Things you would like to see from NAFA?

[FredFogg]

In order for folks to help make NAFA a better organization, let's list things we would like to see changed within NAFA or things we would like to see NAFA do that they are not currently doing. Let's not ramble about general things, if you can't be specific about a topic, don't say anything.

To start, on another thread, one was talking about the survey they did and how nothing was done about that survey. Well, from my understanding, one of the biggest complaints of the last survey was NAFA members didn't have access to when their membership was up and when they would need to renewal or if their information was correct. NAFA heard this complaint and you now can look up your membership information on the website.

NAFA can't make changes if the members don't let them know what needs to be changed. NAFA can't start doing something they never did before if members don't ask for it. So let them know what you think and maybe some good ideas will come out of this and with several NAFA directors on here, they can put things in motion.

I will start by saying I would like for NAFA to think about having regional meets. They could partner with a different state in each region and that state could pretty much put on the meet but with a little help from NAFA. NAFA would still have its yearly meet, but this would give folks that don't want to travel to the middle of the US and opportunity to go to a large meet in their own back yard.

[Dirthawking]

One of my concerns was updating of information/knowing what is going on besides waiting for the newsletter. Seems like Larry has taken care of that one!

[GONEHAWKN]

i am with the regional meet thing too. i did the drive out to Texas once and it was the last time i would or will ever do it. i would rather save my time and gas money and hunt locally. i have said it before, i aint gonna drive 30 hours to hunt rabbits.

[Mike O]

I'd like to see all of the old Journal and Hawk Chalk articles published online and indexed by subject and key words.

Here's an example of what has been done with some old birding journals:

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/

[Flatwater Falconer]

I'd like to see all of the old Journal and Hawk Chalk articles published online and indexed by subject and key words.



Mike, I believe this idea is being worked on as we speak of it! It might take some time of course there are years of issues to deal with. Have you viewed the recent issues on the web site?

All the best,

[Flatwater Falconer]

i am with the regional meet thing too. i did the drive out to Texas once and it was the last time i would or will ever do it. i would rather save my time and gas money and hunt locally. i have said it before, i aint gonna drive 30 hours to hunt rabbits.

Have you spoken with your director about your idea? I think it's a great idea but unless you communicate with your area director or a director-at-large how do you think anyone will propose this at a board meeting? Your director is the exact person who could bring this up for serious discussion at the next board meeting.

All these electronic channels we talk on are fun but it boils down to taking responsibility and actually phoning your director and having an actual conversation. ;)

[Mike O]

Mike, I believe this idea is being worked on as we speak of it! It might take some time of course there are years of issues to deal with. Have you viewed the recent issues on the web site?

All the best,


I have and while the emagazines are nice they are not indexed and are not searchable. What really makes online journals valuable is the ability to search for content when you don't know what issue it might be in.

[Flatwater Falconer]

Ok yes I see what you mean Mike. I too am anticipating being able to search when doing studies or looking for specific topics.

In the mean time, Bill Oakes has a CD which, while slightly primitive and slightly out of date with recent issues, does an admirable job of indexing and categorizing by subjects, authors and more, all the 'Chalks from many years back. You can get in touch with Bill at EagleWing Publishing. com

[goshawks00]

There ares several issues I wish NAFA would work on...We are all falconers , we love to hunt our hawks, What could be more normal than to want to experience what ever breed we want...

1)Fill in the blank..... I would love to fly ----on --- game.. With the many, many different species of raptors available to falconers world wide ... I dream of the day that we, as individual falconers, could import , privately, what ever species we fancy... It is that way in the UK and I suppose ( not sure) many of the other European conutries... In fact I believe it is possible to do so even in Canada.. Get rid of the need to belong to some co-op and the need to do a special assessment of what ever species your co-op would like to import.

2) Get rid of the institutional quarantining at Federally run site... Several years ago , when i imported my Euro Spars... I did so through Canada... I had a friend there and we were able to build a quarantining site in his old garage, it was approved and inspected by thee Canadian equivalent of USFWS and approved. I brought in 10 spars there and the total cost of quarantining was less than $200.00 total... In the states it would have cost close to $2000.00 and tons of paper work and governmental BS to accomplish... Not to mention just trying to set of times and available quarantining chambers needed to do so.. Why on God's little green apple can't private citizens be able to do their own quarantining.... Luckily for me it was only 40 miles from my house to get to the spars and I visited them regularly...
That is a couple of issues NAFA could :eek: get involved with that would catapult our falconry into the 21st century instead of where we all languish now..
.02

[Hawkmom]

I agree with regional meets and such. The NAFA meet would be the 'big convention' but local regional meets in each directorate or state would be nice too. Pennsylvania has one of the largest falconry meets east of the MS. When I was in Maryland in the 80's. Enjoyed it each year.

[Flatwater Falconer]

I agree with regional meets and such. The NAFA meet would be the 'big convention' but local regional meets in each directorate or state would be nice too.

Regional meets . . . sounds like a great idea. Why not flesh out a serious plan and pitch it to your area director? With some concrete points and a direction to follow it would probably be something to consider seriously. To merely say "Hey! Do regional meets," is to plop a HUGE project onto a board which already spends many hours on Association biz.

So I'd suggest make a plan and pitch it. Factor in everything you can think of - location ideas, hotel, weathering yard situation, game availability, hawking permit/hunting license requirements by local governments game depts, meet chairs, frequency, publicity, registration teams, raffle, vendor, etc etc for each and every location we might like to see a regional meet. If the ground work were done and there was some show of support then why wouldn't the idea fly?

[Rise25]

There ares several issues I wish NAFA would work on...We are all falconers , we love to hunt our hawks, What could be more normal than to want to experience what ever breed we want...

1)Fill in the blank..... I would love to fly ----on --- game.. With the many, many different species of raptors available to falconers world wide ... I dream of the day that we, as individual falconers, could import , privately, what ever species we fancy... It is that way in the UK and I suppose ( not sure) many of the other European conutries... In fact I believe it is possible to do so even in Canada.. Get rid of the need to belong to some co-op and the need to do a special assessment of what ever species your co-op would like to import.

This.

[goshawkr]

Regional meets . . . sounds like a great idea. Why not flesh out a serious plan and pitch it to your area director? With some concrete points and a direction to follow it would probably be something to consider seriously. To merely say "Hey! Do regional meets," is to plop a HUGE project onto a board which already spends many hours on Association biz.

So I'd suggest make a plan and pitch it. Factor in everything you can think of - location ideas, hotel, weathering yard situation, game availability, hawking permit/hunting license requirements by local governments game depts, meet chairs, frequency, publicity, registration teams, raffle, vendor, etc etc for each and every location we might like to see a regional meet. If the ground work were done and there was some show of support then why wouldn't the idea fly?

Donna,

Its not a new idea. Its been bouncing around NAFA for a long time. Its been in the hawk chalks both in the form of members writting in to try and get the idea to take fire, and in the form of directors looking to see if there is interest.

Its also been done. Around 10 years ago the North Pacific Directorate held a regional meet that was a smashing success. And then the director that organized it left office and the new director didnt puruse another one.

It takes momementum to get these things going....and it takes desire to keep them going.

[goshawkr]

1)Fill in the blank..... I would love to fly ----on --- game.. With the many, many different species of raptors available to falconers world wide ... I dream of the day that we, as individual falconers, could import , privately, what ever species we fancy... It is that way in the UK and I suppose ( not sure) many of the other European conutries... In fact I believe it is possible to do so even in Canada.. Get rid of the need to belong to some co-op and the need to do a special assessment of what ever species your co-op would like to import.

Thats a good one Barry. It would be very simple to resolve. All that needs to be done is to press HARD on the FWS to get raptors excempted from Wild Bird Conservation Act. Apart from that, the Wild Brid Conservation Act should be fixed so that it only applies to wild birds, and not captive bred birds.

[ericedw]

Regional meets . . . sounds like a great idea. Why not flesh out a serious plan and pitch it to your area director? With some concrete points and a direction to follow it would probably be something to consider seriously.

This has been pitched by board members many times over the years. Once while I've been a director, I think it was Rob Sulski that pitched it and I fully support the idea. But it's always been voted down.

I think it would be a fantastic way to increase membership by making NAFA more relevant on a local level. This was even pitched at our Strategic Planning meeting at the NAFA meet.

I hope we'll get enough directors to support this one of these days and I suspect as more open minded directors are elected this will become a reality one of these days.

[Saluqi]

Thats a good one Barry. It would be very simple to resolve. All that needs to be done is to press HARD on the FWS to get raptors excempted from Wild Bird Conservation Act. Apart from that, the Wild Brid Conservation Act should be fixed so that it only applies to wild birds, and not captive bred birds.

Really? There are no CITIES issues involved?

[MrBill]

The sad thing about going to a NAFA meet is that it is costly, particularly if you are coming from any distance; this in itself limits membership participation, particularly nowadays. So, the idea of regional meets is attractive. However, I'm not sure if NAFA has the resources to make their presence known in a meaningful way each year at various meets throughout the country; it is, after all, a volunteer organization, with only a little over a thousand member in the States. But, having "regional meets" is, in itself, a good idea (IMHO).

BTW, someone mentioned not wanting to drive any distance to a NAFA meet simply to hawk what they can hunt at home, and that makes sense. But, I think those who continually go to NAFA meets do so for the comradarie as much as the hawking. It's certainly a gathering that everyone should attend, at least once.

Bill B.
Norman, OK

[frootdog]

BTW, someone mentioned not wanting to drive any distance to a NAFA meet simply to hawk what they can hunt at home, and that makes sense. But, I think those who continually go to NAFA meets do so for the comradarie as much as the hawking. It's certainly a gathering that everyone should attend, at least once.

Bill B.
Norman, OK

True. I could stay at home and catch 2-3 times the amount of game that I normally take at a NAFA meet, BUT there is usually the opportunity to hunt new or different quarry, IE jacks. The people is what keeps me coming back year after year. Also being from TX I don't get a lot of opportunity to see goshawks or gyrs fly so there is that benefit too.

One reservation i would have about regional meets would be the cost. Yes in theory they (meets) make money, but first money has to b e spent to find out if it would be a success or not. The organization has already stated that funds are tight and this would be a gamble at best. It could be a cash infusion or it could be a total bust.

[goshawkr]

Really? There are no CITIES issues involved?

Oh, CITIES can and often does become involved, but the blocker that stops the importation of raptors into the US is the Wild Bird Conservation Act.

CITIES comes into play with all international trade between member nations involving the listed species. And CITIES can be a pain, but its just a simple matter of the exporter getting permits certifing that the wild populations were not impacted. But CITIES isnt a show stopper.

The Wild Bird Conservation Act is a US law that was ostensibly written to protect parrots from extreme exploitation by the pet trade. The WBCA forbids the importation of any protected bird species unless 1) its being imported into a conservation co-op as breeding stock or 2) it is being exported by an approved (by the USFWS) foreign facility and as far as I know, there are none dealing with raptors. I am mildly suprised that there hasnt been anyone trying to expoit this opening, but perhaps there just isnt enough of a US market to make it worthwhile.

How raptors got tied in to the WBCA is a bit baffling, but I have heard many point a finger at NAFA for dropping the ball. This is probably not completely fair, but I also havent seen any evidence that NAFA has picked up the cause and tried to remedy things. I, like Barry, would love to see NAFA take this up. The best way to do that is find someone passionate about it and simply give them an endorsement to speak in NAFAs name.

[Saluqi]

What about the AFC? Are they still working on issues? They seemed to come on strong on a variety of fronts, are they working any of these things?

[ukroper]

...$65..A NIGHT (with breakfast!!!) IN DODGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....................... ......clappclappclappclappclappclappclappclapp

[joekoz]

Chris L.

There seems to be a lot of interest in border state and regional meets. Haven’t heard back from you regarding the following PM that I sent to you several days ago.

Chris:

Not sure you caught my post #20 in Joby's thread below. Non-The-Less, would like your thoughts regarding your sanctioning the idea of a Mid-Atlantic States Regional NAFEX Meet if I were to put the time and effort into organizing it.

My BIG idea! http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=8024

JoeKoz

I’ve identified a central location with:


Lot’s of available Public Gameland.
A new Comfort Inn with $49.00 weekday and $64.00 Friday and Saturday 2 person room rates

And thought that the above factors in addition to scheduling it early in the season on Saturday - November 19th and Sunday - November 20th (weekend prior to Thanksgiving) meet might draw a decent turnout.

[FredFogg]

One reservation i would have about regional meets would be the cost. Yes in theory they (meets) make money, but first money has to b e spent to find out if it would be a success or not. The organization has already stated that funds are tight and this would be a gamble at best. It could be a cash infusion or it could be a total bust.

This is where NAFA pairs with a different state in each region. NC hold 3 meets every year, one year we could be the Southeast Meet state and paired with NAFA, could hold a regional meet. We would find the spot, find the hotel, pretty much do all the work that NAFA does and all NAFA would have to do is maybe help us organize it. The funds made during the auction could be divided between NAFA and the state putting on the meet thus helping the state putting on the meet afford to put on the meet. Each year a different state holds the regional meet. If a state doesn't want to hold one, they don't have to participate. It can be done, but yes, it will take some work.

[goshawkr]

One reservation i would have about regional meets would be the cost. Yes in theory they (meets) make money, but first money has to b e spent to find out if it would be a success or not. The organization has already stated that funds are tight and this would be a gamble at best. It could be a cash infusion or it could be a total bust.

Any well planned meet will not cost any money at all. I have planned plenty of them for my state club, and its a very simple matter to make them cost neutral.

It DOES take time and effort to plan them, but thats not part of the cost I am talking about.

The planner talks to a hotel, and gets a group rate, then quotes that group rate to the attendees. Hotel costs nothing.

The planner contacts a resturant and finds the cost of hosting a meal in a banquet room, and ideally gets that quoted per person, and then passes those costs on to the participants by collecting banquet fees up front. Again, not cost to the org.

Gathering some informal places to meet for non-banquet meals is even easier - find out who has the room, and tell everyone they are on their own at those locations for their meals.

Its effort, but its easy and its simple.

[joekoz]

Any well planned meet will not cost any money at all.

Its effort, but its easy and its simple.

http://www.nafex.net/images/smilies/amen.gif

Have run a number of quickly organized adhoc events, and this has been my experience as well.

Unless I'm mistaken, most on here would be happy with an opportunity to get together with other falconers in a setting where there is an opportunity to socialize and fly their birds on game.

[frootdog]

Any well planned meet will not cost any money at all. I have planned plenty of them for my state club, and its a very simple matter to make them cost neutral.



For smaller clubs this may be true. I'm used to working on NAFA meets and Texas meets and we DO spend money to make the experience better. Well planned has nothing to do with cost. Can you put on a no cost to the club meet? Yes. Are the meets where money is spent by the club better? I can't answer that since I've never participated in one of those.

Like Donna said gather all the details and pitch it to your director, or the board as a whole.

I'm not opposed to the idea, don't get me wrong however if there were a regional NAFA meet in or near Texas, I would not attend. I only have so much vacation and between my other hawking trips I would not be able to swing it. Same is most likely true if the NAFEX meet ever comes to fruition. I would love to and one day when I am retired then it may happen but until then I have to pick and choose.

[FredFogg]

I'm not opposed to the idea, don't get me wrong however if there were a regional NAFA meet in or near Texas, I would not attend. I only have so much vacation and between my other hawking trips I would not be able to swing it. Same is most likely true if the NAFEX meet ever comes to fruition. I would love to and one day when I am retired then it may happen but until then I have to pick and choose.

The good thing about a regional meet is it doesn't have to be an entire week. Maybe Thursday through Sunday?

[Steve L.]

The best way to do that is find someone passionate about it and simply give them an endorsement to speak in NAFAs name.

I nominate you Geoff!

[frootdog]

The good thing about a regional meet is it doesn't have to be an entire week. Maybe Thursday through Sunday?

True. And not to be a total naysayer, but it's also more strain you put on raffle donors. Eventually they are going to say no, and at what cost? They donate to the regional meet where the funds get split potentially and they decide not to donate to the big meet. How many times do you expect donor x to donate to NAFA be it the national meet or x# of regional meets. Or they donate to those meets at the expense of cutting NCFG out of the mix. Just saying it's not as easy as saying it could be free, it can be done. There are potential pitfalls. It's not all roses.

[FredFogg]

True. And not to be a total naysayer, but it's also more strain you put on raffle donors. Eventually they are going to say no, and at what cost? They donate to the regional meet where the funds get split potentially and they decide not to donate to the big meet. How many times do you expect donor x to donate to NAFA be it the national meet or x# of regional meets. Or they donate to those meets at the expense of cutting NCFG out of the mix. Just saying it's not as easy as saying it could be free, it can be done. There are potential pitfalls. It's not all roses.

I am a half glass full guy! toungeout :D Well, that is until I tip it up and drink that half glass of bourbon! :eek:

[frootdog]

I am a half glass full guy! toungeout :D Well, that is until I tip it up and drink that half glass of bourbon! :eek:

Like I said I'm all for it, just pointing out some reasons why it's not just that easy. I think a lot of people say hey what about us in the PNW, east coast, north east, etc but don't see the bigger picture.

[goshawkr]

True. And not to be a total naysayer, but it's also more strain you put on raffle donors. Eventually they are going to say no, and at what cost? They donate to the regional meet where the funds get split potentially and they decide not to donate to the big meet. How many times do you expect donor x to donate to NAFA be it the national meet or x# of regional meets. Or they donate to those meets at the expense of cutting NCFG out of the mix. Just saying it's not as easy as saying it could be free, it can be done. There are potential pitfalls. It's not all roses.

Why does that matter? Why does there have to be a raffle at all?

If there is a raffle, and the proceeds go to NAFA, who freakin cares if it detracts from the donations to the main meet? If it steals attendance from the main meet, who cares?? Its still fostering face to face comraderie, and its still raising funds going into the war chest.

Or one could just use this as an excuse to give up....

Either way, its no skin off my back. I am not currently a NAFA member - I resigned as a protest two years ago - and I wouldnt be invited because NAFA is rather snobby that way with their functions.

[FredFogg]

Why does that matter? Why does there have to be a raffle at all?

If there is a raffle, and the proceeds go to NAFA, who freakin cares if it detracts from the donations to the main meet? If it steals attendance from the main meet, who cares?? Its still fostering face to face comraderie, and its still raising funds going into the war chest.

Or one could just use this as an excuse to give up....

