Screaming imprint support group

[Ted Bell]

Well, Francisco, my Gyr/Merlin has become quite the screamer (he's perched on my desk as I write this, and I'm having to wear ear plugs). I realize it is my fault, and almost certainly due to some thing or things that I have done, but I'm not sure exactly what. My guess is I reduced his weight too quickly - I went to a lot of effort to try and make sure I didn't do that, but maybe his definition of "too quick" is different than mine. (He also tries to carry/drag his kills away from me and mantles horribly, but only if I'm moving around if he is on a carcass.) Of course, dealing with these behaviors is frustrating and aggravating, but I was reading Bryant's thread about his gos and his posts about him also having to deal with some screaming issues with his eyas and I felt a little better, just at least knowing that I'm not the only one having to deal with these little setbacks. So, I figured I'd see who else out there is having (or had) similar problems, and also see what advice might be out there for correcting these issues. Bringing Francisco's weight back up doesn't change it, and he screams just as bad after he finishes a meal as before he starts. It's kind of funny - he's sitting next to me on his perch right now all relaxed and fluffed out, with one foot pulled up, screaming his head off. crazyy His flying and killing is steadily improving- just baggies at this point since all the wild stuff seems to have suddenly disappeared - and no complaints in that area. it's just that he's a screaming, possessive imprint. (Is this what it's going to be like when my girls grow up to be teenagers?)

So, who else is having or had some screaming issues? Any recovery stories or advice?

Thanks,
Ted

[Hawkmom]

Most of the time is subsides. Give you bird something to watch, like outdoors next to a window. The pet dog, cat, etc. That will help get the focus away from your and reduce the screaming. Something about the merlin's voice really makes it ear piercing, more so than other raptors.

[Jack Mangum]

This habitual screaming is not really because of dropping weight too fast. There is no evidence to support this and most everyone seems to think it is due to that. Actually, taking too long will generate some screaming from a young bird. They stand hungry for way too long in dropping this weight slowly and it will make them scream. If you have to drop weight, do it fast and get them back to eating well again before they develop this habit.
Another factor is that everyone tells you that you need to disassociate yourself with their food. That is silly. You can not hide it. They do get to where they resent your presents when they eat, simply because you always remove yourself from the scene when food is introduced. Also letting the little bird get hungry and making it kill before it is flying will traumatize it. Really. And handling it will also cause anxiety enough to make them scream at you. In your case, it is still way too fat. Fat hawks will scream at you and carry. They will develop into ritualistic screamers eventually and there is no cure for this. Only the lose of hearing can help you. There are usually several of these factors working against you at one time. I have heard of many ways to cure this, but I am here to tell you that they simply do not work,but there is one method that seems to work though, but most people are terrified to try it. The fear of killing the birds will prevent them from using the best tool they have. And that is to drop them so low that they will not scream when you give them food. Then feed them on the fist and get right down into their face as they do so. They usually dig in and don't have time for screaming at this point. This might take a while to achieve, but hunger and desperation can alter any habitual behavior. Before anyone starts to scream at me, I would not suggest anything that I have not done or used myself with at least some success.

Jack

[Bryant Tarr]

ALC?HOL

Sometimes, "Alcohol" IS the answer. ;)

Count me in the support group. Show me the 12 steps! Jack says "tighten the screws" he could be right. He's a salty old dog, and seems pretty sure of himself. People like that are usually idiots, or right...and I've seen Jack be right more than a few times! Might just try it myself. It sure ain't gonna make anything louder! frus)

[Ted Bell]

ALC?HOL

Sometimes, "Alcohol" IS the answer. ;)

Count me in the support group. Show me the 12 steps! Jack says "tighten the screws" he could be right. He's a salty old dog, and seems pretty sure of himself. People like that are usually idiots, or right...and I've seen Jack be right more than a few times! Might just try it myself. It sure ain't gonna make anything louder! frus)

Here, here! I'm with you Bryant- there is a certain amount of logic to it. Just let me know if my screaming little falcon is keeping you awake up there. :D

[Ken S.]

