhere around 350ish initially...perhaps a little lower. Right now he's around 367 and being a total jerk about many things.

Very helpful comments Pete. His weight was lowered even more today - reached 115g (his fat average was 140g and has been reduced over a 1 week period). . I noticed that despite being very hungry he was not flying to lure but jumping on leaves around the perch footing them and eating them. He seems generally confused/almost doesn't "see" the lure. Finally, I put him up on pole at about head height, through the lure out a few times until finally something "clicked" with him and fly down to the lure screaming and eating immediately.

I did manage to catch some quarry, so will likely enter him on them after I use the frozen quarry first.

[PeteJ]

Good to hear he's making the connection. It can take a while it seems for them to come to recognize the lure if its moving. Once they do though, look out because they will be all over it from then on. Its kind of the last real hurdle to get them past. I hope the baggie goes well for you. Make sure he gets it by tethering it or perhaps releasing it someplace where it cannot get away from him. Its better if things progress in a natural manner, with success, than if some opportunity gets missed which can be a setback. You won't likely have to do a lot of baggies as you want to be careful about their use as the birds can get too used to things being too easy to catch. What I usually do is give them about three, then back off and show them some wild slips, and if they don't catch those or worse yet don't chase those, then I go back to the drawing board and offer a bag again to increase their confidence. Sometimes their response can be related to hunger, but it can also be related to development. You can offer all the slips you want and not have them go for them because they just aren't quite there yet in development. They do stay with their parents for a few weeks after fledging, getting support from them in the form of feeding until they are doing on their own. I'm sure that some get lucky and score very early on, becoming proficient hunters. Others may not get lucky from the beginning and struggle for weeks trying to make up for the initial failures. Then one day they get lucky too and their physical and mental development finally mesh to create the killing machine they will be in the weeks and years ahead.
So don't get discouraged, he sounds like he is progressing just fine for his age.

[falcon3d]

I believe the way ahead is clear. Thanks to all that have provided input and feedback. The final piece of the puzzle for me on how to feed off of game/baggie. Till now the bird eats a DOC off the lure, jumps on the glove ONLY when he is done, feeks his beak and we are done. Do I still feed on the ground? but then how do I control portions? Do I pick the caught quarry with the bird and feed on the fist? Note he has never been fed on the fist before.

[PeteJ]

I never quite understood how that could be accomplished. I guess snap the bird in and let it feed. But what if there is weather suddenly approaching or something or someone else? A stray dog?
What I do is let them break into the kill, maybe give them time to eat the lungs, heart and liver of whatever it is, then present them with something else that I brought along, on the glove...sort of slip into their face, they will grip it with beak or step on, then lift up both the hawk and the kill, but slip the kill away while they are eating the food you brought along (your controlled amount). Either that or many people put the garnished lure down next to them and hope they will transfer over to it, many do without a hassle because they've been doing it that way since about this age your bird is now.
But, if you look at youtube videos of various small accipiters being flown (Sharp-shinned Hawks, Eurasian Spars, Crested Goshawks, Cooper's Hawks, etc.) you will see that just about everyone feeds on the fist at some point in the process. You might get away with it for quite some time, barring any interruptions or obstacles. But eventually you'll be forced to pick them up and perhaps very unceremoniously due to the circumstances. And if the bird isn't familiar with the process of being picked up from the kill or with the kill, you may scare them badly and ruin the experience with them. Trust is sort of an important thing with imprints of any kind, so you must, ideally, try to preserve it as often as possible from any threats.

[falcon3d]

Makes perfect sense.

[falcon3d]

Day 42

Weight up again to 126g. Looks like he made the connection to the lure. Response was instant. Still feeding 1 DOC per day. I believe he is ready to be entered in 1-2 days. My plan is to use a baggie in 2 days, perhaps before that I will use a frozen baggie and attached some meat to it. Screaming continues but I think he will need to take some wild game before it he quiets down.

[falcon3d]

Day 43

Entered the bird today on a baggie. Did not exactly go as planned. Started out great, I had a Myna (starling sized bird) tethered - also the same size as my Shikra. The male Shikra on the glove tied to a creance. The hawk bolted at the baggie as soon as he saw it, attempted to foot it a few times but after the Myna put up a bit of a fight, the hawk backed off and walked away. I humanely dispatched the Myna then gave it to the hawk to eat. It broke into it, at a breast then I picked him up with a quail leg which I fed him on the glove and put him back on this perch. He was screaming pretty much the whole time (but not aggressive). Tomorrow I will attempt entering on a smaller quarry maybe.

