Imprinting

[tescobedo]

For those that have imprinted accipiters by not following the recipe, what do you believe are key factors in rearing well-mannered, aggressive game hawks?

[Saluqi]

Hi Tony,

Sorry this turned out to be a long post...


I've only imprinted one accipiter, a tiercel gos, and after reading McD's book several times I decided that I didn't want to use his method. He lives in a really game rich environment and his constant bagging while the bird is growing just naturally segues into multiple kill days once the bird is free flying. I figured it would really create a nightmare bird if I bagged it constantly while it was growing up and then couldn't get huge numbers of slips once out in the field for real, besides I didn't want to have to keep 100 pheasants for bagging. I talked with a bunch of falconers who I had heard were successful with imprnt accips and eventually I decided to try out Steve Laymans method of imprinting.

Without going into all of the details of what I did, I'll tell you what I shouldn't have done, as best as I can remember anyway.

Rule 1 - like your wife the bird is always right. Once when the bird was nearly penned, still living free in the house, someone dropped a red bandanna on the floor near his ledge. He dove off the ledge and mantled and screamed and wouldn't give it up for love nor money. As is usually the case, my time was short I had to be somewhere and I wanted to put him in a more secure enviroment while I was gone. I got tired of waiting him out and I pulled the bandanna away from him - big mistake. I should have just left him alone and gone on my business. After that incident he was suspicious of me when he had food and I'm sure I layed the groundwork for future problems with that single indiscretion.

Rule 2 - like your wife the bird is always right. Pay strict attention to the birds mood, if anything raises a flag that the bird is "out of sorts" chances are it is - don't push issues. Come back later, stop a session earlier on a positive note, end before it gets ugly.

Here's what happened when I didn't follow this advice - if I only knew then what I know now. It was early September, we'd been flying since mid-July, with no kills and I was frankly getting anxious for a kill (gotta watch that), anyway we were out at sunup and had several nice flights on bunnies with no catch. After one flight the gos landed in a low tree and on my way over to him I flushed a quail which he didn't see, but I knew there would be more around. I go to the tree and he won't fly to the fist, he has this weird far off look in his eyes, like "who the hell are you". I repeatedly call him, fist, lure, nothing will bring him down - now I'm getting pissed. By standing on a low branch I'm able to reach up into the tree for him to step on my fist and I grab a single jess, well he bates and I release the jess and he flys off a couple 100 yards and lands on a fence post. When I walk up he takes off before I'm 20 yards away, he flys a half mile and lands in some trees. It took me at least a half hour to coax him down from the tree. When I finally get him on the fist he's a fearful chittering, bating maniac - total meltdown.

In my selfish desire to go chase those quail I pretty much wrecked our relationship in that one moment. I should have just sat under the tree and waited him out, he eventually would have come down and things would have been better. I believe the key is patience, I think you almost have to have a zen like patience in situations where your brain is telling you something else.

Anyway, that was 2002 and we just finished our fifth season together and he's a super game hawk, very well mannered and very tolerant. I may try and imprint another this summer, but I have to ask my wife first...

Paul

[tescobedo]

Paul,

Thank you for the reply. I'm curious as to how folks raise imprints and the successes they've enjoyed.

Congrats to you and your bird.

[`Chris L.]

Paul, great post. I apprecaite you taking the time to write that up. I am thinking of doing an imprint this year as well and will keep in mind what you have written.

[tescobedo]

Paul,

Once the bird began branching where did you place the bird while you were gone or did you leave the bird alone?

[wesleyc6]

Imprinting is a lot of fun, isn't it!!! I have imprinted only two birds, but I enjoyed it both times. Once they started branching in earnest, I tethered mine in the house on a low perch. I did close the lid on the box for a few days and that helped, but I feel like you can only get a few days out of that and once they are branching, they need to row those wings and flap and such. One imprint ended up well for me and one was aggressive.

I think Layman's methods are much different than McD's, right?

[Saluqi]

I've been getting excited about the prospect of maybe imprinting another bird, so I've been thinking a lot about it, and posting yesterday was good to jog my memory.

I raised him in a clear storage box with two inch holes cut into it, I used to bring him to the office in that, and it served as his nest while at home. I'll post some pics later. When he got bigger, we rolled up our small area rug, we have a brick floor, and pushed the furniture back, and I set a 3' circle of 3/4" ply wood on top of a 4' post in the center of our family room (again, your wife is always right, especially when she lets you do what mine lets me do). Until the time he could fly he lived on top of that platform, my kids were 8 & 10 at the time and we had four dogs running around constantly. As soon as he could fly he was jessed and tethered, I used a pole perch in the house and he was free in the mews when I wasn't around.

Steve's way of imprinting is the a lot different than the recipe. The biggest difference is that you hand feed from day one, and it doesn't call for baggies like the recipe. With Layman's method you use operant conditioning techniques to reinforce good behaviors and ward off bad. There's definitely a steep learning curve and I think overall the recipe is easier to follow - and I'm not saying that following the recipe is easy, it's a ton of work - but I think Steve's way requires even more work because you have to learn operant conditioning, which at first seems straight forward, but it's one of those things where the more I learn I realize the less I know.

The other major aspect of the method is physical conditioning. Once the bird is strong and close to being penned you initiate an exercise regimen, vertical jumps, controlled bates, restrained pursuits, yo-yos. The idea is to put muscle on the bird and get rid of the baby fat, it acts to really kick the birds metabolism into high gear even in the heat of late summer. Entering is accomplished with frozen quarry, sounds crazy huh? I used a frozen cottontail (Mr. Frosty) as our "prey" and used as our target for restrained pursuits. I can fill in details of what I did if anyone is curious.

Take Care.
Paul

[Saluqi]

That's "Lou" on 06-04-2002, 3 days after being pulled, somewhere around 18 days old(?)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r253/Nafex/6-4_02.jpg


Here's him on 06-17-02, view from my old office.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r253/Nafex/day_35a.jpg

[`Chris L.]

Paul,
I am very interested in hearing about your ideas on entering him with the frozen quarry. If you would like to share it.

I have been talking to a good friend about imprinting and he suggests what you have in your picture. He said that the rubber maid boxes work gret. He also suggested always leaving food in the box as to not build a food association with me. he always like his imprints to be full. He always has the food in the same spot in the box. . He told me to take the bird to the food never bring the food to the bird.

What are your thoughts on that...

thanks for the great pictures

[wesleyc6]

Yep Paul, I had the same kind of container. My wife let me carry mine on vacation. LOL. Taking the bird to food is a big thing in the recipe too when they are young for sure Chris. The idea is simple really on the recipe if you haven't read his book yet. He believes in no food association, FULL exposure to everything from day one, and killing for food from the day it runs until it is released.

[Saluqi]

I was kind of on the fence at first with regard to food association, the nightmares that people always tell you about the birds attacking you and so forth, I was skeptical to feed by hand. I'm not sure there's a way to totally dissociate you - food - and the bird. If you're present when there's food then there's a food association, I think it's more of the degree of food association. Anyway, after a short time of trying to cover up that I was the source of food, I just dove in head first and fed by hand and it's never been an issue. Following Steve's method tidbiting by hand is part of the deal, the click and treat paradigm of Karen Pryor.

The bird was clueless the first several times with Mr Frosty. I thought I could toss Mr Frosty out in front of Lou and he would bate maniacally at it, but not so. I had to start slower, I'd tie a chunk of meat between Mr Frosty's ears and sit down in the lawn with him and let him walk over and find the meat and eat it, then I'd jump him to the fist for a pick up piece. Anytime while I was doing this if he'd show any aggression toward the rabbit, like footing or anything, I do the click-treat to reinforce the behavior. These sessions transformed into me having the bird on the fist and then flying down to Mr Frosty on the ground, to me tossing Mr Frosty and Lou flying down, to tossing Frosty and me holding Lou's leash for extended bate and so forth until the bates intensity grew and grew. Eventually he got intense and would pluck the rabbit and act like he was on a kill.

In terms of transfering this to the field, he chased bunnies from day one when I flew him. We chased and chased and chased, but it wasn't until I cranked his weight down a few notches that he got serious and started catching. I couldn't honestly tell if using Mr Frosty helped solidify a prey image or not, isn't natural for goshawks to chase rabbits? I think if you wanted to hunt a different quarry like ducks or crows using a frozen kill would go along way to introducing it.

Paul

[wesleyc6]

Paul,
what really is interesting to me on both ideas is how completely polar they are. I know Steve will actually work with an already aggressive bird to change it. Does Steve actually use a clicker to mark the action? Does he just mouth whistle? Last time he was down they invited me over, but I couldn't make it. He is a nice guy from what I have seen and heard. Definitely a pro at the operant conditioning for sure. Karen's book is a NEAT read. I train my dogs sometimes with a clicker for them to learn the action desire and then I finish the training with a pinch collar. Makes for an obedient dog.

[Saluqi]

Hey Wes,

They are kind of polar opposites. It's too bad because the Imprint Accipiter was such a great book, I just feel that it got too many people stoked to fly Coops and McD, in my opinion, didn't stress the committment and the importance of having a huge number of bags, tons of wild quarry to fly, and most important the necessity of not breaking this routine for anything. I think the result was life gets in the way of falconry and a lot of people were not able to keep up the routine of the recipe through the first season and lots of messed up birds resulted. Funny that his 2nd book is about dealing with screwed up accips.

Steve whistles, just a quick single note, I make a click with my tongue. It's a simple marker - conditioned reinforcer (CR) - as a substitute for the primary reinforcer (food).

Steve's a great guy and very generous with his knowledge, and light years ahead of me (and probably most folks) in applying these methods in falconry situations. I don't know that he would ever claim to "cure" a bird of aggression, but he can sure use his methods to control it. I think aggression is sort of like alcholism, once aggressive always aggressive, it becomes a matter of management and with time the bad behaviors will largely extinguish themselves.


Paul

[tescobedo]

Paul,

Thank you for all the details. It's good to hear that successful accipiters can be made from non-recipe approaches.

I travel to Albuquerque every so often for work. Hopefully I'll go out there during hawking season. If so, would you mind me tagging along on a bunny hunt?

[Saluqi]

Hey Tony,

Anytime your in town drop me a line and we can get together, I'm in the NAFA directory and the NM phone book, not too many Domskis in NM. I fly the gos usually starting in mid-Oct, but if I imprint another this summer I'll be going way before then.

Paul

P.S. What non-recipe method are you thinking of trying?

[wesleyc6]

Hey Paul,
You are right about the committment. It is a good book, I agree. It is a valuable book now too. LOL I enjoyed the time spent imprinting a great deal though. It is one of my favorite parts of my falconry so far too!

[tescobedo]

Paul,

I'm just curious about imprinting since most discussions revolve around the recipe and don't delve into limited baggies, calling and/or feeding on the glove, entering on various game, etc. I'd like to try imprinting a bird and information like yours makes the responsibilities seem more managable.

Thank you for the offer. My trips end up being in August and/or October. I'll see if I can work a week long training course in [smilie=icon_thumright.gif]

[everetkhorton]

The idea of imprinting a Cooper Hawk entered my mind. It has faded fast, because I just do not have the game I need for a Cooper Hawk. I have read a lot of articles. To me it has come down to, Plan your work and work your plan. It is a crap shoot to say the least with your first bird, but do it and learn and move on. Keep a journal so you do not make a mistake on the next one.

[tescobedo]

Ev,

I agree about working a plan. I'm fairly detail oriented and I'm certain imprinting a bird would ensure that my Type A personality is polished to a blinding shine [smilie=icon_thumright.gif] .

[goshawks00]

Hi Paul glad to hear from you. I got a couple of questions that I don't think you meantioned. Being that you fed openly by hand , did you experience any screaming issues once ot's weightwas cut. If so--- did it go away with time and exposure in the field?
I'm an admitted McD. type of imprinter, with many bags , but have done a few twists such as hacking, and using exercises as a way of 'burning up' some of the youthful exuberance which if not allowed 'out' will find other more destructive ways of manifesting it' self.
Barry

[Saluqi]

Hi Barry;

Yup, he did start screaming when his weight came down, but not hard core programed screaming. The first season was by far the worst with respect to screaming, I think that had to do with my mistakes and the rough spots early that first season.

