PDA

View Full Version : Electronic 3-186 A



Saluqi
07-13-2016, 04:15 PM
The website is down, our state falconry coordinator sent this to me today:

Hi Paul,

Iím not sure if you heard or not, but the website is down for falconers to fill out the 3-186A forms. Jerry from USFWS sent me the below email.
If you could help spread the word I would appreciate it. J



Hi Monique,

The website will be down for an unknown length of time. In the meantime I suggest you have him fill out the .pdf form. He can access it here: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-186a.pdf

He should send you a copy and also one to me at the address below. Once we have the site back up and running, we can enter the data at that time.

Sorry for the inconvenience,

Best regards,


Jerry E Thompson
National Migratory Bird Permit Coordinator
US Fish and Wildlife Service


Thanks,
Monique White

COMEAUX
07-13-2016, 04:36 PM
I called the New Mexico office about it and was told to send it to my state office and not to them,because it would just sit on someones deskfrus). I called the Texas Parks and wildlife office and was told not to send it to them,just wait until the site is back up.frus)frus) I did fill out a 3-186A for my records:D

Steve Jones
07-13-2016, 04:52 PM
I wouldn't wait for the web site to come back up. You only have 10 days from the date of the transfer to file it, and there is nothing in the law giving you an extension if their sight is down. If the bird is going on a falconry permit mail it to your state, not the feds.


(6) Acquisition, transfer, loss, or rebanding of a raptor. (i) If you acquire a raptor; transfer, reband, or microchip a raptor; if a raptor you possess is stolen; if you lose a raptor to the wild and you do not recover it within 30 days; or if a bird you possess for falconry dies; you must report the change within 10 days by entering the required information in the electronic database at http://permits.fws.gov/186A or by submitting a paper form 3-186A to your State, tribal, or territorial agency that governs falconry.

joekoz
07-13-2016, 05:02 PM
I wouldn't wait for the web site to come back up. You only have 10 days from the date of the transfer to file it, and there is nothing in the law giving you an extension if their sight is down. If the bird is going on a falconry permit mail it to your state, not the feds.

Couldn't agree more and my suggestion would be to go one step further and send it certified mail with a return receipt requested!

jdrmd
07-13-2016, 05:25 PM
Here in Georgia you register with the feds online and then email a copy of the 3-186a to the state. At least that is how it was done last year.

gemiller
07-13-2016, 06:04 PM
"Called USFWS today about registering the falcon. I asked if I should mail in or fax the 3186-a to my local office. They said not to do either one and that as long as I have notified my state game and fish office, I was legal until USFWS gets the system up again."

That was posted on a Facebook group I follow on the 11th.

Steve Jones
07-13-2016, 06:25 PM
"Called USFWS today about registering the falcon. I asked if I should mail in or fax the 3186-a to my local office. They said not to do either one and that as long as I have notified my state game and fish office, I was legal until USFWS gets the system up again."The law states you have to file it within 10 days of the transfer. The USF&WS can not give you permission to break the law. All that essentially happened is that one person gave you a verbal notice that they would not prosecute you for breaking the law. Do you trust your future to that person's word? The only way to guarantee you won't be prosecuted is by not breaking the law, and the only way to do that, with the site down, is mail the paper form to your state.

460shooter
07-13-2016, 06:40 PM
Couldn't agree more and my suggestion would be to go one step further and send it certified mail with a return receipt requested!

That's EXACTLY what I'm doing. Not taking ANY chances on this. I don't give a rats ass if it sits on a Fed's desk. Not my problem. I mailed it in, I have proof they got it, not my concern what they do with it from then on. If I get "audited" 5 years from now, and they ask why they don't have paperwork for my bird, I doubt that a response of "Well, your computer system was down." is going to be acceptable. NO WAY I'm leaving this one to chance.

gemiller
07-13-2016, 07:40 PM
The law states you have to file it within 10 days of the transfer. The USF&WS can not give you permission to break the law. All that essentially happened is that one person gave you a verbal notice that they would not prosecute you for breaking the law. Do you trust your future to that person's word? The only way to guarantee you won't be prosecuted is by not breaking the law, and the only way to do that, with the site down, is mail the paper form to your state.


And what about the states the digital format is the appropriate method? Our state's instructions mailed to us last year specifically state to do it on the USFWS website then to mail a copy of the submittal page after you submit it to the special permits office.

So regardless, it's not possible to be compliant if the site doesn't work with my state.

Anyhow, it has nothing to do with me if you read what I said. Just copying a post I had seen go up about the topic, nothing more.

"Am I required to submit a 3-186A online?
Yes, regulations require online submission of a 3-186A. If the site is down or computer error prevents the 3-186A from being submitted online we do allow for submission via email or postal mail."
That was directly pulled from a Online 3-186a System FAQ document I found.

jdrmd
07-13-2016, 07:51 PM
And what about the states the digital format is the appropriate method? Our state's instructions mailed to us last year specifically state to do it on the USFWS website then to mail a copy of the submittal page after you submit it to the special permits office.

