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FredFogg
06-09-2009, 04:57 PM
Just recieved this via email! I was unaware of this and we, members of NAFA, need to do something about it. We need to take back "our" club! Stuff like this is needs to stop happening!


Please take a look at this link:
http://mgouldlaw.com/NAFABeebeWebsterPetition/tabid/117/Default.aspx (http://mikedupuyhawkfood.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=d02896ae2d2a664a17274fe73&id=b98db8e99a&e=U6fZcV1XGq)
(http://mikedupuyhawkfood.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=d02896ae2d2a664a17274fe73&id=f4dee6f390&e=U6fZcV1XGq)



If you think this information is as important as I do, please forward
this e-mail to every falconer you know.



Briefly, here is what happened. A NAFA member—me—submitted a petition
signed by well over 5% of the membership in accordance with the bylaws
that the membership secretary—a former president of the club—deemed
“verified.” Then after months of delay I received a letter from a
lawyer and a copy of a lengthy legal memorandum from (expensive) local
Colorado counsel. (Keep in mind that up to that point I had not
consulted a lawyer.) Now, more months later, the NAFA board has
expressly declined to act on the petition despite the fact that a means
for doing so that fully complies with the bylaws has been demonstrated
to them.



We have started a Yahoo! Group, for you to provide whatever feedback you
would like (link at above site).



I want to be very clear: this matter is no longer about the subject of
the original petition, it is about whether:



- The views of the membership matter. - A small group of people gets to
decide what NAFA is and what it stands for. - NAFA's "Constitution and
Bylaws" should just be called "Suggestions and Ideas."



If you think the way this matter has been handled is objectionable, I
encourage you speak out.



After reading the documents in the web link assembled by 27-year NAFA
member, Matthew Gould, my attorney, I believe you will see the irony in
these same people sending you a ballot asking you to amend NAFA's bylaws
to make it more difficult for you the member to take a matter directly
to the membership by petition. (It is my understanding that the
Beebe/Webster petition was the first ever in NAFA's history.)



If you want to hear debate about the merits of the original matter of
Beebe/Webster's qualifications to be made honorary members, then please
complain to the NAFA Board for not allowing you to exercise your right
as an adult to reach your own conclusions and vote on the matter. But
do not let them trick you into thinking that is what this is about now.
If it were, we could have had that debate and voted on the issue over a
year ago!



This whole episode has been about one thing and that is POWER. Who
controls NAFA, a small group of insiders, or we the MEMBERS? The
decision will be up to you. If you believe the members should have a
say in how NAFA is run and what NAFA does, then spread the word and let
the current regime know where you stand!



All the best,



Mike Dupuy



mike@mikedupuyhawkfood.com
www.mikedupuyhawkfood.com (http://mikedupuyhawkfood.us1.list-manage.com/track/click?u=d02896ae2d2a664a17274fe73&id=745342b874&e=U6fZcV1XGq)
4552 Troxelville Road
Middleburg, PA 17842




phone: 570.837.1551




As a member of the falconry community we thought you would be interested in this issue. If you would not like to be contacted regarding these issues, please unsubscribe from the list. Please feel free to forward this e-mail to others in the community

sharptail
06-09-2009, 05:41 PM
Thanks for posting Fred! Another dirty little secret has gotten out!

Oh by the way did you see where Ralph Rogers has been nominated by the NAFA board for the recently vacated IAF, vice president for America.

ukroper
06-10-2009, 10:20 AM
''Then raise the scarlet standard high.
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.''


POWER TO THE PEOPLEpeaceebeeerbeeerpeacee

FredFogg
06-10-2009, 04:39 PM
Thanks for posting Fred! Another dirty little secret has gotten out!

Oh by the way did you see where Ralph Rogers has been nominated by the NAFA board for the recently vacated IAF, vice president for America.

Yeah, I did, but I am not going to say something about someone that isn't on here to defend themselves. But I can say, sure is funny how most of the NAFA directors won't join a forum and talk about some of this stuff that is going on. I know Eric is on here, maybe he will post about what happened that allowed this! I am also very surprised that more folks on here haven't made their views know about this subject on this thread! Maybe the members don't care who runs NAFA?

redtailnut
06-10-2009, 05:33 PM
With you fred but being overseas member we dont get a vote..

Saluqi
06-10-2009, 05:50 PM
I am also very surprised that more folks on here haven't made their views know about this subject on this thread! Maybe the members don't care who runs NAFA?

Maybe because it's ancient history and nobody gives a crap? Look at how few people vote in the NAFA ballots, that should tell you something. Same goes for who runs NAFA, again it's all in the numbers....

Jimmy
06-10-2009, 05:53 PM
Fred,
Nothing will ever change with NAFA. Get used to the idea. For the past 7 years I've heard nothing but complaints about them. But everyone always says to stay a member, that change will never come otherwise. I finally got my change the day I didn't renew. I must say, I'm quite happy now!

FredFogg
06-10-2009, 05:57 PM
Maybe because it's ancient history and nobody gives a crap? Look at how few people vote in the NAFA ballots, that should tell you something. Same goes for who runs NAFA, again it's all in the numbers....

Yeah, it tells me something! It tells me the majority of falconers that are NAFA members are lazy asses! They can bitch about things but they can't take the time to vote. And the numbers don't matter if the members aren't allowed to vote on something that was supposed to be voted on by the members.

Mods, you can just close this thread, I can see it going no where.

outhawkn
06-10-2009, 06:07 PM
Yeah, I did, but I am not going to say something about someone that isn't on here to defend themselves. But I can say, sure is funny how most of the NAFA directors won't join a forum and talk about some of this stuff that is going on. I know Eric is on here, maybe he will post about what happened that allowed this! I am also very surprised that more folks on here haven't made their views know about this subject on this thread! Maybe the members don't care who runs NAFA?

Tired of fighting nafa, its a good ol'boys club. Always has been, always will be................frus

Mitchellbrad
06-10-2009, 06:16 PM
It tells me the majority of falconers that are NAFA members are lazy asses! They can bitch about things but they can't take the time to vote. And the numbers don't matter if the members aren't allowed to vote on something that was supposed to be voted on by the members.

I quit em. Didn't go out like a lion or screaming, kick'n and hollering, just dropped my membership and forgot about it. I quit WRTC too. I'm tired of fighting battles when the biggest advisary has a hawk on his fist. No siree I'm not fighting falconers!!! I'm certainly not alone either. Does my leaving along with some other long time NAFA members matter? Probably not. It simply isn't important to us anymore.

If you notice I hardly bitch anymore nor do I post on anything confrontational. Been there then asked myself why.

Gone hawk'n instead of just a talk'n.

ikcus
06-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Gone hawk'n instead of just a talk'n.

clapp

sevristh
06-10-2009, 07:06 PM
amennn

It took me exactly one year (my first as a falconer) to realize I didn't want to be a part of them anymore...

goshawks00
06-10-2009, 07:23 PM
Brad I hear ya ... I am about done with NAFA also... that said... I personally could care less whether W/B ever get memberships... I have long forgot why but seem to remember both doing major violations concerning raptors..
Oh well don't think I'll be losing sleep either way..

sharptail
06-10-2009, 07:39 PM
So much for united we stand! I guess it is divided we fall. I am sure that no one has forgotten that the some good ol boys club has and will continue to set the rules by which we hawk. I hope you all like them! Those who don't work for better have no room to bitch!

wyodjm
06-10-2009, 08:26 PM
Some of us do have room to gripe. Below is an email sent to NAFA director David Wadsworth. He asked me to cite specifics. I did. I imagine he didn't like my response to him or my reasons for leaving NAFA. He never responded back to me. My E-mail to Mr. Wadsworth will hopefully give some perspective.

I wish all NAFA members would read my letter to Mr. Wadsworth. I wonder how many people on here will actually read this.

I'm not griping. I'm simply providing this information. I headed NAFA's Eagle Committee for over 10 years. I was a major player. We have eagles now. I always thought of myself as a falconer's falconer. I guess some of NAFA's new leadership thinks differently.

In any event, I provide this for your review.

ATB,

Dan McCarron

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sunday, January 10, 2009

Hello Mr. Wadsworth:

Ok, fair enough. You asked. As per Mr. Hunley's and your request, please allow me to give a few specific reasons as to why I won't be renewing my NAFA membership.