Either way, its no skin off my back. I am not currently a NAFA member - I resigned as a protest two years ago - and I wouldnt be invited because NAFA is rather snobby that way with their functions.

Geoff, with the changes that have been made and are being made, why don't you rejoin? Holding grudges from stuff that happened 2 years ago, well, my father said it best, "Get over it son, tomorrow is a new day!!".

[goshawkr]

I nominate you Geoff!

I wouldnt be a good choice. I am not really passionate about importing raptors. I have some pipe dreams, and I am on a breeding co-operative, but I really have no real passion for them. At least not now.

But I do know some who would be, if they still have the spare energy. Although most of the people I would list off are so pissed at how NAFA has handled the WBCA and how it applies to raptors that it would be difficult to persuade them to come inside NAFA to help out. Fun little catch .22 there....

[Eagle Owl]

Why does that matter? Why does there have to be a raffle at all?

If there is a raffle, and the proceeds go to NAFA, who freakin cares if it detracts from the donations to the main meet? If it steals attendance from the main meet, who cares?? Its still fostering face to face comraderie, and its still raising funds going into the war chest.

Or one could just use this as an excuse to give up....

Either way, its no skin off my back. I am not currently a NAFA member - I resigned as a protest two years ago - and I wouldnt be invited because NAFA is rather snobby that way with their functions.

No offense, Geoff, but with an attitude like that I am glad you aren't a NAFA member. Krys is merely pointing out the potential problems that would/could exist if there were regional meets. People have said they want regional meets and don't see any problems with having them, Krys is merely playing devils advocate. He never said it is a dumb idea that would never work. Is it not a good idea to look at all sides of a potential issue to see the negatives and positives. If you just jump in head first, without looking at it from all sides, the you are just setting yourself (in this case NAFA) for failure.

Besides, if you don't care, then why are you on here complaining about it in the first place?crazyy

[FredFogg]

Personally, I don't see it putting a strain on donors. The raffles at the regional meets don't have to be as big as the NAFA meet. Most of our donations at our state meets are from the falconers themselves, I think this could continue on the regional level. I for one enjoy the raffles, but they don't have to be part of the regional meet. The regional meets can just be for falconers to get together, socialize and hunt! And I guarantee you if you add up all the folks that would attend all the regional meets, it would add up to more than what attends the NAFA yearly meet. There are just so many folks that won't make that drive. You can spin all the negatives you want on it, but I think the positives out weigh the negatives.

[goshawkr]

Geoff, with the changes that have been made and are being made, why don't you rejoin? Holding grudges from stuff that happened 2 years ago, well, my father said it best, "Get over it son, tomorrow is a new day!!".

The short answer is my resources are going other places right now.

The longer answer boils down to "I am considering it."

NAFA can win me back... but I dont buy the BS that I should change from the inside. If NAFA changes enough that we agree on things more than we disagree its worth being a part of. If not, I need to be a part of something else. :D

Anyway, I am considering it. I really am. "My" current director is a very good man, and I intend on having some long talks with him very soon about that very topic.

[FredFogg]

The short answer is my resources are going other places right now.

The longer answer boils down to "I am considering it."

NAFA can win me back... but I dont buy the BS that I should change from the inside. If NAFA changes enough that we agree on things more than we disagree its worth being a part of. If not, I need to be a part of something else. :D

Anyway, I am considering it. I really am. "My" current director is a very good man, and I intend on having some long talks with him very soon about that very topic.

Sounds good to me Geoff! The question is what are the things you disagree with and have you relayed them to "Your" current director? NAFA can only change if folks participate and let the directors know. Even if someone isn't a NAFA member, they can still contact the director of their region and voice what they like and dislike in order to become a member.

[goshawkr]

No offense, Geoff, but with an attitude like that I am glad you aren't a NAFA member.

Well, that is actually one part of the reason why NAFA and I parted paths. Up until 2 years ago NAFA spent far too much time deciding that things couldnt be done. I am a problem solver. Thats actually my profession. I take problems and find the solution.

Maybe NAFA has totally changed its stripes. (giggle) Ok, probably not....


Besides, if you don't care, then why are you on here complaining about it in the first place?crazyy

Who is complaining? I am discussing. And offering an outline for how to pull it off and why its a good idea even if it "competes" with the big meet in November.

As someone who left NAFA over differences of opinion, I thought my views were actually pretty valid in this thread. And I still do.

[Eagle Owl]

I am not currently a NAFA member - I resigned as a protest two years ago


I am a problem solver. Thats actually my profession. I take problems and find the solution.



OK, let me get this straight. You left NAFA to protest but you are a problem solver. So how has you leaving NAFA solved any problems? All you have done is left OTHERS to solve the problems and you will only come on board when those problems are fixed. Sounds a little hypocritical to me. If you are a problem solver, then you should be at the forefront in helping NAFA get back on track, which they are doing by the way. But it takes time and most people want instant gratification and that is just not going to happen.


As someone who left NAFA over differences of opinion, I thought my views were actually pretty valid in this thread. And I still do.

First of all, I have never said that your input or anyone else's input was not welcome. What I don't agree with is you jumping on Krys for trying to look at the idea of regional meets from another side. Everyone was posting how great regional meets would be, Krys was merely pointing out POTENTIAL problems.

Krys has been the Co-Chair for the THA Meets for many years and has been the Rafflemeister for I think 5 years now. THA has Meets that rival, if not surpass, California Meets. He was also instrumental in the organization of the 2008 NAFA Meet in Amarillo. So he is coming from this as having a lot of experience organizing large Meets, not merely weekend get-togethers. Besides, if something is going to work and work well, ALL sides need to be looked at.

[everetkhorton]

Regional meets . . . sounds like a great idea. Why not flesh out a serious plan and pitch it to your area director? With some concrete points and a direction to follow it would probably be something to consider seriously. To merely say "Hey! Do regional meets," is to plop a HUGE project onto a board which already spends many hours on Association biz.

So I'd suggest make a plan and pitch it. Factor in everything you can think of - location ideas, hotel, weathering yard situation, game availability, hawking permit/hunting license requirements by local governments game depts, meet chairs, frequency, publicity, registration teams, raffle, vendor, etc etc for each and every location we might like to see a regional meet. If the ground work were done and there was some show of support then why wouldn't the idea fly?

Donna:
You are 100% right, it is much easier said than done. Meets are a lot of work for many people. But IF someone wants to do the foot work you have pointed out a lot of the detail, but not all, there is always something that get put aside. But this list is a good start.

[hawkstir]

I would like it to be easier to join. In particular, I don't see why they need the signatures of references or my falconry resume. My falconry permit number and the names of a couple current NAFA members should be enough. It should be able to be done online. Currently it's easier to file my federal taxes then join NAFA.

I'm all in favor of smaller, regional meets. Nothing fancy. Just get together, socialize and fly our birds.

How about NAFA picnics during the off season? A chance to gather and discuss politics face to face. Second thought; this could be dangerous.

[joekoz]

I
I'm all in favor of smaller, regional meets. Nothing fancy. Just get together, socialize and fly our birds.

amennn

Who needs NAFA to support organizing a cross state or regional falconer gathering (AKA Meet). How about NAFEX!

Who needs Raffles.

Keep it simple and make it happen!

Maybe only 5 people will show up. Maybe 100 will. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

You will never know if you don't give it a try!!!!!

[Dirthawking]

I would like it to be easier to join. In particular, I don't see why they need the signatures of references or my falconry resume. My falconry permit number and the names of a couple current NAFA members should be enough. It should be able to be done online. Currently it's easier to file my federal taxes then join NAFA.


That is all it takes. As has been said:

You fill it out, no resume needed. It says keep it brief, i.e. I am a falconer, I fly birds, etc, simple.....
You have two people that belong to NAFA sign it, simple....
You put it in an envelope and send it in, simple....

If filing your federal taxes is easier, you are doing something wrong! :D

[hawkstir]

That is all it takes. As has been said:

You fill it out, no resume needed. It says keep it brief, i.e. I am a falconer, I fly birds, etc, simple.....
You have two people that belong to NAFA sign it, simple....
You put it in an envelope and send it in, simple....

If filing your federal taxes is easier, you are doing something wrong! :D
Which? The taxes or NAFA?

You have two people that belong to NAFA sign it, simple.... Not so when the closest NAFA member is an hour away; extra mailing or a drive each way. And as I've said in another thread, what's the point in having the signatures?
I don't sign my taxes anymore and they get accepted. You know; it is the electronic communication age.

[frootdog]

Which? The taxes or NAFA?

You have two people that belong to NAFA sign it, simple.... Not so when the closest NAFA member is an hour away; extra mailing or a drive each way. And as I've said in another thread, what's the point in having the signatures?
I don't sign my taxes anymore and they get accepted. You know; it is the electronic communication age.

Walk next door and have your 2 neighbors sign it. It really is that simple.

[Eagle Owl]

Just to clarify, you only need ONE NAFA member to sign your application or TWO people that are not NAFA members.

[frootdog]

Why does that matter? Why does there have to be a raffle at all?

If there is a raffle, and the proceeds go to NAFA, who freakin cares if it detracts from the donations to the main meet? If it steals attendance from the main meet, who cares?? Its still fostering face to face comraderie, and its still raising funds going into the war chest.

Like I said Geoff I'm all for it, just not interested in participating. I can tell you 2 years ago when the NAFA meet was in TX the raffle donations to the TX club for out state meet took a huge hit. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. The donations were right back up there this past year. You can't possibly expect the vendors to keep giving and giving to the same cause.

And yes you are right there does not have to be a raffle. Our state club encourages any member to throw a mini-meet during the year. No raffle just hunting. The same could be true of NAFA.

On the other hand the national club is NOT all about the meet. The meet (or better yet the raffle) however IS a large cash infusion to the club.

Do you want NAFA putting resources into regional meets or national issues?

[hawkstir]

Walk next door and have your 2 neighbors sign it. It really is that simple.

Your assuming I have a neighbor within walking distance.

This is getting too personalized. My point was that I feel NAFA's application could be simplified and brought into the electronic era.

[Saluqi]

Your assuming I have a neighbor within walking distance.

This is getting too personalized. My point was that I feel NAFA's application could be simplified and brought into the electronic era.

Fred,

If it's that big of a deal to get a couple of signatures, then fill out the app, send it to me, I'll sign it, I'll get Chris Lynn to sign it, and I'll mail it in for you. Sometime in the future I'm sure the application process will be streamlined, but for now it is was it is.

[hawkstir]

Paul,

Your right, it is what it is. I can get signatures one way or another. So no big deal. I just don't see the point of them.

[goshawkr]

Like I said Geoff I'm all for it, just not interested in participating. I can tell you 2 years ago when the NAFA meet was in TX the raffle donations to the TX club for out state meet took a huge hit. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. The donations were right back up there this past year. You can't possibly expect the vendors to keep giving and giving to the same cause.

And yes you are right there does not have to be a raffle. Our state club encourages any member to throw a mini-meet during the year. No raffle just hunting. The same could be true of NAFA.

On the other hand the national club is NOT all about the meet. The meet (or better yet the raffle) however IS a large cash infusion to the club.

Do you want NAFA putting resources into regional meets or national issues?

Your absolutely right in that there is a finite resource to tap into for raffles.

But raffles at the regional meet(s) competing with raffles at the big meet are a complete non issue! It all goes into the NAFA coffers in the end. My hunch is that there would be an overall increase in raffle proceeds, because the total number of particpants would go up. Some people that arent willing to take the big hit to go to a national meet would be willing to take a smaller hit to go to a regional one. Some people would go to both. Overall, the meet attendance would be much higher I would expect.

It might be true that the proceeds from the big meet go down because there are fewer items attracting attention... but that would be more than compensated for by the proceeds from the little meet(s)



On the other hand the national club is NOT all about the meet. The meet (or better yet the raffle) however IS a large cash infusion to the club.

Do you want NAFA putting resources into regional meets or national issues?

NAFA isnt a national club. Its a continental one, although it has NEVER acted like it, as the Canadian members will attest. It didnt even recognize Mexico as being part of the continent until a few years ago, and it still dosnt recognize the Carribean as part of the continent (although I dont know that much falconry goes on out there, so it probably dosnt matter).

Well - my number one beef with NAFA and with my own state club is that far too many resources go into printing a slick magazine and throwing a wild party. Those things certainly have value, real value. But they easily become a distraction from the things that really matter. If they are done on a smaller scale the value would still be there.

Do I want NAFA putting resources into regional meets? Not at the expense of more important things. But I WOULD like to see NAFA embrace the concept, and encourage and support members in the regions to hold them. That could and should be as simple as soliciting a volonteer as a meet chairman each year, distributing the details through the NAFA communciation outlets, and letting it run on its own.

As I recall, when Dave Knutson (who was the North Pacific Director at the time) put together the regional meet we had about 10 years ago he couldnt even get NAFA to endorse it. He just did it on his own, and spread the word to the regional membership himself

[wyodjm]

Planning meets is an interesting topic. What is the purpose of a meet? Fellowship would be up there on the list but so would hawking. A time and place for friends to catch up and socialize. In the past, NAFA has panned meet locations several years ahead. This could have drawbacks, because game numbers can fluctuate drastically in several years.

I think it would be important to hold a meet in an area where there were high game numbers. This is not as easy as it sounds. It is probably safe to say that meet organizers would want to consider the three big game species that falconers would be interested in hawking. Cottontails, jacks, and ducks. I think those would be the big three, when considering longwingers and shortwingers. Other game species that people could hawk like quail and grouse would be icing on the cake.

How do you determine areas that are going to have high enough game numbers to accommodate a national meet? Many times, especially for people back east, traveling and attending the one big national meet of the year is their one and only chance to hawk quarry they don’t have at home.

I think smaller, regional meets are a good idea, if there are high enough game numbers to justify traveling. But then, it may boil down to the different reasons people travel to meets.

[Ron Clarke]

Holding grudges from stuff that happened 2 years ago, well, my father said it best, "Get over it son, tomorrow is a new day!!".

A friend's mother used to say, "Someday you'll get over this. Choose today."

[Chris L.]

Fred,

If it's that big of a deal to get a couple of signatures, then fill out the app, send it to me, I'll sign it, I'll get Chris Lynn to sign it, and I'll mail it in for you. Sometime in the future I'm sure the application process will be streamlined, but for now it is was it is.


amennn i do not mind signing

[Dirthawking]

Myself and Brandi offer the same. Difference is...we live in the same house so two sigs is easy.

[everetkhorton]

That is all it takes. As has been said:

You fill it out, no resume needed. It says keep it brief, i.e. I am a falconer, I fly birds, etc, simple.....
You have two people that belong to NAFA sign it, simple....
You put it in an envelope and send it in, simple....

If filing your federal taxes is easier, you are doing something wrong! :D

Mario:
Just maybe that is to complicated for some ;) :>)

[everetkhorton]

Like I said Geoff I'm all for it, just not interested in participating. I can tell you 2 years ago when the NAFA meet was in TX the raffle donations to the TX club for out state meet took a huge hit. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. The donations were right back up there this past year. You can't possibly expect the vendors to keep giving and giving to the same cause.

And yes you are right there does not have to be a raffle. Our state club encourages any member to throw a mini-meet during the year. No raffle just hunting. The same could be true of NAFA.

On the other hand the national club is NOT all about the meet. The meet (or better yet the raffle) however IS a large cash infusion to the club.

Do you want NAFA putting resources into regional meets or national issues?

Krys:
As you know, the NAFA meet has to pay for itself. I am not sure but the regestration pays for the print,mug, pin etc. The money from the raffle pays for the speaker, meeting room etc. Brandi could also speak to this.

[rmayes100]

Should NAFA expand it's meets and other social opportunities or should NAFA focus more on legislation like being able to import exotic birds more easily? Looking from the outside in at NAFA it looks like it tries to be a lot of different things, maybe too many things for an organization it's size. Is NAFA a social club, a political organization, a conservation group, a scientific research fund, a publisher or a little bit of everything? Back in 1961 it made sense for NAFA to try to be all of these things, there wasn't anything else for falconers in North America. If I were to look into my crystal ball though, in 10-20 years I don't see a bright future for NAFA if it continues to try and do all these things in a mediocre manner.

The problem I see with NAFA is it's starting to get squeezed from several sides. We have sites like NAFEX providing social opportunities and chances to meet other falconers, people are even planning field meets on here and this site is free to join. Then on the political side there is the American Falconry Conservancy which has a very clear mission statement and is very focused on the legislative and legal aspects of the sport. NAFA's publications are getting more competition all the time too, falconers have access to more information now than at any point in history.

It's interesting that people seem most interested in more field meets from NAFA, and yet there's no mention of field meets or anything really having to do with social events in NAFA's mission statement. Would it be so bad if NAFA became nothing but a social club and focused it's efforts on providing a bunch of excellent meets and social events every year? I would think the falconry community would rally around such an organization. An organization pulled in 50 different directions on the other hand, it's hard to get excited about that in my opinion and it's even harder to get excited about giving such an organization $35 a year.

[FredFogg]

Like I said Geoff I'm all for it, just not interested in participating. I can tell you 2 years ago when the NAFA meet was in TX the raffle donations to the TX club for out state meet took a huge hit. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. The donations were right back up there this past year. You can't possibly expect the vendors to keep giving and giving to the same cause.



Krys, I was at that meet and if I remember correctly, the raffles for the NAFA meet weren't all that great that year. That year was a bad year for NAFA with all the turmoil and fighting going on (see Agenda 8.3). So I imagine the raffles for all state clubs took a hit that year, not just Texas.

[FredFogg]

Should NAFA expand it's meets and other social opportunities or should NAFA focus more on legislation like being able to import exotic birds more easily? Looking from the outside in at NAFA it looks like it tries to be a lot of different things, maybe too many things for an organization it's size. Is NAFA a social club, a political organization, a conservation group, a scientific research fund, a publisher or a little bit of everything? Back in 1961 it made sense for NAFA to try to be all of these things, there wasn't anything else for falconers in North America. If I were to look into my crystal ball though, in 10-20 years I don't see a bright future for NAFA if it continues to try and do all these things in a mediocre manner.

The problem I see with NAFA is it's starting to get squeezed from several sides. We have sites like NAFEX providing social opportunities and chances to meet other falconers, people are even planning field meets on here and this site is free to join. Then on the political side there is the American Falconry Conservancy which has a very clear mission statement and is very focused on the legislative and legal aspects of the sport. NAFA's publications are getting more competition all the time too, falconers have access to more information now than at any point in history.