Those are the exact instructions I received here in Georgia except the woman at the special permits office requested an email copy sent to her. She replied to my email with a confirmation of receipt.

raptrlvr
07-13-2016, 08:06 PM
I am the one that called USFWS office in Albuquerque and ask them if I should mail in the 3186-a or fax it to them.They said not to do either one and told me to send a copy of my 3186-a to my local game and fish office which I did. My state has all the evidence that is required for me to be legal. My state is the one that is issuing the band and I ask the USFWS if I was legal. He told me that I was completely legal. I talked to my state representative and informed her of the conversation and she told me to fax her a copy of the 3186-a to make sure we were covered. Personally, in my opinion there is nothing the Feds could do to make me look wrong on this issue.

460shooter
07-13-2016, 08:16 PM
I believe at this point, it is one of those things where ya "do what you feel comfortable with". I first ran into falconry when I was 8 years old, and it was a lifelong dream to practice falconry. Now that I have my license and am able to practice this sport, there is NO WAY that I could leave this situation up to a "he said she said" type of scenario down the road. But that's just me. I guess I just don't trust people very easily, and want to make sure I cover my own butt.

Lowachi
07-13-2016, 09:27 PM
so te site is down nation wide?

raptrlvr
07-13-2016, 09:48 PM
Rich, yes and they have no idea when it will be up and running. With the documentation I have done with my state and contacting USFWS and following their instructions, there is not a court in the land that would back any legal action that USFWS would pursue on this issue. Its going to be a mess for a while because this is the time of year that people acquire birds from the wild as well as purchasing birds from breeders. I tried for several days with no luck before I contacted my state office and was told the system was down. Tomorrow is the 10th day since I got the peregrine.

Lowachi
07-13-2016, 10:18 PM
thanks Jim

goshawkr
07-13-2016, 11:04 PM
I wouldn't wait for the web site to come back up. You only have 10 days from the date of the transfer to file it, and there is nothing in the law giving you an extension if their sight is down. If the bird is going on a falconry permit mail it to your state, not the feds.

Actually, there is.

The USFWS are not allowed to cite you if you make all reasonable efforts to fulfill your paperwork requirements and they are not able to accept them. This is not codified in the falconry regulations, but its there in the general laws that they have to abide by. Asking you to print out and mail in a 3-186a would definitely count as a reasonable efforts during a server outage though. And actually, they are not allowed to cite you over petty minor administrative oversights either - like filing a 3-186a on day 11 instead of on day 10 (I don't suggest that anyone pushes their luck with that one BTW).

Not that this will absolutely stop some of the @#$E%%#@ fish cops from trying mind you, but it wont stick to anything if they do. Of course, the reasonable folks in USFWS would understand any delay do to the site being down.

Ultimately, as licensed falconers, our responsibility is to get the data to the state. And the states are required to then get the data to the feds. So the suggestion to send paper to both the state and USFWS has no legal backing. Not that it hurts to be nice if you want to. But my answer to a USFWS agent asking me to mail them a copy during their server outage would be to politely refuse, and direct them to my state office.

Whatever anyone decides to do during the outage - keep a record of it in case you are hauled in front of a hearing magistrate or a judge over it. If you are following the advice of your state official, get it in writing with their signature (or their email) if possible.

dboyrollz76
07-13-2016, 11:35 PM
USFWS appears to be loosing their grip. they are having a personal issue. They no longer have a director to run the site.

Ken S.
07-14-2016, 08:26 AM
I can't see any harm in filling out the form manually and mailing it in... (like we've been doing for many many years)! BUT... on the other hand, if you decide not to file anything and just wait until the system comes back online, well, as others said I think there's some potential risk for you. And the printable PDF 3-186a form on the Federal website is the approved format and contains the same information as the web version, I can't quite go along with an argument not to use that because of some state specific language around the process of using the new web/online system.

wyodjm
07-14-2016, 08:46 AM
I can't see any harm in filling out the form manually and mailing it in... (like we've been doing for many many years)! BUT... on the other hand, if you decide not to file anything and just wait until the system comes back online, well, as others said I think there's some potential risk for you. And the printable PDF 3-186a form on the Federal website is the approved format and contains the same information as the web version, I can't quite go along with an argument not to use that because of some state specific language around the process of using the new web/online system.

I agree. I'd include a very short, dated cover letter to document why you're mailing in the form. And, as someone suggested, when mailing in the form to your state and regional federal office always send it registered mail, return receipt. Save the postal documentation. Cover your bases and cover yourself.

When filing falconry related paperwork, never leave anything to chance. Always protect yourself with dated paperwork and never rely on a phone conversation. There's simply no documentation.

This should be no big deal.

Icantmove
07-14-2016, 09:52 AM
Geoff, can you link me to something that discusses the general laws you say limit USFWS? Or the laws themselves? I haven't heard of these, and would like to know more.

raptrlvr
07-14-2016, 09:53 AM
Obviously people can't read. I stated that I called my USFWS office and they said not to send in the form or not to fax it.

wyodjm
07-14-2016, 10:34 AM
Obviously people can't read. I stated that I called my USFWS office and they said not to send in the form or not to fax it.