To bring you up to speed: There was a bit of a problem last spring when several out of state eagle falconers came to Wyoming to trap passage eagles for falconry in the only falconry eagle trapping, depredation area in the United States. Using steel leg hold traps and baiting animal carcasses, these eagle trappers set out to trap eagles for falconry purposes in the Red Desert of southwest Wyoming.

One haggard, male Golden Eagle was caught in one of these traps and was found starved to death a couple of weeks after everyone went home. It was discovered near a rig by an oil field worker and reported to the Wyoming Game and Fish Dept. I was asked by Wyoming Game and Fish to come in and identify, sex, and age the eagle. I had the dead eagle with its leg still in the trap in my hands. One live, haggard Bald Eagle was also discovered earlier in one of these traps, but was released by a Wyoming Game Warden. In both
circumstances, the two traps that caught the two eagles were identical. They were eagle falconers' traps because I have seen the traps before in the field. The traps had light chain
drags attached to them and the eagles had drifted away from the trap sites after being caught. To me, this meant that the traps just weren't being supervised and watched closely. No one probably knew the two eagles had even been caught. The trapping sites were just disasters waiting to happen. In addition several ravens had been caught and killed in these jaw traps with their legs crushed. These non-target corvids were simply discarded along the road next to the trapping sites. At least one of the trappers was asked to leave Wyoming by the wildlife official in charge. Not all of the traps were accounted
for when the co-op participants left the area and many of the trappers were not
getting along very well.

After working so long to set up the harvest of passage Golden Eagles in Wyoming, I was concerned when the eagle trapping co-ops were formed, nearly ten years ago. What's an eagle trapping co-op? It's a group of people from around the country who put a few hundred dollars into a pot and agree to gather once a year in Wyoming to help each other trap an eagle for everyone in the group with a license. Everyone shares traps. I imagine,(not sure, I've never been involved with eagle trapping co-ops) many of these people have never laid eyes on each other before coming to these trapping gatherings, which is another formula for disaster.

Few falconers pursue their falconry activities alone. I'm no exception. Daryl Peterson, Jack Stoddart, a few others and I discussed our concerns before the news of the trapping scandal in the spring of 2008 broke. I knew of problems with the co-ops in 2006 and 2007, but I had no way of working with the NAFA eagle committee. Essentially the NAFA Eagle committee is a liaison between the eagle club (IEAA) and the NAFA president, so both organizations condoned the co-ops, jaw traps, and not monitoring the traps prior to the scandal in 2008. It is my understanding NAFA has an eagle committee but they just report to the NAFA president and do not report to the NAFA board or the membership.

When the Wyoming Game and Fish Department became aware of the haggard bald eagle, the dead Golden Eagle that starved to death in one of the jaw traps, and the dead corvids with broken legs near a couple to trapping sets in the spring of 2008, NAFA did not step up to work out the issues. The co-ops and the IEAA defended the use of jaw traps. The fact is, at different times, the two co-ops had about a hundred traps spread out across an area fifty miles wide. They would check the traps, take the eagles back to a central hotel and distribute them to those who were in attendance. Few of these folks ever met one another prior to arriving in Wyoming. In my view the co-ops worked as schools for trapping eagles. Anyone with a federal permit could pay a fee to learn how to trap with jaw traps and obtain an eagle. I thought the NAFA board was against falconry schools.

Jack Stoddart volunteered to fill an opening on the NAFA eagle committee and the current NAFA president essentially ignored his request. Stoddart was associated with several Golden Eagle surveys and studies dating back to 1965. Working on projects trapping Golden Eagles in the mid 1970's, together with his hawking experience with Golden Eagles overshadows all the other members of the NAFA eagle committee put together.

If any NAFA committee is needed why should that committee only report to the NAFA president?

Eagle harvest for falconry in the U S has been most likely shutdown because of the behaviors of a few individuals with eagle falconry permits. This happened not because of a dysfunctional bureaucrat or any group or individual that was against falconry. It was not because of DDT, or a decline in eagle populations. Falconers, themselves, have probably caused the closure of the only designated eagle depredation area (for falconry) in the United States. Yet NAFA has not responded to any part of this event. NAFA has sat back and waited. They allowed the IEAA and the trapping coops to handle eagles for falconry on NAFAʼs behalf. Officially, NAFA supports jaw traps for trapping eagles.

Is NAFA functional? That is the question. From my view, sitting here at home in Wyoming, looking at my eagle fully understanding the history of how much it took for us to get here, it is clear NAFA dropped another ball. Just because the NAFA board was too busy fighting among themselves and focused on agenda items that turned the boardʼs protocols upside down, is no excuse.

Since a few inept eagle trappers can shutdown eagle trapping on a national level and NAFA has not even made a statement about the matter to their members, I conclude NAFA is not viable. It is clearly in decline.

Have you read the December 2008 Hawk Chalk? Have you studied the 2008 NAFA agendas on the NAFA website? When I joined in 1975, NAFA was a service organization committed to working to make falconry a legal field sport, providing a network for falconers to connect with one another and the goal was to have as many permitted falconers living in Canada and the US belong to NAFA as possible. At some point, after Alan Beske resigned from his NAFA position, NAFAʼs focus shifted. During 2008, the words raptor and falconry appeared in
few of the board's agenda items. The NAFA board was focused on the conflicts within the board. Granted, falconry is now legal to varying degrees in the majority of the states and provinces. It is also clear, however, that the NAFA board is no longer focused on gaining membership. It is my understanding that one NAFA director made the comment that he didn't care if people quit NAFA and started their own organization. The changes in the NAFA directory indicate the board would prefer to hinder the ability of falconers from around the country to connect with one another.

It has been my observation that new NAFA directors only focus on issues they have been coached on prior to becoming a NAFA director. They are not students of falconry. They are not informed as to NAFA's history or the history of the laws that manage recreation of falconry state to state. So someone has to feed the new NAFA directors the information. The problem with that is they are fed information that is hearsay and much of the information is often inaccurate or heavily filtered. Do the NAFA officers think that Wyoming magically decided to fight with the feds to allow falconers to come to Wyoming to trap their own eagles? Do they assume NAFA did the work? Does the NAFA administration think
that it is a mere coincidence that the only area in the United States to trap an
eagle out of the wild for falconry purposes is in my backyard?

Sadly, most long wingers who hawk in eagle country hate Golden Eagles. Most U.S. falconers don't care about Golden Eagles and most of the people who have thought about obtaining a Golden Eagle are pet keepers. Many permit holders do not live in an area where eagles can be flown effectively and the majority of the eagles taken in Wyoming have not taken game. Stoddart is a founding NAFA kid and a charter member of NAFA. If anyone studies Golden Eagle research, they should be able to find his name on some of that research. He has never had a rehab permit, but he had a Golden Eagle on his falconry permit longer than any other falconer in the US. And he has been my friend for over 25 years. How could the NAFA president ignore Stoddart? Doesn't NAFA want competent
people serving on its special committees? Why did Darryl Perkins remove me as the NAFA Eagle Committee Chairman after working so hard to get eagles for American falconers? Was it because the real work was done? Why did Perkins remove me as Chairman after getting Wyoming open to keep eagles for falconry and then open to trap eagles for residents and nonresidents in Wyoming? Was appointing a different Chairman from another state more appropriate? These are hard questions and they all point to politics at the expense of other people. Do the last two NAFA presidents assume the head of the NAFA Eagle Committee has taken more game with Golden Eagles than I have or Stoddart has? Does the board assume the chairman of the NAFA Eagle Committee has trapped more eagles than I have or Stoddart has?

Falconry is a hunting sport. I'm a hunter. When I opened up eagle trapping in Wyoming my friends (including Frank Bond) and I knew many of the eagles would be acquired by pet keepers and folks would assume Golden Eagles were like big Harris' Hawks or big redtails. They're not. On a positive note, a few have done well with their eagles taken in Wyoming. I do not think all of the people associated with the co-ops are inept. As eagle trappers, they took the easiest route and somehow ignored the other traditional methods available. They were sold an opportunity to acquire an eagle for a fee. A small group of people
spread a hundred traps across a fifty mile area and left the jaw traps unattended. Eagles were injured. At least one died. They trapped Bald Eagles as well. Ravens and a few other raptors also died. And they lost several traps that they could not account for.

This is 2009 and it appears the harvest of depredating eagles in Wyoming for falconry will be shut down this spring and a good deal of work will have to be done to reopen trapping at a later date. It depends on USDA/Wildlife Services in Wyoming.