Now, during the season he screams at dawn until the sun shines into his east facing window. As soon as it starts getting light out he'll hear me let the dogs out, or see the house light come on and he'll scream, but then once the sun is shinning he stops, unless I walk up to the mews. I don't like the term "calling" but it's kind of what he does to say, "hey, let's go out and hunt". In the field he's silent. In the winter during the week I generally hunt afternoons, when he hears the truck pull in to the driveway he starts up again screaming. One odd behavior, is in the evening when we're doing verticals and restrained pursuits and stuff he screams then - that I could live without, earplug for the left ear.

IF I pull an eyas this year I'll be using basically the same approach as I did before, but I will hack this bird. What age do you start the hack? How long do you leave them out? Do you use a transmitter? If so, how do you mount it?

Thanks.

Paul

[goshawks00]

Paul here is something I wrote a while ago...
At the bottom I will try to answer your other questions,
Barry

""The best part of summer eyas hacking is it's full fun time with no regimented rules to follow. There are no set rules that need to be followed because the hawk doesn't know any better and his whole mission is to learn to fly, use the wind to his advantage, learn to maneuver, and he will learn to chase things that try to get away from him, and possibly learn to escape things that chase him. Before they are ever released they have learned from earliest on what a lure is and that food is attached to it. They also have learned to come to a whistle much like chicks come to their mother when called. It may mean food , a where are you call , an alarm and possibly others. At our house during the summer there are always GKs hanging out with friends and the hawks love all the commotion that goes on with it. They will stoop the kids when they are down at the creek, land on heads while swinging, come in on them and lay down in the middle of the group when they are eating ice-cream on the rear deck. I put no restrictions on the kids other than to stay away from the roads, as many times the hawks will fly to them land on the ground and just run around like idiots with no care in the world. Oh yea--no picking them up , though they can offer a fist , arm or what ever to the hawk. If the hawk jumps up great if not they are not allowed to force the issue by pushing on the hawks body to MAKE them step up. All my hacked hawks are brought in at night and tied to a bow which is on a platform ( for the sharpies) or a bow on the floor for the goshawks. As soon as any hawk can stand it is tied to a bow, usually this takes place at around 15-20 days depending on the bird. They become comfortable with it and that is all they will know so bringing them in and tying them up at night is just another thing they have always known.
I can't say about a hack board, though, almost every year, we end up hacking out rehab K's and they will use it a little but within a few days they will be spread out where ever they want but will come in again for food,as we try to show no attention to them other than to feed them Then as soon as we can we start tossing food for them to catch and the GKs make big efforts to catch them big grasshoppers, the ones that or about an inch and a half long, and tossing them for the k's to chase. Eventually they will just leave and not come back. Even so we do have a male that will show up every once in a while and will take white mice that we toss for him to catch. He has shown up for four years now and every hacked hawk here will try to chase and catch him but none can and they so learn the wrath of a K if they stay out in the open long<G>""


OK the rest of the story or at least answers to your questions>>>G<<<


Start as soon as they can get around... creates independency( one of the reasons they scream)
I leave them out at least until hardpenned, which for a gos is about 60 days I think-(boy it's been so long since I have looked I forgot as 'penning isn't that important to the whole scheme of things) but have left them out to hack until the hawk is over 80 days before. Use a junk transmitter ( plan on bringing the hawk in each night) that you can take the battery out of ----they have never gone more than a 1/2 mile from the house--and do so frequently. I use an old Luksander Mewrlin special that one of the goshawks has stripped the antenna off of. Bewit to the leg for easy on and off, as the tail is not out of blood yet. hacking is wrought with dangers , go into it with both eyes open.
Barry

[Saluqi]

Thanks Barry. Sounds like your place is a fun place for kids (and falconers!) to hang out during the summer.

It's tough to take the leap and hack out a bird, especially a gos which are tough to come by anyway, I think it could be worth the risk. I hoping to pull a female this year, and maybe get her going on jacks, but we'll see. Started scouting for nests this past weekend, good habitat but no birds yet...

Paul

[goshawks00]

Not sure where you live but I worked with a guy last year and we hacked a tiercil gos on a friend's farm.... He just went there in the morning , gave it a bit of a crop, so it wouldn't scream and draw attention to it'self and left it. Then went back in the evening to gather it up for the day. He only stuck with it a couple of weeks but had no problems. He hunts out of the trees like you would a RT so he didn't have the problem of having to re-establish staying on the fist. Worked great.
Barry

[carlosR]

Hello I'm going to throw my two cents in on this; first thing is it is not a good idea to have a static plan that you follow blindly. You have to be flexible! I remember the hawks I tortured inadvertently back in my early days by blindly following the training laid out in some book or another. Sometimes things don't work out the way we plan and when they don't you gotta start asking yourself why? So have a general map of where you are going and don't be afraid to change and adapt.
I really like the "lazy days of summer" young goshawk hack. That's my plan this year.

[tescobedo]

Carlos,

That's exactly what needs to be said. I've never imprinted, but I got the disctinct impression from reading books and other forums that a single error created a monster. It appears that failing to read the bird's responses creates a monster moreso than inconsistent errors.

[goshawks00]

Tony actually all three methods you mentioned will work for malimprinting.
Barry

[tescobedo]

Barry,

One man's 'error' could be another's correct action. From what I've read, since I have no experience, is the bird will show what you don't know moreso than what you do.

[goshawks00]

Tony, this could turn in to an interesting thread... pease explain what you mean.
Barry

[wesleyc6]

You certainly have to be flexible in some ways I think, but it can't be completely fluid. I like to think I am a decent animal trainer. I have trained dogs well and hawks, but my coopers was great for a short time only and then blew up. I was trying to be as careful as I could. I am pretty sure I can read animals ok and was certainly trying to constantly read mine. My falcon this last time was near perfect. So I have tasted some success with imprinting along with gross failure.

I believe for the average person that there are certainly some do's and don'ts there. I mean somethings will probably always be an error. smile. Like picking him up and smackin' him. LOL Or forcing him to wear diapers and baby clothes. hehehehe

I am interested to see some of your ideas myself Tony. I also hope that you would be willing to chronicle your adventures with your imprint here on the site. It would be a great way for you to journal and a great way for us to see what you choose to do. I think we could ALL learn from it, I know I can!

See ya and best of luck!
Wes

[Jimmy]

Or forcing him to wear diapers and baby clothes.

Just because your bird didn't like the diapers, doesn't mean others' won't......... [smilie=smileys13.gif]

[everetkhorton]

Wes: I was thinking of imprinting a COHA this year. From what I have gathered it is a hit and mis deal. One thing that most people say is when that Coops give you the evel eye, back off and think of what is going on. Do not force the issue. You have to have lots of game to fly at and had time to be in the field. Remember I have not imprinted any birds. So take this for what it is worth. I know there is some bad spelling in this post but I have to be off.

[goshawks00]

Ev you are completely right. I wish you WOULD try a coop , you got the time , the game, and the resources to do it. Shoot you've gone to long without giving some blood back to the sport and band-aids are cheap<G>, why not give it a go.
Barry

[Lee Slikkers]

Barry, I dropped you a couple emails over the last few days. Just checkin to make sure they arrived or didn't get tossed into the spam bin.

Thanks,

Lee

[tescobedo]

Tony, this could turn in to an interesting thread... pease explain what you mean.
Barry

Barry,

What I was attempting to say is I have read other forums and books and each experienced imprinter has their own way or methodology for imprinting. Yet, I think it would be fair to say that they were all working to the same end - a properly imprinted bird.

If you had to be limited to 10 things to create a properly imprinted bird, what would they be if hacking (as mentioned above) was not an option?

[goshawks00]

Experience--- somewhere near thirty accipiters: gos/coop/sharpy/spar


1. no food association
2. exposure to everything
3. baggies asap
4. exposure to everything
5. proper understanding of weight control by the imprinter
6. exposure to everything
7. great lure control
8. exposure to everything
9. have the game in sufficient numbers so the hawk can learn to hunt
10. last but not least exposure to everything

11. added bonus by not a necessity hooding

Now then that's my 10, eveyone here that has made an imprint should add their 1 thru 10...., whether it was for a falcon or a shortwing.

Barry

[`Chris L.]

1. no food association
2. exposure to everything
3. baggies asap
4. exposure to everything
5. proper understanding of weight control by the imprinter
6. exposure to everything
7. great lure control
8. exposure to everything
9. have the game in sufficient numbers so the hawk can learn to hunt
10. last but not least exposure to everything

11. added bonus by not a necessity hooding

Now then that's my 10, eveyone here that has made an imprint should add their 1 thru 10...., whether it was for a falcon or a shortwing.

Barry

Barry,
Thank you for posting that. It is great to have expierenced imprinters post what they feel makes a great imprint. I look forward to hearing what others post regarding their ideas

[goshawks00]

Chris -- never done an imprint?

[wesleyc6]

Hey, I would like to see us qualify our experience too, so we know what we are looking at in everyone's list. Like, "I" know Barry has imprinted a lot, but not everyone knows him. Me, very little experience though. One coops and one falcon. The coops blew up and the falcon was near perfect.

1. I avoid food association the best I can since I don't understand Layman's method well enough to even try hand feeding.

2. I try not to frustrate the bird on purpose especially around food.

3. I try to handle them as much as I can, but I am done trying to handle while they eat I think. Just sit close for me.

4. All the food off the lure or game or baggies.

5. SLOW weight drop.

6. Tame hack type time. Meaning just letting them play and not worrying about weight at all, just using the natural hunger at feeding time.

7. I think exposing them to everything possible as young and often as you can is pretty key.

8. Raising them in the house.

9. Handling them the right way, as in not letting them stress.

10. Let my kids play with them a lot too.

[tescobedo]

Barry and Wes,

Thank you!

I hope other experienced imprinters add to the list and expand upon it. Sharing knowledge is the only way the sport of falconry will flourish.

[`Chris L.]

Chris -- never done an imprint?

Barry,

No not yet.. may be one day [smilie=dontknow.gif].

Wes,
anything you would have changed with the coops during your imprinting.. anything that you can maybe ID that may have turned that switch.

Thanks again guys for the info, its great to have a resource.

[wesleyc6]

Chris,
I think I would need to blow up a couple of more to be sure. [smilie=BangHead.gif] I have read Mike's follow up book and if he is on target or I should if his data is on target, I suspect I dropped mine too fast in weight, but maybe not low enough actually on the coop.

On the falcon, I was still feeding twice a day when he flew the first time. One day is was fluttering 10ft and the next day he lapped the field twice and sat in a tree. I had to get him. The next day, he went to once a day all he wanted and stayed there a while, then I slowly cut what he was eating, but not really weight. Just enough for him to finally be truly empty and that is how we flew for a while. On the coop, I dropped it 4 times that fast or more.

Barry,
Could you fly a coop on a tame hack like you do a falcon with NO weight reduction??????

[goshawks00]

I would have to say yes, though I have not done so. I did hack a sharpie and a couple spars before so I'm thinking based on that yes. It would would have to be abreviated as they get their schooling faster and would soon be 'on their own' without you there, and have to be manned back down I would think.
Barry

[kimmerar]

This is a very good topic and lots of info coming from it. Good read.


Barry - did the sharpie you hack scream. I wanted to hack the sharpie I hope to get someday. Mike McD says I don't have to and I might end up loosing the bird because we have coops here year round. He says the screaming is not to bad with sharpies.

[wesleyc6]

Barry with a tame hack, I mean that you take him out, let him fly and do whatever he wants for an hour or two or three and then call him to the lure for his daily feed and go home. I think you are actually talking about a traditional hack. I definitely don't have the "guts" for that. [smilie=icon_pray.gif]

[Shortwingn]

I have imprinted falcons, owls, and accipiters. They have been for both work and my own pleasure. Due to where I live a screaming bird will not work for me (I could spit on my neighbors houses from anywhere in my back yard). I have changed my thinking in a few aeras over the years. I have given up on trying to force issues, hooding and hunting for example. I am more conserned with leting the the bird come into to its own.
Anyway, here would be my 10

1. Food association made to the lure. As soon as the bird can lift its head I want them eating from the lure. I try to never make any association with myself other than being there when they eat.