Hi Jim:

I hope you weren't referring to me.

There are 8 FWS regional offices scattered throughout the country, 9 if you include the Washington D.C. office. As you may be aware of, each of the regional offices acts and functions as if they were a separate country! This is no exaggeration. There is plenty of current and historical documentation to support this.

I suggest that what the Albuquerque office (Region 2) says may not fly in the regional offices in Atlanta, Denver or D.C., or vice versa. Each regional office has their own interpretation. That's just been my experience over the years. And furthermore, the feds have kept their administrative authority over eagles. If I was going to transfer an eagle held under the authority of a falconry permit to another person, I would, without hesitation, send a copy of the form to the feds in addition to my state. Within the 10 day time frame.

But, here's my qualifier: I would do this because the federal electronic site was down and I was being prevented from filing electronically. And as I suggested earlier, I don't rely a whole lot on undocumented telephone conversations. But that's just me. It's polite and you're not getting in anyone's face. You're just filing paperwork to cover your tracks.

All my best.

Icantmove
07-14-2016, 10:40 AM
... I don't rely a whole lot on undocumented telephone conversations. But that's just me.

They make free call recording apps.

raptrlvr
07-14-2016, 12:47 PM
Dan, I was just venting for the moment. Sorry if anyone took it personally. But, right after that, I printed out the 3186-a form that I already had saved and ran down to the Post Office and sent it in certified return receipt. Now there is no way anyone can say they weren't notified in one way or another. Thanks everyone for the advice. Now this peregrine has so much paper work, it won't be able to fly.

goshawkr
07-14-2016, 12:48 PM
Geoff, can you link me to something that discusses the general laws you say limit USFWS? Or the laws themselves? I haven't heard of these, and would like to know more.

Love to Chesley,

Unfortunately, the general laws are very complex. Thats why there is a huge industry, the law profession, to understand them. And the lawyers seem very adept at making sure there is plenty of reason for them to continue to have a job.

And to be crystal clear, I am no lawyer. But my response earlier in the thread was summing up what I have been told by lawyers over similar issues.

One place that I would recommend starting is to review the general permit provisions that apply to all USFWS permits in 50 CFR 13: http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title50/50cfr13_main_02.tpl

xjturnerx
07-14-2016, 12:49 PM
So not wanting to be that guy. But..... What if.... In the words of general Ackbar "it's a trap"


Star Wars for those of you who didn't know

Isn't this the time of year when breeders and falconers are having to report a large number of birds moving around. And then the system is down? Just saying

wyodjm
07-14-2016, 02:15 PM
Dan, I was just venting for the moment. Sorry if anyone took it personally. But, right after that, I printed out the 3186-a form that I already had saved and ran down to the Post Office and sent it in certified return receipt. Now there is no way anyone can say they weren't notified in one way or another. Thanks everyone for the advice. Now this peregrine has so much paper work, it won't be able to fly.

No worries Jim. I understand. I'm picking up a new female anatum peregrine in Idaho in August. On my way to Idaho, I'm going to spend a week fly fishing in Wyoming. Life is good, no? In spite of the federal electronic filing system being down!

Have fun with that peregrine.

All my best.

raptrlvr
07-14-2016, 03:07 PM
Thanks Dan. I told myself that this will be my last peregrine. We don't really have the ducks unless we have a really good monsoon season and so far this year we have not had the rains. After this peregrine, I will stick with hawks and my eagle and concentrate on ground game. Wish I was going fishing with you.

rkumetz
07-14-2016, 05:38 PM
Now there is no way anyone can say they weren't notified in one way or another.

You are kidding, right? USFWS won't be able to say that? The same people who asked me how my falconry bird could get across the Canadian border if I don't bring it there in my vehicle? frus)

They can and may say that they were not notified but you were smart enough to meet the burden of proof.

rkumetz
07-14-2016, 05:40 PM
So not wanting to be that guy. But..... What if.... In the words of general Ackbar "it's a trap"


Star Wars for those of you who didn't know

Isn't this the time of year when breeders and falconers are having to report a large number of birds moving around. And then the system is down? Just saying

Are you by any chance one of those people who believe that the moon landings were staged in a Hollywood sound studio and never actually happened? confusedd

Remember: Just because you are paranoid does not mean that they are not out to get you.

xjturnerx
07-14-2016, 07:58 PM
I'm just saying. No matter what the states say. Send in a paper copy. Takes a little more work but the online shit is new so it's not like y'all haven't done it before. Hate to have to tell anyone I told you so. But I will get some joy out of doing so

460shooter
07-14-2016, 08:11 PM
I'm just saying. No matter what the states say. Send in a paper copy. Takes a little more work but the online shit is new so it's not like y'all haven't done it before. Hate to have to tell anyone I told you so. But I will get some joy out of doing so
Don't worry Jordan. If anyone DOES get busted down the road because they didn't fill out the paper form and send it in, after this thread, said person will NEVER admit to it! Some may be willing to take the chance, but there is no way in hell it'll be me. I've seen DOW officers that didn't even know falconry was "a thing". They had to call my license in to their supervisor because they thought I just made up a license to bluff my way out of having an "illegal hawk in my possession". No way I'm taking a chance with those kind of people enforcing the regs.

jdrmd
07-15-2016, 07:44 AM
So, sending a paper copy is better than sending an email copy with a confirmation email from the recipient? I can see wanting to send it certified mail but I just don't see how that is better than sending it via email with confirmation. Much easier for everyone involved...