Now some of NAFA's administration and directors think I'm upset, or angry, or out of control. Let me put it all into perspective for you. At somepoint, a peregrine trapping co-op may leave a couple of drowned peregrines attached to pigeon harnesses on a beach in Texas. Maybe then you folks will get a rough idea how I feel. The NAFA board has to make an assessment of these eagle trapping co-ops and the current NAFA Eagle committee. All of this stuff went on under NAFA's nose and NAFA did absolutely nothing but stick its head in the sand. How many committees does NAFA have? Perhaps, if NAFAʼs Eagle committee had reported to the NAFA board some of these problems would have been addressed.

Wyoming is the patron saint of nonresident harvest of raptors for falconry purposes in the United States. Nonresidents have been able to trap passage gyrs, and eyass and passage goshawks, Ferruginous hawks, Merlins, Prairie Falcons, and other raptor species in Wyoming for over 40 years with absolutely no impact on the raptor resource whatsoever. Wyoming also allows the taking of passage golden eagles to properly licensed falconers. Ask Don Hunley why Alaska hasn't opened up a nonresident raptor harvest. Talk to the falconers that have lived in Montana for a long time and ask them what Ralph Rogers has been
doing in Montana to help establish a nonresident take.

Thank you for prompting me to provide you with specific examples. You make a good point. As you mentioned Mr. Wadsworth, if you interact over the internet, you run the great risk of having your personal e-mails becoming public. Please feel free to distribute this e-mail as you see fit. Just make certain the current NAFA administration doesn't filter the information.

What I have shared with you are just some of the many reasons I'm not going to renew my NAFA membership. I will not debate any of this information either. I'm not handing every bit of information to you on a silver platter. The new NAFA board should do their own research on what has transpired. You do not have to take my word on any of this. All of this information is verifiable. You can gather your own information from multiple sources, as I have. Just for fun, why don't you compare the proposed federal falconry regulations, to NAFAʼs formal response to them, to the final federal falconry regulations. Then you decide how much impact NAFA formally had on the federal regulations. I'm tired of trying to wake NAFA up. I don't belong to NAFA any longer. Iʼm going hawking.

Respectfully,

Dan McCarron
Rock Springs, Wyoming

sevristh
06-10-2009, 08:57 PM
amennn clappclappclapp

Well said and done Dan!

I especially like the part where you pointed out that you are a hunter and therefore are more qualified than many of the 'board members'. We have a similar situation in our state club... Sad to see politicians take over and then secure themselves with 'buddies' around them.

sharptail
06-10-2009, 09:21 PM
Great read thanks for posting it! Your anger and frustration are valid! You have done far more for falconry than most!

Where do we go from here? NAFA is defunct and corrupt. How do we now access the changes to the law, to make falconry what it should be? How do we make the laws befitting what was the most free country in the world? How will bailing out of NAFA change things? I am willing to go there, just show me how!

sevristh
06-10-2009, 09:39 PM
In my admittedly limited knowledge of this whole situation, I really don't see NAFA being 'bailed out' or 'turned around'. I think it will take some new group (Not saying the WRTC is or isn't it) that people feel they can line up behind in order to actually change things. Just my .02...

wyodjm
06-10-2009, 11:04 PM
In my admittedly limited knowledge of this whole situation, I really don't see NAFA being 'bailed out' or 'turned around'. I think it will take some new group (Not saying the WRTC is or isn't it) that people feel they can line up behind in order to actually change things. Just my .02...

NAFA isn't bad. There's hope for NAFA. I would venture to say that most NAFA members aren't even aware of the serious problems within the club. They don't have access to solid information in order to make informed decisions. I seriously believe that the current NAFA leadership filters much of the information that the membership receives as a whole. These people are very controlling are on power trips.

These same people also think they are the most qualified to make the decisions for everyone. You and I aren't qualified. You aren't smart enough. You haven't got the experience to take a leadership position within the club. In addition, all future leadership within NAFA will be groomed by the outgoing leadership, so there is this self perpetuating system of denial and dysfunction.

joekoz
06-10-2009, 11:05 PM
amennn

It took me exactly one year (my first as a falconer) to realize I didn't want to be a part of them anymore...


DITTO!

killjoy
06-11-2009, 10:02 AM
NAFA reminds me of the book Animal Farm.

I am sure in the beginning everything was awesome, a bunch of young people with a great cause, rebelling against all that was against you.

but what do you do when the club you joined to rebel against, becomes what you rebel against?

Dan,
I read your letter, it was powerful. i am sure the person that wanted a reason thought you had NO reason to quit.

My sponsor told me about the eagle trapping situation. he is a master that flew an eagle, and he was offended by the people who put such a black eye on falconry.


So a serious question:

what do you do about it?
is the state club any better? is wrtc better?

on the forums it seems like the only time a group of people bitch is when it comes voting time. the letter at the top raised my dander, but i am not a NAFA member, so i didnt find it proprer to complaine about it.

although NOT having the founding fathers of falconry as honered members of a national or state club is disgraceful. when i first got into this sport thoes were the first 2 names i heard.

Sad really.

Even sadder that membersip of the club has no clue of whats behind the curtain.

Migisi
06-11-2009, 12:21 PM
.... I'm simply providing this information. I headed NAFA's Eagle Committee for over 10 years....

Dan, if you were still in that position, what would you have done - or what action would you have recommended that NAFA or the IEAA take - about the eagle trapping co-ops, and the illegal/unethical behavior of the trappers involved in the 2008 incident?

(I let my NAFA membership lapse years ago, and have never been an IEAA member, so I'm not defending or excusing either. Just curious how you would've handled these problems.)

To the thread subject, I question why Hal would even want to be a NAFA member (honorary or other). If he does (has anyone asked him?), I wonder why. Since Frank is no longer with us, the point is moot, IMO.

wyodjm
06-11-2009, 01:22 PM
Dan, if you were still in that position, what would you have done - or what action would you have recommended that NAFA or the IEAA take - about the eagle trapping co-ops, and the illegal/unethical behavior of the trappers involved in the 2008 incident?

(I let my NAFA membership lapse years ago, and have never been an IEAA member, so I'm not defending or excusing either. Just curious how you would've handled these problems.)

To the thread subject, I question why Hal would even want to be a NAFA member (honorary or other). If he does (has anyone asked him?), I wonder why. Since Frank is no longer with us, the point is moot, IMO.

That's a fair question. It's also a very good question.

I guess I would have at least had NAFA come out with some type of position statement about the use of steel jaw traps to trap eagles. I'm not saying a statement to condemn the use of steel jaw traps. (or modified steel jaw traps) I've used modified jaw traps in the past to trap eagles. But I was trained by some of the leading eagle scientific researchers in the country that developed the whole concept of using them to trap eagles for research. There's a difference.

This is where it gets sensitive. I don't think the use of modified steel jaw traps should be outlawed to trap eagles if people are properly trained to use them and they watch and monitor those traps that they have on the ground. You don't check these types of traps every several hours in the hopes of catching an eagle like you would if you were snagging a carp on a trot line.

NAFA could have come out with a statement suggesting the use of other traditional trapping methods and discourage anyone from using jawed traps to trap eagles unless they were properly trained. You just can't grab a bunch of traps, throw them on the ground with a few dead rabbit carcasses, and call it good. These are non residents coming to Wyoming (currently the only place in North America where licensed falconers can come and trap a wild passage eagle) as guests of Wyoming.

Another issue that concerns me deeply is that the NAFA president recently stated NAFA's go to organization concerning the use of eagles for falconry purposes in the United States, is the IEAA. Why in the world would NAFA turn over an entire facet of falconry to another organization when NAFA is supposed to be the national falconry organization? Why didn't they turn over the monitoring of the use of eagles for falconry to the AFC, or the NRA, or Ducks Unlimited? Some major politics going on here.

All this suggests that NAFA really isn't concerned about eagles. That's fine. They never really have been, were, or will be. That's why they put me in charge of them almost 20 years ago. It's a very specialized facet of falconry. But that is no reason to just dump the whole thing into the hands of a completely separate and independent organization.

This leads into another $64 question: Why even have a NAFA eagle committee if they have no practical purpose? When I was the Chairman of NAFA's eagle committee, there was a legitimate need. No one could get eagle falconry permits and those that could had very over restrictive conditions on their permits. We also couldn't get eagles out of the wild. We can now. My job was basically done. What is the purpose of the committee now? I think NAFA and the current NAFA eagle committee missed a wonderful window of opportunity to step up and take some action when the scandal in Wyoming made news last year. They missed their opportunity. What type of position did the IEAA take? The AFC (WRTC) came out with a position statement and NAFA had heartburn over it. Why? What did NAFA do? What did the IEAA do?

