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wesleyc6
05-06-2007, 08:19 PM
I may imprint a HH this year myself. smile. I can fly it all year and if I don't like an imprinted HH, then I can sell it to someone wanting to make some hybrids. [smilie=BangHead.gif] Where do I get these crazy ideas? [smilie=icon_toilet.gif]

chamokane
05-07-2007, 01:53 PM
I may imprint a HH this year myself. smile. I can fly it all year and if I don't like an imprinted HH, then I can sell it to someone wanting to make some hybrids. [smilie=BangHead.gif] Where do I get these crazy ideas? [smilie=icon_toilet.gif]

Just a note of caution: Before anyone seriously considers flying an imprint HH, it might be a good idea to check with some of the folks who were around back when that was first tried.

If I remember right, the main reason they quite flying imprints was not the screaming. When imprint HHs become sexually mature, they can be very possessive of their human partner (mate) and they were attacking other humans with very serious intent in the field.

I remember reading an account of a female that had been a perfect lady until she matured. Then, one day, she flipped and chased everyone but her owner back to their cars. One brave soul put on a fencing mask and went back out to see what she would really do. The sound of her talons grating on the screen as she raked the mask was described as sickening. I don't think that I would want to be liable for a bird like that.

I didn't see any of this myself, they had pretty much quite flying imprints by the time I got a HH in 1990, but Tom C. and others cautioned me pretty strongly against trying to fly an imprint HH, especially a female. I knew a guy who flew an imprint male but he usually hunted alone because he never knew when his bird might whack someone.

Dave

`Chris L.
05-07-2007, 06:08 PM
Just a note of caution: Before anyone seriously considers flying an imprint HH, it might be a good idea to check with some of the folks who were around back when that was first tried.

If I remember right, the main reason they quite flying imprints was not the screaming. When imprint HHs become sexually mature, they can be very possessive of their human partner (mate) and they were attacking other humans with very serious intent in the field.

I remember reading an account of a female that had been a perfect lady until she matured. Then, one day, she flipped and chased everyone but her owner back to their cars. One brave soul put on a fencing mask and went back out to see what she would really do. The sound of her talons grating on the screen as she raked the mask was described as sickening. I don't think that I would want to be liable for a bird like that.

I didn't see any of this myself, they had pretty much quite flying imprints by the time I got a HH in 1990, but Tom C. and others cautioned me pretty strongly against trying to fly an imprint HH, especially a female. I knew a guy who flew an imprint male but he usually hunted alone because he never knew when his bird might whack someone.

Dave

Dave,
a good friend of mine loved his imprinted HH. He has never mentioned those issues. I will give him a ring tonight and ask about that. Great pionts to think about though

Tiercel78
05-07-2007, 07:55 PM
I too have worked with 2 imprint female Harris Hawks NB and DB at the conservancy. I have seen a sister to one of our bird DB at another conservancy. I would never try to imprint one after seeing/working with those birds. Dave is right and speaks the truth about why no one imprints Harris anymore. I have seen multiple Parent raised Harris Hawks. They will also show a little favor to perticular humans usally the most familiar handler. Shadow the Sponsor's Harris I flew this past year was like that. She would let me walk past her and stroke her on the back when on the perch no problem. When my wife tried the same thing she would bow up on her and acted like she was going to come off the perch at her. When Shannon got a glove and picked her up the bird would tolerate everything she tried. So...no matter how good you think your harris is. Most that I have seen will not take the stuff from just anyone. Now amplify that a lot more with Imprints. The first Harris hawks I ever worked with at the conservancy where what you would call not normal. I know for a fact there are some mean ass Harris Hawks out there. As a 12y/o kid I was actually scared of these birds. Image evertime you went to one of the Harris chambers you had to worry about getting jumped. I figured out how to deal with them rather quick.