Maybe I should get my chisel out, make a stone tablet and send it to the state officials:D

460shooter
07-15-2016, 10:27 AM
So, sending a paper copy is better than sending an email copy with a confirmation email from the recipient? I can see wanting to send it certified mail but I just don't see how that is better than sending it via email with confirmation. Much easier for everyone involved...

Maybe I should get my chisel out, make a stone tablet and send it to the state officials:D
Hey John. Sorry, I didn't mean my post to be directly to, or about, you if you took it that way. It was just about people in general that decide not to do anything. I agree with you that an email, with a confirmation email in return, would suffice just as well as a certified letter. In all reality, the email isn't a bad idea because then you have proof of what was in the email. Certified letter receipt just shows you sent "something" to them.

Although the chisel and stone tablet might not be bad idea either, as long as you sign it in blood!

jdrmd
07-15-2016, 12:09 PM
Although the chisel and stone tablet might not be bad idea either, as long as you sign it in blood!

:D

raptrlvr
07-15-2016, 02:35 PM
Well, today I received the envelope from NM Game and Fish that was supposed to have the band in it. Unfortunately, there was no band in it. Because the band is not flat, the machines that sort the mail at the post office pushed the band out the side of the envelope. The envelope should have been marked non-machineable, but, it wasn't. I retired from the post office, so, I know that the mail that goes through the OCR machines must be flat because of the high rate of mail that goes through the machine per second. I contacted NMG&F and another band is on its way. I haven't even started flying this bird free and its being re-banded.

Lowachi
07-20-2016, 08:21 PM
for anyone interested, site still not functioning

Hawkmom
07-20-2016, 10:30 PM
Certified mail with a return receipt will hold up in a court of law. It is the most recognized method of sending important documents. I've taken the time and have done it for decades. It is still to this day the best method for sending traceable documentation.

COMEAUX
07-21-2016, 12:45 PM
I called the FWS Migratory bird permit office in NM Monday,talked to Katy she is the only one there now.She said the guy handling the 3-186A forms retired and she does not know IF any one is going to replace him. She told me she would contact the main office and let me know what to do,did not hear from her so called this morning and she said to wait until the site is back up that they are aware of the problem and I will not get into any trouble. I got her to sent me an email stating this to cover my ass! I forward this email to the Texas office,but she is out until Monday. Here is the email she sent.

goshawkr
07-21-2016, 01:56 PM
I know this is confusing for a lot of people because our interest is in hunting with hawks, and not figuring out the nuances of red tape. Particularly since the red tape changed about 10 years ago, and since we all know we can loose our ability to hunt with hawks if we trip up in the red tape.

But what Katie said in that email to Chris Comeaux is right on the money, and it applies to all the USFWS.

Let me sum it up -

For falconry - the only agency you need to worry about is the State/Tribe/Territory that issued you your falconry permit. They are the ones that administer, regulate and oversee falconry. Yes, there are still federal rules, and the feds can in some situations enforce them - but you answer to the state and the state alone. So during this outage, contact your state and do whatever they tell you. Although you should also bear in mind, the state is responsible by law for providing data to the USFS, so if your state asks you to send stuff to them, I would suggest you politely remind them that this is their job.

The advice to have those instructions documented is still very much applicable. As is the advice to keep proof that you followed those instructions, along with your copy of the 3-186a. If anyone from the USFWS ever questions what you did, you can politely refer them to the state. You are innocent until proven guilty, but you still have to be able to counter the "proof" of guilt from the fish cops with something more than a smile.

For Breeding - The old two tier system still applies. Or I should say it can. In my state, for example, there are no state level permits or paperwork, we just deal directly with the USFWS. If your a breeder that needs to file a 3-186a, you still will need to contact your regional USFWS office and ask how they want to handle the outage, in addition to whatever your state wants you to do.

jclarkson
07-23-2016, 09:28 AM
Hello,
I have been trying to fill out some 186-a forms on the USFWS online reporting system, it keeps saying the page I'm looking for is unavailable. Is anyone else experiencing difficulties with that site? I'm just wondering if it's something wrong on my end. Thanks.

460shooter
07-23-2016, 10:08 AM
Yeah Jon, there is an issue. There is another thread on this in the "general falconry discussion" area. Basically they are saying to either email or snail mail the form in, then of course I'd keep a copy for your personal records.