2. Introduction to the hood. For some reason I use to think that a bird had to wear a hood. I have found that forcing the issue is big trouble. If the bird will wear it fine and if it dosent like it I stop. Falcons never seem to be a problem. With accipiters it seems to me its like hammering on a bomb.

3. Exposure to everything and anything. This really never stops through the birds life but is most intence for the first 6 months.

4. Never push any issues and keep things positive. If its not working try something else.

5. Baggies and food orientation. At first I use MMcD's of cut up food inside or on top of a whole prey item.

6. Increased exposure. More, more, more. Lots of people, dogs, horses, trains, automobils, ect. ect.

7. Calling to the lure. At first getting the chick to eat from the lure as much as it will. Then getting the chick to go to the lure. I bring the chick to the lure. When it will run I put the chick out and call it to the lure in as many diffrent situations as possible.

8. Weight control. At or around hard penning very gradual reduction of weight until I get the responce I need. I find it dosnt have to be too much.

9. Anti carring work. With the lure and baggies I constantly walk around, up to and touch the bird from day one increasing in intencity as the bird ages. I always try to have distractions going on, people, dogs, ect.

10. Bag work. A few lure pulls and a bag for game orientation. I have found it works best for me to get a gos or falcon to kill once a day for the first few months. Coops and sharpies I use the multiple method. I dont belive it compleatly nessary to use bags but it sure speeds things up.

11. Hunting. As soon as the bird will hunt I go for it.

I would have to say I dont think I have ever imprinted two birds exactly the same. They all seem to be a bit diffrent. I try to go with what is working at the time.

[virdz]

I will post what I said in the spanish falconry forum:
I like the McDermott recipe and the McElroy method also. For me and my hunting conditions in Mexico, calling to the fist is MANDATORY and here is where I pull away completely from McDermott. I start following the recipe, introducing the glove about midway it´s first season when the bird is hunting well (NOT BEFORE). I always give minuscule tidbits, at first the bird will be slow to come, but if you do your hunting in open areas, coming to the fist with a small tidbit is much faster and this will start engraving in the birds brain. By the end of the first sason the bird is coming readily from long distances in the open and OK from trees. If I stop hunting to molt my bird, I DON´T do jump-ups, I just hood the bird, take it out the porch for him to see people, cars, dogs and put a garnished lure in front (or a tied quail, etc.) THEN with the bird standing on its portable bow-perch I stand behind him and unhood him, the first thing he will see is the lure or tied baggie in front and jump to eat, meanwhile he is being kept tame because of pedestrians, dogs, cars, etc passing by. (For molting, the bird is kept tied to the perch and I raise the weight about 15-20% not more or the bird will be too wild for even this. If you abandon you bird hog-fat in a secluded chamber, better forget about this).
After the first moult, I start usual re-training and hunting as before, but start re-introducing the glove after a few kills, then if the bird´s behaviour permits, I start doing jump-ups (obviously not in the yard, perch, mews, etc.) about two days weekly, and here is where glove response really increases because of conditioned response (about 300 jump-ups per session, I ALSO do excersices calling the bird from a high perch directly down to the glove, this works othe muscles). In about a month of jump-ups AND hard hunting, the bird will be coming fast from above trees WITHOUT aggression or fist-binding. The key is to be patient and do it SLOWLY, adapting to the bird´s responses and backing up a bit if it starts getting possesive and resuming aftterwards. The process takes two seasons but is worth it. I´ve used this for 3 coops, an aplomado and a female brancher Finnish goshawk imported from Russia with EXCELLENT results (no agression for accipiters and no screaming for the aplomado). Another thing which I do different is that I let the bird gorge much more often than McDermott suggests, this makes the bird for longer and harder chases. I´ve seen his videos and I think his birds don´t chase hard and long enough the strongest birds (winter birds) and he even says in his second book that he has tried passage coops and he thinks they are more commited for long chases, I think this is mainly due to the fact he doesn´t almost never gorge on hard kills. Someone from Spain said he used to do almost the same as I but also he DID use a DIFERENT glove when calling the bird than when taking it, thus avoiding fist binding, but I´m still not sure about the details, he said he would explain latter.
I don´t suggest that this wioll work for everyone, it has simply worked for me, there may be other subtleties I´m not aware of which helped for success.

[Jack]

This is usually where I end up getting into trouble. I always open the door the wrong way.
Now, this is what I think, and it has proven to me at least to be the way it really is. All hawks are the same, and you can save yourself a great deal of grief if you admit that. I approach them all as if they were clones and I manage to do very well. I have to admit that I have only imprinted this one male goshawk. I am still not completely taken with the imprint, with the exception of mine of course. He is perfect in every way. There are a lot of things that are taken for granted, and a lot of things that are considered to be done without question. It is not rocket science at all, and all it takes is a little thought and consideration before you start imprinting. McD tries to alter the nature of the bird itself. This is not possible. What we can do is use and exploit the nature of the bird. With that in mind, in order to bag a young hawk, or use exercises to condition or form behaviors, you have to drop the hawks weight to a point to where it experiences real hunger. This is where you get the food scream. It is a given. And by not crowding the young hawk as it feeds, you exclude yourself from that process. But the fact is, the hawk then resents your very presents when it eats. We do it for one reason, but create another problem in it's place.
1. Never allow the young hawk to experience hunger. Never, Ever. Always make certain that there is plenty of meat in the food dish. It matters not if the hawk sees you place it there. Sooner or later he is going to see you do it anyway. So just keep it full. He will pay it absolutely no attention as without hunger he has absolutely no concerns.
2. When he does eat, get down in his face and watch him do so. Don't leave the room to avoid food association. He will not make that connection anyway. The only time he is going to make that association is when he is hungry and actively looking for food. Then it becomes a real concern to him. Avoid that.
3. Continue to allow this until he is past hard pinning. It will usually not be long before he stops eating and starts acting distant. This is the so called disbursal syndrome. BS. The hawk is fat now. Plain fat. Until now he has been utililizing all that fat toward development and feather growth. Now that it over with and the hawk is just fat. A sub adult hawk that is fat. His behavior will suddenly reflect this condition and you will then need to drop that weight back to a point to where the hawk is managable again. I had tried to work it down slowly, but you can not get a hawk to exercise for food that it does not want, and you just have to wait it out. I was starting to see some vocalizations, so I realized quickly that the slow process was going south on me fast, so I started dropping him quickly by simply not feeding him. The weight went off quickly and I could again feed him enough to satisfy his hunger. This curbed the vocalizing and now he is completely silent. He is as hard an imprint as you will ever see, and yet he does not mantle and scream like the vast majority of imprints.
4. Just give him the oppertunity and he will self enter on game. Mine did, and I never had to bag him. It is something that a goshawk does naturally. You get that weight right and he will do what goshawks do.
5. Tethering. In order to keep him in the house without his completely trashing the place, he has to go onto a perch. I waited until he was flying really good before I started tying him down. Big mistake. I should have started much earlier when he first started flying. He would have conditioned to it while the tail was still really short. He fought the leash because of the late start, and by the time he settled in with it the tail had been damaged. At present he is being free lofted and is doing quite well. I enter the mews each day and socialize with him. He is getting less and less like a young hawk and more and more like an adult. A hard imprint but you would not know it by his behavior.

Jack

[wesleyc6]

Nice post Jack. Your method is much like what Bruce Haak talks about in his book with the food. It is what I did on my falcon. He turned out great too! I believe in tethering young too and I believe in not reducing food until you absolutley must. I also agree the after hardpenning that is the first time they are truly fat. Kind of like a laying HH. She will eat you out of house and home. LOL

[goshawks00]

Wes as far as defining a tame hack, it's not done much with shortwings and accips in particular. I did write about a friend that has taken a hawk to a farm and released for the day... maybe that's way you are calling a traditional hack.
Then there are the guys , again mostly longwings that are released for day s/ weeks at a time then retrapped once they have learned some of their lessons--- those guys will call that the traditional hack.

What I have done is kind of different as they come and go as they please yet are taken up for the night, not just after a couple of hours.. One other advantage is the hawk doesn't need to be 'cut' in order to get them to respond, at least in the way that is usually ascribed. The way extra energy they burn causes them to lose weight which triggers the already established desire to kill. Soon they are chasing 'stuff' learning all the things that a person that hasn't hacked has to give his hawk the extra time to learn.. The difference is it's done quicker with a whole lot less hauling around ''looking'' for things to chase, that's one of the biggest things I hear folks whining about is 'high cover/hard to find game'.
You know me I've done a lot of imprints , I love them, but everyone has their own idea how to imprint. Some learn from experience, some stubble along. Some have done just one or two and think they have the corner on how to do it, but never take the time to prove their methods with more than one hawk or more than one species. That's ok the world is full of arm chair quarterbacks also<G>
.02
Barry

[buteoflyer2000]

I am so much enjoying this thread. I doubt I will ever do an accip, but the information is still invaluable. I'm going to be duel imprinting a FHH in June and will be looking out for some of these tips. I know a HH is not an accip, but the process can be much the same. Food association, baggies, etc. I like the idea of always taking the bird to the food and not the other way around. Several years ago, I started to work with a brancher RT (a rehab bird) I would set the food on the lure somewhere in the house and we would go "hunting". I always made the bird go away from me to get the food. I think I might do this with the new bird as well.

[wesleyc6]

Wes as far as defining a tame hack, it's not done much with shortwings and accips in particular. I did write about a friend that has taken a hawk to a farm and released for the day... maybe that's way you are calling a traditional hack.
Then there are the guys , again mostly longwings that are released for day s/ weeks at a time then retrapped once they have learned some of their lessons--- those guys will call that the traditional hack.

What I have done is kind of different as they come and go as they please yet are taken up for the night, not just after a couple of hours.. One other advantage is the hawk doesn't need to be 'cut' in order to get them to respond, at least in the way that is usually ascribed. The way extra energy they burn causes them to lose weight which triggers the already established desire to kill. Soon they are chasing 'stuff' learning all the things that a person that hasn't hacked has to give his hawk the extra time to learn.. The difference is it's done quicker with a whole lot less hauling around ''looking'' for things to chase, that's one of the biggest things I hear folks whining about is 'high cover/hard to find game'.
You know me I've done a lot of imprints , I love them, but everyone has their own idea how to imprint. Some learn from experience, some stubble along. Some have done just one or two and think they have the corner on how to do it, but never take the time to prove their methods with more than one hawk or more than one species. That's ok the world is full of arm chair quarterbacks also<G>
.02
Barry

Hey Barry,
Traditional hack to me, means that a person releases a bird and takes it back up a few weeks later when it doesn't come back for the meal. A tame hack to me is when you take a bird out and let it go for a few hours and don't expect it to do anything but be a bird. You don't cut the weight, because you have no goals really other than coming home with the bird. I would say what you do is a hybrid between the two and probably works awesome. How many birds have you tried this with now? All went well?

I think imprinting is so "mystical" that everyone likes to hear all experience. Even short experience.

I certainly know I don't know it all by any means. 1 for 2 in a good imprint isn't such a great record. I appreciate you contributing to this topic. You have a great deal of knowledge to share.

Finding game for my coops was really easy. I just carhawked to begin with. I think that is an easy way to find game. If I get the chance to do it again, I will try your hacking idea though. My tame hack was short with my falcon, but I think it is a big part of why he was such a good imprint.