It's interesting that people seem most interested in more field meets from NAFA, and yet there's no mention of field meets or anything really having to do with social events in NAFA's mission statement. Would it be so bad if NAFA became nothing but a social club and focused it's efforts on providing a bunch of excellent meets and social events every year? I would think the falconry community would rally around such an organization. An organization pulled in 50 different directions on the other hand, it's hard to get excited about that in my opinion and it's even harder to get excited about giving such an organization $35 a year.

Randy, the answer to your question is Yes! NAFA should do all those things! The falconry community is a small one and I think the big thing you are forgetting is NAFA is falconers, you and I and everyone else. We are better off if we can unite and be a larger number to speak for ourselves. They should work on legislation, they should work on conservation, they should do all those things. The single meet is their way of uniting all falconers once a year and also makes them a little money. The Hawk Chalk is basically NAFA's business publication with input from some states and the Journal is a falconry magazine with falconry stories. I think the cost for the publications will go down in the future due to them being put online now. Personally, I like getting the Journal in hard copy, but I don't need a hard copy of the Hawk Chalk now that I can read it online. The regional meets are just an idea folks would like to happen. As I stated before, I would like regional meets, but they don't have to be put soley on by NAFA, they could be put on by a different state each year and NAFA can help out.

So yes, they should do all these things because we as individual falconers can't do them by ourselves. And if you think all that isn't worth $35 or maybe now $50 with the increase, well, try getting all that in any other organization and see what it cost you!

[Tony James]

Randy, the answer to your question is Yes! NAFA should do all those things! The falconry community is a small one and I think the big thing you are forgetting is NAFA is falconers, you and I and everyone else. We are better off if we can unite and be a larger number to speak for ourselves. They should work on legislation, they should work on conservation, they should do all those things. The single meet is their way of uniting all falconers once a year and also makes them a little money. The Hawk Chalk is basically NAFA's business publication with input from some states and the Journal is a falconry magazine with falconry stories. I think the cost for the publications will go down in the future due to them being put online now. Personally, I like getting the Journal in hard copy, but I don't need a hard copy of the Hawk Chalk now that I can read it online. The regional meets are just an idea folks would like to happen. As I stated before, I would like regional meets, but they don't have to be put soley on by NAFA, they could be put on by a different state each year and NAFA can help out.

So yes, they should do all these things because we as individual falconers can't do them by ourselves. And if you think all that isn't worth $35 or maybe now $50 with the increase, well, try getting all that in any other organization and see what it cost you!

Hi Fred,

I think it's clear to see you're right from the responses to this thread alone.
Looking at it from the outside, it seems NAFA is required to do all that it does, and more.
However, it is important to remember that the majority of NAFA's membership are happy to quietly pay their dues in support of it's aims and achievements, and, as you point out, the contribution, when compared to the benefits and potential benefits provided, is tiny.
Most members will appreciate the commitment of those who voluntarily take on the burdon of serving, though sadly they are unlikely to say so, especially on a forum. They have busy lives, they pay their dues, and are happy in the knowledge that they contribute in some small way to the protection of falconry and the projection of a positive image for falconry. On top of that, members benefit by receiving interesting publications, the opportunity to meet others of like mind, or perhaps to benefit from club offers. And sometimes it's just nice to 'belong'.
One problem NAFA faces, and it's not a unique one, is that we are no longer starved of falconry information and entertainment. If anything, we are drowning in it. This has robbed NAFA (and similar organisations around the world) of what formerly had attracted so many. Sadly, those looking for 'value for money', have questioned the need to subscribe to an organisation where the 'goodies' are not on their own worth the cost, and they have selfishly chosen to ignore the wider value to falconry. NAFA should not get too hung up on trying to remain or become again, attractive to those who instinctively want more out that they are prepared to put in.
If we were to require the paid professional services of the kind that have been voluntarily deployed on our behalf, the Lawyers, the Scientists, the Conservationists, the Media men etc etc, what do you imagine we would need to pay for the level of representation and protection we have received from the likes of NAFA, IAF and others? Ten times what we currently pay? One hundred times?

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Chris L.]

Should Looking from the outside in at NAFA it looks like it tries to be a lot of different things, maybe too many things for an organization it's size. Is NAFA a social club, a political organization, a conservation group, a scientific research fund, a publisher or a little bit of everything? Back in 1961 it made sense for NAFA to try to be all of these things, there wasn't anything else for falconers in North America. If I were to look into my crystal ball though, in 10-20 years I don't see a bright future for NAFA if it continues to try and do all these things in a mediocre manner.
.



One problem NAFA faces, and it's not a unique one, is that we are no longer starved of falconry information and entertainment. If anything, we are drowning in it. This has robbed NAFA (and similar organisations around the world) of what formerly had attracted so many. Sadly, those looking for 'value for money', have questioned the need to subscribe to an organisation where the 'goodies' are not on their own worth the cost, and they have selfishly chosen to ignore the wider value to falconry. NAFA should not get too hung up on trying to remain or become again, attractive to those who instinctively want more out that they are prepared to put in.

Best wishes,

Tony.

Randy and Tony,

I could not agree more with more with you guys. They cannot do it "all" and survive much longer. Falconers are expecting way to much out of an organization that is composed of volunteers and one that only cost 35 dollars a year. There has to be a balance of both staff and money to be able to conquer all of the tasks they set forth in this day and age. Lets face it falconry doesn't have either one of those.

I think if they were to focus their efforts and trim down what "they are expected to do" they will provide a much better service to the falconry community and the numbers of members would rise again.

Its nice to see I am not the only one who feels this way.

[Tony James]

Randy and Tony,

I could not agree more with more with you guys. They cannot do it "all" and survive much longer. Falconers are expecting way to much out of an organization that is composed of volunteers and one that only cost 35 dollars a year. There has to be a balance of both staff and money to be able to conquer all of the tasks they set forth in this day and age. Lets face it falconry doesn't have either one of those.

I think if they were to focus their efforts and trim down what "they are expected to do" they will provide a much better service to the falconry community and the numbers of members would rise again.

Its nice to see I am not the only one who feels this way.

Hi Chris,

I'm not great with words, so I've probably struggled to get my thoughts across as I'd like, but I think there is an obligation for falconers and supporters of falconry to offer their support to organisations like NAFA.
After all, with enough support and involvement from all of us, we can do it all and not just survive, but thrive.

An organisation like NAFA includes amongst it's membership, and importantly amongst it's board members, a wide range of particular interests and skills. At any given time, certain aspects will be better represented than others, according to the skills and interests of those making up the board, and we, as ordinary falconers, should be grateful for the quality representation we get, rather than critical of what we see as lacking --- and if possible, we should make ourselves available to help where we can. By offering our support, in both moral and financial terms, we create opportunities for success that otherwise will not exist.

If we wish to remain represented, but fail to support our recognised bodies, what are the alternatives? I suppose the obvious alternative to paying a little money towards the committed volunteer representatives that we are able to vote in or out, is to pay a lot of money to professionals that are largely committed to accepting their fee!

The mechanics of an organisation like NAFA ensures that, on balance, falconer's views are well represented, and while it may at times appear to be slanted in one direction or other, our collective voices will inform our representatives. On the other hand, if bodies such as NAFA are debilitated through lack of support, other bodies with very much narrower views will try to emerge, and the balanced view risks being swallowed by destructive single issue battles and personality clashes.

Falconry has now, and always has had differences within (witness Isaac Walton's The Complete Angler for example;)), but we must, if we are to survive the 21st century, learn to be a little more supportive of each other, and supportive of those who do the best they can to do what we cannot, or choose not to do for ourselves.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[joekoz]

I joined NAFA when I became a falconer. Then I dropped my membership because after reading articles in Hawk Chalk I decided I didn’t want to belong to an organization that I felt was dysfunctional. This past January I re-joined NAFA. In January I also joined AFC.

The reason I pay my dues to both is for the same reason I pay dues to the NRA. I have no interest in these organizations as it relates to social events or subject specific information.

With all of the Anti’s out there, I support these organizations with my dues for the value of their legislative and lobbying VOICE.

[rmayes100]

I don't have a problem with NAFA becoming a purely political and legislative body, nor do I have a problem with NAFA becoming a social organization. My point earlier was simply that NAFA seems to be biting off more than it can chew, and in this day in age is it really necessary that NAFA try to do all these things when there are, honestly, other organizations that do some of those things better?

The general impression I get is that NAFA hasn't been very effective as a legislative body or a political representative of falconers. I think the mass exodus of falconers from NAFA over the last few years while the Feds were re-writing the falconry regulations speaks volumes in that regard, not to mention the creation of the AFC during the same time period.

$35/year doesn't seem like much, but as a falconer if you try to support your state club, NAFA the AFC maybe Ducks Unlimited or some other conservation group you can end up spending $200 a year in membership fees which is beyond chump change. Those of us with wives or husbands have some explaining to do when we spend that much money every year on top of the other costs of being a falconer. So at some point, especially in this current economic climate, you start looking at all these organizations and thinking about where your money is going and if it's worth supporting all of them every year and NAFA tends to fall towards the bottom of the list. These are the economic realities for falconers considering joining or renewing with NAFA, like it or not. I appreciate that NAFA is run by volunteers and I am grateful for the time and money many of these people have devoted to the falconry community. This is all the more reason IMHO to limit the scope of NAFA so that people's time and money are used most effectively towards the issues that are the most important to the membership, whatever they may be. If NAFA officers and board members are spending their time and the membership's dues on pet projects then I think you have a pretty good answer as to why NAFA membership is declining.

[Saluqi]

Hi Randy,

I don't know you, but you sound like you speak from experience. Can you explain what you mean when you say that NAFA hasn't been an effective legislative body? As I try to gain more understanding of NAFA's shortcomings I'd really like to have some examples of these things. As to the mass exodus, has there really been a mass exodus? We've heard from Bridget, Dan, and Geoff that they left because of specific issues, but mass exodus? Seems like attrition might be a better term, maybe I'm missing something. Thanks.

[MrBill]

Paul,

The definition of "exodus" is "the departure of a large number of people," regardless of reason(s). NAFA membership used to be over twice what it is now. So, it looks like there was an "exodus" to me.

Bill B.
Norman, OK

[Saluqi]

Thanks Bill, I didn't have my Webster's handy when I replied. Seems to me the exodus from NAFA was caused more by attrition.

[rmayes100]

I wish I could speak from experience with regards to NAFA. I have been away from falconry for a number of years, I was a NAFA member back in the early and mid 90's. When I took up falconry again a few years ago I was excited to find the wealth of information on sites like this one, and what I found was more than a few people bitter and upset with NAFA. I'm sure there are threads on this very site about it, there certainly are on the IFF site. I was even more excited when I heard the Feds were re-writing the falconry regulations, heck from a legislative aspect it was the most exciting thing to happen to falconry in the US in decades and yet NAFA lost membership during this time, call it attrition or whatever you want. The fact is during this critical point in American falconry many people chose not to give a measly $35 to NAFA, it was enough to give me pause before joining NAFA again. It is this fact that is enough for me to say with some degree of confidence that the falconry community does not see NAFA as a political or legislative organization in the United States, or if they do they do not see NAFA's political objectives as aligned with their own.

[Tony James]

I wish I could speak from experience with regards to NAFA. I have been away from falconry for a number of years, I was a NAFA member back in the early and mid 90's. When I took up falconry again a few years ago I was excited to find the wealth of information on sites like this one, and what I found was more than a few people bitter and upset with NAFA. I'm sure there are threads on this very site about it, there certainly are on the IFF site. I was even more excited when I heard the Feds were re-writing the falconry regulations, heck from a legislative aspect it was the most exciting thing to happen to falconry in the US in decades and yet NAFA lost membership during this time, call it attrition or whatever you want. The fact is during this critical point in American falconry many people chose not to give a measly $35 to NAFA, it was enough to give me pause before joining NAFA again. It is this fact that is enough for me to say with some degree of confidence that the falconry community does not see NAFA as a political or legislative organization in the United States, or if they do they do not see NAFA's political objectives as aligned with their own.

Hi Randy,

when I first spoke to a non-falconer friend about my having joined the IFF, he recoiled in horror and offered the opinion that if I had any sense I would avoid all forums, rather than be effected by the poisonous posts that all forums attract.
I like to think there is more potential for good in them than he does, but I have to say he did have a point.
Be careful you don't imagine that 'more than a few people bitter and upset with NAFA' are representative of a view worthy of adopting, at least not without proper examination --- I suspect we could find a forum that offers that view of the largest representative body whatever the sport or passion.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[MrBill]

Randy,

People don't retire from NAFA, so, attrition is a reflectionof members either resigning by not paying their dues, or dying. So, clearly this "attrition" has been because of not paying dues, regardless of how you slice it. However, this may not be entirely because people have been upset with the way NAFA has been doing business; in fact, I would argue that in the past most folks didn't care one way or the other and the the attrition has primarily been because of other things. Years ago, I used to say, "If it wasn't for the publications, NAFA's membership would drop dramatically." And, since then, tons of information about falconry in the United States is available in print, on DVD's, the Internet, etc. So, there is not this compelling reason for most folks to join NAFA, like there was before. The people that have voiced their opinion about NAFA's roll in falconry, are in the minority (IMO). I doubt we will ever see NAFA's membership up to where it was in the early 90's again. However, what I do think we will see is a smaller group of falconers that represent more concern about the future of falconry than in the past, and that's a good thing. NAFA certainly doesn't want to give anyone reason(s) not to join or renew their membership, but, at the same time, they have to come to terms with the reality of the times. Anyway, welcome back to falconry, and I would encourage you to rejoin NAFA. As I said, the decline in membership is a reflection of a change in time, more than anything else, and heck, it's still nice to receive those publications.

Bill B.
Norman, OK

[Scott L]

I think NAFA ought to ignore the concerns of falconers like Hawkstir at their own peril. I had the same issue with them and what people don't seem to understand is that it's more than the two signatures -it's their way of thinking. There is no way a group that purports to represent a constituency of a mere 4000 falconers should be functioning like a government bureaucracy. Folks can scold people who deign criticize NAFA but let me know how that works out for you long term.

[FredFogg]

I wish I could speak from experience with regards to NAFA. I have been away from falconry for a number of years, I was a NAFA member back in the early and mid 90's. When I took up falconry again a few years ago I was excited to find the wealth of information on sites like this one, and what I found was more than a few people bitter and upset with NAFA. I'm sure there are threads on this very site about it, there certainly are on the IFF site. I was even more excited when I heard the Feds were re-writing the falconry regulations, heck from a legislative aspect it was the most exciting thing to happen to falconry in the US in decades and yet NAFA lost membership during this time, call it attrition or whatever you want. The fact is during this critical point in American falconry many people chose not to give a measly $35 to NAFA, it was enough to give me pause before joining NAFA again. It is this fact that is enough for me to say with some degree of confidence that the falconry community does not see NAFA as a political or legislative organization in the United States, or if they do they do not see NAFA's political objectives as aligned with their own.

Randy, the problem is that you and others are making a decision about joining NAFA based on a 2 year period when NAFA was arguably at its worst. To put it point blank, they were afraid of being taken over by another organization that was starting up (WRTC), which as we all know turned out not to be, but during that time they did some really stupid things. There is no denying that. And during that period they did lose a lot of members because of it. But don't judge NAFA for what happened then or even in the past, think about what NAFA can do for the future and what you, as a falconer can do to help falconry. If you don't want to be part of NAFA or any falconry organization, that is your decision and I respect you for it, but all falconers need to unite and fight for our sport. And I hope you and every other falconer will think about that and help unite with the rest of us. I am a member of my state club, the AFC, and NAFA. I feel that all of them can help with the legislation of falconry and I want to have a say in what is decided. Do you?

[Eragon]

I'd just like to point out that the WRTC period is all some of us have to judge NAFA with. Not all of us have been around since before then and seen NAFA in its better days.

[Eagle Owl]

I'd just like to point out that the WRTC period is all some of us have to judge NAFA with. Not all of us have been around since before then and seen NAFA in its better days.

But surely you can see that NAFA is making strides to make things better? There has been a changing of the guard, they have listened to members by upgrading their website and implementing a forum where members can chat, voice opinions, etc. That alone should help you to make an informed decision to join NAFA. As I have said before. If you see changes you want made, best to be part of the solution rather than wait until everything is fixed and then jump on the bandwagon. Besides, you will never 100% agree with what NAFA does. There is just no way that an organization is going to please everyone all the time. Just my 2 cents!;)

[Eragon]

That's why I'm joining! Things are definately moving in the right direction. I just didn't want to associate with some of the stuff coming from NAFA leadership (expecially about WRTC). Since I couldn't vote, I figured it would be better to wait anyways.

One thing I would like to see is a change in what constitutes a Regular Member of NAFA. Now, according to the application, you have to be over 18 and a falconer. I think anyone with a falconry license should be able to be a Regular, voting, member. Especially since the Feds and many states lowered the license requirement age to 12. It isn't really fair to say that they can be a falconer and an Associate member but not vote because they aren't old enough. I know a couple falconers that are younger than I am, but have 2 or 3 years more experiance than me!

What is the reason they decided on 18?

[Eagle Owl]

That's why I'm joining! Things are definately moving in the right direction. I just didn't want to associate with some of the stuff coming from NAFA leadership (expecially about WRTC). Since I couldn't vote, I figured it would be better to wait anyways.

One thing I would like to see is a change in what constitutes a Regular Member of NAFA. Now, according to the application, you have to be over 18 and a falconer. I think anyone with a falconry license should be able to be a Regular, voting, member. Especially since the Feds and many states lowered the license requirement age to 12. It isn't really fair to say that they can be a falconer and an Associate member but not vote because they aren't old enough. I know a couple falconers that are younger than I am, but have 2 or 3 years more experiance than me!

What is the reason they decided on 18?

I would rather the voting be left to licensed falconers as well. But since that has to pass by a vote of the members, it is hard to get that one passed. frus) As for the voting age being 18, I personally feel that is justified. No offense to you, but at 12, 13, etc, years old, do you really know what issues are important and can you really make an informed decision to vote on policies? I personally do not think so. That is also why the voting age for any US election is 18. But, that is just my opinion and something you can definitely bring up to your director when you do become a member. ;)

[Eragon]

I heard that members only voting had passed?