SkyRider
07-23-2016, 10:14 AM
Jon,

Here is the post Paul referenced (http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=24331)

Hope this helps. It's being used as sort of an "Is it up yet?" thread now. But it's got some good advice on how to mail in your form to make sure you're covered.

jclarkson
07-23-2016, 12:55 PM
ok thanks guys, I'm glad it's not just me I thought I was going crazy. I will just mail in my copies like before.

COMEAUX
07-27-2016, 03:34 PM
OK I got an email from the Texas office today,so I'm waiting for the site to come back up

FredFogg
07-27-2016, 07:20 PM
OK I got an email from the Texas office today,so I'm waiting for the site to come back up

God forbid if a state would accept paper forms and then manually enter them in once the site is back up, that would mean the would have to do something!

dboyrollz76
07-27-2016, 07:47 PM
God forbid if a state would accept paper forms and then manually enter them in once the site is back up, that would mean the would have to do something!
Our state director, told us to mail in a paper 186-a.

FredFogg
07-27-2016, 09:46 PM
Our state director, told us to mail in a paper 186-a.

Goes to show everyone that they better check with their state!

Also, I sure hope everyone printed out a copy of each 3-186 they filed on the federal system since its inception because I have a strong suspicion that when the system comes back up, the old data will be mysteriously lossed.

rkumetz
07-27-2016, 09:53 PM
God forbid if a state would accept paper forms and then manually enter them in once the site is back up, that would mean the would have to do something!


Fred you are a curmudgeon. :D

SkyRider
07-27-2016, 10:15 PM
Fred you are a curmudgeon. :D

Hey! I know that word :D

dboyrollz76
07-27-2016, 10:48 PM
Goes to show everyone that they better check with their state!

Also, I sure hope everyone printed out a copy of each 3-186 they filed on the federal system since its inception because I have a strong suspicion that when the system comes back up, the old data will be mysteriously lossed.
I've been pondering this for about a month. The Obama administration handed a lot of stuff back over to be controlled at a state level. Then you here that the feds are no longer funding inforcement of the MBTA. This leaves me to wonder if the online sight will ever come back up. If this just isn't some discreet way of fullfiling the change to hand everything back to the state. If it was a big concern of usfws usfws wouldnt you think that they would have someone to fill this position, befor said person retired, left or whatever the case may be. Just seems to me they would be a little better organized than this. If it was of importance, that position would have been filled by now.

Ducksanddogs
08-01-2016, 10:50 PM
Montana said to fill out the MT-186a and mail it in to Mike. He'll update everyone when the site is working again.

FredFogg
08-02-2016, 06:45 AM
Fred you are a curmudgeon. :D

Actually, I'm not! :D

Hawkmom
08-02-2016, 10:27 PM
OK everyone. Fill in the form, Date it. Keep a copy for your records. I am still sending mine in to FWC (certified mail, return receipt). And simply do not depend on the 'cloud' or whatever they call the internet nowdays to keep your records. A paper copy in your files will hold up in case of a dispute. That way you are fully in compliance.

I know that the USFWS site is full of problems, before it stopped working. It kept on telling me to use Internet Explorer, which does not work with my Macbook Pro. Why they kept that damn obsolete program for the keeping records is beyond my comprehension, when Firefox is current for all computers and FREE!!!!

Lowachi
08-02-2016, 11:11 PM
got my return requests back... copies on file in 2locations. Ready to go

dboyrollz76
09-13-2016, 09:46 AM
I heard yesterday from Kansas Fish and wildlife, that the filing site most likely is gone for good! Anyone else hear this. USFWS no longer enforcing the MBTA and its all on the states now.

Saluqi
09-13-2016, 10:05 AM
I heard yesterday from Kansas Fish and wildlife, that the filing site most likely is gone for good! Anyone else hear this. USFWS no longer enforcing the MBTA and its all on the states now.

Not true, because it is specified in the federal falconry regulations the electronic database will be resurrected/reconstructed. Don't hold your breath on when this might happen.

"(2) Reporting. (i) The State, tribe, or territory must work with us to ensure that the electronic 3-186A reporting system (http://permits.fws.gov/186A) for reporting take, transfers, and loss of falconry birds is fully operational for residents of that jurisdiction."

This comes directly from the USFWS nationwide raptor coordinator.

goshawkr
09-13-2016, 12:24 PM
Not true, because it is specified in the federal falconry regulations the electronic database will be resurrected/reconstructed. Don't hold your breath on when this might happen.

"(2) Reporting. (i) The State, tribe, or territory must work with us to ensure that the electronic 3-186A reporting system (http://permits.fws.gov/186A) for reporting take, transfers, and loss of falconry birds is fully operational for residents of that jurisdiction."

This comes directly from the USFWS nationwide raptor coordinator.

True, but the USFWS has never had to follow its own rules in the past. Why should they start now?

rkumetz
09-13-2016, 12:58 PM
True, but the USFWS has never had to follow its own rules in the past. Why should they start now?

Geoff is on the money. There is no time specified for making things work or fixing them so they can just say that it is their intention to fix it and go back to playing government employee strip poker or whatever they do.