[Jack]

I know I am one of those armchair quarterbacks, but I am only going by what I see the so called real quarterbacks doing. I can name 3 falconers right off hand that have lost birds to tame hack. They were taught to land on vehicles, and sometimes they might try landing on them at highway speeds. This has never crossed their minds as the reason either. Not to mention that it teaches the birds to chase all sorts of small stuff. No one uses the big hack bells anymore either. It is so much easier to wait until the bird is full summed and then take it out and kite the snot out of it. Teach the bird it's flight skills and footing by lure flying and kite flying. Teaching it to chase and catch the things you will be hunting rather than half the little birds in the wild. If you let a falcon fly about that is not at a good weight to learn, you are taking a big chance of losing it one way or another. Besides, I have seen the results of breaking in a new falcon on the kite and I think it is superior to any form of hack. Why let a falcon learn all those nasty little things that takes you another season to break them of?
From over 45 years of accipiter experience, I think I can duplicate anything I do, over and over again, with exactly the same results. There is absolutely no reason why I can't.

Jack

[goshawks00]

Jack-I have no idea how to hack a falcon which is everything you wrote about here so you may be right as far hacking falcons. But then again if only a few are lost or killed it is probably due to the SH factor or possibly not hacking them correctly? Or even the indinidual falcon? There is a vast army of longwingers that do it, I'd hate to think those that have done it for most of their lives and dedicated themselves to longwings don't know what they are doing...
They do some strange things in the hacks they do. I hate bells on any hawk and can't hear them anyways. So yea, there are risks in hacking whether long wings or shortwings, and a person needs to go in with a full awareness of the consequences of it. I have always , since I started hacking birds, been afraid of something happening to the hawk while they are out, and try to stack the odds in my favor, so far I have avoided, or rather they have avoided any injures or death.


Duplication--each hawk is different, even within a single nest not to mention different species. We are talking imprints here not some inanimate object . Whether you can or not is subjection, , the bigger question is do you have the proof? Ego and confidence are both long twisty roads to distaster. There are no so called experts but I do know what I've done , not what I hear others have done or what I think I can do. . Good luck on proving your theory<G>

[virdz]

This is usually where I end up getting into trouble. I always open the door the wrong way.
Now, this is what I think, and it has proven to me at least to be the way it really is. All hawks are the same, and you can save yourself a great deal of grief if you admit that....
Jack

Jack, interesting method, I always tether eyasses just as they start walking (of course NOT all the time, but a few minutes daily to get the used to the fact. The hood is introduced before they can stand up, I use an ultra-lightweight hood much bigger than the actual size, I put it on a few seconds before starting a meal (this gives me time to lpace food or take him to the lure or baggie) and has worked wonders.
I would only say that I don´t think all birds are equall, that is the reason some die and others don´t during their first year, that is why even when cast or group flying, one is the leader, another is faster, another is more aggressive towards their own genre and others are more aggressive towards prey, that is why some learn faster to resume the perch after bating, that is why some scream and others never due even when reared in cohort. To simplify a birds brain to the point of assuming they are al the same as clones, is to denigrate them to an amoebatic existense. Said that, UNLIKE longwings and possibly goshawks or shins, I feel if you imprint a coops and wait too much, it will eventually become wild, and there is also this window.. what a coops doesn´t accept during imprinting, it is very difficult he will accept later, eg. horses, cars, hats, water, etc. I also like to form a search image since young, it´s like "imprinting" them to what they will be killing later on, I´ve done it with/without baggies and for imprints, I must admit that using baggies has produced birds (especially longwings) much more oriented towards prey and needing less weight reduction to start them on killing. Examples are bat falcons given dead/live baggies since downies and the same which where´not given this baggies, the first started on birds ok and never attempted even to eat or catch insects, the latter could NOT even be flown where dragonflies or grasshoppers where because they would be chasing them all over. For both we used the same training methods.
Goshawks and coops are more instinctual birds, their problems are more oriented towards fear/aggression.

[Jack]

When I state that they are all alike, it is not to say that there are not differences in their manner or personality if you will, but that they are alike in what makes them what they are. The likenesses are what I use to work with them all. This is what makes them all trainable by one single method. If you go looking at differences you will have to develop a different approach for every single one of them. You can never achieve the same results that way. I learned this many moons ago, and it has made me successful in training every hawk I have taken up.
Another thing I keep seeing is that the concept of weight and weight control is still not excepted. Such as stating that a falcon under certain circumstances will not require weight reduction to get performance. This tells me that you do not fully understand the concept. Not trying to be an ass here, but the weight of your hawk or falcon determines exactly how it is going to act or perform. 100%, all the time. Knowing this, you can do anything with any hawk or falcon in existance. Hunger is a motivator, but it is not what effects the hawks over all performance or it's demeanor. What it does is cause the hawk to try to satisfy this hunger, but how it goes about it is determined by the hawks exact body weight. And this is what should be of concern to the falconer, because it is what we use to get perfect performance.
Now, as far as my proving what I am talking about. Well, it is no different from anyone else here. Proof is not something that any of us can produce. We can just be honest and offer it in the most correct and honest manner possible. We take it or we leave it.

Jack

[goshawks00]

Ha Ha Jack proof is very provable... one example..I know you stated that "this is what makes them all trainable by one single method" . If this is the case why were you unable to get LB to Accept the hood ? Maybe not enough weight reduction?

Yes they are all different and you do need to develop different approaches to be able to work around the differences. Sure the basic concepts are close but everyone is different.... and this is why.

Sure things are very provable you just have to be able to understand it. [smilie=sleepy2.gif] <G>
Barry

[Jack]

If this is truly the case, then I have proven to myself and possibly a few others that my method of raising a young hawk stands superior to some of the more commonly used methods. And my success over the years with passage accipiters goes to prove my methods once again for the passage hawks. Proof is only good if it is excepted.
Actually, LB was taking the hood quite well until he began to mature. When he became no longer a growing boy, developing and growing feathers, but became nothing more than a fat sub adult hawk, he started doing things that he had never done, such as fight the hood. I gave up on it until such time that I take him up again. I will approach him as if he were a passage hawk come fall and will make him to the hood just like I have with passage hawks. Because he is an imprint I have decided not to push the envelop on him so to speak. I will do it in due time, and when the time is most right.
Now, yes, I will use his weight to accomplish this feat. When I say weight is 95% of all your falconry, I believe it. A problem might not be exactly weight related, but you can use his weight to change or alter this problem. I think my experience with the wild taken birds has taught me more than a person can learn with imprints of any kind. When you trap a wild hawk that is in good flesh and health it requires some reduction in weight. This is the usual excepted process. Have you ever tried to man a hawk without ever reducing it's weight? To bring it to full tameness and be able to actually hunt with it? In all my entire career I have never been able to do that. So I know that it can not be done. Now, knowing that the hawk has to be reduced in weight to get results, one has to be able to put the ends of the string together on this. To realize that the hawks weight has to have something to do with it's tameness eventually. It is directly related, and knowing this, you can treat them all as one. Sure they are different, but one thing is for certain. A goshawk is a goshawk, and the very nature of the goshawk is what makes them what they are. If you play on the fact that one is less this or more that, they will indeed be individuals. But if you forget about these things and look at what is actually important, like the very nature of the goshawk, you can deal with them all as if they were clones. I have often been told that hawks are all different, but to save my life no one has ever explained to me just how they are different.
Take people for instance. Take 10 people, give them a sack of quarters and stick them into a room with nothing to eat or drink for 3 or 4 days, then let them out into a room full of vending machines. They all may be completely different. Muslim or Mormon, they will all start sticking quarters into the machines. If I were to try playing with the fact that they all have different personalities or whatever, I might never get one of them to stick a quarter into a machine. But by playing with their bellies I can get each and every one of them to stick their quarters into a machine. LB is not any different, except in possibly his personality or demeanor, and he will respond just like I expect him to when the time comes.
Today I was out in his mews checking his molt. As he stood and ate I went through his tail and counted the feathers left. He is perfectly silent, and has been since we started hunting. He does not mantle either. He does for a few minutes on a kill, but even passage hawks do that. He stands tall as he eats. Anyway, he is half done on the tail and has 2 feathers that are about 6 inches long. The wings have a single primary left to fall. a few secondaries left too. The rest are black feathers of varying lengths. He is starting to drop and replace body feathers too. Creamy white spots on the breast and back where they fell out, and black spots where some are coming back in. I fully expect him to be completed by the end of August. He only started about 5 weeks ago now.

[smilie=icon_pray.gif] Jack

[goshawks00]

[smilie=eusa_naughty.gif]

AS in all things this I know words are cheap , we shall see if your theory is true. I'm saying it won't work but time proves the silliness of mans ideas so I hope you are right.

[Jack]

Why would it not work? What is the reasoning behind your doubts? I have all sorts of skills, and hooding is included. I may fail. I have failed before. But I have all summer to lay out just how I plan to go about it. I will send you a picture of him standing tall to the hood.
I picked up another half dozen large body feathers this morning. He is well on the way to his new look. He will be the envy of all who lay eyes upon him.

Jack

[goshawks00]

Better yet why don't you tell us why you think after the molt you'll be able to hood him when he has already been given the chance and he showed you his dislike for it, and you 'gave in'. Nothing wrong with that, some battles aren't worth the trouble to overcome.
As far as ideas -- I believe they do have a BIG dislike because of not seeing what is going on yet knowing there is, because it didn't go dark all at once before he was hooded. It might be a fear thing being as he sees you as a possible mate or at least equal... and he has an inate fear of those that could possible do him harm. The I could also cite some ideas from Mike, but you have already told of your distain of his ideas.
Barry [smilie=eusa_think.gif]

[Jack]

I thought as much, and you are right, I do not put much faith into Mikes knowledge of accipiters. But afar from that, given that no one can offer me any reasons why it can not or should not be done, I will give it a go from here. First off, not liking the hood is not just a goshawk thing. Not at all. I have had a lot of hawks that resented the hood. The most difficult hawk I have every had to hood was a female Cooper's hawk. She fought like you would not believe. And it took me the better part of 2 years to figure out how to do it.
The major reason I backed off on LB was that I was dealing with too many issues at once. My whole effort was in creating an imprint that did not exhibit the ill behaviors that I have so often criticised in imprints. The main reason I was so against them. I did not take this project on to fail. I gave it everything I had. And force hooding him would not have been productive in that direction. So I dropped it. When he was young he would take the hood and showed to have no resentment at all for it. It was not until he started to hard pin that he started changing on me. Once that came about, he suddenly would not stand to the hood. I started to work with it, but then I noticed that I was losing ground in other ways. So I backed off. Now, when I take him back up, he will still be an imprint. He will still be tame to me. But, he will again become fearful of his surroundings as I first start working with him. While I have that advantage I will start hooding him. Once the hood becomes routine he will resent it less and less as time goes by. I will hood him until I wear the neck band off the hood. Food reward at the most appropriate times will also make it less resentable. And at that time the only issue I will be dealing with is that of the hood.
The whole idea is to keep him from focusing all his attention toward me and the hood. I will naturally have a very small window of oppertunity here, but I will be prepared and ready so that I can apply my all toward this objective during that small window. All I have to do is get him to take the hood, even if reluctantly. Eventually he will take it without any reluctance. Besides, I have seen too many goshawks with hoods on them to think it can not be done.


[smilie=icon_pray.gif] [smilie=icon_pray.gif] Jack

[goshawks00]

[smilie=eusa_pray.gif] [smilie=eusa_pray.gif] [smilie=icon_thumright.gif] [smilie=eusa_pray.gif]

[Bodarc]

Jack

I was wondering if you have started back on training LB to the hood and if so, how is it coming along? My coop's hurt her foot but it's well now and I am going to resume hood training but I think I am going to try high level tidbiting and operant conditioning. I am going to start this morning actually. . . well, maybe this evening after the hunt.

[goshawks00]

Unfortunately LB got tangled up with an old tomcat and didn't make it... Jack will be back in a bit.
Barry

[Bodarc]

I knew he had a bird that got bit by a cat. Didn't know it was LB 'sigh'

Thanks Barry

[Jack]

This is just my 11 does and don't. It is ok if you disagree, but I am not open for discussion if you do. It is just the way I have done it and I swear by it.