`Chris L.
05-07-2007, 09:57 PM
I too have worked with 2 imprint female Harris Hawks NB and DB at the conservancy. I have seen a sister to one of our bird DB at another conservancy. I would never try to imprint one after seeing/working with those birds. Dave is right and speaks the truth about why no one imprints Harris anymore. I have seen multiple Parent raised Harris Hawks. They will also show a little favor to perticular humans usally the most familiar handler. Shadow the Sponsor's Harris I flew this past year was like that. She would let me walk past her and stroke her on the back when on the perch no problem. When my wife tried the same thing she would bow up on her and acted like she was going to come off the perch at her. When Shannon got a glove and picked her up the bird would tolerate everything she tried. So...no matter how good you think your harris is. Most that I have seen will not take the stuff from just anyone. Now amplify that a lot more with Imprints. The first Harris hawks I ever worked with at the conservancy where what you would call not normal. I know for a fact there are some mean ass Harris Hawks out there. As a 12y/o kid I was actually scared of these birds. Image evertime you went to one of the Harris chambers you had to worry about getting jumped. I figured out how to deal with them rather quick.

Chris
If you want to hear some stories about Imprint Harris give me a call, I'll give you a ear full. It would take forever for me to write all my stories down.-Zach (904)568-0184.

Zach,
I beleive you for sure. There are a ton of people against harris hawks being imprinted. But, I have heard good ones being imprinted and they have made great game hawks.

It blows my mind how many people say how bad imprinting a harris hawk is; but that same person doesn't bat an eye at a face grabbing coopers hawk. [smilie=dontknow.gif] ..most just chalk it up to, " oh its just a coopers hawk"..

I have seen the same traits you speak of in chambered birds as well, as you have mentioned also.. I dont plan on imprinting one anytime soon. But, if someone wants to try, I dont see the difference between that and in imprinting a Gos or a coopers hawk. The jury is still out for me on imprinted harris hawks...But, these are just my beliefs...

Tiercel78
05-07-2007, 10:26 PM
Chris

I see where you are coming from in a way. I have see both sides and have heard the stories and seen the results. I'm aware that this might not be results for every bird. I would venture to say that it's probably present in 80-90percent some bird worst than others. I guess my question is what would a imprint Harris have over a CB Harris? I don't think you can find a better all around bird since most CB harris are already predesposed to people anyways.
IMO even if it's a great bird on game the negatives out weight the positives from the birds that I have seen.

`Chris L.
05-08-2007, 09:08 AM
Chris

I see where you are coming from in a way. I have see both sides and have heard the stories and seen the results. I'm aware that this might not be results for every bird. I would venture to say that it's probably present in 80-90percent some bird worst than others. I guess my question is what would a imprint Harris have over a CB Harris? I don't think you can find a better all around bird since most CB harris are already predesposed to people anyways.
IMO even if it's a great bird on game the negatives out weight the positives from the birds that I have seen.

Zach,
You mentioned a percent of about 80-90 for imprinted harris hawks to have traits that are undesirable or unmanageable... do you think it’s safe to say that you could say that about imprinting any falconry bird?

Again, let’s go back to accipiters in general... is face grabbing, screaming, arm and leg climbing something that you look for in a hunting partner? Sure it is, “that’s just accipiters". Why is that different than a possessive, head hitting harris, because CB a harris doesn’t do that? You and i both can answer that.

You mentioned why? Why imprint any bird for falconry? I flew great passage coops this year that was doing great, i saw no reason to imprint her or why others feel they need to. There is another member of the board that is doing great with his passage coops and we both were told we were crazy for flying passage coops, we were both told how we will fail and that only imprinted coops are the way to go. So why imprint any bird? We both have prooved that wrong...

My point being, that I don’t place harris hawks in any different category than any other bird in falconry when it comes to imprinting... I let failures of imprinting one species be universal. I also let the benefits of imprinting one species be universal. [smilie=dontknow.gif]

Again, these are just my thoughts on it. I am not taking on that project anytime soon. But, When I do, it will be documented for sure... failure or not. I appreciate your thoughts on it as it is good to hear what others feel the pros and cons are.

everetkhorton
05-08-2007, 11:27 AM
Why would you want to imprint a HH? What is the advantage over passage bird. What I see is there must be some reason that if better for the falconer, not the bird for sure.

wesleyc6
05-08-2007, 12:12 PM
One reason one might imprint one is if you did want it sexually responsive to a person. You know, to make hybrids and such. I was really teasin' a little and thinking a little. If he imprinted well, I could enjoy him for the season and then sell him to a breeder who wanted an imprinted tiercel for making hybrids.