FredFogg
09-13-2016, 02:18 PM
I am blown away that they don't have a backup of the database that they can't reload. Sure, maybe a weeks worth of entries would be lost but to say the database became corrupted and they can't recover it? Seems like I remember them being able to miraculously recover emails off a long ago server in the news! frus) Give me a backup of the database and I will create something better than the crappy system they had.

Captain Gizmo
09-13-2016, 02:24 PM
Fred,

Don't worry about it too much. The NSA has copies of all of it, they just don't want to talk about it.

Regards,
Thomas of the Delusions (we hope)

Ken S.
09-13-2016, 02:51 PM
I'm sitting here wondering what the heck could've happened that has the whole system down for so long. Or what's so hard about having people fill out an online form and submit it to a database? I've been in IT for over 20yrs, over 15yrs has been doing web development and custom application programming, so I have some experience in this area. I don't consider this as a very difficult system to build and support, considering it only has to service a few thousand users in total and typically won't have many people logging changes at the same time. I feel like I could write that application in a few days, and it would probably run for the next 10 years without having to touch it again. If the application server ever crashed (which would be maybe once or twice per year at most), a simple restart would take less than 5 minutes and it would be back again. And don't say it's about $$ because it probably would cost $10/month or less to have it hosted somewhere and monitored, backed up, etc. I can even think of a few commercially available software packages that could be used and avoid it being custom at all. Oh well... seems like a missed opportunity.

rkumetz
09-13-2016, 04:06 PM
I'm sitting here wondering what the heck could've happened that has the whole system down for so long. Or what's so hard about having people fill out an online form and submit it to a database? I've been in IT for over 20yrs, over 15yrs has been doing web development and custom application programming, so I have some experience in this area. I don't consider this as a very difficult system to build and support, considering it only has to service a few thousand users in total and typically won't have many people logging changes at the same time. I feel like I could write that application in a few days, and it would probably run for the next 10 years without having to touch it again. If the application server ever crashed (which would be maybe once or twice per year at most), a simple restart would take less than 5 minutes and it would be back again. And don't say it's about $$ because it probably would cost $10/month or less to have it hosted somewhere and monitored, backed up, etc. I can even think of a few commercially available software packages that could be used and avoid it being custom at all. Oh well... seems like a missed opportunity.

Federal agencies love to use contractors to do stuff like this. It is likely that the "responsible party" kept everyone in the dark in the name of job security and then found something more lucrative to do. Of course he was also probably annoyed with his employer so he didn't leave any notes on how anything worked......

I sometimes wonder if the incompetents at USFWS outnumber those who are just there to manipulate the system to further their own agenda. It is a toss up.

Saluqi
09-13-2016, 04:26 PM
Federal agencies love to use contractors to do stuff like this. It is likely that the "responsible party" kept everyone in the dark in the name of job security and then found something more lucrative to do. Of course he was also probably annoyed with his employer so he didn't leave any notes on how anything worked......

I sometimes wonder if the incompetents at USFWS outnumber those who are just there to manipulate the system to further their own agenda. It is a toss up.

Actually the guy who did the programming, Ramesh, is a USFWS employee. He was transferred to another division leaving his former post vacant. This system was beta tested in several states before it was rolled out nationwide. NM was one of the states and I made some comments, as did others here, what are you going to do? It's like the weather...

dce21b
09-13-2016, 04:33 PM
I filled out three forms. One for me, one for the state and one for the federal regional office. I sent both certified mailed with a received receipt and I kept the one for my own personal records.

This was my first time doing this seeing how I am in my first year as an apprentice. The advice I was given I saw on NAFA website.

Either way I have myself covered showing it was sent and received and I have my own copy. My state's coordinator said that should be fine.

dboyrollz76
09-13-2016, 04:50 PM
Actually the guy who did the programming, Ramesh, is a USFWS employee. He was transferred to another division leaving his former post vacant. This system was beta tested in several states before it was rolled out nationwide. NM was one of the states and I made some comments, as did others here, what are you going to do? It's like the weather...

This is what I had heard from our state director, the site isn't broke down. It's just shut off. No one to maintain it.

goshawkr
09-13-2016, 06:25 PM
I'm sitting here wondering what the heck could've happened that has the whole system down for so long. Or what's so hard about having people fill out an online form and submit it to a database? I've been in IT for over 20yrs, over 15yrs has been doing web development and custom application programming, so I have some experience in this area. I don't consider this as a very difficult system to build and support, considering it only has to service a few thousand users in total and typically won't have many people logging changes at the same time. I feel like I could write that application in a few days, and it would probably run for the next 10 years without having to touch it again. If the application server ever crashed (which would be maybe once or twice per year at most), a simple restart would take less than 5 minutes and it would be back again. And don't say it's about $$ because it probably would cost $10/month or less to have it hosted somewhere and monitored, backed up, etc. I can even think of a few commercially available software packages that could be used and avoid it being custom at all. Oh well... seems like a missed opportunity.