1. do not use an imprint tank. It's dumb. Make a nest in a basket and the hawk will stay in it.
2. never pick it up with your bare hands. If you want to move it, move the nest. They have an unusual fear of falling.
3. Never take it outside and place it on the ground. This is like falling from the nest and will stress the shit out of it.
4. Make certain that there is food on the platter all day long. Never let it run out. When it gets low, fill it up. Chop it into tiny little chunks, or better yet, use a needle nosed pliers to wrench out tiny little pieces of meat and bone.
5. Don't worry about food association. The hawk will not associate you with food unless you allow it to become hungry. Be present while it eats so that later on it will not mantle it's food. Get down close while it eats so that it will not fear your close presents while eating.
6. Do not tether or glove the bird until it is jumping up on the backs of chairs. Then you can let it perch on the fist at times to get it used to this. The hawk will start to lose the dreaded fear of falling and will ride the fist well. Then you may jess the hawk. But I would not tether it.
7. I would stop cutting up food and just lay whole dead things in the dish for the hawk to feed off of. Let it pull it's own food. You can even start tying it to the lure.
8. make a short perch and place it on the floor and the bird will jump up and sit on it. You can sit it upon something to get it higher. Once the hawk is sleeping on it at night you might try tethering, but I would not do that. I would take the hawk outside and tether it in a weathering pin. But not until after it has hard pinned.
9. Once it is doing well in the weathering pen I would place it into the mews at night.
10. Never give it a live animal or birds to kill until it is ready. That would be well after it is hard pinned and you have start to reduce the weight. It will require weight reduction. Once it is down to a decent weight you can check to see how it responds to the fluttering of a quail or pigeon, but never expect it to kill until them. In order to get it killing early on with baggies you will have to reduce the weight. This is the main cause of screaming and other ill behaviors in imprinted hawks.
11. In no case would I feed it tidbits on the fist. All my accipiters are for the fist and so do not need to be called in to the fist with food. No following on. I will raise the fist and the hawk will come to it with no expectation of food reward. The fist is just a hunting platform. Any food reward will be given on the lure. But the lure is not used to call the hawk back to me unless it is time to go home. This is all achieved through training.

hawks are hard wired to kill for their food. So they need no training or teaching in that respect. Manipulate the weight and you can inspire this behavior.

Jack

[outhawkn]

This is just my 11 does and don't. It is ok if you disagree, but I am not open for discussion if you do. It is just the way I have done it and I swear by it.


1. do not use an imprint tank. It's dumb. Make a nest in a basket and the hawk will stay in it.
2. never pick it up with your bare hands. If you want to move it, move the nest. They have an unusual fear of falling.
3. Never take it outside and place it on the ground. This is like falling from the nest and will stress the shit out of it.
4. Make certain that there is food on the platter all day long. Never let it run out. When it gets low, fill it up. Chop it into tiny little chunks, or better yet, use a needle nosed pliers to wrench out tiny little pieces of meat and bone.
5. Don't worry about food association. The hawk will not associate you with food unless you allow it to become hungry. Be present while it eats so that later on it will not mantle it's food. Get down close while it eats so that it will not fear your close presents while eating.
6. Do not tether or glove the bird until it is jumping up on the backs of chairs. Then you can let it perch on the fist at times to get it used to this. The hawk will start to lose the dreaded fear of falling and will ride the fist well. Then you may jess the hawk. But I would not tether it.
7. I would stop cutting up food and just lay whole dead things in the dish for the hawk to feed off of. Let it pull it's own food. You can even start tying it to the lure.
8. make a short perch and place it on the floor and the bird will jump up and sit on it. You can sit it upon something to get it higher. Once the hawk is sleeping on it at night you might try tethering, but I would not do that. I would take the hawk outside and tether it in a weathering pin. But not until after it has hard pinned.
9. Once it is doing well in the weathering pen I would place it into the mews at night.
10. Never give it a live animal or birds to kill until it is ready. That would be well after it is hard pinned and you have start to reduce the weight. It will require weight reduction. Once it is down to a decent weight you can check to see how it responds to the fluttering of a quail or pigeon, but never expect it to kill until them. In order to get it killing early on with baggies you will have to reduce the weight. This is the main cause of screaming and other ill behaviors in imprinted hawks.
11. In no case would I feed it tidbits on the fist. All my accipiters are for the fist and so do not need to be called in to the fist with food. No following on. I will raise the fist and the hawk will come to it with no expectation of food reward. The fist is just a hunting platform. Any food reward will be given on the lure. But the lure is not used to call the hawk back to me unless it is time to go home. This is all achieved through training.

hawks are hard wired to kill for their food. So they need no training or teaching in that respect. Manipulate the weight and you can inspire this behavior.

Jack

mabe I missed something, but... Jack ,EXACTLY how many imprints have you successfully raised with this method?

the reason I use an imprint tank isnt to confine the bird ...its to confine the mutes. How do you keep the birds from crapping all over everything?

Oops, I went back and read one of your earlier posts. You have this all figured out from imprinting "one" bird!

[Jack]

mabe I missed something, but... Jack ,EXACTLY how many imprints have you successfully raised with this method?
--
Just the one. But no regrets because he turned out better than any imprint I have ever seen done by anyone.
--

the reason I use an imprint tank isnt to confine the bird ...its to confine the mutes. How do you keep the birds from crapping all over everything?

--
Mutes can be cleaned up if you designate a single room to the task. I managed to pull that off because when fed the way I fed him the mutes were only small and no large squirts across the room.
---

Oops, I went back and read one of your earlier posts. You have this all figured out from imprinting "one" bird!

_________________
Good hawking,
Bill

--
Bill, I also have about 40 years of messing with accipiters as well. I have seen enough imprints to know when things went wrong and know and seen enough birds being raised and imprinted to realize where it went wrong. Using my vast experience in dealing with the nature of the accipiter I was able to determine the exact path I intended to take in imprinting this hawk. I had a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C. I never had to even revert to plan B. Everything went exactly as I thought it would except when I started dropping his weight slowly. That was the kiss of death. It is a recipe for screaming and mantling. I got ruthless and dropped it to where it needed to be and was able to start feeding him lots of food again, and this bird never screamed and never mantled. I have yet to see the imprint that does not scream occasionally. Except for LB.
It helps to know your birds. There is little anyone can teach me about accipiters. And I do not agree with McD either. As a recipe, it is designed to make a hunting machine, and not designed to produce a well behaved hawk. Not at all. That was my aim and nothing else. Accipiters do not require kill training. It is wired into them.
I had a friend come by with his little female Cooper's hawk. She and LB played some and they flew about in the den. We had a very good visit. Since then the little Cooper's has been passed around some. She was not a lot of fun to handle. She could have been, but she wasn't. Still isn't from what I have been told. He used the McD method I am told.
The methods spoken of here other than mine are what I would call standard. Most everyone I know do it the same way. But then they do not understand why some turn out well and some don't. Those that do turn out well do so in spite of the falconer. Others are not so lucky. Doing something over and over and hoping for eventual success is sort of diffucult for me to understand. I was not going to discuss this with anyone, but I did. I don't expect many to agree simply because I have only done it one time. But once is enough for me to understand that I was right. When someone that has done it many times says I am wrong I have to look at their own results and judge their ability to determine if I am really wrong. You have to at least once do a better job than I did to say you do it better. So far I am still waiting.

Jack

[Jimmy]

Those that do turn out well do so in spite of the falconer.


And perhaps this was the case with your bird as well. Beginner's luck..... [smilie=eusa_think.gif]

[Ken S.]

I've read the various methods of feeding a very young imprint (keep food with it 24/7 on a plate and later a carcass, etc.). But what I'd like to hear a little more about.... is how others handle daily feeding after the young imprint is well into weight reduction and beyond the initial stages of hunting.

I assume some kind of routine needs to get established for feeding the imprint throughout the season that would minimize aggressive and vocal behaviors. Obviously there will be bad weather days or other things where hunting isn't possible that day. Do you feed via flashlight, a food chute, jump-ups and exercise, call to the lure, etc.? Or maybe a combination of these things? Can anyone share what works for them, or maybe even what they think does NOT work?

-Ken

[Falcon Boy]

I have a falcon, but on non-hunting days i tend to just hang out in the mews with some food in my pocket cleaning, walking around etc, and after a few min when the bird is no longer paying attention ill drop it on the oppisite side of my body from him. I would not do that with anything except a falcon

A food chute could work. Days i dont just drop the food i take him out and call him to the lure and just give him the whole meal with one call, it seems to really reinforce that lure=lots of food.

[outhawkn]

mabe I missed something, but... Jack ,EXACTLY how many imprints have you successfully raised with this method?
--
Just the one. But no regrets because he turned out better than any imprint I have ever seen done by anyone.
--

the reason I use an imprint tank isnt to confine the bird ...its to confine the mutes. How do you keep the birds from crapping all over everything?

--
Mutes can be cleaned up if you designate a single room to the task. I managed to pull that off because when fed the way I fed him the mutes were only small and no large squirts across the room.
---

Oops, I went back and read one of your earlier posts. You have this all figured out from imprinting "one" bird!

_________________
Good hawking,
Bill

--
Bill, I also have about 40 years of messing with accipiters as well. I have seen enough imprints to know when things went wrong and know and seen enough birds being raised and imprinted to realize where it went wrong. Using my vast experience in dealing with the nature of the accipiter I was able to determine the exact path I intended to take in imprinting this hawk. I had a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C. I never had to even revert to plan B. Everything went exactly as I thought it would except when I started dropping his weight slowly. That was the kiss of death. It is a recipe for screaming and mantling. I got ruthless and dropped it to where it needed to be and was able to start feeding him lots of food again, and this bird never screamed and never mantled. I have yet to see the imprint that does not scream occasionally. Except for LB.
It helps to know your birds. There is little anyone can teach me about accipiters. And I do not agree with McD either. As a recipe, it is designed to make a hunting machine, and not designed to produce a well behaved hawk. Not at all. That was my aim and nothing else. Accipiters do not require kill training. It is wired into them.
I had a friend come by with his little female Cooper's hawk. She and LB played some and they flew about in the den. We had a very good visit. Since then the little Cooper's has been passed around some. She was not a lot of fun to handle. She could have been, but she wasn't. Still isn't from what I have been told. He used the McD method I am told.
The methods spoken of here other than mine are what I would call standard. Most everyone I know do it the same way. But then they do not understand why some turn out well and some don't. Those that do turn out well do so in spite of the falconer. Others are not so lucky. Doing something over and over and hoping for eventual success is sort of diffucult for me to understand. I was not going to discuss this with anyone, but I did. I don't expect many to agree simply because I have only done it one time. But once is enough for me to understand that I was right. When someone that has done it many times says I am wrong I have to look at their own results and judge their ability to determine if I am really wrong. You have to at least once do a better job than I did to say you do it better. So far I am still waiting.

Jack

I posted a response but since I'm bucking for nice guy of the year, I deleted it...

[Bodarc]

Jack and Barry

I have followed both of your posts for a few years now. Anytime either of you post something I make sure I read it and make notes so I don't forget things. When I started asking questions about imprinting a cooper's hawk I was planning to pull, both of you went out of your way to help me and I appreciate it immensely.

If you look at it, almost everyone has a slight difference in imprinting. Some use no food association and some like Harry McElroy call accipiters to the fist and say they have no problems. I think both of you are fantastic falconers but just have a few differences in the way you go about things....doesn't everyone?

With your help and a few others, I have now worked with two accipiters and so far, it has been a pleasure and the female I have now is as well mannered as most red-tails (other than about 5 minutes when you go to take her off the perch where she's just a tad territorial)

Sooo, I just want to thank you both for all your help and differences aren't so bad as long as it gets the job done which I am sure both of you do very very well.

Thanks again

[Bodarc]

Ken

I keep my coop's in the garage perched on a piece of outdoor carpet. If I dont' fly her, I take her out and toss tidbits to the ground or call her to the lure like Noah was talking about. A lot of times, I use Mike McDermott's method of feeding at her in the dark at her perch with a pen light. I don't know if this helps or not because she is still a tad bit territorial of her perch but not very much. I didnt' know of any other way so I just took his suggestion that it was a good way of doing it. I bought the supplies this weekend to build a dog run so I can start having her pull a rope so some days I will be tidbitting her that way.