`Chris L.
05-08-2007, 12:16 PM
Why would you want to imprint a HH? What is the advantage over passage bird. What I see is there must be some reason that if better for the falconer, not the bird for sure.

Ev,
Why imprint any bird? That will answer your question. I think that answer is open for individual interpretation.

everetkhorton
05-08-2007, 12:28 PM
Chris: I think there are bird that are hi risk bird for be lost. Some are hi strong. HH do not meet any of this risk. IMO.

buteoflyer2000
05-08-2007, 03:16 PM
If he imprinted well, I could enjoy him for the season and then sell him to a breeder who wanted an imprinted tiercel for making hybrids.
_________________

That's interesting. I know of a breeder that has tiercel that will not breed. He claims it's because he is too imprinted. Just thinking out loud. I know nothing about this.

Falcon Boy
05-08-2007, 03:30 PM
When they say imprint for breeding im pretty sure they mean as a semen donor. Will that breeders tiercel donate?

Tiercel78
05-08-2007, 04:12 PM
There is a major difference in the Harris vice every other raptor. Hence the reason they hold their own class as a parabuteo. They are a highly social bird and it takes a different mind set and usually a hierarchy to live in groups/packs. Usually it’s not the falconer but other people or animals that tend to be targets due to the bird viewing them as a lower ranking member.
Course there are a few cases of imprint falcons striking people in the field aswell. Everyone as heard of the nasty accipiters imprints. Accipiters I belive have had the most extensive behavioral studies by people like McDermount and others? Why do you think there has been more with the accipiters? Though I haven't read the whole book (Mikes newest) most seem to be derived from fear or food issues. At least thats what I get when I skim through. There are also the imprint birds that people just plainly mess up with and the bird turns out bad.
I wouldn't venture to say that 80-90 percent of all imprints turn out bad. There are plenty of accounts of imprint accipiters, falcons and even eagles that have turned out great. I guess my views would be different if I have heard or seen a good imprint Harris hawks.
The main reason for imprinting eyass birds in the beginning was due to lack of captive breeding. Modern reasons are due to birds that are high strung,tend to be fearful or likely to stray. Like Ev stated I don't see many of those problems with the Harris except for a select few. Now making hybrids is all together a different reason and If that is what your goal is then by all means.
All I'm trying to say is that usually there is a purpose in imprinting that you can't always get from wild or (parent raised)CBbirds. I just can't see the reason to have an imprint Harris over a parent raised Harris other than making Hybrids or lawsuits. Just my view on the matter thats all-Zach[/code]

chamokane
05-08-2007, 06:20 PM
There is a major difference in the Harris vice every other raptor. Hence the reason they hold their own class as a parabuteo. They are a highly social bird and it takes a different mind set and usually a hierarchy to live in groups/packs. Usually it’s not the falconer but other people or animals that tend to be targets due to the bird viewing them as a lower ranking member.
Course there are a few cases of imprint falcons striking people in the field aswell. Everyone as heard of the nasty accipiters imprints. with accipiters I belive there has been more extensive behavioral studies by people like McDermount and others? Though I haven't read the whole book (Mikes newest) most seem to be derived from fear or food issues. At least thats what I get when I skim through. There are also the imprint birds that people just plainly mess up with and the bird turns out bad.
I wouldn't venture to say that 80-90 percent of all imprints turn out bad. the are plenty of accounts of imprint accipiters, falcons and even eagles that have turned out great. I guess my views would be different if I have heard or seen a good imprint Harris hawks.
The main reason for imprinting eyass birds in the beginning was due to lack of captive breeding. Modern reasons are due to birds that are high strung,tend to be fearful or likely to stray. Like Ev stated I don't see many of those problems with the Harris except for a select few. Now making hybrids is all together a different reason and If that is what your goal is then by all means.
All I'm trying to say is that usually there is a purpose in imprinting that you can't always get from wild or (parent raised)CBbirds. I just can't see the reason to have an imprint Harris over a parent raised Harris other than making Hybrids or lawsuits. Just my view on the matter thats all-Zach[/code]

That was my understanding also. The difference between an imprint Coops and an imprint HH is that my imprint Coops might hurt me but my imprint HH might hurt you or someone's kids. The aggression of the Coops is mostly food related. The aggression of the imprint HH is pecking order, jealousy, anti foreigner related and might not show up until the bird is several years old.