Well, I figure that any kid that is responsible enough to be a falconer is probably responsible enough to vote on things that affect them. I know that I wasn't magically wiser and more interested on my 18th birthday! And, they are probably sponsored by a parent or someone who is very involved that could discuss it with them. I think that if they are interested enough to vote, they will learn about the issues more before they do. Maybe I’m just an optimist! Haha!

[Eagle Owl]

I heard that members only voting had passed?

Well, I figure that any kid that is responsible enough to be a falconer is probably responsible enough to vote on things that affect them. I know that I wasn't magically wiser and more interested on my 18th birthday! And, they are probably sponsored by a parent or someone who is very involved that could discuss it with them. I think that if they are interested enough to vote, they will learn about the issues more before they do. Maybe I’m just an optimist! Haha!

It may have passed. I don't remember! crazyy Been too long ago for my old mind to remember! As for voting age being lowered, I know that at 12 years old I could not comprehend policy and such to make an informed decision and vote. And yes, parents should be helping their kids make good, informed decisions, but there is a big difference in a child practicing falconry and comprehending that and comprehending what policy change is best for the continuation of falconry. Again, it is just my personal opinion.

[Eragon]

I know what you mean. 12 is probably too young, but I think 18 is still too old. Somewhere in between is probably best.

[Eagle Owl]

I know what you mean. 12 is probably too young, but I think 18 is still too old. Somewhere in between is probably best.

I could compromise at 16. LOL:D

[Eragon]

I could agree! beeer

[everetkhorton]

Should NAFA expand it's meets and other social opportunities or should NAFA focus more on legislation like being able to import exotic birds more easily? Looking from the outside in at NAFA it looks like it tries to be a lot of different things, maybe too many things for an organization it's size. Is NAFA a social club, a political organization, a conservation group, a scientific research fund, a publisher or a little bit of everything? Back in 1961 it made sense for NAFA to try to be all of these things, there wasn't anything else for falconers in North America. If I were to look into my crystal ball though, in 10-20 years I don't see a bright future for NAFA if it continues to try and do all these things in a mediocre manner.

The problem I see with NAFA is it's starting to get squeezed from several sides. We have sites like NAFEX providing social opportunities and chances to meet other falconers, people are even planning field meets on here and this site is free to join. Then on the political side there is the American Falconry Conservancy which has a very clear mission statement and is very focused on the legislative and legal aspects of the sport. NAFA's publications are getting more competition all the time too, falconers have access to more information now than at any point in history.

It's interesting that people seem most interested in more field meets from NAFA, and yet there's no mention of field meets or anything really having to do with social events in NAFA's mission statement. Would it be so bad if NAFA became nothing but a social club and focused it's efforts on providing a bunch of excellent meets and social events every year? I would think the falconry community would rally around such an organization. An organization pulled in 50 different directions on the other hand, it's hard to get excited about that in my opinion and it's even harder to get excited about giving such an organization $35 a year.


Randy:
I think NAFA's number one priority is "Keeping Falconry a legal Field Sport in the U.S." Once you have attended a few NAFA meet, you make new friends. You hawk together, party and eat together. If you want to call that a social club so be it. I find it very easy to pay $35.00 dollars for the insurance that NAFA is provides me. I do not want to hear any BS about how hare it is for some to come up with $35.00. A field meet is a field meet. Everyone want NAFA to have regional meet. Why, Why not two or three State Club put on a meet. Go to meet near where you live. NAFA is not spending money out of your dues for field meets. If the NAFA meet put money in the coffer, so be it. That help keep your dues down. JMO

[Flatwater Falconer]

In order for folks to help make NAFA a better organization, let's list things we would like to see changed within NAFA or things we would like to see NAFA do that they are not currently doing. Let's not ramble about general things, if you can't be specific about a topic, don't say anything. . .


NAFA can't make changes if the members don't let them know what needs to be changed. NAFA can't start doing something they never did before if members don't ask for it. So let them know what you think and maybe some good ideas will come out of this and with several NAFA directors on here, they can put things in motion. . .



Please note that while this forum is a fantastic place to exchange ideas and develop them, contacting your regional director and one or both Directors-at-large is the main way to get these ideas added to an agenda and discussed by your elected decision makers.

Please don't let your ideas appear only on this forum.

Step up and take action by speaking with your directors [as was touched on above]. This is one privelege of membership in our Association.

Warm regards,

[Hawkmom]

When NAFA and Falconers went through the hell of Operation Falcon in the mid-1980's I was SE director. One of the hardest decisions we directors had to make was to dismiss NAFA member falconers who had plead guilty or no contest to charges they had (most charges were trumped up paperwork stuff, but the majority individuals were so scared of the Feds that they pled no contest to avoid the legal fees of defending themselves). This was to keep the NAFA image 'clean' during the horrendous publicity that USFWS LE had released. We did allow falconers to re-join NAFA after their sentencing was over. NAFA did decide to help defend one falconer (Blll Oar) where the feds confiscated an unbanded female Gyr off her eggs in the raid. The plastic band she was wearing fell off during breeding season. (This was all prior to the seamless band system in place now). BTW: The bird DIED in USFWS custody. Along with over majority over 100 other birds confiscated and placed in Jeff McPartlins care. We were all outraged by these callus acts by the USFWS LE. They did things like block videotaping /recording of the arrests/inspections, etc. Interrogate falconer/breeders for HOURS (6-8 hour long audits of records) trying to trip them up through confusing them or intimidation.

You did not know that the longest running Hawk Chalk Editor Will Shor was an absolutely brilliant and kind man. He had collected data, records, anecdotes, polled NAFA members about the whole Op Fal situation. He could recall facts and figures off the top of his head. He was our greatest ally in this terrible time. Because of the selfless work and meticulous record keeping, he started the groundswell against the case that USFWS had brought forward to shame and damage American Falconry. Read the old Hawk Chalks from that era. You will see what I mean. There are few like him today. I hope that such an ally comes forward when we need them again.

That is why I'm a NAFA member.

[everetkhorton]

Kitty:
Will was one of a kind, in and outside of falconry. Ran every morning and love to fly fish with his wife of many years, was also a bander. Very soft spoken.

[Hawkmom]

I just don't have access to the old Hawk Chalks but I think it was Jack and Connie Oar who had the white gyr confiscated off her eggs. He was the falconer who camped in a teepee at the NAFA meets in the 1980's. Sorry for the name confusion.

We need those HC's on the net as an archives or as a CD so we may see our history. Very important.

[Tony James]

When NAFA and Falconers went through the hell of Operation Falcon in the mid-1980's I was SE director. One of the hardest decisions we directors had to make was to dismiss NAFA member falconers who had plead guilty or no contest to charges they had (most charges were trumped up paperwork stuff, but the majority individuals were so scared of the Feds that they pled no contest to avoid the legal fees of defending themselves). This was to keep the NAFA image 'clean' during the horrendous publicity that USFWS LE had released. We did allow falconers to re-join NAFA after their sentencing was over. NAFA did decide to help defend one falconer (Blll Oar) where the feds confiscated an unbanded female Gyr off her eggs in the raid. The plastic band she was wearing fell off during breeding season. (This was all prior to the seamless band system in place now). BTW: The bird DIED in USFWS custody. Along with over majority over 100 other birds confiscated and placed in Jeff McPartlins care. We were all outraged by these callus acts by the USFWS LE. They did things like block videotaping /recording of the arrests/inspections, etc. Interrogate falconer/breeders for HOURS (6-8 hour long audits of records) trying to trip them up through confusing them or intimidation.

You did not know that the longest running Hawk Chalk Editor Will Shor was an absolutely brilliant and kind man. He had collected data, records, anecdotes, polled NAFA members about the whole Op Fal situation. He could recall facts and figures off the top of his head. He was our greatest ally in this terrible time. Because of the selfless work and meticulous record keeping, he started the groundswell against the case that USFWS had brought forward to shame and damage American Falconry. Read the old Hawk Chalks from that era. You will see what I mean. There are few like him today. I hope that such an ally comes forward when we need them again.

That is why I'm a NAFA member.

Hi Kitty,

I'm aware that I've already said much more than I should with regard to your falconry half a world away, but I can't help replying with admiration to your message, which will resonate with anyone of similar experience.

Fighting for falconry is not a continual war, but rather a series of battles punctuated by long periods of watchful inactivity --- and of course, it is when the fighting starts that falconers need their 'Will Shor'. 'Cometh the hour, cometh the man' as they say, and falconry worldwide has been fortunate to have had those kind of people when it really mattered.

NAFA in the US, like the BFC in the UK, will always be the training ground for our future Will Shors, and if for no other reason deserve our support.

It is all too easy to dismiss the achievements of those who fought battles for us in the past, but without their efforts our opportunities would today be very different (and of course, the unassuming nature of those who have truly made a difference has led to most people being unaware of their contribution).

I love that you have highlighted the contribution of an unsung hero, and am confident that such an ally will step forward when circumstances demand.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[joekoz]

Although neither of them may realize it PM’s I received from both Ron Clark and Donna (Flatwater Falconer) in response to comments I made in a previous thread regarding NAFA caused me to rethink my position and re-join NAFA.

When I sorted it all out in my mind, the bottom line for me became very clear.

We as Falconers need a VOICE working to protect our interests. More then worth the $35.00 annual dues fee.

[Eagle Owl]

We as Falconers need a VOICE working to protect our interests. More then worth the $35.00 annual dues fee.

clapp clapp clapp

[hawkstir]

I think NAFA ought to ignore the concerns of falconers like Hawkstir at their own peril. I had the same issue with them and what people don't seem to understand is that it's more than the two signatures -it's their way of thinking. There is no way a group that purports to represent a constituency of a mere 4000 falconers should be functioning like a government bureaucracy. Folks can scold people who deign criticize NAFA but let me know how that works out for you long term.
Scott,
I don't understand what your saying.

Just for the record. I wasn't trying to discredit or bash NAFA in any way. I was just making a comment in regard to the subject of the thread. I believe NAFA or similar, is important to the falconry community. I also want to thank those who offered to sign my application. I'll work some magic and get it moving forward.

[Flatwater Falconer]

. . .

You did not know that the longest running Hawk Chalk Editor Will Shor was an absolutely brilliant and kind man. He had collected data, records, anecdotes, polled NAFA members about the whole Op Fal situation. He could recall facts and figures off the top of his head. He was our greatest ally in this terrible time. Because of the selfless work and meticulous record keeping, he started the groundswell against the case that USFWS had brought forward to shame and damage American Falconry. Read the old Hawk Chalks from that era. You will see what I mean. There are few like him today. I hope that such an ally comes forward when we need them again.

That is why I'm a NAFA member.

Wow Kitty thanks for sharing that history. Looking back one tends to forget that huge problems were dealt with then just as we face things now. Somehow loking back at 'the good old days' it's easy to assume everything was rosy all the time.

Reading about some success gives me hope that when we face a similar challenge that we will be able to stand up and survive it.

[Flatwater Falconer]

. . .

When I sorted it all out in my mind, the bottom line for me became very clear.

We as Falconers need a VOICE working to protect our interests. More then worth the $35.00 annual dues fee.

Perfectly well stated! And thanks for letting us know about your decision. Welcome!

Warm regards,

[Scott L]

Hawkstir, I'm not going to beat a dead horse. You called attention to the two signature issue, it appeared people tried pooh pooh your concern. I piped in because I believe it is a valid complaint. When it comes to licensed falconers the two signatures that matter the most have already been signed (your sponsor, and your Department of Natural Resources specialist). This is not a criticism of the raison d'etre of NAFA, but of a particular way of doing things that just makes no sense. It is self-defeating if it even costs them one falconer's lifetime of annual dues. That is all I have to say on the matter.

[Dirthawking]

Hawkstir, I'm not going to beat a dead horse.

http://www.freewebby.com/action-smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif

[rmayes100]

You guys have all made a strong argument, my $35 is on the way as well (besides I kind of miss the Hawk Chalks). As others have said the future of falconry is more important to me than any inefficiencies I see in NAFA.



Although neither of them may realize it PM’s I received from both Ron Clark and Donna (Flatwater Falconer) in response to comments I made in a previous thread regarding NAFA caused me to rethink my position and re-join NAFA.

When I sorted it all out in my mind, the bottom line for me became very clear.

We as Falconers need a VOICE working to protect our interests. More then worth the $35.00 annual dues fee.

[MrBill]

Everet wrotes:

"I think NAFA's number one priority is "Keeping Falconry a legal Field Sport in the U.S."

NAFA's website says, "The North American Falconers Association was founded in 1961 to encourage the proper practice of the sport of falconry and the wise use and conservation of birds of prey."

Actually, Ev, when NAFA was founded falconry was not a legal field sport; that came with regulations about 15 years later. But, I agree with you, keeping falconry from being regulated out of existence should be NAFA's primary focus; and, this is what we should be paying our dues for. Yet, we want more than that for our $35.00. I'm not sure NAFA can feasibly deliver much more than being a good watchdog for us, and a field meet each year. Remember, this is an all-volunteer organization with a little more than 1000 US members. You can't get blood out of a turnip. So, the way I look at it is, I blow more than $35.00 when I got out to dinner with someone. Belonging to NAFA has got to be worth at least that much.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[everetkhorton]

Everet wrotes:

"I think NAFA's number one priority is "Keeping Falconry a legal Field Sport in the U.S."

NAFA's website says, "The North American Falconers Association was founded in 1961 to encourage the proper practice of the sport of falconry and the wise use and conservation of birds of prey."

Actually, Ev, when NAFA was founded falconry was not a legal field sport; that came with regulations about 15 years later. But, I agree with you, keeping falconry from being regulated out of existence should be NAFA's primary focus; and, this is what we should be paying our dues for. Yet, we want more than that for our $35.00. I'm not sure NAFA can feasibly deliver much more than being a good watchdog for us, and a field meet each year. Remember, this is an all-volunteer organization with a little more than 1000 US members. You can't get blood out of a turnip. So, the way I look at it is, I blow more than $35.00 when I got out to dinner with someone. Belonging to NAFA has got to be worth at least that much.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Bill:
You are 100% right, I am not sure when this goal was set but I have talked to several director over the years and they have made this statement. Is this goal set in stone, who knows. But I hope it is.

[Hawkmom]

NAFA is small, effective and respected in the wildlife conservation circles. That is because of the intense dedication of those who work to keep falconry legal, and accessible to everyone. Science based management is the key. We have lots to work be thankful for through NAFA, even though it is not shown. NAFA needs to put together a 'benefits for you' page, showing how NAFA has been successful in providing some of the best falconry in the world. What's it is for me? as a potential member.

[Lowachi]

http://www.freewebby.com/action-smilies/beat_deadhorse.gif

Better than spankin' the monkeytoungeout couldn't resist....sorry;)

[MrBill]

Donna,

Acting on your continual suggestions to contact the NAFA leadership with our suggestions, I sent the following e-mail to the President, VP, and all the directors:

Hi Folks,

"As a way to make an increase in membership dues more palatable for all concerned and/or a way to generate some additional revenue, I would propose that you consider making periodic webinars available to the membership. They could cover a wide variety of topics of interest to the falconry community. And, as you know, webinars are easy to set up and available to everyone who has a computer and a telephone. Just a thought."

Only two people responded--the president and my director (as you might expect). I was disappointed, not because they didn't find my suggestion worthwhile, but because they didn't even acknowledge it; this is the type of stuff that turned a lot of people against NAFA previously. I hope I'm not wrong in my estimation about NAFA turning over a new leaf.

Bill B.
Norman, OK

[Flatwater Falconer]

Hi Bill,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. You state you received TWO responses to your email and in the same paragraph state that you didn't get any response at all:


. . . Only two people responded--the president and my director (as you might expect). I was disappointed, not because they didn't find my suggestion worthwhile, but because they didn't even acknowledge it . . . "

Two replies sounds like 2 responses to me. Please clarify if you would.

I don't know exactly what a webinar is. Got invited to one a month ago. When I logged on got a message that the spaces were taken - so many responses there was no room for any more - so I missed the oppty to learn how they work.

Your idea sounds pretty good to me. Why don't you telephone your director and provide more info and also ask what their take on the idea is? You still have two DALs you can contact as well.

Let me know how it goes. If you feel strongly that it would be of benefit to the Association then sell the idea to someone on the board and it could happen. We have the talent to do it - do we have the need?

All the best,

[Flatwater Falconer]

This has been pitched by board members many times over the years. Once while I've been a director, I think it was Rob Sulski that pitched it and I fully support the idea. But it's always been voted down.

I think it would be a fantastic way to increase membership by making NAFA more relevant on a local level. This was even pitched at our Strategic Planning meeting at the NAFA meet.

I hope we'll get enough directors to support this one of these days and I suspect as more open minded directors are elected this will become a reality one of these days.

Well what are the objections Eric? Why don't we see if we can figure out how to take steps to make this happen? What are the main roadblocks?

[Flatwater Falconer]

I am not currently a NAFA member - I resigned as a protest two years ago - and I wouldnt be invited because NAFA is rather snobby that way with their functions.

Geoff - I'm not snobby I promise ya. ;)

[MrBill]

Donna,

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my e-mail . . . . either that, or you were trying to make a point. I suspect it was more the latter :-)

I have alreay decided to pursue this idea further with the NAFA leadership, which will entail me braking it down to them a little more. Also, it is not whether we have "the need," it's whether or not it would be of value to the membership. I happen to think it would be. But, the the point that was brought home to me (by my director) was that NAFA is a volunteer organization and that the people who are doing the work have other priorities as well (my words). I can't argue with that, but, like I told him, if that's the case then it is not "suggestions" that NAFA should be looking for, but, more people to "volunteer." Anyway, I'll keep you appriased of my furture efforts in this area.

BTW, I told everone that you were doing a great job here, encouraging folks to contact the NAFA leadership with their suggestions, but, again it may not be suggestions that they need, if it is going to require more work, regardless of how much talent we have.

Bill B.
Norman, OK

[Lowachi]

I just don't have access to the old Hawk Chalks but I think it was Jack and Connie Oar who had the white gyr confiscated off her eggs. He was the falconer who camped in a teepee at the NAFA meets in the 1980's. Sorry for the name confusion.

We need those HC's on the net as an archives or as a CD so we may see our history. Very important.

Kitty, it was a peregrine that was confiscated & she died in custody

[Flatwater Falconer]

Hi Bill,

Keep talking to directors absolutely. Would you be interested perhaps in really digging in and putting together some sort of plan, statistics, list, or something to give substance to the idea?