I also was doing and I am going to start over giving her high level tidbits with a skewer when trying to make her to the hood using OC. I'll let you know how that works out.

Most of all........I want her to KILL something to eat.

[goshawks00]

Thanks Johnny for the kind remarks... it's not cut and dried and I can tell you only a fool would think so.. there are to many unrepeatable things we do.. either inadvertently or intentinally that can and do cause our hawks to react differently.

After 4 generations of breeding them (close to a hundred offspring now) I can tell you it's all in how you train them,--- more time spent usually results in a better hawk but not always. I'm learning, through this hacking process it isn't always the amount of time spent and could possibly be the timing of the time spent and the quality of that time, that may make a difference.

Bill glad to see you keeping the peace. [smilie=eusa_clap.gif]

Jack... well.. as I've said before, you and I just have to agree to disagree on certain techniques.. nuff said. [smilie=eusa_think.gif]
Barry

[outhawkn]

Bill glad to see you keeping the peace. [smilie=eusa_clap.gif]


Barry

But sometimes its sooo...hard! [smilie=dontknow.gif]

Have a great evening Barry

[Jack]

Bill, this is why we have discussions, so we can say what we think. So don't keep it in. Say it. I do.
Now, as for imprinting a hawk, you have to remember that the hawk does not even know that it is a hawk. It doesn't know that you are a human. They do not even care one way or the other. Their focus is very narrow. Whether mom raises them or a human, the nature of the bird does not really change. Some of it's so called, learned behavior is different because of this, but it does not change their wiring at all. By knowing the nature of these birds you can deal with imprinting them quite successfully. But you have to know exactly what you are doing when you do it. Most people consider food association to be the evil here, but it has very little to do with screaming and mantling. It can make a hawk beg for food if they are allowed to get real hungry, but then there are so many more reasons why a hawk will act this way.
I have a hybrid tiercel that is an imprint. He is a poster chick for reasons against imprinting. And it is not his fault. I have seen many imprints that do the exact same behaviors as he does, and he will hold food and scream, eat food and scream, see me and scream, hear me and scream. He screams just to hear his self scream I guess. It has absolutely nothing to do with food. And it never really did. The bird has developed some form of neuroticism. He is crazy. And it was not to do with food at all. These things are never taken into consideration when raising imprints by anyone I know, and they do each one the same way no matter how the last one turns out. They use the excuse that they are all different. Well, they are all different, but only in ways that make little difference in the training. The things that make them all the same are usually what we use to train them anyway. Or I do anyway.
I have only imprinted the one goshawk. Now I did not do it in any haphazard manner either. I spent an entire year sitting and thinking this thing out before I got him. I knew it could be done and I did it. I am perfectly content in that I can do it again and again and again. Same results each time. I would hope that when you have different results by doing something the same way each time that you would snap on it and realize the pattern. If it fails just once it is no good. You can not put it off as the hawk being so different. It is in the way you do it. And Barry is right. It is not really how much, but the timing involved and the quality of the time spent.
What would be very interesting is that everyone that did a 10 does and don't go back and explain exactly why they do it that way. So that everyone can fully understand why. I would venture that most people would not even know why themselves. Now that is what is wrong here. I never do anything that I have not fully worked out well in advance. I have to understand exactly what it is that I am doing if I expect to succeed at it.
Bill, I realize that I should not have said the imprint tank is stupid. Really pissed you off. But you need to not be so touchy. It is probably something you got from someone else without really thinking about it. And then there is the mute factor. The thing about this is that you are looking toward your own needs first, which is your first mistake. If you intend to imprint anything, you need to forget about such things, and if your boss will not let you keep it in the house, move into the garage with it. You have to live with it to do it right.
I remember one time we had McD as a key speaker at the THA meet. He was absolutely taken by the fact of myself and a friend flying passage Cooper's and taking sacks full of quarry with them. He admitted that he imprinted because he did not believe you could fly a passage Cooper's with any success. I have to look at that before taking on any of his methods. When it comes to the Cooper's hawk, I do not know of anyone, dead or alive, that has flown as many passage Cooper's hawks as I have. And certainly not with the success that I have. Having a vast knowledge of accipiters, one can imprint in a more natural way. You probably don't realize it, but the little things we do with these birds can lead to some serious mental trauma. An example would be picking a downey up with your hands and putting it out on the ground to play. They don't play. They get traumatized. This in itself can make them fearful of you and create anxieties and neurosis which can and probably does lead to screaming when they see you.
Again, I realize that most may not agree with me, and that is ok. It will not hare lip me at all. I am very confident in what I do, and I was not ever going to do it again, but I have since decided that I will. There is a pair of Cooper's that nest in my community. I usually know where the nest is each year, but just in case I plan on putting my tiny little Merlin Special on a smaller dove and let the Cooper's take him home with him to feed the young. I will find the nest and take one of them. I will use the exact same method of imprinting this hawk and I will have my technique down to a science. I will produce another perfect imprint.

Jack

[Bodarc]

Jack

I was reviewing your 11 comments and noticed the one about an imprint tank. I used one with good results to control mutes but I modified mine a bit to make it easier to handle the bird and to clean. I would think that the odor from just a basket would be unbearable after a few days which wouldn't work for me with the wifey LOL

I made a false bottom out of coroplast that lacked about 3/4 of an inch touching the sides all the way around the tank. In the bottom of the tank, I'd place 2 or 3 sticks to keep the false bottom off of any mutes that might run down the sides of the tank. On top of the false bottom, I hot glued sticks together to make a nest so the chick could learn to use his feet and grab things to hold on to. I kept the sticks about 2 inches inside the rim of the tank because the chicks will lay on the edge of the nest and rest their head against the side of the tank if you arn't careful and get mutes on their feathers from the sides. In the center of the nest, I placed a folded up wash cloth but I found that my bird spent most of his time on the sticks instead of on the cloth.

Each day I would take it outside, gently lift up the false bottom with the bird still in the nest and place it on a small woodpile. I'd then wash out the tank, put a few new sticks in the bottom, and gently replace the false bottom back into the tank. The chick never knew he was moved. Later on, I would lift out the false bottom and sit it on the ground. If the chick wanted to walk out, I'd let him. Getting him back was no problem, just sit the false bottom beside him and gently herd him inside with your hands. ..you never have to pick him up.

The chicks stand on the edge of the nest, lean over and slice. The mutes hit the side of the tank and run down to the bottom but since the false bottom is about an inch off the bottom, the nest stays nice and clean.

It worked well for me.

[sevristh]

First off, I have to say, this is one of the most interesting threads on this site in my opinion. You all have very strong feelings about how and why etc.

I'd like to try it some day, but just reading what you guys have posted makes it seem like a HUGE daunting task requiring tons of thought and planning.

But Johnny brings up a very good point...

Jack, in using just a nest to transport the bird around, and not a tank, what do you do about the buildup of the mutes? Just deal with the smell because as you said, you should inconvenience yourself and not the bird or have you found a way around this?

The idea of not picking the bird up and/or putting him on the ground to play does make a lot of sense, and seems very intuitive.

[Bodarc]

When I knew I wanted to imprint a cooper's, I knew very little about it (still don't know much) but I talked to everyone I could and developed a plan that I was going to use. This is what I wrote down and what I followed except with so many GHO's around I was afraid to do the tame hack. I am surrounded by GHO's. Anyway, this is the plan I came up with from talking to so many people.


Johnny's Imprinting Plan:

1 Obtain the eyass
2 Place her inside the house in a box in front of the television and household activity
3 Feed her with 5 in forceps until she is able to eat herself
4 Keep a saucer in front of her with food available at all times
5 Keep the dog around her so she is accustomed to him (Watching him of course)
6 Do not worry about food association but no hand feeding...always in the saucer.
7 Let her watch hours and hours of television along with hours and hours of socialization in various environments.
8 Play with her feet and food as she eats (Everyday)
9 Sun her in the mornings
10 Introduce her to the lure and whistle by feeding her on it
11 Attach jesses etc when she's approximately 15-20 days and introduce her to a bow perch.
12 When she is able to jump to the top of the box and starts flapping her wings and makes her first attempt at flying attach a mini transmitter such as a Holohil BD-2G or a lightweight Merlin system research model.
13 Take her outdoors with her box on a table or some convenient place.
Have a tree with a good many branches on it and lean another tree against it so she can climb back up if something happens.
14 Call and tidbit her on the lure a few times each day
15 After she's well wed to the lure, rotate lure training along with baggies in the afternoon.
16 Call her in at night and during stormy weather and place her on her bow perch
17 Determine her light sensitivity and keep the room as dark as is necessary to keep her from bateing
18 Let her fly around the grand kids and myself and include her in activities if she comes down but with instructions not to ever try to force her onto an arm or pick her up or do anything to agitate her
18 She will be developing her flying skills, use of the wind, and strengthening her muscles and lure training
20 Leave her out for approximately 2 weeks or until she starts not coming in as often
21 Catch her and start lowering her weight gradually
22 Since she is already flying and is lure trained, get her to flying weight and go hunting.
23 Sparrows, blackbirds, crows after she's bigger
24 Game animals after the season opens

These are some I would add now:

25 Hood her every day with the hood you'll use when she's grown ( I did not have this in my original plan but I think I would add it if I ever do another...which I am sure I will.

26 Put her in a mew when she can fly and toss live sparrows inside.

27 Never EVER pick them up when they are young. Their fear of falling from the nest is immense. If for any reason you HAVE to, cup your hands under them and let them grip your fingers and lift them very gently.

28 Have LOTS of baggies before you ever pull the chick. I ran into the situation where the temps were around 107 and game was scarce this year.

29 Keep an eye out for the 10% rule

30 Watch your bird, watch your bird and try to read her. If something doesn't seem to be working, change it before it becomes a real problem.

A little information obtained from a lot of people and I certainly appreciate it.

[outhawkn]

27 Never EVER pick them up when they are young. Their fear of falling from the nest is immense. If for any reason you HAVE to, cup your hands under them and let them grip your fingers and lift them very gently.
A little information obtained from a lot of people and I certainly appreciate it.

Bodarc, Nice plan, could you explain number 27 a little more?

Jack, Would you mind explaining your comment: An example would be picking a downey up with your hands and putting it out on the ground to play. They don't play. They get traumatized.

[Bodarc]

27 Never EVER pick them up when they are young. Their fear of falling from the nest is immense.

could explain number 27 a little more?.

Bill

The way it was explained to me is this:

When they are downy's, they have a built in protection system that keeps them in the nest. This fear if you will is what keeps them from just running off the side of the nest and falling to the ground. As they begin to mature and become branchers etc, they gradually lose this fear and when they start hopping to the side of the box or onto higher objects it is safe to put them on the fist or to perch them but when they are downy's they are traumatized by being picked up and moved because of this built in safety fear.

Like I say, I am just a first year general and don't know much but it seems reasonable to me and I avoided picking them up and the once or twice that I did have to pick mine up, I could tell very easily that he didn't like it one bit.

[outhawkn]

Johnny

Do you know the stages of developement in altricial birds?

[Bodarc]

Bill

I don't even know what an altrical bird is!

I'm all ears...sounds like a good lesson I need.

[outhawkn]

Ok, I'll start at the beginning, but i cant type worth a $hit so it'll take me awhile.

[Bodarc]

[smilie=smileys13.gif]

[Jimmy]

Bill found a new word....... [smilie=icon_pray.gif]

I had to google it, as I'd never heard of it.




In bird and mammal biology, altricial species, or altrices, are those whose newly hatched or born young are relatively immobile, have closed eyes, lack hair or down, and must be cared for by the adults. Altricial young are born helpless and require care for a comparatively long time. Among birds, these include, for example, herons, hawks, woodpeckers, owls and most passerines. Rodents and marsupials are altricial, as are gray wolves.

On the opposite end of the spectrum are precocial animals in which the young have open eyes, have hair or down, large brains and are immediately mobile and somewhat able to defend themselves against predators. For example, with birds that nest on the ground, such as ducks or turkeys, the young are ready to leave the nest in one or two days. Similarly, butterflies and bees, elephants and horses, monkeys, donkeys and also wildebeest; they are all able to fend for themselves almost immediately and so they are precocial.