I keep a close eye on a local cooper's hawk nest because it's right next to my brother's house. I get to spend a pretty good amount of time seeing these wild hawks grow up. They also get very very noisy every year as they start branching and flying around. This lasts for at least a few weeks in the wild and maybe longer. They spend a lot of time flying around and screaming, etc. So some of this is a natural occurrence.

I know that it is tempting to blame yourself when you're reading books or stories on the Internet about perfect imprints, and to imagine that other people are raising 100% silent imprints using some secret methods, or a higher level of skill, or whatever. But I would say that most (if not all) imprints will go through a noisy period, and a lot of factors can contribute to how long that period is. Once they reach this stage, I don't think there is much you can do other than help them mature and transition into hunting as nature would do. A wise Falconer once told me, "It takes a hard heart to be a good Falconer." This is true in so many ways.

Hope this helps...

[GyrXPeals]

Jack, I will agree that your methods seem to work for you, but to say all other methods are nonsense is the essence of nonsense.
I've certainly seen some badly mis-imprinted falcons over the past 40 years, but I've also seen it done right just as often, using the methods you say are nonsense, consistent repeatable results time after time after time.
Imprinting is not rocket science, especially feeding, lack of food association doesn't mean you're not present when the bird is feeding it simply means you take the bird to the food not the food to the bird. Feeding is the easy part, the hard part is having the time to do the job properly. Loneliness and boredom ruin more imprints than anything I can think of, there are exceptions of course, but in general that's the major cause.
Just my opinion for what it's worth.
Best Regards,
Jeff

[Bryant Tarr]

Good points as well Jeff. And thanks for the input Ken!

[Hawkmom]

My opinion of screaming is that it is a phase in the eyass development. They are quite social at that point and needs lots of attention. Take the bird EVERYWHERE. Let the see EVERYTHING around you. Let others oooo and ahhh at the cute little fuzzy, down everywhere poop producing thing. Do the food dis-association methods. Put the bird in the basket/box with the food already there. But, part of the screaming is the eyass saying 'I'm here, I want attention!!! or where are you? Acknowledge the bird with a vocal cue, name or whatever. I have done this with several birds and find that the 'screaming' is a part of their communication with the parent bird. They do subside. I tell them verbally that I'm here, everything is safe and secure around them. NO they do not understand me, but read my body language. I give a cue when they are quiet especially important when hunting that duck pond. The falcon DOES get it. I say something like 'shoo shoo' when I want them quiet for slip on game. I like a little bit of 'talk' and tolerate a lot more noise than other falconers, but I feel that being vocal is just part of being a bird. They are usually telling me something and I should pay attention and respond to anyhow.

[RyanVZ]

Jack, I will agree that your methods seem to work for you, but to say all other methods are nonsense is the essence of nonsense.
I've certainly seen some badly mis-imprinted falcons over the past 40 years, but I've also seen it done right just as often, using the methods you say are nonsense, consistent repeatable results time after time after time.
Imprinting is not rocket science, especially feeding, lack of food association doesn't mean you're not present when the bird is feeding it simply means you take the bird to the food not the food to the bird. Feeding is the easy part, the hard part is having the time to do the job properly. Loneliness and boredom ruin more imprints than anything I can think of, there are exceptions of course, but in general that's the major cause.
Just my opinion for what it's worth.
Best Regards,
Jeff

I'm gonna have to agree with Jeff on this one. Why would anyone want to starve an imprint. That's why I want an imprint, at least in falcons, so I can fly them successfully at higher weights. My last imprint hybrid screamed some early on, but learned very quickly that food comes from catching things and very rarely made any noise in the field, and only when I would first pick him up in the morning he would scream for a minute or two but even that turned to chupping. It was almost completely gone in his second season, but always tolerable. Baby falcons in the wild scream their bloody heads off and it doesnt stop until the parents have enough of it and they stoop them until they leave their territory. We obviously cannot do that to our birds so some noise is something that you have to deal with in imprinted falcons. I cannot speak to accipters because I have little experience with them. It will get better the more often your bird kills stuff and with time. Ted, it sounds to me like your bird is just being a baby like it is suppose to be as Ken said. The only advice I'd have is to trade your bird off prey to a heavy lure, that he cant drag and in my experience they settle down a lot quicker and are somewhat less possessive, then jump the bird off the lure to the glove when they are done instead of picking them up. That way the bird chooses to come to you and you are not getting in his space while eating.