I certainly don't have anything against imprints in general and I'm not an expert on the subject. I've only imprinted three birds, a Coops and two Peregrines and they all turned out fine.

Wes, from what I have read and been told, your idea of flying an imprint for a season and then putting him in an AI project might work fine. I was just passing on a general caution on the subject because of things that I read and things that I was told twenty years or so ago by folks who had first hand experience with flying imprint HHs. It never hurts to talk with people who have been there. It sounds like Zach has been there.

By the way Chris, I also like the passage female Coops. When I found one in my pigeon loft, I kept her and I really liked her. She was very easy to man, she hunted hard and she would come 1/4 mile to an ungarnished glove when I whistled. If the Western Coops wasn't so dang small I'd probably try to hunt the Ruffed Grouse around my place with one. How come you guys back east get the big Coops and the big RTs?

Next, we can have fun talking about imprint RTs. [smilie=eusa_doh.gif] [smilie=banana.gif]

everetkhorton
05-08-2007, 07:07 PM
Davy: Why did you imprint the two Peregrines?
Ev.

Lee Slikkers
05-09-2007, 07:23 AM
How come you guys back east get the big Coops and the big RTs? [smilie=eusa_doh.gif] [smilie=banana.gif]

Hey Dave, our pasage female Coops here in MI aren't overly large...I trapped one this spring at my pigeon loft as well. With an empty crop she tipped the scales at a "measly" 621 grams...

chamokane
05-09-2007, 02:55 PM
Davy: Why did you imprint the two Peregrines?
Ev.

Ev,

The female Peregrine was given to me at 12 days of age so I didn't have much choice. I imprinted the male thinking I would breed him with the female. Then, I took a job at an air force base doing bird control and I had to fly the birds hard year round. Now that I'm not working any more, I'm too lazy to take care of a breeding project and I just want to hunt all the time.

The female has always been well mannered and quiet. She's pretty friendly and likes to snuggle with my wife, which gives my wife something else to like about the birds. The male was obnoxious on a kill at first but that didn't last long. Now, he seems to like everyone and when he is fat, he tries to share his food with any visitors.

wesleyc6
05-09-2007, 03:00 PM
Dave,
It is hard to beat an imprint falcon that turns out well isn't it!!!! Actually my guess is that it is hard to beat an imprint raptor period when they turn out well.

However, I do understand the point about it being harder to come out with a better bird than a CB chamber raised HH.

chamokane
05-09-2007, 03:21 PM
How come you guys back east get the big Coops and the big RTs? [smilie=eusa_doh.gif] [smilie=banana.gif]

Hey Dave, our pasage female Coops here in MI aren't overly large...I trapped one this spring at my pigeon loft as well. With an empty crop she tipped the scales at a "measly" 621 grams...

Lee, that's huge, my Coops weighed 368 grams when I caught her and that's what I eventually flew her at. If she hadn't been so tame, I would have had to fly her quite a bit lighter. Watching her try to hold onto a 24oz Mountain Cottontail was pretty funny. The biggest one that I caught here weighed 480 grams with a little food in her crop.

chamokane
05-09-2007, 04:26 PM
Dave,
It is hard to beat an imprint falcon that turns out well isn't it!!!! Actually my guess is that it is hard to beat an imprint raptor period when they turn out well.

However, I do understand the point about it being harder to come out with a better bird than a CB chamber raised HH.

Wes, yeah imprints can be pretty nice. One of the best birds around here is an imprint female Gyr/Peregrine that belongs to a friend. She seems to be able to take anything she wants whenever she wants. She has killed a lot of geese and a good homer doesn't stand much of a chance. If she flies off, her owner never has to go look for her, she always comes back.