[PeteJ]

For quarries such as the Myna (and Starlings for that matter), they both fight hard with beak and feet and can put off a young inexperienced bird. Often when using them as a bags it can be prudent to tape their beak shut and some even tape the feet a little to make sure that the first few are not traumatizing too much. Young hawks and falcons are usually very naive and sensitive about those early attempts and quarry, and it is not unusual for them to be put off by certain quarry if they are too traumatized at the right time. Surprisingly, even ducks such as Mallard can be very aggressive and intimidating to a young Peregrine female, striking at her with its wings and beak when they are both on the ground, lots of hissing by the duck. I have heard a couple of guys say that when that happened their birds never wanted Mallards again.
So be cautious if you can. Something like a sparrow might be a little easier for him to deal with right now.

[bami]

When you actually hunt myna, it might be a good idea to run quickly to assist your hawk when he catches his first few myna because the myna fight as a team. They usually come to help friends who are in trouble. Some will even attack the falconers, at least I have been attacked a few times by the mama myna.

[falcon3d]

Thanks Pete and Bami. I did tape the beak. I am glad this is a somewhat common occurrence with you hawks. I chose to enter him on somewhat larger quarry (avoid carrying etc.) but maybe I will start with a sparrow as suggested and try again at a later date on the Myna.

[PeteJ]

If you do use a sparrow, make sure you have it well secured so that you can control his carrying attempt. I know how this can go, they are quite adept at trying to carry off small stuff, like chunks of meat that they steal off the lure, etc.. Most Accipiters do not want to eat in the open, so they always try to take it to thicker cover, even if they have to drag it there. Its just their survival strategy...get out of the view of other larger raptors that want to pirate their food.
And yes, using larger prey is helpful in curbing the desire to carry. But, it doesn't really change the fact that when they catch something smaller that they will still attempt to carry it. I would target prey that is just beyond their ability to carry well. So Mynahs might be the best choice long term. But initially, until he/she is feeling successful, the first few should be something not too tough to handle.

[falcon3d]

Day 44

Entered the hawk today on a tethered sparrow about 7 yards away. Flight was instant and the hawk allowed me to dispatch the sparrow without much drama. Overall went very well. However, he was screaming while on the fist before flight, screaming while eating the sparrow (particularly when I move away from him) and screaming after finishing the meal which later subsided then started again as soon as he saw me several hours later.

Frankly, the screaming is starting to become rather annoying especially since I have him on a perch in the in the living room. It went from a 1-2 hours before meal times, to ALL the time (despite his weight being raised a little)

[PeteJ]

For a time it will be part of his existence. He can't help it much, they are birds of the trees and to keep in contact with each other they call out. As his weight and confidence increase he should back off to where it is prevalent briefly for an hour before hunting/feeding time. It may disappear altogether but it is unlikely. It could be worse...it could be a falcon food begging call, which is much more annoying.:-)

[falcon3d]

Haha. I heard friend's falcons vocalizing. All my falcons have been completely silent so the first time I am hear a sound out of a bird of prey. The occasional chittering is not annoying at all, but the food screams seem to resonate at a pitch that can be heard everywhere in the house :). Soon enough he will go to the mews in in 3 weeks or so.

[falcon3d]

Day 49-52

After a weight reduction, coming instant to lure and entering on sparrows/mynas in the garden, I figured the bird was ready to hunt. I took him to the field, plenty of sparrows flushing but not response. Took him home then fed him on lure. Next day, same deal, but this time I fed him in the field (he was instant when I threw out the lure in front him). Lastly, today, with weight reduced a little, again no response to wild quarry, took him home and fed him.

When flying to lure, he appears hungry and keen. In the field, I attempted to throw him from the glove towards quarry and he just butterflies back to me and lands on my shoulder. It's funny, he is showing all signs of being at weight but the switch for wild quarry is just not on. I will reduce him some more. His heaviest recently has been at 137, he is down to 130. The first time he was responsive to lure he was at 120 (but them I brought him back up). Maybe that is what it will take. When eating in the field he is relaxed and does not exhibit fear of surroundings. When on the fist with birds flush, just looks like he is enjoying the view. Very frustrating.

Should I just keep taking him to field everyday and hope he makes the connection as he gets hungrier. Also, I have run out of baggies and frankly just don't feel he needs them anymore. He has killed tethered sparrow, myna and dove (albeit all in the garden). I tried a hampered myna in the field thrown from bag but no response.