[moffett]

not a lot of experience only had 4 imprints all tiercel prairies , only 1 screamed , all handled the same , the bird that screamed was a complete maniac, flew at my face , wouldnt go up, just hung around and was a pain , didnt try starvation, all other birds were good, i figured it was just a psyco. but i feel your pain , nothing worse than a screamer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rocgwp]

With my saker/merlin I have noticed he gets vocal when he hasn't been in the presence of people for a while. I keep him perched in my office all day and he is quiet. At night I put him in the mew. He is vocal when I show up to get him. I take him to my office and he quiets down. I then go fly him.

As he figures things out, I expect him to get quieter.

You might try keeping him with you all day if you can...

[tumble]

Imprinting is not rocket science, especially feeding, lack of food association doesn't mean you're not present when the bird is feeding it simply means you take the bird to the food not the food to the bird. Feeding is the easy part, the hard part is having the time to do the job properly.
Jeff

Thank you Jeff, saved me some typing. Perfectly said in my opinion.

[Raptorick]

Screaming support group. LOL. Even though I understand your situation is not funny. This thread will be active for awhile.

An imprinted screaming falcon can really get to your nerves.

My coopers was screaming for awhile and now has pretty much stopped. She never screams in the field. Just a baby phase I guess. I think all young birds go through some noise and hopefully just a baby phase and with lots of flying/hunting should slowly go away?

I find my accipiters are quiet in their 2nd year. Never imprinted a falcon though?

[Ted Bell]

I really appreciate everyone's opinion. I think there is a lot of merit to the thought that to some extent this is just another step in their development. I am trying to make sure he continues to get a lot of exposure to things. From the day I got him I used to take him to work with me every day, but had to stop when he developed the screaming- you could hear him throughout half the building. So now when I am at work he's outside in the mews, which is a combined mews/weathering area setup where he can see everything going on around him. The screaming did seem to start roughly around the same time that he became hard-penned.

Ryan- thanks for the advice about trading off to a heavier lure, and then letting him jump to my fist. I have been doing the second part, about jumping to the fist, but hadn't thought about a drag-proof lure. It's a good thought - that way I'm not the one having to hold it in place.

Thanks,
Ted

[Bryant Tarr]

I appreciate everybody's input too.

I think I'm in serious danger of making the problem worse through isolating the bird and letting it get bored. The problem compounds itself in my case as my shift to day work prevented me from continuing to be with the bird all day most days as I was earlier on (for about the first 60 days)

Then, after screaming started in earnest there was pressure to isolate the bird because of the noise...keep her hooded, or in a darkened mew. That just leads to boredom and an increased food association as the only time she sees people is feeding time and a few hours after. Can be a viscous cycle!

[GyrXPeals]

I appreciate everybody's input too.

I think I'm in serious danger of making the problem worse through isolating the bird and letting it get bored. The problem compounds itself in my case as my shift to day work prevented me from continuing to be with the bird all day most days as I was earlier on (for about the first 60 days)

Then, after screaming started in earnest there was pressure to isolate the bird because of the noise...keep her hooded, or in a darkened mew. That just leads to boredom and an increased food association as the only time she sees people is feeding time and a few hours after. Can be a viscous cycle!

Bryant that is some good insight into the most common cause of screaming, work schedules!!LOL
The falconer receives their eyass and schedule a two week vacation to spend all their time with the new little fuzzbucket. When they return to work they can leave food laying around for the bird to find during the day so the food association part is taken care of. Leaving the radio or tv on all day only goes so far. The thing that is missing is simply human contact. We're trying to make social imprints, that becomes very hard to do without social contact. So much of the time the birds are so starved for attention after your work day they vent their frustration, usually by screaming, mantling, dragging, carrying etc.
Another common scenario is the falconer assumes the imprinting process ends as soon as the bird is penned, most of the time it's only just begun at that point and care needs to be taken through the first season, especially at feeding time.
Auto feeders can really help. If you're not hunting on a particular day, feed them with an auto feeder. You're no where near when the food drops, but as soon as it does you are free to make in and help with the "kill", peel back the skin and pull off choice tidbits, the social part of feeding. At times they can help reclaim a food screamer if you catch it fairly early on. It doesn't always work, nothing does, but you might be surprised just how often something that simple does work.
Best Regards,
Jeff