The only HH that I have flown was a small female chamber raised bird. For some reason, I used to let her ride loose in my Travelall. She would perch on the back of the back seat and not cause any problem. One day I picked up a young guy who was hitchhiking. As I started off, the hawk jumped up and landed on the guy's shoulder. It startled him but I told him she wasn't dangerous and the next thing I knew, the hawk was nibbling on his ear and making little chirping noises and the guy was giggling and patting the hawk on the back. It was pretty disgusting and I felt like stopping and kicking them both out.

bassistus
09-28-2008, 01:53 PM
Hi guys, im new to the forum and this is actually my first post. I see that there is a lot of debate on this subject and so i will give my opinion about my experinence in the subject here in Mexico.

First off Iīd like to say that here in Mexico about 80% of falconers flying and hunting with HH are doing it succesfully with imprints. Our main game is Hare (jackrabbits). But also duck and well, water fowl. Iīm not too sure about what you call our methond, if its dual imprinting or social imprinting, iīve heard a falconer say it is called the creche method, anyway, i donīt know but if anyone is interested in learning the method that we use here just let me know.

Imprint HH are excellent birds if trained well and I have yet to see a HH attack a person. Maybe this is due to imprinting done badly

It is interesting to me to see that most people have a negative idea about imprint HH and yet have no experience with one. Imprint HH are excellent birds if trained well and I have yet to see a HH attack a person. Maybe this is due to imprinting done badly, again, this is from my experience, iīd say Imprint HH are the best HH, if a little screaming doesnīt bother you, they are well worth it. Aggressiveness is definately NOT an issue for them here.

One thing i cannot comment on is the chamber raised HH, due to the fact that here that is not an option. So thatīs all i have to say about that.

"Why fly an imprint instead of a passage?" This is a pretty good question, I have had both and well, itīs hard to decide but mainly because you can train an imprint to anything a lot easier. I have had trouble with getting male passage HH to catch hare, it is not impossible but it sure is a lot harder than getting an imprint to do it. Basically I prefer imprint harris because it is so much easier and less time consuming to get them to do what you want them to do.

So basically that is my opinion, I hope I didnīt bore you or repeat things that have already been posted, it just amazes me how everywhere I read about imprint HH the negative pretty much outweighs the positive enough so that people donīt even try it

well cheers all!
Alberto Vargas

longbow
09-28-2008, 02:08 PM
I'm very interested in your imprinting process...................please explain your method of raising and training. I think a lot of folks on here would want to read this.

Sliverhawk
09-28-2008, 02:52 PM
I would also be very interested in how you imprint:D.

keithtsoar
09-29-2008, 08:27 AM
Years ago I flew an imprinted THH. The bird was given to me at 21 days old. I have to admit that for the type of flying I did it was the best bird I ever had. The only problem,s were that I could never fly it in a cast with other HH"s and no matter what I did it wouldnt chase rabbits if there was a dog any where nearby. I had a jack russel and that bird hated that dog. it wouldnt just make passes at the JR it would bind to it. But as far as catching game it was one of the best birds I ever flew. It was a very small HH only flew at 16 oz but if it touched a rabbit it was always caught. There were a few rodeo rides but I never remember that bird geting kicked off of a bunny. The bird got along well with all people. I could fly it by myself or at a mini meet with 15 others in the field. As long as no dogs were there.
Keith T

bassistus
09-29-2008, 11:58 AM
Well, the process is pretty simple. We take the birds at about one week of age. Since very small we introduce them to many things like the hood and what not but most importantly we introduce them to dogs. The more kinds of dogs introduced to them the better. Dogs spend a lot of time next to the chicks and that basically eliminates all the problems like the ones keith stated he had. Also they spend lotīs of time with other harriīs so they dual imprint, or social imprint. That way they have no problems hunting together.

We give them a well balanced diet of quail, squirrels, all kinds of birds etc so that they develop well. The feeding is done by hand.

Once they are able to stand and have some feathers in and are more active we itnroduce live "prey" to them. Small quail, small chickens or mice. I find that since they are already curious it is good to introduce them to killing as soon as possible. I think it helps them to develop the use of their talons as well as develop their caracter later on. Iīve had friends who decide not to do this and iīve seen that theyīre more passive when introduced to game and hunting.