Just a few random thoughts in an attempt to answer your question. The bottom line is there is a tremendous void in terms of solid leadership within NAFA. Sometimes you just have to stand up and say the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.

ATB,

Dan

goshawks00
06-11-2009, 02:06 PM
Dan as usual an accurate,I suppose ,and precise account of the events to date... Very sad indeed.
I also found it curious, if not amusing and a kind of slight of hand that you used a quote from Jack Herer, rather than Hans Christen Anderson.<G>
Barry

Saluqi
06-11-2009, 02:38 PM
Hi Dan,

Just to play devils advocate here. Suppose NAFA had come out with a position paper on leg hold traps for eagles, do you think this would have prevented the folks in this eagle coop from using them and thus avoiding the whole debacle? Knowing how single minded falconers tend to be when it comes to obtaining a bird - especially for what most of those people in that coop was probably a once in a lifetime bird - I sort of doubt that NAFA's words would have had any effect on their trapping etiquette. Just a guess here, but how many of those people in the eagle coop were actually NAFA members, probably less than half, so they may never have heard an edict from NAFA had one been issued.

Wouldn't establishing a Wyoming based eagle falconers group through your state club and in conjunction with your game and fish department where WY eagle falconers such as yourself act as trapping guides been a better way of protecting the resource? The WY game & fish could make it part of their regulations for obtaining an eagle. I'm not an advocate of more regulation, but with such a limited resource like golden eagles having to jump through lots of hoops to obtain one is par for the course, and now the take is suspended.

FredFogg
06-11-2009, 02:49 PM
So a serious question:

what do you do about it?
is the state club any better? is wrtc better?



Mike, that is the million dollar question! I don't know the answers, but I can tell you one thing, you don't bail! The sad thing is falconers don't realize that NAFA and the feds hold hands. The feds decide what we can and can't do. We need to have the right people that will do what "we", the members as a majority, want done with falcorny in the U.S. If we let a select few decide for us, the majority isn't deciding what falconry is going to be in the future. My solution is communication! Everything that is going on and goes on needs to be made public. Every falconer should know and should get off their lazy asses and vote based on the facts. It is pitiful the number of members that vote each time there is a vote. We all want the silver lining but can't even take a few minutes to research the facts and then make a decision on what we have learned. What has happened to NAFA happens every day to corporations across the U.S., someone new comes in with ideas and aspirations to make things better, then they get NAFAsized and are told how things are and how they are done and they become just like the people that are already there. It happens in businesses, I have seen it at where I work. It happens in NAFA.

But the matter of Beebe and Webster, well, my opinion is just look at what they have done over the years, how could you not make them honarary members. Sure, they did stuff a long, long time ago that wasn't right. If anyone has done any research, they can find out about that. But my question is were they charged with a crime, were they convicted of a crime? NO, they weren't! To be honest, the laws back then were so unclear, no one could really say what was right or wrong. But the facts are they weren't convicted, so all those falconers that didn't like what they did, to bad. I think the good they have done far out weighs the bad and they should become honarary members. But to have a petition with the right amount of folks signing it be swept under the table, well, that just isn't right. And it can't be allowed to happen again. Name one falconry book that almost every falconer has in their library and/or was told to have and I bet it will be North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks. That in itself, should be enough to become honaray members!

Dirthawking
06-11-2009, 02:54 PM
Mike, that is the million dollar question! I don't know the answers, but I can tell you one thing, you don't bail! The sad thing is falconers don't realize that NAFA and the feds hold hands. The feds decide what we can and can't do. We need to have the right people that will do what "we", the members as a majority, want done with falcorny in the U.S. If we let a select few decide for us, the majority isn't deciding what falconry is going to be in the future. My solution is communication! Everything that is going on and goes on needs to be made public. Every falconer should know and should get off their lazy asses and vote based on the facts. It is pitiful the number of members that vote each time there is a vote. We all want the silver lining but can't even take a few minutes to research the facts and then make a decision on what we have learned. What has happened to NAFA happens every day to corporations across the U.S., someone new comes in with ideas and aspirations to make things better, then they get NAFAsized and are told how things are and how they are done and they become just like the people that are already there. It happens in businesses, I have seen it at where I work. It happens in NAFA.

But the matter of Beebe and Webster, well, my opinion is just look at what they have done over the years, how could you not make them honarary members. Sure, they did stuff a long, long time ago that wasn't right. If anyone has done any research, they can find out about that. But my question is were they charged with a crime, were they convicted of a crime? NO, they weren't! To be honest, the laws back then were so unclear, no one could really say what was right or wrong. But the facts are they weren't convicted, so all those falconers that didn't like what they did, to bad. I think the good they have done far out weighs the bad and they should become honarary members. But to have a petition with the right amount of folks signing it be swept under the table, well, that just isn't right. And it can't be allowed to happen again. Name one falconry book that almost every falconer has in their library and/or was told to have and I bet it will be North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks. That in itself, should be enough to become honaray members!
amennn
clapp
Well said!

Migisi
06-11-2009, 02:55 PM
Thanks for your reply, Dan. Appreciate it.

The fact that NAFA dumped the eagle on another separate org proves that NAFA does NOT (and doesn't want to) represent all falconers in the country - despite their claim and boast.

Todd Brown
06-11-2009, 03:24 PM
I know that this thread is not really about Beebe and Webster and I agree with what people are saying here.....but, for the life of me,I can't understand why NAFA wouldn't want them as lifetime honorary members....It's a no brainer.

Fred stated it exactly right. NAFA should be member run."We need to take back our club"
___________
Todd

goshawks00
06-11-2009, 03:31 PM
Fred being charged and convicted, isn't the issue is it? Because they weren't does that mean they are innocent? Doesn't matter as i said to me... and no I wouldn't have voted one way or another.. Doesn't make me lazy, just uninterested... would it change my falconry if i voted one way or another ..nope... so it's a non issue.
As far as how NAFA handled it... that is wrong.. I have seen this many times, not only in NAFA but even in our state org.. The feeling or sentiment is you voted us to run the club ... so we will... we don't need you tell us how to do it.. The other missing part in both orgs is there is a very disfunctional avenue for member input and discussion WITH ( less those reading this get a hair) a very low participation rate from said members.
I am so looking forward to a discussion site for NAFA where members can weigh in on subjects and not have to wait for their appointed mouthpieces to decide when and what to diseminate to it's members... that in a nut shell is the only reason I have stayed with NAFA. It is not a democracy ran by the people for the people, but rather a minority speaking for the majority , some, if not most of time, wrongly..
The most current event , is the recommendation of Rogers appointment without any say from the membership... I for one am tired of the old regime and old NAFA practices appoint old regime members to continue the sad way NAFA is being ran.
Barry

Leon Crumpler
06-11-2009, 03:33 PM
When something in falcony goes right or wrong is affects us all, it doesn't matter what bird we are flying. I think possibly one way to get there attention is at the meet, everyone needs to demand not ask for what they want. I can see where NAFA members don't see the need to vote as it seems everything is decided for the members and not by the members. We should get to vote for every office in NAFA. I for one don't like there private meetings, all the meetings should be held in public.

I am willing to do my part.

Todd Brown
06-11-2009, 03:35 PM
In falconry one makes descisions all the time and sooner or later your going to make some bad ones. There's not a single falconer that hasn't made some bad mistakes.

To My knowledge,nobody has made the impact that these two gentlemen have in our sport.We all owe them a debt of gratitude.Inspite of what ever missteps they have made.
____________
Todd

FredFogg
06-11-2009, 05:11 PM
Fred being charged and convicted, isn't the issue is it? Because they weren't does that mean they are innocent?

You are exactly right Barry, that isn't the issue! The issue is the petition was swept under the table. And I am sorry, I disagree, if they weren't convicted of anything, then they are innocent, according to the law.

Doesn't matter as i said to me... and no I wouldn't have voted one way or another.. Doesn't make me lazy, just uninterested... would it change my falconry if i voted one way or another ..nope... so it's a non issue.

Again, I disagree, if NAFA is going to be run by the members, they all need to vote on all issues, whether you are interested or not. Everything has to do with falconry one way or another. It all relates, you might not give a damn about them being honarary members or about eagle situation, but those are your fellow falconers and it all comes back to your falconry eventually.