[rkumetz]

My per x merlin was totally quite. She rarely screamed or talked. The Per x prairie that I am flying now was totally the opposite. Initially he was quite and then he started screaming whenever he could see me. I was careful to avoid a food association and he went everywhere with me. He spent the first 8 weeks after I got him going to a kids summer camp twice a week and being petted, pawed, and otherwise attended to by 200 kids. As a result he is impervious to just about anything. The dogs lick his head and he is ok with that. You can cast him up and 30 seconds after you let him go he shakes it off and everything is good. The screaming was horrible all through last (his first) season. Until he was airborne he would yell at me. Nobody else, just me. If I brought him in the house I had to stay out of the room before my wife got up in the morning or life could get difficult rapidly. This all seems to have changed after he started molting. He has quited down substantially. He will greet me with a scream for a bit but he will quite down. I can now sit him in front of the tube and watch televison with only a rare conversational outburst from him. Now he also bows and chups at me so I am assuming that the screaming was simply a maturity issue. Kind of like 5th grade boys punching girls in the arm because they like them.

I think that unless you have set up a food association you are probably dealing with the same thing. Getting the bird out and flying will also get its mind off you.

[rkumetz]

BTW If you think that a screaming, mantling imprint is going to prepare you
for dealing with teenage daughters you should either lay off the booze or lay in a really big supply of it. Teenage girls are more like a badly imprinted golden eagle that is an aggressive face grabber. They will lull you into complacency by being all pretty and cute one minute and then rip your head off the next. Don't you remember that from when you WERE a teenager?

:D

[Mitchellbrad]

Auto feeders can really help. If you're not hunting on a particular day, feed them with an auto feeder.
Jeff

Jeff,

I use drier vents as food chutes for my breeders. Do I have a problem? The two falcons I have left will begin to chup at the feeder when I enter the barn especially during the winter. If I were to walk into the chambers they wouldn't be happy but they sure like their drier vents<G>

Brad

[Lowachi]

Jeff,

I use drier vents as food chutes for my breeders. Do I have a problem? The two falcons I have left will begin to chup at the feeder when I enter the barn especially during the winter. If I were to walk into the chambers they wouldn't be happy but they sure like their drier vents<G>

Brad

Yeah, Harvey was at his this morning waiting:D

[SOF]

Have you tried clicker training?

Here is the idea:

Get a 'noise maker' like a whistle, or goto your pet store and buy a 'clicker'

Click in between breaths(when he is quite) and treat with a small piece of game - as small as you can treat so he is getting rewarded- just not big so it takes him a long time to eat it.

click and only treat the silence. It's ok if you mess up at th begining, but try really hard to focus, click and treat when he is silent. Do this for 5 min session.

wait 30mins.

another 5 mins session, repeat the clicking and treating his silence.

wait 1 hour

another 5 mins session.

enough for that day.

next day, repeat the following days training.

you should see improvement rather quickly, within a day or so and silence witthin the week.

Just remember to only feed him when he is silent!

g luck,

[redtailsrule]

Have you read The Flying of Falcons? Ed explains what the behaviors you are seeing mean. Screaming is a location ploy as you are its sibling or parent. Screaming and carrying are an invitation to be chased by the siblings. When the hungriest sibling has robbed the food it gives a posture to tell the others it isn't playing around and I'm going to eat this. Its all about play untill the hungriest bird has it. The story of his imprint prairie that he turned around from a screaming behavioral mess into a silent and aggressive predator with a passage birds mentality was very interesting. He cut off social interactions with the bird and put her on the "do or die" schedule with a pigeon on a line that if she didn't kill she was put away for another day. I don't know if you could be that drastic with a small bird but the point was directing the birds attention to the only task it needs to perform to live and that's to kill. When she was hungry enough the social aspects went away. The low weights where short lived and the weight increased back to a very healthy level. I'm not an expert but the way Ed explained it made a lot of sense to me. Good luck, one of these days I might try an imprint and I hope I can make it a silent bird.