Once all theyīre feathers come in we build them, put the jesses and such. The whole manning process takes about a week. Also, when they are feathered we take them everywhere with us so they donīt become scared of everything. We usually donīt use the hood, or at least I donīt, i find it useless when you have a bird that is used to the car and used to lots of people, etc...When they see more the get used to more things and so they fear less things. I do this because when they are hunting in a new place they donīt become distracted or scared by every new thing they see. We use the hood only when truly needed. I donīt know if i became too repetetive on this haha, if i did sorry about that.

After they are used to the glove and eating in the glove we start the training process wich is also very simple and iīm pretty sure is the same as everyone elses. Just the simple perch to glove step, and repeat. Create more distance until it is flying etc.

After they have been flying for not too long we plant a rabbit for them to kill. This is of course so that since young they donīt have the idea that the glove is the only source of food.

And thatīs basically it, it is very simple and very effective. My brotherīs girlfriend is very new to falconry and just had a chick and raised it this way. Last weekend we went out for hare and at the first sight of one it grabbed it by the tail, but unfortunately she didnīt capture it, but for her first time she was very excited hah.


Also, about the aggressiveness. If they show ANY signs of aggression we correct it right away. For example, I caress the bird a lot during the whole process so it is used to it, and so if iīm feeding it and caress it and it pecks at my hand because it bothers him, as soon as he does it I stick my finger down itīs throat for a second or two. It sounds weird or kind of primitve or what not but it is simple and it works. Next time he takes a peck at me I do it again. And thatīs all I ever had to do to stop any kind of aggressiveness. They say negative reinforcement doesnīt work but it is even more natural than positive and in a small case such as the hand pecking I see no problem with it.

I donīt know, and this is just my opinion but I find that the more you socially imprint a bird, the less aggressive towards people or whatever it is introduced to it is. As I said before on the post, I have never had or met an imprint harris that became a threat to humans or that was a handfull because of itīs aggressiveness. Also, note that their is NO change in their aggressiveness once they are sexually mature, I truly find it hard to believe that a HH would chase and grasp a person just to attack it, maybe itīs true maybe itīs not, but to me it just seems hard to believe.

Oh almost forgot, another advantage to this is that when they are sexually mature it is pretty easy to artificially insaminate, wich i will try next year.

Well thanks for the interest to those of you who read this and I look forward to opinions and also criticism, I donīt mind it really hah.


cheers!
Alberto Vargas

FredFogg
09-29-2008, 12:14 PM
We give them a well balanced diet of quail, squirrels, all kinds of birds etc so that they develop well. The feeding is done by hand.

Alberto Vargas

Couple of questions Alberto and thanks for telling us your method. You say you feed them by hand from 1 week on. Do you always let them see you give them the food and feeding by hand, does this mean you actually just hand the food to them or are they eating only off the glove once they are large enough to stand on the fist? And at what point do you stop hand feeding them? And last, do you train them to a lure? I guess as you can see, my main question is how you handle feeding through out the entire rearing!

Thanks,

bassistus
09-29-2008, 12:55 PM
hi again. Well, I hand feed them meaning, I give them the food literally from my hand. They see me very often and they know iīm the source of food. After they are a bit older and are able to eat by themselves I just hand them the food on a little plate and they eat it off it, but yes, they see me all the time. I only start the glove process when I see they are old enough to be built and to start training them. To me it usually is when they are fully feathered, maybe a week or two after, depending on their caracter and if I see they are ready.

I donīt train them to a lure. I donīt see the need because as I said before we hunt Jackrabbits mostly but I do plant them pigeons so that once the duck come in they hunt it as well.

Hope this answeres your questions.

wesleyc6
09-29-2008, 01:48 PM
Are they loud or quiet when you imprint them like that?

bassistus
09-29-2008, 03:47 PM
they are loud, but as I said before, if you donīt mind a bit of screaming itīs not really that big of a deal, after all if they donīt see you they donīt scream much and if they are on the fist they donīt scream much either. Basically only when they are bored. Also when they start hunting the screaming is reduced a bit, and after a year it reduces to practically nothing.