As far as how NAFA handled it... that is wrong.. I have seen this many times, not only in NAFA but even in our state org.. The feeling or sentiment is you voted us to run the club ... so we will... we don't need you tell us how to do it.. The other missing part in both orgs is there is a very disfunctional avenue for member input and discussion WITH ( less those reading this get a hair) a very low participation rate from said members.

I totally agree with you here Barry, it has happened in NAFA and I see it happening in state clubs also. Our state club wants our input, but when I mentioned was there a way we could possibly get a list of the issues that concerns everyone and vote on what was important so we could tackle them in order instead of letting the officers decide, I was told that would be great, why don't you do that. Now, I am all for helping my club, but if I had the time to do this, I would have run for office or volunteered for it. Instead, they try and dump it off on the person that suggest something and then if and when they can't do it, it never gets done. And others see that if they suggest something, they will be told to do it, so no one wants to suggest anything. It sure is a catch 22 situation!

I am so looking forward to a discussion site for NAFA where members can weigh in on subjects and not have to wait for their appointed mouthpieces to decide when and what to diseminate to it's members... that in a nut shell is the only reason I have stayed with NAFA. It is not a democracy ran by the people for the people, but rather a minority speaking for the majority , some, if not most of time, wrongly..
The most current event , is the recommendation of Rogers appointment without any say from the membership... I for one am tired of the old regime and old NAFA practices appoint old regime members to continue the sad way NAFA is being ran.
Barry

I really would like to see a forum for NAFA members, so things can be discussed, but I don't see the old school letting that happen. It is a great idea and a great way to communicate with all the members. I sure hope it happens. And I can't agree more, why does the board get to recommend someone for an appointment without the say of the members, we should get to nominate people and the members vote on it. I still have hope that the members will speak up and changes will be made, but it is going to be hard if everyone doesn't participate.

sharptail
06-11-2009, 05:20 PM
I read an article that said that Beebe was charged, convicted and paid a fine for smuggling in Canada.

goshawks00
06-11-2009, 07:02 PM
Yes Jeff that happened but doesn't count<G>. Fred whether there was a conviction, or even charges doesn't stop the fact about what they did. But I agree with you the issue is the way NAFA board handled it ..in that we are in total lock step.
Now then as far as the eagle issue you make it sound as if I thought it was right what happened. that's not the case at all, I do believe Dan has stated it the way it was from his point of view, and I believe he is correct in his interpetation... I do believe NAFA should have handled it better than they did.... and no it doesn't matter to me how it plays out as far as eagles go.... The same way that no one cares about the way importation of raptors are handled because they don't import... do you hear anyone concerned about that... Is NAFA aware of it..sure ...are they you doing anything about it...are you, why not it's your falconry..

Fred you are talking out of both sides of your mouth...( sorry not a put down but it does appear you are taking both sides when it pleases you to make a point) first because it isn't an issue with me, you say it should because it effects my falconry...right?.... then you tell me your club says you can something that you recommend be done, but you don't want to and say that it's the clubs responsibility.... don't you think you should contribute, being that it effects your falconry? Are you paying your club officers a salary to do your work for you? Are they using the same amount of hours in a day as you? Fred maybe I'm missing something here... if it all has to do with your falconry , as you say, don't you think you should be involved.

Barry

FredFogg
06-11-2009, 08:07 PM
Fred you are talking out of both sides of your mouth...( sorry not a put down but it does appear you are taking both sides when it pleases you to make a point) first because it isn't an issue with me, you say it should because it effects my falconry...right?.... then you tell me your club says you can something that you recommend be done, but you don't want to and say that it's the clubs responsibility.... don't you think you should contribute, being that it effects your falconry? Are you paying your club officers a salary to do your work for you? Are they using the same amount of hours in a day as you? Fred maybe I'm missing something here... if it all has to do with your falconry , as you say, don't you think you should be involved.

Barry

Barry, how sweet of you to try and not insult me, but you still did! LOL But I am not like others, I just ignore little snide comments made about me because it gets boring going back and forth about little things like that(remember your little smart ass remark about the spars in the chat room, how embarassing for you). And yes, I should do things for my club, and I do. But the point was when a suggestion is made, they don't ask if anyone would like to do this, they immediatly throw it up to the person who suggested it to do it. And that will make others think about not making suggestions if they can't do it. That isn't the way to get things done as an organization or club. And others have a lot more free time than I do, I work 12 hours a day, go to school from 8 to 1 p.m. and sleep about 3 hours a day. I think someone else would have more time to contribute than I. And I know many that would, but they aren't asked because the officers don't ask the membership. That was my point.

goshawks00
06-11-2009, 10:11 PM
Actually the snid remark you are referring to was a joke... then I thought what the heck what do I care about you toungeout. Others got it! Your point holds no merit... if yopu aren't willing to do something why make the suggestion that others do it... Ever heard of the little red hen??? Oh wait maybe that goes with another thread. crazyy
Barry

FredFogg
06-11-2009, 11:23 PM
Actually the snid remark you are referring to was a joke... then I thought what the heck what do I care about you toungeout. Others got it!

That's funny, I had others ask me what was that remark about later on! I just told them it was your wicked sense of humour! LOL

Your point holds no merit... if yopu aren't willing to do something why make the suggestion that others do it... Barry

A suggestion is for something for the entire club to do, not one individual. But I guess it is time to end this back and forth, you will never get it.

sharptail
06-12-2009, 12:01 AM
Yes Jeff that happened but doesn't count<G>. Fred whether there was a conviction, or even charges doesn't stop the fact about what they did. But I agree with you the issue is the way NAFA board handled it ..in that we are in total lock step.
Now then as far as the eagle issue you make it sound as if I thought it was right what happened. that's not the case at all, I do believe Dan has stated it the way it was from his point of view, and I believe he is correct in his interpetation... I do believe NAFA should have handled it better than they did.... and no it doesn't matter to me how it plays out as far as eagles go.... The same way that no one cares about the way importation of raptors are handled because they don't import... do you hear anyone concerned about that... Is NAFA aware of it..sure ...are they you doing anything about it...are you, why not it's your falconry..

Fred you are talking out of both sides of your mouth...( sorry not a put down but it does appear you are taking both sides when it pleases you to make a point) first because it isn't an issue with me, you say it should because it effects my falconry...right?.... then you tell me your club says you can something that you recommend be done, but you don't want to and say that it's the clubs responsibility.... don't you think you should contribute, being that it effects your falconry? Are you paying your club officers a salary to do your work for you? Are they using the same amount of hours in a day as you? Fred maybe I'm missing something here... if it all has to do with your falconry , as you say, don't you think you should be involved.

Barry
I don't see anything of value in this post...Just worthless bull

goshawks00
06-12-2009, 04:53 AM
Thanks jeff that was of great value also.

Dirthawking
06-12-2009, 04:58 AM
You guys need a break! Go check out this thread!

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=5138


toungeout

killjoy
06-12-2009, 07:55 AM
Mike, that is the million dollar question! I don't know the answers, but I can tell you one thing, you don't bail! The sad thing is falconers don't realize that NAFA and the feds hold hands. The feds decide what we can and can't do. We need to have the right people that will do what "we", the members as a majority, want done with falcorny in the U.S. If we let a select few decide for us, the majority isn't deciding what falconry is going to be in the future. My solution is communication! Everything that is going on and goes on needs to be made public. Every falconer should know and should get off their lazy asses and vote based on the facts. It is pitiful the number of members that vote each time there is a vote. We all want the silver lining but can't even take a few minutes to research the facts and then make a decision on what we have learned. What has happened to NAFA happens every day to corporations across the U.S., someone new comes in with ideas and aspirations to make things better, then they get NAFAsized and are told how things are and how they are done and they become just like the people that are already there. It happens in businesses, I have seen it at where I work. It happens in NAFA.

But the matter of Beebe and Webster, well, my opinion is just look at what they have done over the years, how could you not make them honarary members. Sure, they did stuff a long, long time ago that wasn't right. If anyone has done any research, they can find out about that. But my question is were they charged with a crime, were they convicted of a crime? NO, they weren't! To be honest, the laws back then were so unclear, no one could really say what was right or wrong. But the facts are they weren't convicted, so all those falconers that didn't like what they did, to bad. I think the good they have done far out weighs the bad and they should become honarary members. But to have a petition with the right amount of folks signing it be swept under the table, well, that just isn't right. And it can't be allowed to happen again. Name one falconry book that almost every falconer has in their library and/or was told to have and I bet it will be North American Falconry and Hunting Hawks. That in itself, should be enough to become honaray members!