Regional meets would be fun. The big event in November might see slightly lowered attendance but if everyone kept in touch regionally it wouldn't probably be a big deal. I'm sure I'd miss seeing some folks though who went to the regional and not the main meet. That would be a loss for me for certain.

Keep in touch Bill,

[FredFogg]

Donna,

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my e-mail . . . . either that, or you were trying to make a point. I suspect it was more the latter :-)

I have alreay decided to pursue this idea further with the NAFA leadership, which will entail me braking it down to them a little more. Also, it is not whether we have "the need," it's whether or not it would be of value to the membership. I happen to think it would be. But, the the point that was brought home to me (by my director) was that NAFA is a volunteer organization and that the people who are doing the work have other priorities as well (my words). I can't argue with that, but, like I told him, if that's the case then it is not "suggestions" that NAFA should be looking for, but, more people to "volunteer." Anyway, I'll keep you appriased of my furture efforts in this area.

BTW, I told everone that you were doing a great job here, encouraging folks to contact the NAFA leadership with their suggestions, but, again it may not be suggestions that they need, if it is going to require more work, regardless of how much talent we have.

Bill B.
Norman, OK

Bill, I am interested in how you think NAFA should use Webinars? I can see them being used for a How To type situation but they are basically a conference call with a camera and I don't see where NAFA folks need to see each other to discuss things. Personally, I have seen some of those folks, I don't need to see their face when if I were discussing things! LOL :D Enlighten us?

[MrBill]

Fred,

I don't mean to insult you at all, but, I have a sense that you are not that familiar with webinars and their potential. Hang in there. I'm putting something together for the NAFA leadership, and I'll be sure to include you when I send it on. At this point, I don 't see it amounting to any more work for you, or anyone, for that matter. However, it will not be free, and while the cost will be minimal, my latest suggestion to allocate X number of free rooms at the meet to those who can demonstrate to their directors a real need for assistance, resulted in me being told that the club cannot afford it. So, who knows what will happen to my suggestion, even if the leadership sees value in webinars for the membership.

BTW, the reason for this second recommendation was because so many members are never able to attend a NAFA meet due to the cost, particularly in this economy, and particularly if they live any distance away. What has happened is the NAFA meet has been more for the solidly middle class and above. I would like to see attendance become more catholic in nature. We have a lot of members who are eeking by financially, but, would like to attend at least one meet. I, for one, would like to see them get there.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[FredFogg]

Fred,

I don't mean to insult you at all, but, I have a sense that you are not that familiar with webinars and their potential. Hang in there. I'm putting something together for the NAFA leadership, and I'll be sure to include you when I send it on. At this point, I don 't see it amounting to any more work for you, or anyone, for that matter. However, it will not be free, and while the cost will be minimal, my latest suggestion to allocate X number of free rooms at the meet to those who can demonstrate to their directors a real need for assistance, resulted in me being told that the club cannot afford it. So, who knows what will happen to my suggestion, even if the leadership sees value in webinars for the membership.

BTW, the reason for this second recommendation was because so many members are never able to attend a NAFA meet due to the cost, particularly in this economy, and particularly if they live any distance away. What has happened is the NAFA meet has been more for the solidly middle class and above. I would like to see attendance become more catholic in nature. We have a lot of members who are eeking by financially, but, would like to attend at least one meet. I, for one, would like to see them get there.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

You didn't insult me Bill, sorry if my post made you think so! I am just curious to how you think a webinar can be used to help NAFA. I look forward to seeing what you have to persent to NAFA. In the mean time, can you just give a simple example. I am familar with webinars so I am confused.

[MrBill]

Fred,

If you are satisfied with just hearing what people have to say, then webinars may not be for you. But, for the vast majority of people, seeing something is worth a thousand words; in other words, being able to visualize what someone is talking about makes what they have to say much more meaningful. And, as you evidently know, this is what webinars do. So, if you can accept the validity of what I just said, then you should know the possibilities are huge for the entire membership simply by logging in from any location where they have a telephone and a computer, and this would include Canada, Mexico, and Europe (albeit, the phone conversation would be a bit more costly from those places, but available nontheless). Let your imagination run :-)

Bill B.
Norman, OK

[jal4470]

What I want to see from NAFA and if it is happening please let me know, it is worth more than $35 to me, is work on legalizing quarry. I want to see different species opened up on the federal level. We all know species that are common as dirt that are protected because they are not traditional game species in this country. That I what I want to see from NAFA

[FredFogg]

Fred,

If you are satisfied with just hearing what people have to say, then webinars may not be for you. But, for the vast majority of people, seeing something is worth a thousand words; in other words, being able to visualize what someone is talking about makes what they have to say much more meaningful. And, as you evidently know, this is what webinars do. So, if you can accept the validity of what I just said, then you should know the possibilities are huge for the entire membership simply by logging in from any location where they have a telephone and a computer, and this would include Canada, Mexico, and Europe (albeit, the phone conversation would be a bit more costly from those places, but available nontheless). Let your imagination run :-)

Bill B.
Norman, OK

Sorry Bill, I must not have a very good imagination. I still don't see it applicable to use for NAFA. I need an example and then maybe I will see the light.

[Tony James]

Fred,

If you are satisfied with just hearing what people have to say, then webinars may not be for you. But, for the vast majority of people, seeing something is worth a thousand words; in other words, being able to visualize what someone is talking about makes what they have to say much more meaningful. And, as you evidently know, this is what webinars do. So, if you can accept the validity of what I just said, then you should know the possibilities are huge for the entire membership simply by logging in from any location where they have a telephone and a computer, and this would include Canada, Mexico, and Europe (albeit, the phone conversation would be a bit more costly from those places, but available nontheless). Let your imagination run :-)

Bill B.
Norman, OK

Hi Bill,

I'm a long way away from you in England, and I love that I can get to know some of you through what you write. But I'm not sure I'd want your representative body spending it's money to allow us the pleasure of seeing each other.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[frootdog]

What I want to see from NAFA and if it is happening please let me know, it is worth more than $35 to me, is work on legalizing quarry. I want to see different species opened up on the federal level. We all know species that are common as dirt that are protected because they are not traditional game species in this country. That I what I want to see from NAFA

What species exactly do you have in mind? Most the time when people say this it is some kind of bird. Most birds are protected by the MBTA and that would nearly take and act of god to change. So it's not as easy as it sounds. If I'm off base here please let me know.

[frootdog]

my latest suggestion to allocate X number of free rooms at the meet to those who can demonstrate to their directors a real need for assistance, resulted in me being told that the club cannot afford it.
Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Really? You want NAFA to pay for someone's room because they can't afford it? :eek:OK so in theory say 10 people show a "real need" (in my opinion that and a vacation are not even possible, but hey). OK so 10 people this year for the 5 official days of the meet = $4200 + taxes and fees for the rooms. No freaking way I want NAFA spending over 4 grand for someone to be able to go on vacation. I can't stand the fact that the directors get paid for travel (one way) to the meet. If you can't afford to come to the meet NAFA should not be a charity organization for you (or the officers either). That money is far better spent on other things.

That brings up an excellent point though. What I want to see from NAFA is for them to QUIT paying the officers to come to the meet!

[MrBill]

Hi Tony (and Fred),

It not just about seeing someone; if that were the case, then I agree it wouldn't be worth it. We could use teleconferencing. But let's say that we wanted to compare the the training of the Cooper's hawk with the sparrow hawk. You agreed to share your experiences and techniques in England with the sparrow hawk with the membership and Fred said he would share his experiences with the Cooper's. Now, we could do it via teleconference, and you could take the time to describe verbally your methods, equipment, etc., or you could do it via a webinar which would make it much easier (for obvious reasons) and it would preclude misunderstandings; plus, like I said people (in general) appreciate the visual more so than verbal, particularly in this day and age. I think the membership would appreciate webinars of this nature, particularly if the leadership solicited topics from them. As you know, right now, nothing of this nature is being done--teleconferencing or not.

I have been down this road a number of times before, and, regardless of the merit of a suggestion, or how thing ultimately turned out, what I have found interesting is the initial reaction is mostly negative, rather than positive; in other words, it's not, "Hey this is a good idea, but . . . . ". It always seems to be healthy dose of why the suggestion won't work, or why it is unnecessary, or . . . . I understand the reasons for these type of responses, so no big deal. But, I hope I have provided a sufficient response to your posts, so that this doesn't become a crusade of sorts :-) Plus, keep in mind, if the leadership minds merit in my proposal, it will have to go to the general membership for approval (I think), so you will have an opportunity to vote one way or the other. All is not lost :-)

Take care,

Bill B.
Norman, OK

[MrBill]

Krys,

Your point about cose is well-taken. Like I said before, this was brought to my attention by the president. So, it is pretty much a moot point.

In terms of NAFA reimbursing officers for their travel and rooms, this is not unusual at all for any national organization; in fact, it is fairly standard procedure.

You mention NAFA should be spending money on other things. What are these "other things" (specifically)? Thanks.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[frootdog]

Krys,

ou mention NAFA should be spending money on other things. What are these "other things" (specifically)? Thanks.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

How bout the eagle issue? I have no vested interest in eagles or their take. I think some really incorrigible dirt bags screwed it up for everyone. How about putting some money into legal efforts instead of relying on letter writing campaigns? Use the model that AFC has proved effective and put greater cash reserves into it.

Or since money is tight (reason for proposed dues increase) funnel that money (the rediculous amount they spend on officer travel) back into the club. In 2008 (the last published treasures report I can find April '09 HC) NAFA spent $9500 on "travel". WTF? Nearly 10 grand! Before the officers voted to give themselves money they paid thier own way like everyone else. It is part of the requirement that they attend the meet for the business meetings, soooo if you can't go then don't volunteer for the job. OR if they can't afford to go to the meet what a great opportunity to use your webinars.:D I'm sure the club could foot the bill since travel reimbursment would no longer be needed.

Also not all directors accept that money and I applaud those that do not!clapp

[ericedw]

Before the officers voted to give themselves money they paid thier own way like everyone else. It is part of the requirement that they attend the meet for the business meetings, soooo if you can't go then don't volunteer for the job. OR if they can't afford to go to the meet what a great opportunity to use your webinars. I'm sure the club could foot the bill since travel reimbursment would no longer be needed.

Also not all directors accept that money and I applaud those that do not!

I personally, have never asked for, or received, a single penny for travel reimbursement. I was going to NAFA meets long before I was a director and will probably be going long afterwards.

However, I do not agree that being a director or officer should only be reserved for those that can afford the travel expense. NAFA should reimburse officers for travel. Being able to afford travel should not be a prerequisite for being a NAFA officer.

Webinars or phone calls are a fine idea but the board is required to meet "in person" once per year. And the board should meet in person at least once per year.

[frootdog]

Webinars or phone calls are a fine idea but the board is required to meet "in person" once per year. And the board should meet in person at least once per year.

In person is a nice idea yet technology has caught up with us. Those "rules" were drafted long before the computer technology was available to have "face to face" meetings. Furthermore years and years if not decades went buy and the board managed just fine without getting paid. Like I said it's part of the "job" description. If you cant do the job don't apply. That philosophy worked for years. However archaic rules should be revisited when warranted.

[goshawks00]

I think a common commercial rate of so many cents a mile is more than just for compensation for any elected, (not appointed or volunteer) official as numeration to represent us at any NAFA meet... once there they live as high on the hog as their own wallet allows ...In fact I'd take it further and make that standard payable rate available for any director within it's jurisdiction so they can attend 'their members' events. Obviously to be paid for my the state association.

BTW less it's forgotten our president IS NOT an elected official, and until NAFA's membership is served...( how long has that horse been beaten?) they should not be receiving any enumeration.

[ericedw]

Plus, keep in mind, if the leadership minds merit in my proposal, it will have to go to the general membership for approval (I think), so you will have an opportunity to vote one way or the other. All is not lost :-)


Bill,
This is not something that would go to the membership neccessarily. The board has the ability to approve such an expenditure and make this happen. But from what I've seen you have not provided enough detail for anyone to make a decision. As with most proposals it usually comes down to $$$$.

Another avenue might be to apply for funding through the small grants program with NAFA. You can organize the event, host it and have NAFA fund it. How much would you need?

I also think what you're talking about could just as easily be done as static videos. A bit of a "how-to" series. MUCH cheaper to do and would have a long shelf life.

[FredFogg]

Hi Tony (and Fred),

It not just about seeing someone; if that were the case, then I agree it wouldn't be worth it. We could use teleconferencing. But let's say that we wanted to compare the the training of the Cooper's hawk with the sparrow hawk. You agreed to share your experiences and techniques in England with the sparrow hawk with the membership and Fred said he would share his experiences with the Cooper's. Now, we could do it via teleconference, and you could take the time to describe verbally your methods, equipment, etc., or you could do it via a webinar which would make it much easier (for obvious reasons) and it would preclude misunderstandings; plus, like I said people (in general) appreciate the visual more so than verbal, particularly in this day and age. I think the membership would appreciate webinars of this nature, particularly if the leadership solicited topics from them. As you know, right now, nothing of this nature is being done--teleconferencing or not.

I have been down this road a number of times before, and, regardless of the merit of a suggestion, or how thing ultimately turned out, what I have found interesting is the initial reaction is mostly negative, rather than positive; in other words, it's not, "Hey this is a good idea, but . . . . ". It always seems to be healthy dose of why the suggestion won't work, or why it is unnecessary, or . . . . I understand the reasons for these type of responses, so no big deal. But, I hope I have provided a sufficient response to your posts, so that this doesn't become a crusade of sorts :-) Plus, keep in mind, if the leadership minds merit in my proposal, it will have to go to the general membership for approval (I think), so you will have an opportunity to vote one way or the other. All is not lost :-)

Take care,

Bill B.
Norman, OK

Bill,

Sorry, I just disagree! I don't see where when someone has an idea, everyone is supposed to jump up and down and say Hey, great idea, when it isn't. I think honesty is the best policy and I am sorry if you find honesty to be negative, I respect honesty.

I think webinars are great for How To's and/or Comparison type situations and that is basically what you described above but I think right now, at this point, NAFA has better things to spend money on (like Krys said, the eagle issue). Sure, someday down the road, it would be really cool for NAFA to announce a webinar and folks to log on and watch and participate, but just not now. Just my humble opinion, others may disagree. Let the masses speak! :D

[ericedw]

In person is a nice idea yet technology has caught up with us. Those "rules" were drafted long before the computer technology was available to have "face to face" meetings. Furthermore years and years if not decades went buy and the board managed just fine without getting paid. Like I said it's part of the "job" description. If you cant do the job don't apply. That philosophy worked for years. However archaic rules should be revisited when warranted.

When exactly do you think this policy started? I think NAFA officers have been reimbursed for travel for a very long time.

And I disagree about not having face to face meetings. Phone calls and even webinars are very impersonal and usually very limited on time. The members can certainly make this change, you just need to change the bylaws.

[Saluqi]

I believe that NAFA will only reimburse directors for travel, based on Mapquest calculated mileage, for ONE way to the NAFA meet at a rate of $.36/mile. The current US government rate is $.50/mile.

[frootdog]

When exactly do you think this policy started? I think NAFA officers have been reimbursed for travel for a very long time.

I researched this a 3 or 4 years ago and it had been a very recent board decision (so I would say within the last 5 - 7 years). I would have to search again for the info (if it's even still available) and get back to you.

Is that indeed a bylaw Eric? Honest question have not researched it.

[ericedw]

I researched this a 3 or 4 years ago and it had been a very recent board decision (so I would say within the last 5 - 7 years). I would have to search again for the info (if it's even still available) and get back to you.

Is that indeed a bylaw Eric? Honest question have not researched it.

I can't say for certain when reimbursements for directors started but I could find out. But, I think it was long before 5-7 years. You may have found reference to a change in how they were reimbursed. I think at one time directors submitted receipts and were reimbursed, and then they went to a per mile standard.

It's not a bylaw but is NAFA policy.

[Ron Clarke]

"Eighty percent of success is showing up," according to Woody Allen. He certainly didn't have a NAFA board meeting in mind when he said that, but it applies. There is nothing like a face-to-face meeting. Think about how many times you've seen participants on this forum apologizing for ruffling someone's feathers, but then, no, people weren't offended or insulted, and then we apologize for the apology, and on and on. Participants on an electronic forum can't see the body language and other subtle cues we rely on to facilitate direct communication, and we are easily sidetracked and distracted by misinterpretation. In-person discussions are more productive, not to mention more civil and a positive force for strengthening the working relationships of the team that leads the organization. Surely, teleconferences and webinars can make positive contributions, and NAFA ought to avail itself of technological advancements to serve its members. But the board needs to get together face-to-face at least once a year.

[Joby]

Sorry, I just disagree! I don't see where when someone has an idea, everyone is supposed to jump up and down and say Hey, great idea, when it isn't. I think honesty is the best policy and I am sorry if you find honesty to be negative, I respect honesty.

I think webinars are great for How To's and/or Comparison type situations and that is basically what you described above but I think right now, at this point, NAFA has better things to spend money on (like Krys said, the eagle issue). Sure, someday down the road, it would be really cool for NAFA to announce a webinar and folks to log on and watch and participate, but just not now. Just my humble opinion, others may disagree. Let the masses speak! :D

I think the use of technology is a GREAT way to cut down on the cost of travel. I have used webinars EXTENSIVELY as an adult educator and find them very helpful for a lot of things, including meeting style presentations. I think with some tweeks, the webinar would be an interesting way for the board to meet, while having the constituency listening in and at the end having an opportunity to ask some questions.
-Joe

[MrBill]

Geez, Fred, I wasn't suggest that everyone was supposed to agree with suggestions. I'm not sure where you got this idea. I was simply saying that the initial response to recommendations (be they mine or someone elses) are generally negative, rather than positive; that's been my experience, and I've been around long enough to have plenty of it :-)

Bill B.
Norman, OK

[MrBill]

Krys,

I have to agree with Eric--NAFA Directors have been comped expenses for a long time; this is nothing new.

Also, your contention that if a person can't afford to attend the NAFA meet then they shouldn't run for office would eliminate a number of good candidates; and, let's face it, we have enough trouble getting people to run, particularly those that could make a difference.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[ericedw]

I think the use of technology is a GREAT way to cut down on the cost of travel. I have used webinars EXTENSIVELY as an adult educator and find them very helpful for a lot of things, including meeting style presentations. I think with some tweeks, the webinar would be an interesting way for the board to meet, while having the constituency listening in and at the end having an opportunity to ask some questions.
-Joe

Apples and oranges here. I too participate in 3 or 4 webinars per week for various types of training and product presentations. It might be an okay replacement for our telephonic board meetings but the least any organization can do is put all of their board members together in a room at least one per year.