Different animals employ different precocial or altricial strategies. It hinges on the ability of the female to contribute to the pre-natal and post-natal development of their young. Precocial females are able to provide protein-rich eggs and such their young hatch in the fledgling stage - able to protect themselves from predators (cf. ducks or turkeys) and the females have less involvement post-natal (think turtle eggs). Ostrich eggs are so large, that they are as large as an adult ostrich brain. Altricial females are somewhat less able to contribute nutrients in the pre-natal stage; their eggs are smaller and their young still in need of much attention and protection from predators.

The two strategies result in different brain sizes of the newborns compared to adults. Precocial animals' brains are large at birth relative to their body size, hence their ability to fend for themselves. However, as adults, their brains are not much bigger or more able. Altricial animals' brains are relatively small at birth, thus their need for care and protection, but their brains continue to grow. As adults, altricial animals end up with comparatively larger brains than their precocial counterparts. Thus the altricial species have a wider skill set at maturity.

Humans (and parrots) have developed a strategy comprising both altricial and precocial characteristics. The young are precocial: they have hair/down, eyes are open, and yet are immobile and require great investiture by the parents to protect them from predators and to provide nutrients to raise them to maturation. Humans (and parrots) have relatively large brains at birth, but brain size nonetheless continues to grow substantially to maturity.

[sevristh]

Humans (and parrots) have relatively large brains at birth, but brain size nonetheless continues to grow substantially to maturity.

I don't know about that.... I work with a few people that are altricial... maybe a split in the human evolution?? [smilie=smileys13.gif] [smilie=eusa_sick.gif]

[outhawkn]

.

[outhawkn]

Jimmy... play nice [smilie=smileys13.gif] [smilie=smileys13.gif]

[sevristh]

Jimmy... play nice [smilie=smileys13.gif] [smilie=smileys13.gif]

Bill,

He doesn't know how... no one ever introduced it to him during his first downy stage! [smilie=eusa_sick.gif] [smilie=eusa_clap.gif]

[outhawkn]

Damn Dave, you should be a comedian!! [smilie=smileys13.gif]

[Jimmy]

no one ever introduced it to him during his first downy stage! [smilie=eusa_sick.gif] [smilie=eusa_clap.gif]

he-he-he...... I was misprinted anyways......

[Bodarc]

Bill

Thanks for the info! I knew of it in a round about way but not in the scientific way that you presented it. I've made a note for future reference.

Do you normally pick up and handle newly hatched chicks up until they become branchers etc? You don't have any problems doing this?

[outhawkn]

.

[Bodarc]

What you do and what they see as a first stage downy they wont fear as an adult. Tyr it next time and see for yourself.

So you are saying if you hood them 4 or 5 times a day every day from the time they are downies, they won't resist at all when they become hard penned?

[outhawkn]

.

[Bodarc]

Yes, I did install training jessies I call them on my eyass coops and had no problems. Every day I would fool with them too.

Thanks for the info Bill. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss it.

[outhawkn]

You are welcome. I dont know if others think that way, bujt give it a try some time and let me know how it goes.

[Rudd]

Very nice Bill. That is one of the best pieces of info I have read on here.

[outhawkn]

Very nice Bill. That is one of the best pieces of info I have read on here.

Thanks, Rudd

I think imprinting is still in the infant stage. people will come along and get more interested and you watch, some amazing things will happen.

[Jack]

Ok, time to stick my finger in the pie again. From the time the hawk comes from the egg it does have certain fears. You can expose it to objects and things so that they do not develop fear of it, but that does not always work. Not at all. And then there are the natural, inborne fears. Emotions, that are directly linked to sensations, like falling, or fear of falling. You can dull their senses to objects and things, but you are not going to alter the birds natural instinctive fears and behaviors. Like that of falling. The little hawks would become completely fearless of falling if that was the case. In just a few days they would overcome the fear of falling and would be all over the edge of the nest platform. No, this is just one of the things that we have no access to. It is as much a part of them as their wings. Another is that of being on the ground. It is not a place to be for a young hawk. Or any bird. They know this and try to avoid it. If you take the little hawk out and put it on the ground it does not have the feeling of your presents as a comfort. The hawk does not feel safe. Dogs, cats, other birds, strange things moving about. It is no wonder there are so many neurotic birds running around out there.
And another thing. At field meets there is this thing about perching hawks out together on the weathering grounds. This is crazy. Any hawk or falcon perched on the grounds sees each and every other bird there as a natural enemy and they are tied down and helpless within feet of them. It is no wonder we see so many crazy birds. Constant anxiety.

[Bodarc]

Looks like we have a discussion going on this ...any other long time imprinters have any info to share one way or the other?

[outhawkn]

Jack could you site any research to prove your claim?

[sevristh]

But if you keep this up, I'm going to have to pull a couple eyass Goshawks this year and imprint them. Drive all the way to texas, and take you outhawkn. Just to show you! [smilie=smileys13.gif] [smilie=smileys13.gif]

Hey Bill! I think you're full of crap too! Can I get you to come here and take me out hawkin' with the Gos'?! [smilie=smileys13.gif] [smilie=banana.gif]

[kimmerar]

But if you keep this up, I'm going to have to pull a couple eyass Goshawks this year and imprint them. Drive all the way to texas, and take you outhawkn. Just to show you! [smilie=smileys13.gif] [smilie=smileys13.gif]

Hey Bill! I think you're full of crap too! Can I get you to come here and take me out hawkin' with the Gos'?! [smilie=smileys13.gif] [smilie=banana.gif]

ME TOOO!!! I'm not far from TX. [smilie=smileys13.gif]

[Bodarc]

But if you keep this up, I'm going to have to pull a couple eyass Goshawks this year and imprint them. Drive all the way to texas, and take you outhawkn. Just to show you! [smilie=smileys13.gif] [smilie=smileys13.gif]

I'll climb the tree for ya for one of them Bill [smilie=sunny.gif]

[outhawkn]

Ok you three, be nice! [smilie=smileys13.gif]
I know thats hard to do, but...

Kim, you might be seeing more of me than you like, My wife still wants to move to AR. Her Mom has offered us her 80 acre farm to use until she is gone(not anytime soon I hope,a very nice lady). Not overly thrilled about Ar. But not having to buy 80 acres with barns is worth considering.

Did somebody just offer to climb a tree for me?? Where is that fool, er, uh ,I mean gentlemen. [smilie=eusa_naughty.gif]

Johnny, You do know that non-residents can now take birds? I just happen to know where to go...

Dave, are gonna supply the beer?

[Bodarc]

Johnny, You do know that non-residents can now take birds? I just happen to know where to go...

That's the secret Bill. I had a friend that spent two weeks trying to locate a nest. He drove around 1500 miles, paid motel bills all that time, plus eats and misc expenses and still came home birdless. He finally bought one and said it was cheaper but he just wanted to pull a wild one.

[kimmerar]

Bill

I'll climb trees, I'll raise one to your specs - whatever. AR is hot in the summer. AR has areas with lots of forest (hard to kite fly) - where I live - to open fields (good for flying falcons) - southeast to southwest. You might end up not liking it here since you like 40 below!!! Oh - you can bug me anytime you want.

I'm dying to see an accipiter chase game. Gos - sharpy - coops - anything. Hopefully at NAFA in 08 I'll get to see it. I think that's what I'm going to end up preferring. Too chicken to try it though.

[outhawkn]

Johnny, You do know that non-residents can now take birds? I just happen to know where to go...

That's the secret Bill. I had a friend that spent two weeks trying to locate a nest. He drove around 1500 miles, paid motel bills all that time, plus eats and misc expenses and still came home birdless. He finally bought one and said it was cheaper but he just wanted to pull a wild one.

Check your PM's please.

[sevristh]

Dave, are gonna supply the beer?

As if any self-respecting ex-Navy man would be without BEER! Pshaw~ [smilie=smileys13.gif]

[Jack]

Bill, to be honest, I have not read anything that would suggest what you say that was written by a scientist. I would be very interested in knowing what you think is the reason most imprints scream and mantle. I have suggested that we all give our reasoning for what we do, but no one has done so except myself. I can be persuaded if a person has a logical reason for something, but so far I have not heard anything suggesting the reasons other than it is something that is always going to be. We don't see adult hawks flying around screaming for no aparent reason. So why in the world would we have to put up with adult hawks screaming in our ears all the time? There are indeed many ways to alter a hawks behavior, but it is only among the things that we can consider as learned behavior. All creatures have learned behaviors. Then all creatures have genetic memory, or instinct if you will. These things can not be removed from them. It is something that has evolved over millions of years. It is something that we as falconers have absolutely no access to. We can not alter this factor.
Now, I don't know where you read your information, but I consider myself to have several masters degrees in accipiter behavior. I flew them exclusively for almost 40 years, and have flown them in one form or another for the past almost 50 years. I have read a lot of stuff about them that I personally know to be wrong. No one has actually done a scientific research on what we were talking about. If so I do not know who or where.
Have you ever climbed up and looked over into the nest of a Cooper's hawk when the young are only days to a week old? They sink down into the nest bowl and get real still and quite. Fear. So I am not to be convinced that they do not feel this emotion. Now, exposing them to things and objects might eventually dull their fear of it. But the fear of falling, which is a survival instinctive emotion, can only cause the fear reaction, and it probably only has to do it a few times in order to make the hawk have a terror of your hands and being carried. How much of this terror does it take to make the hawk neurotic?
In your own opinion, why do most all imprinted birds scream? Even when well fed and several years old. Until someone excepts that all is not known about these birds that we fly, we will be doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over. So far this has been the case. I have been told exactly how to imprint a hawk by people that have done many imprints. But I would not be happy with the results of any of their birds. So why was I able to make an imprint that I was perfectly happy with? Why is is so hard to believe that it can be done? I attribute it mostly to the fact that I have a lifetime of experience in dealing with the nature of these hawks. Not in imprinting them as such, but knowing what can be expected from them and how they think and develop. Then you have people that come along, never really doing much with their first passage hawks, and as soon as they can start imprinting. Writting books about how to and how not to. And then there are those that eat this up like it is candy. It is no wonder that birds blow up on you, as someone else described.
I can be wrong. I know that. But I do not believe I am. My results tell me that I am dead on. And until someone can offer me something logical that can best explain such behavior, I have to think I am right.

Jack

[wesleyc6]

Dave, are gonna supply the beer?

As if any self-respecting ex-Navy man would be without BEER! Pshaw~ [smilie=smileys13.gif]


You mean there are self respecting Navy men? Gee how could that be.


Go Army [smilie=smileys13.gif]

[outhawkn]

.

[Jack]

Bill, you are not staying with the subject matter here. I realize that mantling is a natural act for raptors, but to sit and mantle on the fist is not a natural act. I have a falcon that I did not know what he looked like until just recently. He was always all fuzzed up and mantling as he screamed at me. I think you know what I am talking about. I can not seem to get a point across. Even if the young hawks show no fear of you or any other thing or object, when you go to lifting it up with your hands it will grip your fingers and chitter. It is a natural built in thing. And it is what saves them from falling from the nest. It stays with them until they begin to branch. It is not until then that it is safe to carry them, and then only if they are perched on the fist or standing on the nest platform. You can not alter this state. And as for teaching me about goshawks and what they should be like, I think I might have been able to show you something. In his first season, and with rabbits very difficult to find, he took 15, along with 2 ducks. He was a well adjusted hawk that needed no coaxing to fly game. No screaming and no mantling on the fist or lure, and he was absolutely fearless. I believe that the fewer does and don'ts you have, the better and easier it is to stay the course. I did not do all the crap that most people do, just what I felt was what would be more natural to him. It seems to have worked quite well. And it is not first time luck either. How many first time imprints have you ever known to be exceptable.
Now see, I have had this discussion before with other people. This is why I said that you could disagree, but I was not up to discuss it. Everyone has the right to agree or disagree, and it is not going to hare lip me. The thing is I am not even wanting to argue a point with someone when I know that logic does not prevail. No matter how I approach it, it is useless. So I am done with this. You can go on hitting and missing, and if you ever have a real need to know, just let me know. I don't mind sharing knowledge that I have gleaned over the years. Discoveries that I have accidently made, or revelations that come to me in the middle of the night. But I will not argue about it. Either you except it and use it as if it were yours, or you leave it lay and move on.