Fred,

is it just the feds and nafa that have this love affair?
i think the THA and the State of Texas have a wonderful relationship. but i think its more of keep your friends close and your enemies closer type thing, i think the THA is hugging the state and checking for weapons.
Texas is actually having older members of THA help adopt the new regs. I email the licensing agent often just to see if she is ok.
So are things that different outside of texas?
or am i blind to something here in texas?

as for breaking laws, big deal. unless it was absolutely hanus crime, you said it great, every falconer on here has at least 1 of there books, so if their that bad everyone send their copy of NAFAH to me so i can corner the market on them and retire now!!

there are falconers who have broken the rules of falconry in NAFA now, so why is it any different for them? a rule is a rule, shouldnt matter what the rule was that was broken.

had AIG give $1.00 bonus instead of $1 million dollar bonus, would it make a difference? it shouldnt, you should be mad if they received a $.10 bonus, it was our tax money no matter what, tax it 90% and get that $.09 back.

NMHighPlains
06-12-2009, 12:44 PM
I headed NAFA's Eagle Committee for over 10 years. I was a major player. We have eagles now. I always thought of myself as a falconer's falconer. I guess some of NAFA's new leadership thinks differently.


I wasn't aware that you'd dropped NAFA membership and you're absolutely right- at least the last time I was semi-involved- you WERE a "major player." For you to drop NAFA is a powerful statement, IMHO.

areal
06-12-2009, 12:55 PM
I had to look at some of the posts on here twice to make sure I hadnt read them wrong.
Committees, the beaurocratic alternative to achieving something!!

Richard F, Hoyer
06-12-2009, 01:01 PM
Below is a message I just posted on the Oregon Falconers Assn. web site which included the link and message (by Mike Dupuy) that appeared at the beginning of this thread. NAFA president Dan Cecchini lives in Bend, Oregon and is an OFA member.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

=============================

"This morning, I received the following link and message from a long time NAFA member from Texas. This same link and message recently appeared on the North American Falconers Exchange forum. OFA members can access the NAFEX site to view the comments made by other falconers.

However, to reach an informed position, it is best to be exposed to both sides of issues. Thus, I hope NAFA president Dan Cecchini will be so kind as to provide a response which could then be transmitted throughout the falconry community."

wyodjm
06-12-2009, 04:53 PM
I quit em. Didn't go out like a lion or screaming, kick'n and hollering, just dropped my membership and forgot about it. I quit WRTC too. I'm tired of fighting battles when the biggest advisary has a hawk on his fist. No siree I'm not fighting falconers!!! I'm certainly not alone either. Does my leaving along with some other long time NAFA members matter? Probably not. It simply isn't important to us anymore.

If you notice I hardly bitch anymore nor do I post on anything confrontational. Been there then asked myself why.

Gone hawk'n instead of just a talk'n.

That's why I've always liked you Brad. You've always been smarter than me. :)

Mitchellbrad
06-12-2009, 06:05 PM
That's why I've always liked you Brad. You've always been smarter than me. :)

I don't think it's a question of being smarter Dan<G> If I'd made a stink they would have pointed towards the door and told me to use it. Provided anyone bothered to notice.

Nah, it simply isn't worth it. I'm more interested in flying my birds than anything else.

Brad

wyodjm
06-12-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't think it's a question of being smarter Dan<G> If I'd made a stink they would have pointed towards the door and told me to use it. Provided anyone bothered to notice.

Nah, it simply isn't worth it. I'm more interested in flying my birds than anything else.

Brad

I agree. I won't fight with falconers anymore either. Or should I say against the ivory towers that some of them dwell in! I never should have. I'm more interested in flying my birds also.

BTW, I just wrote a donation check to the NRA. I'd rather put money into an organization that supports me and what I like to do. Own a gun and hunt! :)

ATB,

Dan

Mitchellbrad
06-12-2009, 06:40 PM
I agree. I won't fight with falconers anymore either. Or should I say against the ivory towers that some of them dwell in! I never should have. I'm more interested in flying my birds also.

BTW, I just wrote a donation check to the NRA. I'd rather put money into an organization that supports me and what I like to do. Own a gun and hunt! :)

ATB,

Dan

I'm a NRA member too!!!

Brad

sharptail
06-12-2009, 07:31 PM
I agree. I won't fight with falconers anymore either. Or should I say against the ivory towers that some of them dwell in! I never should have. I'm more interested in flying my birds also.

BTW, I just wrote a donation check to the NRA. I'd rather put money into an organization that supports me and what I like to do. Own a gun and hunt! :)

ATB,

Dan
Hi Dan,
So when your current falconry Goldies are gone, will that be the end of your golden eagle falconry? Will you let it slip under, no more fight?

I recently sent my check to Gun Owners Of America, they say they are 'no compromise', something I fear from the NRA, guess we will see.

wyodjm
06-12-2009, 08:11 PM
Hi Dan,
So when your current falconry Goldies are gone, will that be the end of your golden eagle falconry? Will you let it slip under, no more fight?

I recently sent my check to Gun Owners Of America, they say they are 'no compromise', something I fear from the NRA, guess we will see.

That's the nice thing about America. You may send money to whatever organization you wish. Your money, your choice.

I don't know you. With all due respect, please don't be too concerned about me having access to golden eagles for falconry. I'm not worried. Besides, I can always fly a passage goshawk on rabbits and ducks. :)

BTW, I've always thought the use of the term goldie, was dumb. :)

Cheers,

DM

sharptail
06-12-2009, 09:02 PM
That's the nice thing about America. You may send money to whatever organization you wish. Your money, your choice.

I don't know you. With all due respect, please don't be too concerned about me having access to golden eagles for falconry. I'm not worried. Besides, I can always fly a passage goshawk on rabbits and ducks. :)

BTW, I've always thought the use of the term goldie, was dumb. :)

Cheers,

DM

Odd, we have spoken on a couple of occasions!

wyodjm
06-12-2009, 10:22 PM
Odd, we have spoken on a couple of occasions!

Ummm, sorry.

DM

Lowachi
06-13-2009, 01:04 AM
I don't think it's a question of being smarter Dan<G> If I'd made a stink they would have pointed towards the door and told me to use it. Provided anyone bothered to notice.

Nah, it simply isn't worth it. I'm more interested in flying my birds than anything else.

Brad
Well. I've been reading this thread...all of it....can't say I'm not ready to roll over and just go fly my birds and say the hell with it just yet. But I always preached " you should join the 'insert state club' and support NAFA. Now, I have 2 sons in this. One is 18, a first year apprentice( with 8 years hands on), the other is 14, with close to 6. What example am I setting by quitting?
I went to see an old friend/apprentice and his gyr & finnish gos projects last weekend. The conversation eventually hit politics, and aside from being stunned by my son's comments & insites, I was more amazed that I had no answers to his quandries. The hour drive home didn't help answer his questions eitherfrus. "how do we get directors in place that serve those that elected them, and vote accordingly, and not to their personal interests and benefit ?" "how can this club(NAFA) continue if 500 members quit the first of the year in protest?"..."Who's going to be left for me to learn from when you're gone, if all the ol' timers/experienced people take their ball and go home ?" What would you all have said? I understand the grievances,transgretions, the offenses taken, and the general 'talking to the wall' feeling-like I said, I've been close. I just don't see how to fix it from the outside, granted I'm pressuming it's wanted to be fixed. Not sure I can make much of a difference, but for awhile, I'll stick it out and try. And for those that are questioning my sanity, yes I hear voices... I just don't answer back-out loud;).
This is a lot of typing with a bird on the fist and late with an hour of sign painting left to do.

everetkhorton
06-13-2009, 07:44 AM
I don't think it's a question of being smarter Dan<G> If I'd made a stink they would have pointed towards the door and told me to use it. Provided anyone bothered to notice.

Nah, it simply isn't worth it. I'm more interested in flying my birds than anything else.