The board has been down right uncivil to one another in the past and I think much of this is due to our impersonal communications. Most of us don't even know one another and we're expected to work together to run a multi-national falconry organization.

All this talk of webinars I still have not seen anyone throw out a cost for this service. I looked at Webex's website and their basic service only allows 25 connections for $49. Their upgraded services ask to call for a price but I'd suspect 1,000 connections or more would be in excess of $500 per month ($6,000 per year). Everyone okay with that expense?

[MrBill]

Eric writes:

>But from what I've seen you have not provided enough detail for anyone to make a decision.

Man, Eric, I'm not sure why you are broaching this again here, since I have already given you my response to an e-mail you sent. Frankly, I don't want to take the time to regurgitate what I told you earlier.

Also, static videos do not allow interaction, which is very important (IMO).

In terms of webinars--they are used extensively these days, whether folks like the idea or not. Seriously, they are now a big part of doing business in today's society. Simply put, teleconferences are passee, at least by those organizations that are trying to stay ahead of the power curve and manage their resources more proficiently. Now, you can accept what I have saiid, or not. If you don't fine, but, I'm now struggling to argue the point any longer.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[ericedw]

Man, Eric, I'm not sure why you are broaching this again here, since I have already given you my response to an e-mail you sent. Frankly, I don't want to take the time to regurgitate what I told you earlier.


I replied privately and I got your email but with all of the statements and discussions on the forum I felt it should also be addressed on the forum.

As far as video or webinar, I think it depends on the purpose. If your'e talking about a meeting then sure webinar. If you're talking about a "how to" then I don't see the payoff for spending the extra money for an interactive format.

I also don't know the advantage of a "webinar" for our board meetings. If you're talking about all out video conferencing (where we can all see one another) then we're talking about much more technology than a webinar. A webinar is nothing more than a teleconference with the addition of sharing your computer screen, being about to give a powerpoint presentation. I don't know that we've had many sutiations on a board meeting that would have benefited from a visual presentation.

Now if you're talking about video conferencing then I would guess it would be cost prohibitive, not to mentions the technology each board member would have to have (computers that meet minimum requirements, I had trouble getting everyone on Microsoft Sharepoint).

If the purpose is just so members can participate (or listen in) then adding a few hundred more people to our teleconferences might be the solution, but I don't know the cost of that either.

I'm all for technology if the organization gets a benefit from it but it comes with a cost. And in this discussion there have been all sorts of suggestions for the use of a "webinar".

Don't drop out on us now Bill, if you're serious about the suggestion there are a lot of details to flesh out.

[MrBill]

Eric,

I'm not talking about your director meetings. Someone else brought that up. If you folks are happy with teleconferncing versus webinars, then more power to you.

I must say though, this discussion has become problematic now, because I thought I was clear on here and to you privately about what I was talking about; in fact, I thought the two of us had the same understanding, but, evidently not. Anyway, I struggle to repeat myself, Eric. Sorry.

As for cost, I work for the University of Oklahoma and have involved myself with webinars here, so I have some familiarity with them. I contacted the guy in charge of putting these webinars on to try and find out the cost, but, because this is a university the cost is different than if NAFA was to buy a "license." So, that didn't help. But, I did learn that using a telephone versus Voice Over Internet Protocol (VOIP) costs 6 cents a minute. He didn't particularly care for VOIP, which comes through the Internet. He also told me that you can't beat webinars for conferences, that it is a great deal cheaper than flying people in and paying their lodging and perdeim; plus, he didn't see any problem with not being able to see body-language, etc., but then, perhaps the participants here are more civil in nature than our directors :-) If I find any other pertinent information, I will pass it along.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[Saluqi]

Not that I want to be part of this exchange, but Skype does conferencing. I've never used Skype, but I've heard lots of good things about it and the service is free, not sure if there are any hidden costs.

[Eragon]

Hey Paul,
Only certain parts of Skype are free. I don't think that the conferencing feature is though. I can try and find out.


EDIT

Now that I look, the directors could use skype to video conference with eachother. I found a few free tools for up to 20 people at a time. But I couldn't find one for more than 20 so if the whole membership wanted to be on for a how-to or something like that, it would probably be something that NAFA has to purchase.

[Saluqi]

I knew a techno savy youth should be addressing this question! Thanks Ryan, it might be a worthwhile for the directors meetings.

Ryan, is it clunky, or pretty smooth operations?

[Eragon]

I've never used the Conferencing feature, but I have the personal version of skype. All you need is the free download and a webcam, which is quite cheap. It is a very smooth operation. It took me a little bit to figure out all the controls and everything, but now it is very easy to use.

[Flatwater Falconer]

What I want to see from NAFA and if it is happening please let me know, it is worth more than $35 to me, is work on legalizing quarry. I want to see different species opened up on the federal level. We all know species that are common as dirt that are protected because they are not traditional game species in this country. That I what I want to see from NAFA

Now that's a rather exciting idea! Have you spoken with your director yet?

[MrBill]

Hey Krys,

Paul is right--I just heard from Danny Pickens and it seems that we are all in error (except Paul)--Directors are not reimbursed for their hotel rooms at the NAFA meet, just travel. The president of NAFA confirmed this statement; in fact, he said the board gave up this comp years ago. So, no more worries :-) They only receive .36 cents a mile, one way, which means the $9,500 spent on travel that you mention was not all for the directors. That is a lot of money to be spending on travel though. Are you sure about this?

Bill Boni
Norman, Oklahoma

[Eagle Owl]

Hey Krys,

Paul is right--I just heard from Danny Pickens and it seems that we are all in error (except Paul)--Directors are not reimbursed for their hotel rooms at the NAFA meet, just travel. The president of NAFA confirmed this statement; in fact, he said the board gave up this comp years ago. So, no more worries :-) They only receive .36 cents a mile, one way, which means the $9,500 spent on travel that you mention was not all for the directors. That is a lot of money to be spending on travel though. Are you sure about this?

Bill Boni
Norman, Oklahoma

Bill,

The proposed budget for 2010-2011 allows for travel in various ways:
Board of Directors - $5,500,
Officers - $3,500,
Staff - $2,000,
Legal - $500,
IAF Reps - $1,000,
Conservation Committee - $3,000,
Future Meets Committee - $250.

I can't find what the actual budget for 2009-2010 was, but that is a lot of money to budget for travel! :eek:

[MrBill]

Wow, that is a hell of a lot of money, Brandi, even though they probably don't use anywhere near that much. But, the $9,500 that Krys mentioned having actually been paid out four or five years ago is probably right on.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[frootdog]

Wow, that is a hell of a lot of money, Brandi, even though they probably don't use anywhere near that much. But, the $9,500 that Krys mentioned having actually been paid out four or five years ago is probably right on.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Mine was '08 and that was OVER budget. It was in the 4/09 HC.

[frootdog]

Hey Krys,

Paul is right--I just heard from Danny Pickens and it seems that we are all in error (except Paul)--Directors are not reimbursed for their hotel rooms at the NAFA meet, just travel. The president of NAFA confirmed this statement; in fact, he said the board gave up this comp years ago. So, no more worries :-) They only receive .36 cents a mile, one way, which means the $9,500 spent on travel that you mention was not all for the directors. That is a lot of money to be spending on travel though. Are you sure about this?

Bill Boni
Norman, Oklahoma

Wait a minute. I never said they got free rooms. I fully understand the travel expenses for directors, just not clearly when they started, however no one seems to be able to answer that either.

I would rather they got free rooms. The rooms are freebies from the hotel based on how many rooms are booked for the week. So that has no out of pocket cost to NAFA. I have no problem with comp rooms being distributed that way.

[frootdog]

Wow, that is a hell of a lot of money, Brandi, even though they probably don't use anywhere near that much. But, the $9,500 that Krys mentioned having actually been paid out four or five years ago is probably right on.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

2 years ago. 2008.

[MrBill]

Hey Krys,

Having chaired a NAFA meet and can assure you that the directors do not get, and would not get, any rooms comped by the meet motel; in fact, that was a topic of conversation years ago, and the then directors decided that if there were any comped rooms they should go to those who are putting on the meet, not the directors.

BTW, I apologize for misinterpreting your concerns about travel expenses to include lodging. I don't like going back and searching through the messages to see exactly what someone said when there gets to be a number of pages of messages, so I end up shooting from the hip a bit. My bust! Thanks for calling me on it.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[MrBill]

Hey Randy (and other interested parties),

I got in touch with Skype about their video conferencing capabilities because it sounded like a good deal, and perhaps something that NAFA could use. This is what they said:

"Currently, Skype video conference calls are not supported. Video calls are only possible between two PCs (or Macs) at the moment. We might add support for video for multiple participants in the future."

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[joekoz]

However, I do not agree that being a director or officer should only be reserved for those that can afford the travel expense. NAFA should reimburse officers for travel. Being able to afford travel should not be a prerequisite for being a NAFA officer.



I COULD'NT AGREE MORE.

I have served on a number of Not-For-Profit Board of Directors and have never asked for or accepted any sort of payment for services provided and/or travel. In fact in the case of each my companies have "adopted" these organizations and provided them with a percentage of gross profit to help them fulfill there missions.

My experience is that Boards benefit from having stakeholders from a variety of background. In my opinion it would be a mistake to put a monetary requirement in place, that for the lack of being able to afford it, would prohibit someone willing to volunteer their time and energy form serving on a Board.

[Dirthawking]

Webinars or phone calls are a fine idea but the board is required to meet "in person" once per year. And the board should meet in person at least once per year.

Just as a question, when is the last time the ENTIRE board met in person?

[Flatwater Falconer]

Mario,

We meet in November.

Cheers,

[Dirthawking]

Mario,

We meet in November.

Cheers,


Just as a question, when is the last time the ENTIRE board met in person?

I know when the board meets, that was not the question. The question was, when was the last time the entire board was present? When was the last time every member of the elected positions was there. Has it ever happened in the history of NAFA?

[ericedw]

I know when the board meets, that was not the question. The question was, when was the last time the entire board was present? When was the last time every member of the elected positions was there. Has it ever happened in the history of NAFA?

Mario, I can't speak for the entire history of NAFA but I've never seen everyone at a meeting during my tenure. Most of the board usually shows up but often you see one or two outgoing directors absent.

[Flatwater Falconer]

The entire board . . . Right, I see what you meant Mario.

People do make their best efforts to get to the in-person meetings. Remember, when our by laws were written, there was no inkling of telephone conferences, internet, or other conveniences we take for granted now. The fact that we do have 100% participation quite frequently during teleconferences helps the Association very much.

In the old days the once-per-year meeting was about all they had. The rest of the time it was phone calls one-on-one, or perhaps written and mailed notes or letters.

The technicality of 100% of the board meeting in-person might not happen so often but the gathering of the entire board of directors does in fact occure quite often thanks to modern communications.

[Dirthawking]

The entire board . . . Right, I see what you meant Mario.

People do make their best efforts to get to the in-person meetings. Remember, when our by laws were written, there was no inkling of telephone conferences, internet, or other conveniences we take for granted now. The fact that we do have 100% participation quite frequently during teleconferences helps the Association very much.

In the old days the once-per-year meeting was about all they had. The rest of the time it was phone calls one-on-one, or perhaps written and mailed notes or letters.

The technicality of 100% of the board meeting in-person might not happen so often but the gathering of the entire board of directors does in fact occure quite often thanks to modern communications.

Donna, thank you for the quick run down, but it really did not answer the question at hand. Is there anyway to search the NAFA archives and find out if the entire board has ever met in person?

[Flatwater Falconer]

Hi Mario,

There are several directors and officers working diligently with the Archives to figure a way to make past documents and records available electronically on the web site. It might take some time but it will get done. No one doubts this can be done and needs to be done.

In the mean time some of the old April Hawk Chalks might have a recap of the business meeting held at the field meet. Specifically, who attended and how they voted on various items.

If you're really keen on seeing this there might be a position open for you to volunteer to help make this plan a reality. ;)

Seriously though if a call goes out do you want to help?

[jfseaman]

How bout the eagle issue? I have no vested interest in eagles or their take. I think some really incorrigible dirt bags screwed it up for everyone. How about putting some money into legal efforts instead of relying on letter writing campaigns? Use the model that AFC has proved effective and put greater cash reserves into it.

Or since money is tight (reason for proposed dues increase) funnel that money (the rediculous amount they spend on officer travel) back into the club. In 2008 (the last published treasures report I can find April '09 HC) NAFA spent $9500 on "travel". WTF? Nearly 10 grand! Before the officers voted to give themselves money they paid thier own way like everyone else. It is part of the requirement that they attend the meet for the business meetings, soooo if you can't go then don't volunteer for the job. OR if they can't afford to go to the meet what a great opportunity to use your webinars.:D I'm sure the club could foot the bill since travel reimbursment would no longer be needed.

Also not all directors accept that money and I applaud those that do not!clapp

NAFA started as a volunteer organization. 'Management' paid their own way. IMO we need to return to that model.

[jfseaman]

Hi Tony (and Fred),

It not just about seeing someone; if that were the case, then I agree it wouldn't be worth it. We could use teleconferencing. But let's say that we wanted to compare the the training of the Cooper's hawk with the sparrow hawk. You agreed to share your experiences and techniques in England with the sparrow hawk with the membership and Fred said he would share his experiences with the Cooper's. Now, we could do it via teleconference, and you could take the time to describe verbally your methods, equipment, etc., or you could do it via a webinar which would make it much easier (for obvious reasons) and it would preclude misunderstandings; plus, like I said people (in general) appreciate the visual more so than verbal, particularly in this day and age. I think the membership would appreciate webinars of this nature, particularly if the leadership solicited topics from them. As you know, right now, nothing of this nature is being done--teleconferencing or not.

I have been down this road a number of times before, and, regardless of the merit of a suggestion, or how thing ultimately turned out, what I have found interesting is the initial reaction is mostly negative, rather than positive; in other words, it's not, "Hey this is a good idea, but . . . . ". It always seems to be healthy dose of why the suggestion won't work, or why it is unnecessary, or . . . . I understand the reasons for these type of responses, so no big deal. But, I hope I have provided a sufficient response to your posts, so that this doesn't become a crusade of sorts :-) Plus, keep in mind, if the leadership minds merit in my proposal, it will have to go to the general membership for approval (I think), so you will have an opportunity to vote one way or the other. All is not lost :-)

Take care,

Bill B.
Norman, OK
Bill,

As a DAL candidate, I have to admit, if you send me suggestions, I could very well respond with 'That's a good idea but...'. On the other hand, if you include a plan of implementation with your suggestion, I promise it will raise it with the board.

A suggestion to help the organization that creates more work for volunteers, regardless of how good the idea is, does just that, creates more work. Volunteers have only so much time to devote to supporting our organization. Volunteers have jobs outside of our organization, they deserve time to go hawking or participate in other activities.

Warning: providing me with a suggestion to help the organization could result in you being volunteered to spearhead implementation of the suggestion. As a high tech manager, project manager, business manager, I have the skills to assess an implementation plan including coordination with other volunteers.

Good ideas are just good ideas until somebody makes them happen. Only then can it become a benefit to our membership.

[frootdog]

Donna, thank you for the quick run down, but it really did not answer the question at hand. Is there anyway to search the NAFA archives and find out if the entire board has ever met in person?


NAFA started as a volunteer organization. 'Management' paid their own way. IMO we need to return to that model.

Amen! Fred.

Donna I think Mario's point is that the monetary compensation the board voted to give themselves has had no effect on the offices attending THE annual meeting. THE meeting they are REQUIRED to attend. Why continue to shell out LARGE sums of cash to a "solution" when it clearly is not working? Esentially what you have said Donna is that you can get 100% participation in any form BUT meeting in person the one time of year it is required.

Mario last year 2 directors were not present and in Amarillo FOUR were NOT present. Those are the only years meeting minutes NAFA has provided me with despite my asking for minutes going further back.

Fred Fogg - Maybe the part on the website about contacting the corresponding secretary to get minutes further back than those on the website should be removed. She does NOT have the info. Not her fault at all, but it is infuriating to be referred to someone for what you are seeking only for them to say they do not nor did they ever have that stuff. She has stated on a couple different occasions now that she only has info going back one or two years.

[wyodjm]

Maybe the part on the website about contacting the corresponding secretary to get minutes further back than those on the website should be removed. She does NOT have the info. Not her fault at all, but it is infuriating to be referred to someone for what you are seeking only for them to say they do not nor did they ever have that stuff. She has stated on a couple different occasions now that she only has info going back one or two years.

If I wanted to do a little research looking into past NAFA board meetings, I'd check with the Archives in Boise. They should have transcripts of all NAFA Board meetings.

[Dirthawking]

If I wanted to do a little research looking into past NAFA board meetings, I'd check with the Archives in Boise. They should have transcripts of all NAFA Board meetings.

Yes, but I think the point is...so should NAFA. It should not take an act of congress to get information.

[wyodjm]

If I wanted to do a little research looking into past NAFA board meetings, I'd check with the Archives in Boise. They should have transcripts of all NAFA Board meetings.


Yes, but I think the point is...so should NAFA. It should not take an act of congress to get information.

Perhaps. I was attempting to point people in the right direction on where to find the information.

[Dirthawking]

I get that, but the title of the thread says it all. I am a member. I would like to see NAFA make past information available. Why in the world should I have to go to a third part to get information from a club I am paying to be a member of.

[wyodjm]

I get that, but the title of the thread says it all. I am a member. I would like to see NAFA make past information available. Why in the world should I have to go to a third part to get information from a club I am paying to be a member of.

I understand Mario. I feel your pain. :)

Best,

Dan

[Saluqi]

I get that, but the title of the thread says it all. I am a member. I would like to see NAFA make past information available. Why in the world should I have to go to a third part to get information from a club I am paying to be a member of.

Well maybe we could get funding from Google to have NAFA digitize all of the various documents and communications from the past 50 years. What do you think? I don't know whether this information will ever be available with the click of a mouse, but we, NAFA members, only just got a webpage that has any value whatsoever, I think the philosophy of baby steps may be in order when it comes to historical documents.

[Dirthawking]

Well maybe we could get funding from Google to have NAFA digitize all of the various documents and communications from the past 50 years. What do you think? I don't know whether this information will ever be available with the click of a mouse, but we, NAFA members, only just got a webpage that has any value whatsoever, I think the philosophy of baby steps may be in order when it comes to historical documents.