Jack

[Bodarc]

The only time I picked mine up, he was 10 or 12 days old and didn't like it a bit so I made arrangements not to have to do it again. I don't know if it would make any difference if you started when he was 3 or 4 days old and did it every day but I don't think mine would have ever gotten used to it at the age he was. As Jack said, he chittered so I stopped.

Bill, do you normally pick yours up regularly when they are downies?

[goshawks00]

Jack is right , at least about the fear of heights and being handled. They all do it. I am sure that I have handled more young imprinting accipiters than all the rest of you combined. ( better than 130 and counting) That is because, obviously, of the breeding I've done... goshawks.. coopers sharpies, Euro spars , Euro eagle owls also. They all after about 4-5 days, show their displeasure as far as picking them up and handling them. Kept in a bowl while young then later in separate baskets they are very content and silent but when being handled( changing bedding, banding, vet inspections, etc all cause alarm in the young downy. At branching once standing on their own they develop confidence and the fear dissapates. Same with allowing them freedom on the ground once they are sure footed, they thrive on being able to exercise and move about.
.02
Barry

[goshawks00]

Jack is right , at least about the fear of heights and being handled. They all do it. I am sure that I have handled more young imprinting accipiters than all the rest of you combined. ( better than 130 and counting) That is because, obviously, of the breeding I've done... goshawks.. coopers sharpies, Euro spars , Euro eagle owls also. They all after about 4-5 days, show their displeasure as far as picking them up and handling them. Kept in a bowl while young then later in separate baskets they are very content and silent but when being handled( changing bedding, banding, vet inspections, etc all cause alarm in the young downy. At branching once standing on their own they develop confidence and the fear dissipates. Same with allowing them freedom on the ground once they are sure footed, they thrive on being able to exercise and move about.
.02
Barry

[Bodarc]

[ Kept in a bowl while young then later in separate baskets they are very content and silent

Barry

I've heard you mention the bowl a couple of times. What do you put inside the bowl and how big is it. What material is it made of...... clear glass or does it matter? I'd like to hear a description if you have time.

Thanks

BTW You've only done 129 more than I have.....I'm about to catch up with ya. [smilie=eusa_doh.gif]

[outhawkn]

Jack right , at least about the fear of heights and being handled. They all do it. I am sure that I have handled more young imprinting accipiters than all the rest of you combined. ( better than 130 and counting) That is because, obviously, of the breeding I've done... goshawks.. coopers sharpies, Euro spars , Euro eagle owls also. They all after about 4-5 days, show their displeasure as far as picking them up and handling them. Kept in a bowl while young then later in separate baskets they are very content and silent but when being handled( changing bedding, banding, vet inspections, etc all cause alarm in the young downy. At branching once standing on their own they develop confidence and the fear dissapates. Same with allowing them freedom on the ground once they are sure footed, they thrive on being able to exercise and move about.
.02
Barry

[outhawkn]

.

[Bodarc]

Bill

I would like to read it if you don't mind. This has been an interesting topic to me. I enjoyed hearing the different ideas from all of you.

[goshawks00]

Shoot Bill don't be secretive, we'd all like to learn,,, well maybe not all of us but I'm up for it. Please post. BTW your snide remarks are not unnoticed
Barry [smilie=eusa_naughty.gif]

[outhawkn]

Shoot Bill don't be secretive, we'd all like to learn,,, well maybe not all of us but I'm up for it. Please post. BTW your snide remarks are not unnoticed
Barry [smilie=eusa_naughty.gif]

Didnt mean to offend ,thought I was paying homage [smilie=icon_pray.gif]

[PeteJ]

Looks like we have a discussion going on this ...any other long time imprinters have any info to share one way or the other?

I'll chime in even though I just got here and this post is several months old. I'll agree with Jack about the fear of being handled when they are downies because they are afraid of falling. I tend to move them from place to place using a tub that eventually might become their bath pan. When I move them I tend to have the bird face me as I walk forward and hopefully they will be near the edge that is closest to me while I'm doing it. Then I set it on the ground in the shade to play or in the sun for their vitamin D fix (for brief periods early on...if they start complaining they've had enough sun...getting too hot likely). And yes they do play..big time as they get to be large downies onward towards fledging stage. They love to tear things up at this stage as well and crumpled up wads of paper work good to get them using their feet and beak together, or tennis balls if they are large enough birds to handle such a toy. I would post a pic of this but I can't figure out how the image posting works on here. [smilie=eusa_doh.gif]
As far as hooding, yes hooding several times a day (not closing it..just putting it on with it still open until about the time they are hard penned if you can manage it that long. I also tend to make them go to their food as soon as they can walk...and particularly if it is on the lure. I tend to feed ground food as long as possible and introduce whole food items along the way. But I do not depend on them to get their whole meal out of a whole prey item as they are still weak for quite sometime and will run out of strength often before they have eaten their usual ratio. So continue to use ground food to top them off.
While originally it was suggested by imprinters that the hood should be used just before and perhaps after eating???....I have shied away from that theory because they soon learn to come to associate the hood too much with feeding and will get dodgey trying to skip the hood and just eat. So I tend to just put it on either after the food is done being consumed and then again and hour or so before eating their food.
Pete J.

[chamokane]

I've only imprinted three birds, a Coop and two Peregrines, so I don't have any advice for anyone, but the Coop and one of the falcons started to play before they were two weeks old....both males.

[wesleyc6]

Same here Dave. Two perergrines(hybrids) and one coop. Coop ended with it not working so well.....ouch. Both falcons were awesome. One I lost and one I had to sell.

[chamokane]

Wes,
I think your new falcon is going to be the one.

All three of my imprints turned out pretty nice but I wouldn't try to explain why. I gave the Coop away after a year and the new owner got along with him fine too. The Peregrines are the two that I'm still flying. They are in their fifth and seventh years and are still very affectionate and playful. I love happy birds.

[wesleyc6]

thanks Dave! I hope so!

[outhawkn]

Here is a little info on imprinting. I'll continue this discussion next spring, when I have photos of my newly acquired wild taken Gos/coopers(not sure which one yet)

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa156/outhawkn/imprintingideas.jpg

[Bodarc]

Bill

From which book was that taken? You know Christmas is right around the corner and mama wants to know what I might need. 'grins'

[outhawkn]

Understanding the bird of prey. Dr Nick Fox

Director of falcon management and research at the national Avian Research center

[Lee Slikkers]

Well, instead of starting a whole new thread...I just reread this one yet again.

I was curious what some of the more experienced folks think about this method for imprints:

Basic outline -
Fully raised indoors for the first 7 weeks.
Socialised with kids and different dogs daily.
Transported to plenty of different locations.
If left on it's own, left in front of 42" Tv on a good volume.
No lure feeding during first 7 weeks.
Never fed up on the lure, food placed to side of lure.
No carcass feeding during first 9 weeks.
No weight reduction or recall training till fully feathered.
Very quick weight reduction when hard penned and hunted immediatly.

(I "borrowed" this from IFF so if cut & pasting it is an issue feel free to delete it Chris...I just think it has some interesting aspects to it.)

Here is the link to the full thread if it helps to answer some questions...

http://www.falconryforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=42623

[goshawks00]

I disagree with plenty of it but like I've said chevy parts don't work on ford cars.
B.

[Lee Slikkers]

I disagree with plenty of it but like I've said chevy parts don't work on ford cars.
B.

I hear ya Barry...just exploring and picking brains is all. His finished product last season seemed pretty impressive from all accounts but that may be him and his skill vs this outline.

[Falcon Boy]

My advice after raising my bird-
Find someone who's done exactly what you want to do, and done it well, at least a few times. The more they've done it the better.
Follow their advice almost exclusively, as combining methods don't work from what i saw.
Be as prepared as possible but know that the bird will not cooperate and will do things the complete opposite of what you expected at times and be able to think on your feet to get the problem solved.

[Lee Slikkers]

My advice after raising my bird-
Find someone who's done exactly what you want to do, and done it well, at least a few times. The more they've done it the better.
Follow their advice almost exclusively, as combining methods don't work from what i saw.
Be as prepared as possible but know that the bird will not cooperate and will do things the complete opposite of what you expected at times and be able to think on your feet to get the problem solved.

Sound advice Noah...I've just always struggled with buggin someone to ask how they did/do something. Imprinters are few and far between in my neck of the woods...so that will be a struggle. Thinking on your feet, I think that comes with being a successful falconer (likely the other way around) but I agree 110%

Thanks for the comments...

[goshawks00]

Noah you define the age old problem....
'to soon old to late smart'
You've done well.
B.

[Falcon Boy]

Lee, before this year i was never one to ask for help. I always thought i could figure it out. Perhaps i am just stubborn. This was the first year i truly shut up and listened, and it was the best season I've had. The amount i learned by keeping my mouth shut and ears and brain open was amazing. I learned more about weight control this year than I ever thought possible. After all, who would have thought weight control was more than just a number? brickk

EDIT_

I forgot to mention, the mind of an imprint is completely different than passage or CR.

Thanks Barry.

[John]

I'm no expert, but I've raised three imprints and my big suggestion would be to take your time with everything, especially feeding. The more it takes a while to get fed, just like hunting, the more the bird will be patient later on when you're hunting rather than switching to nasty mode when things don't go right. JMHO.

[Lee Slikkers]

I'm no expert, but I've raised three imprints and my big suggestion would be to take your time with everything, especially feeding. The more it takes a while to get fed, just like hunting, the more the bird will be patient later on when you're hunting rather than switching to nasty mode when things don't go right. JMHO.

John, I "think" I understand what you are saying / mean but can you clarify this just a touch more for me?

[John]

I mean these birds pick up on routines very quickly. So even if you're taking the bird to the food early on, they can still make a food connection if it happens too fast. I used a lot of bags with one of my imprint accips during early training and still ran into problems because I didn't make it enough like a hunt; i.e. a lot of walking around, extra time before the flush, making the bird patient and not expecting immediate food/bag. Sounds simple and I'm a little embarrassed to admit I made such a simple mistake, but it really was the one thing that caused me a lot of problems later.

[Tim Laycock]

For those that have imprinted accipiters by not following the recipe, what do you believe are key factors in rearing well-mannered, aggressive game hawks?

Socialise endlessly, control weight rigourously, fly hard every day the weather affords.

Other factors add polish but this is the bare bones of creating what you are asking for.

[Lee Slikkers]

I mean these birds pick up on routines very quickly. So even if you're taking the bird to the food early on, they can still make a food connection if it happens too fast. I used a lot of bags with one of my imprint accips during early training and still ran into problems because I didn't make it enough like a hunt; i.e. a lot of walking around, extra time before the flush, making the bird patient and not expecting immediate food/bag. Sounds simple and I'm a little embarrassed to admit I made such a simple mistake, but it really was the one thing that caused me a lot of problems later.

Thanks John, those thoughts and details were what I was searching for and they make perfect sense. I've been guilty of the same issue when trying to create a carhawking HH...made it too obvious and too fast. Live & learn I guess, about all we can do...

[wesleyc6]

Thanks John, those thoughts and details were what I was searching for and they make perfect sense. I've been guilty of the same issue when trying to create a carhawking HH...made it too obvious and too fast. Live & learn I guess, about all we can do...

Lee, I would be interesting in hearing more about the carhawking mistakes and what you saw. Start a new thread.............those boats can wait;)

[carlosR]

Great thread especially as it matured. I just think there are as many ways to raise and train hawks as people can dream up. Yes they all follow the some basic steps but what works for me may not work for you. Why? Because we, the falconer, are different not necessarily just the bird. I don't have the temperament to follow someone's recipe exactly to the letter. I like to tinker and explore the "what if's." Let alone the influence external factors such as hawking country, abundance of game, available hawking time, etc can have on our success.