[PeteJ]

Sometimes it becomes necessary to do the up and down on the weight to overcome particular issues. So when you had dropped him 120 that time to get him to do the lure I think it was, then you were able to raise him and he retained his eagerness for it. But they can get complacent when kept at an exact weight at this stage, and it isn't natural for them. In the wild they are spending a lot of energy right now, even perhaps catching some prey here and there. They are also being supplemented by the adult probably even at this stage. Their weight though is going up and down over the course of days based on whether they score something and what the parents offer them if they don't score. So let's say in the wild he catches a lizard early in the day. Later in the morning the parents offer food, but because he's had something to eat he may not react in time and his sibling, who is more hungry, gets that small bird they offered. Later in the day the adults maybe have something to share but he was busy getting assaulted by the local crows or mynahs, so he missed dinner. The next day he is really hungry because it rained overnight, and he's ravenous. The adults are wet, so he makes attempts to catch things himself, burning off more weight. By noon he's in yarak and those Mynahs have picked on him for the last time as he takes one that is trying to beat on him. He gets an excellent feed and is much higher again the following day. This continues for the next few weeks.
So with your bird, if you need to give him a nudge in the field then that's what it takes. They are famous for having a 'yard weight' and a 'field weight'. At home they act much more hungry than when you take them to the field where they may say to you "Sorry, I lied" as they snub you from a tree or refuse your bags.
If you can get a bag again, I would set it up, in a field with enough prey that if he refuses those slips that you can walk over and slip him on this set up one. I would tie to a light creance and maybe hide it under a board or under a can or however to keep it calm until you can expose it to the open when you get about 10 feet away. If you can control the playing out of the line in such a way that the bag struggles somewhat to make any real height or distance, he should take it. Give him a very good feed on it and perhaps do not go to the field the next day, but instead the day after, when he's back to the exact weight he was again. If you can set up another as a backup and then go and work the local prey and if he makes some attempts, but fails, then head directly to the bag and do as before. That should be enough to get him on track. Then you just have to find slips that will provide him with the best opportunity.

[bami]

From my experience, it takes quite sometime for shikra to start chasing in the field. I am talking about 2 weeks+ here. I even had a male that took nearly 4 weeks to start doing that and his weight had to go down very low, approximately 110 g. His fat weight was 145 g. He regularly hunted with me at 115 after catching a few sparrow.

[falcon3d]

From my experience, it takes quite sometime for shikra to start chasing in the field. I am talking about 2 weeks+ here. I even had a male that took nearly 4 weeks to start doing that and his weight had to go down very low, approximately 110 g. His fat weight was 145 g. He regularly hunted with me at 115 after catching a few sparrow.

That's comforting Bami. It has been 1 week now, and no respond in the field. He will chase tethered baggies on the ground but not thrown ones. He did chase a tethered Myna that manage to get lose from the tether after being on the ground then gave up after 10 meters. My bird's fat weight is probably around 137g. I brought him down on 123g (lowest in the field) and still.


So my questions is. what do I do during the 2 weeks + when he is not chasing. Taking him to the field everyday and hope the switch comes on? Do I feed him on the lure in the field after he does not chase or bring him home for a feed on the lure? Skip feeding a day?

[bami]

I usually just keep going to the field and if he doesn't chase I just come back to my Mr. Frosty routine. I don't use a lot of baggy, but I am sure that a very clever set up baggy will be a great help. I just wonder which part of the world do you live. I live in Thailand and it is very warm so take my bird weight down quite low is not a problem. For a young tropical bird of prey like a shikra or a crested goshawk, one start to click when the weight sometimes goes down lower more than 20% of the fat weight.

[falcon3d]

DAY 109

it's been a while since I posted in this journal. My male Shikra was doing great up to the point of entering. Had a lot trouble getting him to go after wild quarry. In any case, I had to leave him with my falconry mentor for 1 month (due to work travel). He sat on a perch in an indoor mews (with other birds but separate via side shelving). He is at 156g with furniture - as heavy as he has ever been. Looks healthy but has clearly gone wild. He bated away when I picked him up. He sits on the fist, but very worried (those big wide eyes). I am going start reducing some weight and start the process of reclaiming him. I will attempt to simply carry him on the fist and some indoor manning until he starts taming down again. Then will attempt to get him going after some wild game once he has built up some fitness. One of the good things that happened during my 1 month away, is he stopped food screaming - which could simply be due to the fact that he is really fat. But I am hope stays quiet. He will stay in an outdoor mews for the rest of the season.