Brad

Brad:
I guess the importanted thing is we can fly our birds. There is not a club on this earth where everyone get to vote on every single issue, None.
I think the people that do not know what Webster did should contact the Wy. court and fine out for themselves. It was a long time ago, but it may have effected what is going on today. JMO.

outhawkn
06-13-2009, 08:41 AM
How many of you have gotten a speeding ticket? Then paid your fine and moved on, or received a DUI. You broke the law and paid for it. But you are still allowed to own and drive a car.Its the same thing. I think his contribution outways the offense. That being said I think it should be up to the members to vote on it and thats a real shame that we will never be allowed to because of the power struggle within NAFA. Members have been tryin for years to vote out the troublesome members but old loyalties run deep. I would like to have voted in this last elction but never received a ballot. (again). I think it would be better to let NAFA die and start a new national club.The USFWS does not hold NAFA in as high a regard as NAFA would like to think. JMO

Mitchellbrad
06-13-2009, 09:29 AM
Brad:
I guess the importanted thing is we can fly our birds. There is not a club on this earth where everyone get to vote on every single issue, None.
I think the people that do not know what Webster did should contact the Wy. court and fine out for themselves. It was a long time ago, but it may have effected what is going on today. JMO.

Ev,

I know exactly what Webster did! That's not important because he paid for his stupidity. What's important is people remember the good Frank and Hal did. Too much hate and I can assure you it's hate, soul burning hate against those two. What Hal did has no bearing on what is going on today on the federal level. What's going on with falconers is altogether a different thing, none will forget their real and imagined hate against those two. No Thank You, I'll have no part of an organization with a level of hate against people ingrained so deeply it's rotting the very center of it's core

wyodjm
06-13-2009, 09:56 AM
Ev,

I know exactly what Webster did! That's not important because he paid for his stupidity. What's important is people remember the good Frank and Hal did. Too much hate and I can assure you it's hate, soul burning hate against those two. What Hal did has no bearing on what is going on today on the federal level. What's going on with falconers is altogether a different thing, none will forget their real and imagined hate against those two. No Thank You, I'll have no part of an organization with a level of hate against people ingrained so deeply it's rotting the very center of it's core

I agree Brad. Well written.

ATB,

Dan

dirtwinger
06-13-2009, 11:29 AM
Interesting thread with some strong opinions and some good examples of what I think of as the falconer stereotype. This isnt intended as a slight to anyone as I am as guilty of this as the majority of falconers. My observation is this you give two falconers a piece of rope and they will pull in opposite directions, we are just a independant ornery bunch it's inbuilt into most falconers natures.
I think that falconry has come of age in the USA and now there is a desire to maintain the status quo and dont rock the boat. The reality is real boats rock and if it doesn't get a good shakeup once in while it becomes stagnant. Beurocratic types hate turmoil and fight it tooth and nail even if the end result will make things better.
What Nafa really needs to serve American falconers are folks who make things happen, every year they should be polling members asking what they want, what they fear will affect thier falconry and going after it. But that means members have to be involved or the placators and paper shufflers rise to the top. Sure we have gained a lot and it is scary to risk that but you have to stick your neck out and take a risk every once in while.

All the best

sharptail
06-13-2009, 02:14 PM
How many of you have gotten a speeding ticket? Then paid your fine and moved on, or received a DUI. You broke the law and paid for it. But you are still allowed to own and drive a car.Its the same thing. I think his contribution outways the offense. That being said I think it should be up to the members to vote on it and thats a real shame that we will never be allowed to because of the power struggle within NAFA. Members have been tryin for years to vote out the troublesome members but old loyalties run deep. I would like to have voted in this last elction but never received a ballot. (again). I think it would be better to let NAFA die and start a new national club.The USFWS does not hold NAFA in as high a regard as NAFA would like to think. JMO

Unfortunately, I think NAFA serves the USFWS as a rubber stamp of approval while not even being concerned about the basic RIGHTS, hard won and long established in this country. It does not serve what the majority of falconers would like to see or deserve, which is the maximum freedom within the constraints that the resource will safely allow. The MBTA needs to be revisited on a conflict of (basic) laws basis, along with the validity of the USFWS' mission statement. The 'people' in this country were ment to rule, not the government, and NAFA has become the govn't tool to subvert this.

Beebe and Webster are what they are and as Brad said, we remember the good, generally, with a few that hold old festering grudges. As the board has pointed out, they have honored these 2 with an award. I have no doubt that there plaques will honor them on the "Wall of Rememberance" at the Archives. To me, Beebe and Webster are whom they are and are not the issue, but an example of what the issue is, as is the Golden Eagle(just for you Dan, allmost put goldie.) issue.

wyodjm
06-13-2009, 02:33 PM
Unfortunately, I think NAFA serves the USFWS as a rubber stamp of approval while not even being concerned about the basic RIGHTS, hard won and long established in this country. It does not serve what the majority of falconers would like to see or deserve, which is the maximum freedom within the constraints that the resource will safely allow. The MBTA needs to be revisited on a conflict of (basic) laws basis, along with the validity of the USFWS' mission statement. The 'people' in this country were ment to rule, not the government, and NAFA has become the govn't tool to subvert this.

Beebe and Webster are what they are and as Brad said, we remember the good, generally, with a few that hold old festering grudges. As the board has pointed out, they have honored these 2 with an award. I have no doubt that there plaques will honor them on the "Wall of Rememberance" at the Archives. To me, Beebe and Webster are whom they are and are not the issue, but an example of what the issue is, as is the Golden Eagle(just for you Dan, allmost put goldie.) issue.

Well put. I don't have any answers. I'm burned out. But again, well put. I agree with what you wrote.

ATB,

Mitchellbrad
06-13-2009, 04:25 PM
Well put. I don't have any answers. I'm burned out. But again, well put. I agree with what you wrote.

ATB,

I too am burned out. What's past is past. If one dwells on the mistakes of past there will be no future. One has to be a student of history so the same mistakes aren't made a second or third time but it does no one any good to live in the past.

Brad

sharptail
06-13-2009, 04:46 PM
I too am burned out. What's past is past. If one dwells on the mistakes of past there will be no future. One has to be a student of history so the same mistakes aren't made a second or third time but it does no one any good to live in the past.

Brad

Forgive me but, one foot in the grave is it? How much effort could it be to sign up and cast a few votes? I am not asking you to take on the board with knife and tooth.

wyodjm
06-13-2009, 06:20 PM
Forgive me but, one foot in the grave is it? How much effort could it be to sign up and cast a few votes? I am not asking you to take on the board with knife and tooth.

Cheers Jeff, :)

Dan

FredFogg
06-18-2009, 11:57 PM
I too am burned out. What's past is past. If one dwells on the mistakes of past there will be no future. One has to be a student of history so the same mistakes aren't made a second or third time but it does no one any good to live in the past.

Brad

I am all about putting the past in the past, but when just recently (the past), a petition (and this could be any petition that met the required number to be voted on) was slid under the table, then you have to bring the past up and get it corrected so it doesn't happen in the future. And that basically, is what this entire thread is about! The members of NAFA have to stand up and stop this kind of stuff. I personally think that all involved that allowed this to happen should be kicked off the board of NAFA. They broke the bylaws and shouldn't be allowed to serve. But the problem is not enough falconers will take a stand, they just want to do their falconry (me included). So the problem will probably never be fixed! Just my opinion! confusedd and crazyy

wyodjm
06-19-2009, 02:44 AM
I am all about putting the past in the past, but when just recently (the past), a petition (and this could be any petition that met the required number to be voted on) was slid under the table, then you have to bring the past up and get it corrected so it doesn't happen in the future. And that basically, is what this entire thread is about! The members of NAFA have to stand up and stop this kind of stuff. I personally think that all involved that allowed this to happen should be kicked off the board of NAFA. They broke the bylaws and shouldn't be allowed to serve. But the problem is not enough falconers will take a stand, they just want to do their falconry (me included). So the problem will probably never be fixed! Just my opinion! confusedd and crazyy

It's sad what NAFA has become. There comes a time, however, when all this negativity has to end and you have to move on. We all have lives and families. We practice falconry as individuals. It's about flying our birds. At the end of the day, it's just you and your bird. NAFA is a nonevent.

ATB,

FredFogg
06-19-2009, 04:18 AM
It's sad what NAFA has become. There comes a time, however, when all this negativity has to end and you have to move on. We all have lives and families. We practice falconry as individuals. It's about flying our birds. At the end of the day, it's just you and your bird. NAFA is a nonevent.