The only part about that system that makes it touchy to build or support are the very serious federal legal requirements for rention of records (although several high profile cases recently have proven those are more bark than bite...) and the need for it to be able to interface with 49 state systems. However, like you Ken I have been in the industry for 20 years and I could get both a solution to both of those problems identified in a single hour long meeting, and leave plenty of time leftover to have a fun nerf war with my co-workers.

I do hope that whoever takes a crack at fixing this will remember the data that is being protected is fairly harmless if any hacker runs off with it and not require such ridiculous security.

Mitch W
09-13-2016, 07:13 PM
The Department of wildlife in Oklahoma sent a email out stating that they had heard from the federal agency see below.
We are working on revamping the on-line reporting system, but it will be some time before it is available. In the meantime your falconers should send you a paper form. There is no need to send a copy to the service. They can find the form here: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-186a.pdf

I will let you know when the new reporting system is available. With any luck it should be in 6 to 8 weeks.

460shooter
09-14-2016, 06:48 PM
I was just sent an email by our falconry coordinator in Denver that we are now supposed to send in paper copies to the feds. I had already done this, through certified mail. I did it again anyway, and gave them the tracking number and time stamp from the first time it was delivered to them. I'm sure they've lost it by now anyway....

GreenHawk
09-14-2016, 10:05 PM
Strange,
About a month ago I sent my paperwork to both feds and state. Got my signed receipts back about a week later, and a week after that got a letter from the feds saying that they did not track birds anymore with my paperwork and a printed excerpt from the Fed Regs that handles reporting. Wonder if I need to resend mine just in case, or if it is only a regional thing?

460shooter
09-14-2016, 10:15 PM
Strange,
About a month ago I sent my paperwork to both feds and state. Got my signed receipts back about a week later, and a week after that got a letter from the feds saying that they did not track birds anymore with my paperwork and a printed excerpt from the Fed Regs that handles reporting. Wonder if I need to resend mine just in case, or if it is only a regional thing?

That's the problem. Every region says something different. Fed's say one thing in one area, then something else in another.

....why doesn't this surprise me???

Kinda like having 10 different IRS agents do your taxes. I'd bet some serious money that you'd get 10 different answers as to what you owe, or what your refund would be.

dboyrollz76
09-14-2016, 11:31 PM
The government pulled funding to enforce the MBTA it was turned over to the states! Just like so many other things that were turned over to the state level by the Obama administration! They set guidelines for the states to follow. But judging the health care system from state to state, those guidelines are as good as toilet paper.

rkumetz
09-15-2016, 08:11 AM
The government pulled funding to enforce the MBTA it was turned over to the states! Just like so many other things that were turned over to the state level by the Obama administration! They set guidelines for the states to follow. But judging the health care system from state to state, those guidelines are as good as toilet paper.

If you use those guidelines instead of toilet paper you are going to get your hands dirty.......frus)

FredFogg
09-15-2016, 12:01 PM
The government pulled funding to enforce the MBTA it was turned over to the states! Just like so many other things that were turned over to the state level by the Obama administration! They set guidelines for the states to follow. But judging the health care system from state to state, those guidelines are as good as toilet paper.

Can you guide me to where you obtained the information that the government pulled funding of enforcing the MBTA and turned it over to the states?

wyodjm
09-15-2016, 01:42 PM
The government pulled funding to enforce the MBTA it was turned over to the states! Just like so many other things that were turned over to the state level by the Obama administration! They set guidelines for the states to follow. But judging the health care system from state to state, those guidelines are as good as toilet paper.


Can you guide me to where you obtained the information that the government pulled funding of enforcing the MBTA and turned it over to the states?

I suspect the situation of the feds turning falconry administration over to the states is more in line as an example of an unfunded mandate, with a bit of a twist. In essence, the states don't have to administer falconry. However, if a state chooses not to, falconry simply dissolves and goes away in that state! Remember the deadline the feds gave the states to come on board by?

Typically, unfunded mandates concerning wildlife have historically involved states managing federally listed threatened and endangered species and paying the lion's share of managing those species while still under the federal managing framework. This has been the case for decades in the west. Example species are the grizzly and the wolf. Wyoming has literally paid out millions of dollars the past 40+ years to manage grizzlies under federal mandates with very little federal financial contributions. To add insult to injury, much of those management dollars Wyoming has spent on grizzlies came from sportsmen's dollars via licence fees.

The grizzly met the ESA management criteria for delisting over 30 years ago. I was on Wyoming's Grizzly Bear Management Group and helped author the state's original management plan.

Don't get me started on wolves!

The feds delegated the administration of falconry over to the states. Pretty much the same deal. Notice I stated the administration of falconry. The feds still maintain all of the power and authority. The MBTA is an international treaty involving the cooperation of foreign governments. The states have no management authority involving international treaties.

dboyrollz76
09-15-2016, 01:49 PM
Can you guide me to where you obtained the information that the government pulled funding of enforcing the MBTA and turned it over to the states?

https://www.congress.gov/amendment/114th-congress/house-amendment/347 Ok so i guess it's just section 2-a they stopped enforcing.

goshawkr
09-15-2016, 02:18 PM
That's the problem. Every region says something different. Fed's say one thing in one area, then something else in another.