[Dakota]

Ted, Thank God I have not really had this problem, but I do remember a guy in Colorado with a falcon that screamed and it was bad. He hacked this falcon and then trapped it back. It never screamed again. Like getting a second chance. He attributed the screaming to hand feeding and dropping the weight to fast so when he took it up he kept it fat for a long time. Good luck and thanks for sharing your problem!!

[Mike O]

My opinion of screaming is that it is a phase in the eyass development. They are quite social at that point and needs lots of attention. (clip) I like a little bit of 'talk' and tolerate a lot more noise than other falconers, but I feel that being vocal is just part of being a bird. They are usually telling me something and I should pay attention and respond to anyhow.


I spent several hours last year watching the behavior of 41 day old Sharpie branchers at their wild nest. They were constantly calling to each other, to their parents, to a passing Red Tail, to me. A lot of it seemed to be a way for the birds to keep track of each other and establish that everybody was okay. When I thought of it -- making noise when you found youself alone made sense as a great way to keep a group of young birds together in woods too thick to see 50 feet, and keeping together until you can hunt on your own is the only way of being sure you get fed.

I took a little video of two of the birds calling. You can't see them -- but you can sure tell they are there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hinRZsV27aU

[Ted Bell]

Have you read The Flying of Falcons? Ed explains what the behaviors you are seeing mean. Screaming is a location ploy as you are its sibling or parent. Screaming and carrying are an invitation to be chased by the siblings. When the hungriest sibling has robbed the food it gives a posture to tell the others it isn't playing around and I'm going to eat this. Its all about play untill the hungriest bird has it. The story of his imprint prairie that he turned around from a screaming behavioral mess into a silent and aggressive predator with a passage birds mentality was very interesting. He cut off social interactions with the bird and put her on the "do or die" schedule with a pigeon on a line that if she didn't kill she was put away for another day. I don't know if you could be that drastic with a small bird but the point was directing the birds attention to the only task it needs to perform to live and that's to kill. When she was hungry enough the social aspects went away. The low weights where short lived and the weight increased back to a very healthy level. I'm not an expert but the way Ed explained it made a lot of sense to me. Good luck, one of these days I might try an imprint and I hope I can make it a silent bird.

I have tried Ed's method, but without success. I hunted Francisco at 360 grams last year- over the past couple of months I slowly and carefully cut his weight down to 260. Obviously, one of my discoveries was that I was flying him too heavy, but when we got down to 260 it was evident that that was as low as I could go. However, even at that weight he would scream instead of eating right away, even though it was obvious that it was taking all of the little bit of energy he had to scream. I've brought him back up to 300, which seems to be a proper flying weight for him, and at this point I'm just hoping that the screaming will get better with age.

[FredFogg]

I have tried Ed's method, but without success. I hunted Francisco at 360 grams last year- over the past couple of months I slowly and carefully cut his weight down to 260. Obviously, one of my discoveries was that I was flying him too heavy, but when we got down to 260 it was evident that that was as low as I could go. However, even at that weight he would scream instead of eating right away, even though it was obvious that it was taking all of the little bit of energy he had to scream. I've brought him back up to 300, which seems to be a proper flying weight for him, and at this point I'm just hoping that the screaming will get better with age.

Ted, just out of curiosity, are you ending every flying session with letting him kill something? I have very little falcon experience, so I might be talking out my you know what but with my coops, she started screaming like crazy her first year and I ended every single session by letting her kill something and trading her off to her lure to eat and after about a week, she started screaming less and less until she was pretty much silent.

[redtailsrule]

I have tried Ed's method, but without success. I hunted Francisco at 360 grams last year- over the past couple of months I slowly and carefully cut his weight down to 260. Obviously, one of my discoveries was that I was flying him too heavy, but when we got down to 260 it was evident that that was as low as I could go. However, even at that weight he would scream instead of eating right away, even though it was obvious that it was taking all of the little bit of energy he had to scream. I've brought him back up to 300, which seems to be a proper flying weight for him, and at this point I'm just hoping that the screaming will get better with age.