Yes, I agree, baby steps. But the thread is title things I would like to see. So yes, I would like to see NAFA do some kind of archive on itself. They take meeting minutes, where do they go when the meeting is over? Right now you can not even get the information from two years ago.

[Tony James]

Amen! Fred.

Donna I think Mario's point is that the monetary compensation the board voted to give themselves has had no effect on the offices attending THE annual meeting. THE meeting they are REQUIRED to attend. Why continue to shell out LARGE sums of cash to a "solution" when it clearly is not working? Esentially what you have said Donna is that you can get 100% participation in any form BUT meeting in person the one time of year it is required.

Mario last year 2 directors were not present and in Amarillo FOUR were NOT present. Those are the only years meeting minutes NAFA has provided me with despite my asking for minutes going further back.

Fred Fogg - Maybe the part on the website about contacting the corresponding secretary to get minutes further back than those on the website should be removed. She does NOT have the info. Not her fault at all, but it is infuriating to be referred to someone for what you are seeking only for them to say they do not nor did they ever have that stuff. She has stated on a couple different occasions now that she only has info going back one or two years.

Hi Krys,

out of curiosity, are the archived minutes required for the purpose of establishing who's been unable to attend board meetings?

Regards,

Tony.

[Dirthawking]

Hi Krys,

out of curiosity, are the archived minutes required for the purpose of establishing who's been unable to attend board meetings?

Regards,

Tony.

More like a record of the business that was handled.

[Flatwater Falconer]

Perhaps. I was attempting to point people in the right direction on where to find the information.

Thanks Dan. That is the clearing house for NAFA records.

Krys and others: I and any member can access what they have. But realize that they've got THIRTEEN file cabinets of stuff and only a volunteer to help access it when queries come in. This isn't a push button archives (yet). As I mentioned in an email to someone who asked for some records recently - we are working on it to make this stuff available via something other than snail mail or telephone calls.

[Tony James]

More like a record of the business that was handled.

I'm sure you're right Mario.
I've never really had a great deal of faith in minutes as being a total reflection of business conducted during a meeting, and find them often to be only too easily open to misinterpretation (much like posts on a forum, where the written word often fails to get across the true spirit or intent of the person posting, again leading to possible misinterpretation).

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tony James]

For what it's worth, can I share a quick thought with you.

I'm assuming that most who belong to NAFA will be keen to see a broad spectrum of falconry interests represented by it's officers. Fanatic gamehawkers alongside the professional breeder, the seasoned goshawkers and the commited conservationists, the politically astute and those prepared to do the donkey work. NAFA, like any similar organisation, needs all of that and more.
Regarding remuneration of the expences they incur as they carry out their voluntary efforts, it's all too easy to question whether they provide value for money, and all too easy to judge the relative value of one against another.
I would advise not to make those judgements, and certainly not to consider disallowing individuals from claiming expences for doing what they may not otherwise be able to do, for the danger of doing so is that you effectively offer the organisation to those who might use it as an extention of their business interests or egos.
It's all well and good to imagine that everyone who serves should consider it an honour to be conducted at their own expense, but their will be those who, despite potentially being a valuable asset to NAFA, will be unable to serve unaided.
If you all wish, as I believe you should, to be represented by a group that resembles what you are in your varied specific interests, and who value each of the components that make up the whole, you need to support them all in return.

Just a thought.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[MrBill]

Krys writes:

>Donna I think Mario's point is that the monetary compensation the board voted to give themselves has had no effect on the offices attending THE annual meeting. THE meeting they are REQUIRED to attend. Why continue to shell out LARGE sums of cash to a "solution" when it clearly is not working?

Hi Krys,

First let me say, I think coming to the annual meeting should be a prerequisite to being an officer in NAFA, but, historically, while their attendance is mandated, there is nothing to compell them to be there, except a desire to do so. I remember for a number of years one director continually kept missing the NAFA meet, and kept getting re-elected in the process.

Anyway, with regard to your foregoing comment, if they don't come to the meeting, then they are not using the "monetary compensation" that has been allocated for that purpose.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[jfseaman]

I'm sure you're right Mario.
I've never really had a great deal of faith in minutes as being a total reflection of business conducted during a meeting, and find them often to be only too easily open to misinterpretation (much like posts on a forum, where the written word often fails to get across the true spirit or intent of the person posting, again leading to possible misinterpretation).

Best wishes,

Tony.
Ahh, you've been to Hawk Board meetings ;)

[outhawkn]

Paul,

I just don't see the point of them.

I dont know how true this is, but its the answer I was given several years ago when I Protested that same issue.
Supposedly sometime ago in Colorado the Humane or Audobon society got to together and decided to have their members join. Then they would calmly take over the club from within. The theory behind the two signatures is it would hopefully allow the club to prevent any anti falconers from joining or at least reduce the amount if any did get in. I'm not saying I buy this but thats what I was told.confusedd

[frootdog]

Hi Krys,

out of curiosity, are the archived minutes required for the purpose of establishing who's been unable to attend board meetings?

Regards,

Tony.

It lists who was in attendance of the meeting. I doubt the attendance records are further broken down and kept separately.

[frootdog]

Krys writes:

>Donna I think Mario's point is that the monetary compensation the board voted to give themselves has had no effect on the offices attending THE annual meeting. THE meeting they are REQUIRED to attend. Why continue to shell out LARGE sums of cash to a "solution" when it clearly is not working?

Hi Krys,

First let me say, I think coming to the annual meeting should be a prerequisite to being an officer in NAFA, but, historically, while their attendance is mandated, there is nothing to compell them to be there, except a desire to do so. I remember for a number of years one director continually kept missing the NAFA meet, and kept getting re-elected in the process.

Anyway, with regard to your foregoing comment, if they don't come to the meeting, then they are not using the "monetary compensation" that has been allocated for that purpose.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

So we agree the compensation should be abolished?

[Flatwater Falconer]

Why continue to shell out LARGE sums of cash to a "solution" when it clearly is not working? .

If you don't attend the board meeting (i.e., attend the meet and show for the meetings there is NO one-way fuel compensation allowed other officers who do attend. For me it's a huge assist.

That $102 or whatever it was . . . I got for fuel last year really helped ease the finances for me. I was able to buy more raffle tickets and attend the banquet. These are luxuries for me otherwise. I for one very much appreciate the one-way fuel expense reimbursement I receive. If others can afford not to need it that's a wonderful thing.

I hope this small reimbursement is not abolished.

Cheers.

[MrBill]

Krys writes:

>So we agree the compensation should be abolished?

Not at all, Krys. I know you have a heartburn over the travel expenses that have been paid out in the past by NAFA, but, remember they were not all for the directors to travel to the NAFA meet. And, relatively speaking, $.36 cents a mile is not much, particularly when it is only for one way; for example, I work for the University of Oklahoma and if I were to attend a conference, they would pay me over $.50 a mile, round trip. And, if I flew to the conference, they would pay the entire ticket, plus lodging, plus perdeim. You can argue that there is a difference between travel relative to one's job and travel that is relative to an all volunteer, not-for-profit organization, and I would agree with you--that's why they only pay $.36 cents a mile one way, with no reimbursement for lodging or food.

Seriously, Krys, there has to be at least some compensation for the directors, or as me and others have said, a number of good candidates for office who can't afford to come to the meet, that they are mandated to attend, would be eliminated. And, we would also eliminate those qualified candidates that can afford it but feel that NAFA should help pay for their attendance whether you agree with them or not). Remember, we want the best candidates to run for office, and we don't want a stone unturned (IMHO).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[Dirthawking]

who can't afford to come to the meet, that they are mandated to attend, would be eliminated.
Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Hey Bill, just to clarify, they are not mandated to attend the meet. Just the annual meeting of the board. Which as it turns out, some don't do anyway.

[MrBill]

Mario,

They are mandated to attend the annual meeting, which historically has taken place at the annual field meet. So, you can paint it any color you like, but, they are to be there (whether they attend or not). And if NAFA is going to require them to be there, then she could be compensated (if they attend).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[Dirthawking]

Mario,

They are mandated to attend the annual meeting, which historically has taken place at the annual field meet. So, you can paint it any color you like, but, they are to be there (whether they attend or not). And if NAFA is going to require them to be there, then she could be compensated (if they attend).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

But Bill don't you see the irony of what you just said? There are to be there, whether they attend or not. They are required, but IF they attend. Come on.....

I understand family emergencies and the like, but if running for the position, you know you are required to be at the meeting, I am not against the comp, but I am against board members giving them self the privilege of the comp, then still NOT showing up at the REQUIRED meeting.

I can not find anytime in the last 10 years that every board member was in attendance at the ONE REQUIRED meeting. As a board member you (not you personally) are saying I will do this and this and this, then you snub your nose at the membership by not doing what is required. I know this is a volunteer organization, but if you are going to step up, then do it. Don't half ass it!

[MrBill]

Mario,

As you know, the thrust of my posts have been directed at Krys's feeling about the amount of money spent on travel. Your gripe seems to be about directors taking the position and not taking advantage of the travel. So it's seems to be a case of apples and oranges, which you brought to my attention not long ago :-) But to address your topic, I don't see any "irony" in the fact that directors are supposed to attend the annual meeting but some don't. Again, we are not paying them to be directors and we can't hold a gun to their head. All we can do is encourage them to come, and one of the ways we can do that is by paying at least some of their travel expenses; whether they come or not (which seems to be what you are concerned about) is beyond our control. As of right now, what can we do if they don't come? Is there something in our By-Laws that says that if a director does not attend the annual meeting, he/she can be thrown out of office . . . . No. So, people can get their bowls in an uproar if directors don't attend the annual meeting, but there is not much that can be done about it . . . . at this point, anyway. I think there are more important issues for us to get upset about :-)

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[frootdog]

If you don't attend the board meeting (i.e., attend the meet and show for the meetings there is NO one-way fuel compensation allowed other officers who do attend. For me it's a huge assist.

That $102 or whatever it was . . . I got for fuel last year really helped ease the finances for me. I was able to buy more raffle tickets and attend the banquet. These are luxuries for me otherwise. I for one very much appreciate the one-way fuel expense reimbursement I receive. If others can afford not to need it that's a wonderful thing.

I hope this small reimbursement is not abolished.

Cheers.

WOW! YOU too get $ for travel? My director told me it was only directors that got this. It's even more maddening now? Where do they draw the line?

[Dirthawking]

Mario,

As you know, the thrust of my posts have been directed at Krys's feeling about the amount of money spent on travel. Your gripe seems to be about directors taking the position and not taking advantage of the travel.

Not at all. I could care less if they take advantage of it. I am just voicing an issue with lack of attendance. To me, it smacks of lack of respect for the members that voted somebody in.



So it's seems to be a case of apples and oranges, which you brought to my attention not long ago :-)

No, not at all. As I have already pointed out in another post. The title of the thread is things you would like to see. So yes, I am still on topic, and so is Krys.


But to address your topic, I don't see any "irony" in the fact that directors are supposed to attend the annual meeting but some don't. Again, we are not paying them to be directors and we can't hold a gun to their head. All we can do is encourage them to come, and one of the ways we can do that is by paying at least some of their travel expenses; whether they come or not (which seems to be what you are concerned about) is beyond our control. As of right now, what can we do if they don't come? Is there something in our By-Laws that says that if a director does not attend the annual meeting, he/she can be thrown out of office . . . . No. So, people can get their bowls in an uproar if directors don't attend the annual meeting, but there is not much that can be done about it . . . . at this point, anyway. I think there are more important issues for us to get upset about :-)

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Sure, it says they have to attend. If they are not fulfilling their duties, then yes, they should be asked to step down. Is this a little extreme. Yes, but maybe that is what NAFA needs right now to change.

Not upset about anything. Just following the spirit of this thread and discussing things I would like to see change.

[frootdog]

Krys writes:

>So we agree the compensation should be abolished?

Not at all, Krys.

Seriously, Krys, there has to be at least some compensation for the directors, or as me and others have said, a number of good candidates for office who can't afford to come to the meet, that they are mandated to attend, would be eliminated. And, we would also eliminate those qualified candidates that can afford it but feel that NAFA should help pay for their attendance whether you agree with them or not). Remember, we want the best candidates to run for office, and we don't want a stone unturned (IMHO).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

OK There does not HAVE to be compensation. I think though that you are missing my main 2 points. Yes the money is a big issue especially in this day and age, BUT.

1st the board should NOT be allowed to vote to pay themselves ANY club money. THAT should have been voted on by the membership.

2nd this was supposed to ensure or increase meeting attendance by the board who is already REQUIRED to be there. Has it helped? I honestly don't know because no one seems to be able to answer that question. So my point is that if it has NOT increased the attendance at the very least then it should be gotten rid of.

Again all this is in light of the club wanting to raise dues to cover expenses.

Furthermore it was explained to me that ONLY directors got this "perk" and now Donna says she gets money too. Who else does? Where does it stop?

Also I don't give a rip that the directors that don't show get no money. That's NOT the point.

[MrBill]

Mario,

You write:

>Not at all. I could care less if they take advantage of it [travel reimbursement]. I am just voicing an issue with lack of attendance. To me, it smacks of lack of respect for the members that voted somebody in.

Exactly! This is what I interpreted as your gripe, rather than what I was addressing which was Krys's reservations about the money that is paid out for travel by NAFA. Hopefully, you can see the difference.

In terms of getting them to step down if they don't attend the annual meeting is pie in the sky, my friend. Hell, if you have ever watched congressional hearings on CSPAN, the congresswo(men) who are there are basically speaking to an empty chamber, and we are paying them good money to be present and represent our interests. But, wow would you go about doing this, Mario? What would be your recommendation?

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[Dirthawking]

Mario,


In terms of getting them to step down if they don't attend the annual meeting is pie in the sky, my friend. Hell, if you have ever watched congressional hearings on CSPAN, the congresswo(men) who are there are basically speaking to an empty chamber, and we are paying them good money to be present and represent our interests. But, wow would you go about doing this, Mario? What would be your recommendation?

Bill Boni
Norman, OK



Sure, it says they have to attend. If they are not fulfilling their duties, then yes, they should be asked to step down. Is this a little extreme. Yes, but maybe that is what NAFA needs right now to change.



I already stated my recommendation....

[MrBill]

Krys writes:

>2nd this was supposed to ensure or increase meeting attendance by the board who is already REQUIRED to be there. Has it helped? I honestly don't know because no one seems to be able to answer that question. So my point is that if it has NOT increased the attendance at the very least then it should be gotten rid of.

Two things:

1) Do you know for a fact that helping with travel was intended to increase board attendance at the annual meeting. I sure don't know if this was the reason. If might be because they felt, not unlike other organizations, that they warranted some financial assistance to attend these "required" meetings.

2) And, before you get rid of the compensation, you would, of course, need to be sure that your premise is correct; until then, is it really worth be bothered about--you might be wrong, and then you have wasted a lot of energy over nothing.

You also write:

>Again all this is in light of the club wanting to raise dues to cover expenses.

Yes, the expense of preparing and mailing out of the publications. Evidently, this "expense" is eating up the dues very quickly. Director's travel comes out of the money brought in by the NAFA meet.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[MrBill]

Well, Mario, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that asking them to stepdown ain't going to happen. Frankly, we are damn lucky to have good people volunteer, and even at that, often times director positions go uncontested, which is a shame. And then throwing in, "if you don't attend the annual meeting, you will be asked to step down," would reduce good potential candidates even less (IMO).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[Dirthawking]

Well, Mario, I'm sure I don't need to tell you that asking them to stepdown ain't going to happen. Frankly, we are damn lucky to have good people volunteer, and even at that, often times director positions go uncontested, which is a shame. And then throwing in, "if you don't attend the annual meeting, you will be asked to step down," would reduce good potential candidates even less (IMO).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Bill, we both have our opinions, but let me put it to you this way as I do not want to spin this thread off and keep others from posting.

Why would somebody run for a position they know they can not fulfill?

[MrBill]

Mario writes:

>Why would somebody run for a position they know they can not fulfill?

Mario, how do you know that when a director runs for a position he/she does so knowing that they cannot attend the annual meeting? I really don't think there is malice of forethought involved when it comes to not attending these meetings.

And, as far as keeping others from posting--They can jump in anytime. I don't see this as a private conversation between the two of us. I would like to read what other people's thoughts on the topic(s).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[frootdog]

Two things:

1) Do you know for a fact that helping with travel was intended to increase board attendance at the annual meeting. I sure don't know if this was the reason. If might be because they felt, not unlike other organizations, that they warranted some financial assistance to attend these "required" meetings.

Norman, OK

I've discussed this with many a director going back to Ben Ohlander's days as CD, and to a t that is the answer I have gotten.

[Tony James]

Mario writes:

>Why would somebody run for a position they know they can not fulfill?

Mario, how do you know that when a director runs for a position he/she does so knowing that they cannot attend the annual meeting? I really don't think there is malice of forethought involved when it comes to not attending these meetings.

And, as far as keeping others from posting--They can jump in anytime. I don't see this as a private conversation between the two of us. I would like to read what other people's thoughts on the topic(s).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Hi Bill,

I must confess I've struggled not to jump in, considering some of what I've been reading.

You were absolutely right in recognising how lucky you are to have good people offer their services, and the suggestion that they should not be offered a modest contribution towards the financial costs involved in carrying out that service is frankly absurd.

During my time as treasurer of the club I belong to, I often heard all of these same objections, and soon realised that actually, if somebody wants to object to something, they will.
My club is a little more generous regards expenses, although in my experience something like 25% of those entitled to claim, never did --- which strangely still attracts criticism by some, on the grounds that it creates a certain degree of 'false accounting'. If NAFA is lucky enough to find that some don't claim what is justifiably available, everyone should consider themselves doubly lucky.
Nobody who serves a body like NAFA will ever come close to covering the costs that come with it, and although that will be largely irrelevant to some, to others it will mean the difference between serving and not (for example, available expences, regardless of how far short they fall of truly compensating the costs involved, do at least make it possible to justify the exercise to a questioning better half).

Regards some members being unable (or perhaps even unwilling for whatever reason) to attend meetings that should ideally be attended, of course it's regretable. But in any organisation, that will be a reality, and particularly in a country the size of yours (it happens here, and I think our country is smaller than Texas). As you say, they would not have imagined that possibility when first standing for the position, but the best laid plans and all that.