....why doesn't this surprise me???

Kinda like having 10 different IRS agents do your taxes. I'd bet some serious money that you'd get 10 different answers as to what you owe, or what your refund would be.

You are right, they are shooting from the hip. But the law they all operate from is crystal clear:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=edba4b62edb8a420188be667473b83de&mc=true&node=se50.9.21_129&rgn=div8
50 CFR 21.29 (b) (ii):

(2) Reporting. (i) The State, tribe, or territory must work with us to ensure that the electronic 3-186A reporting system (http://permits.fws.gov/186A) for reporting take, transfers, and loss of falconry birds is fully operational for residents of that jurisdiction.


(ii)[This should be subsection (i), they messed up the numbering] If you are required to submit a report or other information under this section, you must either enter the required information in the electronic database at http://permits.fws.gov/186A, or at http://www.wildlife.ca.gov/FalconryReporting if you are a resident of California, or submit a paper form 3-186A to your State, tribal, or territorial agency that governs falconry.
The trouble here is that none of them are really bothering to read it unless it comes time to persecute someone for going astray.

There really is nothing wrong with sending in a piece of paper to the federal regional offices, and NAFA's party line recommendation that we all do this is at worst a bit of overkill. However, the feds and the state cannot REQUIRE this. The law is simply laid out. If you reside in california, use that web site mentioned in the regs. For all the rest of us, while the federal reporting system is down send the info to the State. Its is then the state's job to pass it along to the feds.

If I was asked by a regional fed to send it to them, my response would be to politely point to the rules I just quoted and tell them that it is not my job. Its not that I am being confrontational, or obstructive. Its just that I have plenty of other things to worry about which are my responsibility and enough drains on my finances already.

I am sure the state agencies can apply a lot more pressure to get this resolved than we can.

goshawkr
09-15-2016, 02:23 PM
The MBTA is an international treaty involving the cooperation of foreign governments. The states have no management authority involving international treaties.

Thats true, but the USFWS has taken that authority to administer that treaty and run rampant with it. There are a lot of aspects to how the USFWS regulates migratory birds that have absolutely nothing to do with the international agreements or even the congressional act ratifying those agreements.

But I probably shouldnt get you started on that either. :D

rkumetz
09-16-2016, 05:52 PM
I had to send an email to region 5 and got an auto response with their official version of what you do when the electronic system is not working:



FALCONRY: The Fish and Wildlife requires electronic reporting of take,

loss, and transfer of falconry birds via electronic database at: https://
migbirdapps.fws.gov/Falconry/srv/index.htm (http://migbirdapps.fws.gov/Falconry/srv/index.htm). The Service stopped issuing
falconry permits 1/1/2014, please contact your state representative for
assistance with falconry matters. If the site is down, mail your form to
your state representative.

dboyrollz76
10-10-2016, 08:39 PM
Our local lady at game and fish, said She contacted USFWS to get a estimated time that the sight might be back up and running. She was told that they do not know, that it wasn't a priority! To keep sending her the paper 186-a.
all the info and talk seems to point to the fact that they are no longer enforcing falconry regulation.

wyodjm
10-10-2016, 09:16 PM
Our local lady at game and fish, said She contacted USFWS to get a estimated time that the sight might be back up and running. She was told that they do not know, that it wasn't a priority! To keep sending her the paper 186-a.
all the info and talk seems to point to the fact that they are no longer enforcing falconry regulation.

That is interesting. I know a state at this moment that has all of the mechanisms in place to allow falconers to trap eagles in documented livestock depredation areas and the USFWS is blocking the state from administering the program!

dboyrollz76
10-10-2016, 10:39 PM
That is interesting. I know a state at this moment that has all of the mechanisms in place to allow falconers to trap eagles in documented livestock depredation areas and the USFWS is blocking the state from administering the program!
That's eagles I hear they are still working that issue out. Also here they may dump on eagle wild take all together.

garfong
08-14-2017, 07:40 PM
I got this email back a few weeks ago:

Thompson, Jerry <jerry_e_thompson@fws.gov>
Jul 26

to me
Hi Mark,

We anticipate the site to be back in operation around the end of August.

Jerry E Thompson
National Migratory Bird Permit Coordinator
US Fish and Wildlife Service
5275 Leesburg Pike, MS:MB
Falls Church, VA, 22041-3803
Phone 703-358-2016

FredFogg
08-14-2017, 08:57 PM
Don’t hold your breath!

dboyrollz76
08-14-2017, 09:48 PM
I tried to log in a couple of weeks ago, couldn't find the book I had my info wrote in. So I emailed our state falconry coordinator to get my Federal ID number if she had it. She told me not to worry about it that USFWS has no plans to restore the sight! That I should just continue to send my form to her.

Breeze
08-15-2017, 07:57 AM
Seems like their site has problems on a semi-regular basis.