That's too bad, I have heard imprint falcon screaming and its one of the most annoying sounds I can think of. My bosses goshawk screams aren't nearly as bad but she has almost grown out of it since this season she became a serious killer. Good luck!

[rmayes100]

I had a Red-tail a couple of years ago that I trapped the first day of trapping season that turned into a screamer (she was still hanging around her siblings and parents when I trapped her). I used a similar technique as what's described below and I was able to reduce the screaming significantly in a couple of weeks.

What I found worked well is with the bird on a perch or in the mews, when I would approach the bird if she was quiet I would walk closer, but if she started screaming I would start backing away, if she stopped screaming I would stop backing away and start approaching again. If she kept on screaming I would leave completely and come back after a few minutes and try again. Kind of a red light/green light game with a raptor. If I could get close enough to the bird to give her tidbit I would, but only if she stayed quiet. She learned pretty quick that if she was quiet I would stick around and give her tidbits and even pick her up and take her out but if she was noisy she would drive me away. I didn't have to spend a lot of time doing this and the noise subsided pretty quickly. Of course this only works if the bird kind of likes you or at least is associating you with food.


Have you tried clicker training?

Here is the idea:

Get a 'noise maker' like a whistle, or goto your pet store and buy a 'clicker'

Click in between breaths(when he is quite) and treat with a small piece of game - as small as you can treat so he is getting rewarded- just not big so it takes him a long time to eat it.

click and only treat the silence. It's ok if you mess up at th begining, but try really hard to focus, click and treat when he is silent. Do this for 5 min session.

wait 30mins.

another 5 mins session, repeat the clicking and treating his silence.

wait 1 hour

another 5 mins session.

enough for that day.

next day, repeat the following days training.

you should see improvement rather quickly, within a day or so and silence witthin the week.

Just remember to only feed him when he is silent!

g luck,

[SOF]

I had a Red-tail a couple of years ago that I trapped the first day of trapping season that turned into a screamer (she was still hanging around her siblings and parents when I trapped her). I used a similar technique as what's described below and I was able to reduce the screaming significantly in a couple of weeks.

What I found worked well is with the bird on a perch or in the mews, when I would approach the bird if she was quiet I would walk closer, but if she started screaming I would start backing away, if she stopped screaming I would stop backing away and start approaching again. If she kept on screaming I would leave completely and come back after a few minutes and try again. Kind of a red light/green light game with a raptor. If I could get close enough to the bird to give her tidbit I would, but only if she stayed quiet. She learned pretty quick that if she was quiet I would stick around and give her tidbits and even pick her up and take her out but if she was noisy she would drive me away. I didn't have to spend a lot of time doing this and the noise subsided pretty quickly. Of course this only works if the bird kind of likes you or at least is associating you with food.

I've worked with dogs that were barking their faces off. Was payed to train them to be silent. Actually, I went a little further to put 'cues' or commands on the behaviors, worked like a charm. I'm 100% certain this method will work with BOP, in fact it will work with people too. hahaha.

I'd shiddup if you gave me 5 bucks :P

[rmayes100]

Steve Layman has put screaming falcons on queue. I've heard he's trained whole broods of gyrfalcons to scream on queue when he raises his hands above his head and can give little concerts with the gyrfalcons lined up and raising his hands up and down like a conductor.

Steve has done a lot of work with Operant Conditioning and falconry, it might be worth trying to contact him. I know he's trained a lot of eyas goshawks and falcons and I'm sure anti-screaming training is always at the top of the list.



I've worked with dogs that were barking their faces off. Was payed to train them to be silent. Actually, I went a little further to put 'cues' or commands on the behaviors, worked like a charm. I'm 100% certain this method will work with BOP, in fact it will work with people too. hahaha.

I'd shiddup if you gave me 5 bucks :P

[goshawks00]

I seem to remember Steve's goshawks scream bloody murder..in fact I believe he said he likes and encourages them toconfusedd as it helps keep track of them in the woods...