ATB,

I totally agree it is all about flying our birds, I would love to just do that. But to say NAFA is a nonevent, well, when they persuade the Feds to change the regs to something that won't allow you to fly your eagles or some other stupid regulation, then it is no longer a nonevent. And yeah, sure, you can still fly them, we all can fly any bird we want, but do we really want to be looking over our shoulder the entire time we are flying? I would like to keep it legal and the only way to do that is to make sure NAFA does what the majority wants. That isn't happening now. And for anyone to think they don't have influence with the Feds, well, they are living in a dream world.

Migisi
06-19-2009, 09:52 AM
...But the problem is not enough falconers will take a stand...

A quote comes to mind...

"Stand with anybody that stands right, stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong."
--- Abraham Lincoln

Many have parted with NAFA.

For me personally, rather than brood over what I can't change: "For peace of mind, resign as general manager of the universe."
--- Larry Eisenberg

wyodjm
06-19-2009, 10:48 AM
I totally agree it is all about flying our birds, I would love to just do that. But to say NAFA is a nonevent, well, when they persuade the Feds to change the regs to something that won't allow you to fly your eagles or some other stupid regulation, then it is no longer a nonevent. And yeah, sure, you can still fly them, we all can fly any bird we want, but do we really want to be looking over our shoulder the entire time we are flying? I would like to keep it legal and the only way to do that is to make sure NAFA does what the majority wants. That isn't happening now. And for anyone to think they don't have influence with the Feds, well, they are living in a dream world.

This isn't going anywhere. NAFA doesn't have as much pull with the feds as many people are saying. That's propaganda and it's fear mongering.

I was a member of NAFA for over 30 years. I also worked with the feds and several states regarding eagles for over 20 years on NAFA's and Wyoming's behalf. I'm saying this as politely as I can. NAFA doesn't have that much pull with the Feds. Certain individuals within NAFA may have certain working relationships with certain feds, but that's about the extent of it. But, so do I. I also have a working relationship my state Game and Fish Dept. That doesn't mean anything.

Here's the bottom line. Down the road, if NAFA continues on its current path of inner sanctum, ivory tower politics, it will be just happy when the membership dwindles down to perhaps under a thousand of dues paying, no questions asked, no confrontation members. NAFA doesn't represent the majority of licensed falconers. It probably doesn't want to because it would have to be more accountable.

The majority of licensed falconers in the U.S. currently don't belong to NAFA. Say what you will, but you can't argue with the math. NAFA isn't a falconers' union or a religious cult. It's just a club. In my opinion, it has very little credibility. If NAFA ever changes, I'll join again. So would 1,000+ other people.

I'm not trying to argue with people. I'm just trying to provide solid information. There's so much bad information out there. NAFA just is what it is.

FredFogg
06-19-2009, 11:13 AM
Dan, if you and that 1,000 other falconers would join NAFA, maybe we could make that change. It will never happen with the current membership!

Richard F, Hoyer
06-19-2009, 11:31 AM
On the Oregon Falconer's Assn. web site, I asked NAFA president Dan Cecchini to respond to the information that appeared in the initial post by Fred that began this tread. Dan Cecchini has declined to respond.

The failure of the NAFA leadership to be accountable is disturbing. This is the second time NAFA leadership has refused to explain their actions. Last year during the badly botched 'Private Property' issue, a majority of the NAFA board and Dan Cecchini failed to respond or explain.

As for the current controversy with the 'petition' issue, the NAFA leadership portrayed the petition process as badly flawed. The 'fix' they proposed was not to just double the number of required signatures but to increase the number FIVE FOLD. The realities of such a drastic change has been to effectively kill the petition process thereby removing any rational chance for members to be heard through that process.

It can be noted that such an outcome was not mentioned by Dan in his communications to the NAFA membership. So two question come to mind. Was the board members that approved the ballot measure and Dan Cecchini consciously aware they were scuttling the petition process? Or is the NAFA leadership so inept that they failed to consider the potential consequences?

The link in Fred's post contains a chronology of events by attorney Mathew Gould. If you click on Mr. Gould's letter of 11/21/08, his last paragraph provides a reasoned analysis of the petition situation. With Dan Cecchini refusing to respond, one is left with the understanding that 1), the portrayal of events and conclusions reached by Mr. Gould are reasonable and accurate and 2), by not responding, Dan Cecchini is essentially conceding that fact.

Last year, the same NAFA leadership badly botched the handling of the 'Private Property' (of falconry birds) issue and now is following-up with a similar encore with this 'petition issue. So once again, I have concluded that the conduct of the current NAFA leadership is unsatisfactory and unacceptable.

Around the end of 2007 or early 2008, on this forum I urge all falconers to consider joining NAFA as representation is important and there is strength in numbers. Sadly, in the aftermath of what transpired last year and now this year, in good conscious I can no longer advocate joining NAFA. And in fact, I would advise just the opposite or at least wait until a more responsive and responsible leadership emerges. Even though I began my NAFA membership in 1962, with the current sad state of affairs, I am inclined to just let my membership lapse next year.

Finally, I am aware that I could be all wet in the above considerations and viewpoint. But before I offer an apology, in rational terms it needs to be pointed out just where I have made my mistakes.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

Mitchellbrad
06-19-2009, 11:50 AM
Sadly, in the aftermath of what transpired last year and now this year, in good conscious I can no longer advocate joining NAFA. And in fact, I would advise just the opposite or at least wait until a more responsive and responsible leadership emerges. Even though I began my NAFA membership in 1962, with the current sad state of affairs, I am inclined to just let my membership lapse next year.
Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

I think your in good company, a lot of us did that.

Recently a friend asked me why I dropped out. After I told him some of the same things you mentioned he replied with, "Don't you want to keep an eye on the enemy?" That floored me although I now consider it not too far out of line.

Brad

wyodjm
06-19-2009, 11:55 AM
On the Oregon Falconer's Assn. web site, I asked NAFA president Dan Cecchini to respond to the information that appeared in the initial post by Fred that began this tread. Dan Cecchini has declined to respond.

The failure of the NAFA leadership to be accountable is disturbing. This is the second time NAFA leadership has refused to explain their actions. Last year during the badly botched 'Private Property' issue, a majority of the NAFA board and Dan Cecchini failed to respond or explain.

As for the current controversy with the 'petition' issue, the NAFA leadership portrayed the petition process as badly flawed. The 'fix' they proposed was not to just double the number of required signatures but to increase the number FIVE FOLD. The realities of such a drastic change has been to effectively kill the petition process thereby removing any rational chance for members to be heard through that process.

It can be noted that such an outcome was not mentioned by Dan in his communications to the NAFA membership. So two question come to mind. Was the board members that approved the ballot measure and Dan Cecchini consciously aware they were scuttling the petition process? Or is the NAFA leadership so inept that they failed to consider the potential consequences?

The link in Fred's post contains a chronology of events by attorney Mathew Gould. If you click on Mr. Gould's letter of 11/21/08, his last paragraph provides a reasoned analysis of the petition situation. With Dan Cecchini refusing to respond, one is left with the understanding that 1), the portrayal of events and conclusions reached by Mr. Gould are reasonable and accurate and 2), by not responding, Dan Cecchini is essentially conceding that fact.

Last year, the same NAFA leadership badly botched the handling of the 'Private Property' (of falconry birds) issue and now is following-up with a similar encore with this 'petition issue. So once again, I have concluded that the conduct of the current NAFA leadership is unsatisfactory and unacceptable.

Around the end of 2007 or early 2008, on this forum I urge all falconers to consider joining NAFA as representation is important and there is strength in numbers. Sadly, in the aftermath of what transpired last year and now this year, in good conscious I can no longer advocate joining NAFA. And in fact, I would advise just the opposite or at least wait until a more responsive and responsible leadership emerges. Even though I began my NAFA membership in 1962, with the current sad state of affairs, I am inclined to just let my membership lapse next year.

Finally, I am aware that I could be all wet in the above considerations and viewpoint. But before I offer an apology, in rational terms it needs to be pointed out just where I have made my mistakes.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

Powerful. And from a charter member of NAFA. You have my respect.

My very best to you,

Dan McCarron

Lowachi
06-19-2009, 01:19 PM
I think your in good company, a lot of us did that.

Recently a friend asked me why I dropped out. After I told him some of the same things you mentioned he replied with, "Don't you want to keep an eye on the enemy?" That floored me although I now consider it not too far out of line.

Brad
"Keep your friends close....and your enemies closer."

Mitchellbrad
06-19-2009, 01:50 PM
"Keep your friends close....and your enemies closer."

Yep, there was a lot of wisdom in Sun-tzu.