Some of the guys over there had better start realising that unless good people get the support they deserve, there will be no good people willing to do what may be required of them at some point in the future.
It's very easy to pick holes in something, but when it's the best you've got, I'm not sure it's the smart thing to do.

And a final thought. All this public NAFA bashing is totally negative and corrosive, and for sure does nothing to encourage membership or the feeling of cameraderie that provides the foundations on which to develop. Rather it gives the impression that membership is of little or no benefit, and creates the low moral that risks bringing it to it's knees.
Well, I don't know what people are happy to pay for car insurance in the US, but I'd suggest $50 a year to help insure falconry (which for most of us is far more valuable than a car) is much better value!

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Eragon]

Hey Randy (and other interested parties),

I got in touch with Skype about their video conferencing capabilities because it sounded like a good deal, and perhaps something that NAFA could use. This is what they said:

"Currently, Skype video conference calls are not supported. Video calls are only possible between two PCs (or Macs) at the moment. We might add support for video for multiple participants in the future."

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Hey Bill. I didn't contact Skype. I went into a download secition on the program that I have on my computer and there is a free download that works in conjunction with Skype. It's not made by skype. I'm not sure how well it works but it was pretty easy to find once I had the program.



Also, Somebody (Ev, I think) said that they were tired of people asking "what NAFA could do for me". I'd like to ask what is NAFA doing for falconry? Maybe a section on the website that says what issues NAFA is championing and what they want to happen. Maybe a call for volunteers with certain skills? It would be nice for current and potential members to see what issues NAFA is working on.

[everetkhorton]

Hey Bill. I didn't contact Skype. I went into a download secition on the program that I have on my computer and there is a free download that works in conjunction with Skype. It's not made by skype. I'm not sure how well it works but it was pretty easy to find once I had the program.



Also, Somebody (Ev, I think) said that they were tired of people asking "what NAFA could do for me". I'd like to ask what is NAFA doing for falconry? Maybe a section on the website that says what issues NAFA is championing and what they want to happen. Maybe a call for volunteers with certain skills? It would be nice for current and potential members to see what issues NAFA is working on.

Ryan:
Go on the NAFA web site and read the reports and past agenda etc. Falconry is where it is today because a lot of people got it there. Your State Club, along with NAFA. Falconry was just not give to us. In Mi. our officer busted there a$$ for over 20 years to get wild take. NAFA and others work many years to get wild take of Peregrines. The worm can turn so fast it will make you head spin. I have attended many of the NAFA business meeting, in most cases there are no more than 10 people at the meetings that are not past officer etc. I will be setting at the one in Dodge City and I bet you there will not be 10 from this forum at that meeting outside of candidates.

[Eragon]

Hey Ev,
No offense, but I already know all that. I'm not a member yet, so I can't look back but that's not what I want to know. Some of my friends here were part of all that. I know what happened then. I want to know what they are doing now. What are they doing to stay relevent? They should advertise what they are doing. People like to know where their money is going. And if NAFA can only point to the past, maybe it's time for a change. Either within the org or to a new org.

[everetkhorton]

Ryan:
Seeing this is a web site issue, you should as Fred.

[joekoz]

Hi Bill,

I must confess I've struggled not to jump in, considering some of what I've been reading.

You were absolutely right in recognising how lucky you are to have good people offer their services, and the suggestion that they should not be offered a modest contribution towards the financial costs involved in carrying out that service is frankly absurd.

During my time as treasurer of the club I belong to, I often heard all of these same objections, and soon realised that actually, if somebody wants to object to something, they will.
My club is a little more generous regards expenses, although in my experience something like 25% of those entitled to claim, never did --- which strangely still attracts criticism by some, on the grounds that it creates a certain degree of 'false accounting'. If NAFA is lucky enough to find that some don't claim what is justifiably available, everyone should consider themselves doubly lucky.
Nobody who serves a body like NAFA will ever come close to covering the costs that come with it, and although that will be largely irrelevant to some, to others it will mean the difference between serving and not (for example, available expences, regardless of how far short they fall of truly compensating the costs involved, do at least make it possible to justify the exercise to a questioning better half).

Regards some members being unable (or perhaps even unwilling for whatever reason) to attend meetings that should ideally be attended, of course it's regretable. But in any organisation, that will be a reality, and particularly in a country the size of yours (it happens here, and I think our country is smaller than Texas). As you say, they would not have imagined that possibility when first standing for the position, but the best laid plans and all that.

Some of the guys over there had better start realising that unless good people get the support they deserve, there will be no good people willing to do what may be required of them at some point in the future.
It's very easy to pick holes in something, but when it's the best you've got, I'm not sure it's the smart thing to do.

And a final thought. All this public NAFA bashing is totally negative and corrosive, and for sure does nothing to encourage membership or the feeling of cameraderie that provides the foundations on which to develop. Rather it gives the impression that membership is of little or no benefit, and creates the low moral that risks bringing it to it's knees.
Well, I don't know what people are happy to pay for car insurance in the US, but I'd suggest $50 a year to help insure falconry (which for most of us is far more valuable than a car) is much better value!

Best wishes,

Tony.

Tony you are so right on all of the points made in your post. And I can really relate to your last point. This past January I renewed my membership in NAFA after letting it laps for 1 year. The negative stuff I read in a December 2008 issue of Hawk Chalk caused me to seriously question if I wanted to be a member of what I perceived to be a very dysfunctional organization. So I didn't renew in 2009. Then, as I posted earlier in this thread, I came to realize with all of the Anti’s out there, the $35 membership fee is a bargain given the value of NAFA’s legislative and lobbying VOICE.

[MrBill]

Joe writes:

>I came to realize with all of the Anti’s out there, the $35 membership fee is a bargain given the value of NAFA’s legislative and lobbying VOICE.

Actually Joe, NAFA doesn't really have a legislative and lobbying voice. They, obviously, don't have the money to hire a lobbyist. We have a "Legal Counsel," but that's a far cry from a lobbiest. And, NAFA's voice as an organization is weak--relatively speaking. In the 80's when the USFWS attempted to regulate us out of existence after Operation Falcon, it was the individual members that made the difference, not NAFA as an organization. The membership (and others) wrote their congress(wo)men and anyone else who could help, this outpour of correspondence to the right people is what saved our bacon (IMO). NAFA DID play a big part in galvanizing its membership to do this, and that was crucial, crucial enough to cause me to join NAFA at that point. But, as an organization, NAFA isn't large enough to carry enough political clout to where a letter from the President of NAFA to the power(s) that be is going to make any real difference at all, certainly not like a letter from the President of the NRA or PETA for that matter.

I'm not trying to belittle NAFA by saying this, but, we have to be realistic in terms of the level of "power and influence" NAFA as an organizational entity really has in the grand scheme of things. Also, this doesn't mean that $35.00 isnt a bargain, because it is, as I pay a lot more than that to belong to a few professional organizations with a much larger revenue base in terms of membership; in other words, more members does not equate to a lower membership fee; that's for sure.

In term of membership fees, since most folks do not attend the NAFA meet, it seems to me we have to ask ourselves, "Is receiving three HC's and one Journal worth $35.00?" Personally, I think it is, particularly when you take into consideration the cost of printing and mailing.

Sorry if I carried on too long.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[FredFogg]

In term of membership fees, since most folks do not attend the NAFA meet, it seems to me we have to ask ourselves, "Is receiving three HC's and one Journal worth $35.00?" Personally, I think it is, particularly when you take into consideration the cost of printing and mailing.

Sorry if I carried on too long.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Bill, I don't think folks can look at it as $35 for 3 HC's and 1 Journal. Hell, if that is all anyone wants, order American Falconry magazine. NAFA is more than its publications (as many have stated already). The most important aspect of NAFA to me is to be a member of an organization that is for what I love to do. I am a member of AFC and my state club. I don't get anything from either of them in the form of publications, but I am still a member because they are each a group of folks that are for what I love and do. NAFA will raise their dues eventually, they have to and I will still be a member because I am part of something and I want to be part of that something. If folks just want to hawk and that is all they want to do and they don't want to have a voice in how the regulations that control their hawking, then just keep on hawking and let others take care of it. But when things get bad, don't come bitching about those that tried to do something about it and failed. At least they were there and not thinking of only themselves!

[Ron Clarke]

It's hard for me to fathom why, for less than the price of a tank of gas, a falconer in North America WOULDN'T support an organization that has done so much for the sport. We think nothing of filling the tank and hitting the road hawking. We make no similar demands on that fuel. I've never stood at the pump, thinking "well, yeah, gasoline from this pump carried me to a great hunting spot last week, and all last year, but I don't know what it will it do for me today, so maybe I'll just not fill up."

Ryan, help me understand. Not a member yet? Why not? Are you going to wait until there's a crisis or a situation that demands the attention of a continent-wide network of falconers and volunteer leaders and THEN step up and support NAFA? Or will you just continue to practice falconry and let others carry the ball as far as helping safeguard your ability to do so? Sorry, I just don't get it.

[latham]

It's hard for me to fathom why, for less than the price of a tank of gas, a falconer in North America WOULDN'T support an organization that has done so much for the sport. We think nothing of filling the tank and hitting the road hawking. We make no similar demands on that fuel. I've never stood at the pump, thinking "well, yeah, gasoline from this pump carried me to a great hunting spot last week, and all last year, but I don't know what it will it do for me today, so maybe I'll just not fill up."

Ryan, help me understand. Not a member yet? Why not? Are you going to wait until there's a crisis or a situation that demands the attention of a continent-wide network of falconers and volunteer leaders and THEN step up and support NAFA? Or will you just continue to practice falconry and let others carry the ball as far as helping safeguard your ability to do so? Sorry, I just don't get it.
Ron, he will be joining...give the 18 year old a break. Once he gets to Boise and starts at BSU, the road to enlightenment will improve...Bob

[wyodjm]

It's hard for me to fathom why, for less than the price of a tank of gas, a falconer in North America WOULDN'T support an organization that has done so much for the sport. We think nothing of filling the tank and hitting the road hawking. We make no similar demands on that fuel. I've never stood at the pump, thinking "well, yeah, gasoline from this pump carried me to a great hunting spot last week, and all last year, but I don't know what it will it do for me today, so maybe I'll just not fill up."

Ryan, help me understand. Not a member yet? Why not? Are you going to wait until there's a crisis or a situation that demands the attention of a continent-wide network of falconers and volunteer leaders and THEN step up and support NAFA? Or will you just continue to practice falconry and let others carry the ball as far as helping safeguard your ability to do so? Sorry, I just don't get it.

Ok. When you’re right, you’re right. I rejoined NAFA today. They took my credit card anyway! :)

[MrBill]

Fred,

You are absolutely right. For those of us who are retired from the military, some us belong to organizations related to our particular branch of the service. For me it is the Marine Corps Mustang Association. I belong to it, not for what it can do, or does, for me, but because I want to be affilated with an organization that means a great deal to me; in this case, the Marine Corps. The same thing holds true for NAFA, I am a member because it is an organization the represents a sport I hold near and dear, and while I wanted them to be more proactive over the years, I never turned my back on the organization when they weren't, because in the final analysis, NAFA represents falconry, which, as I said, is an endeavor I cherish. I simply made that statement for those who continually ask, "What is NAFA doing for me?" In othe words, "What am I receiving for my dues?" And, right now, the only material thing that they are receiving for their due is the three HC's and the one Journal. However, there is one thing I should have mentioned and didn't (my apologies), and tha is that NAFA is a watchdog organization at the federal level, which is very important in terms of our sport; this, in and of itself is enough to pay $35.00 for (IMHO).

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[MrBill]

Dan writes:

>Ok. When you’re right, you’re right. I rejoined NAFA today.

OMG! You must have had a Revelation :) Welcome back to the fold, Dan.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

[frootdog]

Ok. When you’re right, you’re right. I rejoined NAFA today. They took my credit card anyway! :)

WHAT?!?!?! clappclappclappclappclapp:D

[sharptail]

Ok. When you’re right, you’re right. I rejoined NAFA today. They took my credit card anyway! :)Alrighty then! Now we are gettin somewhere!!

[Ron Clarke]

Ron, he will be joining...give the 18 year old a break. Once he gets to Boise and starts at BSU, the road to enlightenment will improve...Bob

I'd be delighted to cut an up-and-comer a break! Ryan, if you're not yet 18, you can be an associate member of NAFA right now. When you turn 18, you can be a regular member. Now, I'm not so old so as to have forgotten my starving college student days, so here's the break -- I'll frog you the $35.00 for your first year's NAFA membership as long as ol' latham out there in Boise promises to let you roam the Archives whenever you want. I'd very much like to see what someone with your interest, energy, and ability to build a web site will do with a little exposure to the treasures there. Deal?

[Ron Clarke]

Ok. When you’re right, you’re right. I rejoined NAFA today. They took my credit card anyway! :)

Good on ya, Dan.

[Ron Clarke]

Tony you are so right on all of the points made in your post. And I can really relate to your last point. This past January I renewed my membership in NAFA after letting it laps for 1 year. The negative stuff I read in a December 2008 issue of Hawk Chalk caused me to seriously question if I wanted to be a member of what I perceived to be a very dysfunctional organization. So I didn't renew in 2009. Then, as I posted earlier in this thread, I came to realize with all of the Anti’s out there, the $35 membership fee is a bargain given the value of NAFA’s legislative and lobbying VOICE.

Good on ya, Joe.

[Saluqi]

It's hard for me to fathom why, for less than the price of a tank of gas, a falconer in North America WOULDN'T support an organization that has done so much for the sport. We think nothing of filling the tank and hitting the road hawking. We make no similar demands on that fuel. I've never stood at the pump, thinking "well, yeah, gasoline from this pump carried me to a great hunting spot last week, and all last year, but I don't know what it will it do for me today, so maybe I'll just not fill up."

Ryan, help me understand. Not a member yet? Why not? Are you going to wait until there's a crisis or a situation that demands the attention of a continent-wide network of falconers and volunteer leaders and THEN step up and support NAFA? Or will you just continue to practice falconry and let others carry the ball as far as helping safeguard your ability to do so? Sorry, I just don't get it.

I like that analogy Ron, maybe I'll pay my dues early this year!

[Ron Clarke]

I like that analogy Ron, maybe I'll pay my dues early this year!

Good on ya, Paul.

(I seem to be saying that a lot lately -- and I promise I'll not tire of it)

[latham]

I'd be delighted to cut an up-and-comer a break! Ryan, if you're not yet 18, you can be an associate member of NAFA right now. When you turn 18, you can be a regular member. Now, I'm not so old so as to have forgotten my starving college student days, so here's the break -- I'll frog you the $35.00 for your first year's NAFA membership as long as ol' latham out there in Boise promises to let you roam the Archives whenever you want. I'd very much like to see what someone with your interest, energy, and ability to build a web site will do with a little exposure to the treasures there. Deal?
Ron, as the saying goes: "You are a good man Charlie Brown". We are on the same page.....the road to falconry enlightenment runs through the Archives.....Bob

[FredFogg]

Ok. When you’re right, you’re right. I rejoined NAFA today. They took my credit card anyway!

See, I told you all, if we ragged on him enough, he would rejoin! LOL toungeout :D

Great to have you and your knowledge back in NAFA Dan! I hope what ever differences were made before, you and the other folks can move beyond them and work together on the eagle issue. I know your knowledge and hard work will be a HUGE asset to NAFA and to getting this eagle issue worked out. clappclappclapp

[Eragon]

Hey Ron,

Thanks for the offer! I'm 18 but haven't been for long! I'm sending out my application to get a signature as soon as I can make it to the post office. Nobody close by is a NAFA member, so I'm sending it to Rich B. and he's gunna sign it for me. The signature is the only reason I'm not a member yet. I'd definately be happy to volunteer at the archives anyway I can to help out. Being out there was incredible. I plan on spending a lot of time out there either way! I hope to meet you at the NAFA meet this fall! You seem like a great guy!

Hi Bob! I didn't realize that was you! It was the Alaska thing that threw me, but it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. Glad to see you here! Hope you enjoy it. I've met some great people on here.

[jfseaman]

Ok. When you’re right, you’re right. I rejoined NAFA today. They took my credit card anyway! :)
Welcome back Dan.(welc)

[Ron Clarke]

Hey Ron,

Thanks for the offer! I'm 18 but haven't been for long! I'm sending out my application to get a signature as soon as I can make it to the post office.

Good on ya, Ryan. Looking forward to your participation in NAFA.

[Lowachi]

[QUOTE=Eragon;134186]Hey Ron,

, so I'm sending it to Rich B. and he's gunna sign it for me. The signature is the only reason I'm not a member yet. QUOTE]


I'm waiting.......toungeout....still.......... I'm not getting any younger:D

[Lowachi]

Good on ya, Ryan. Looking forward to your participation in NAFA.


He's a good kid Ron. Likes to catch stuff with that tail. Too many old grudge holders up there to sign his application I guess, so it's coming thru me, and I'm forwarding it to Dianne and get this boy set for Dodge

[Dirthawking]

I'm not getting any younger:D


LORD KNOWS AINT THAT THE TRUTH!!!! toungeout

[Lowachi]

LORD KNOWS AINT THAT THE TRUTH!!!! toungeout

ain't yer hands full with the stairs victim?????toungeout

[Dirthawking]

ain't yer hands full with the stairs victim?????toungeout

I will always have a few free seconds to harass you old man! ;)

[hawkstir]

I got a signature and my application is in the mail. I hope they don't lose it like they did a few years ago.

[Eragon]

Just got an e-mail from Dianne Moller saying she recieved my application and forwarded it on to the Membership Secretary for me and I should be approved after the 20 day review period.

Looking forward to Dodge City!

[Lowachi]

Just got an e-mail from Dianne Moller saying she recieved my application and forwarded it on to the Membership Secretary for me and I should be approved after the 20 day review period.

Looking forward to Dodge City!

Got a heads up too! and yer more than welcome...ya can buy the first round for the weathering yard crew, me and Mario, and Brandi and Krysie, and....:Dtoungeout

[Eragon]

Will do Rich!

[RyanVZ]

mountain dews.....

[jfseaman]

Got a heads up too! and yer more than welcome...ya can buy the first round for the weathering yard crew, me and Mario, and Brandi and Krysie, and....:Dtoungeout
So 1 LARGE coffee and to St Pauli Girl N.A.

[Eragon]

I'm sure a kindly (and legal aged) falconer would be willing to deliever a nice bottle to the "ol' yard guy" for me!

[Ron Clarke]

I'm sure a kindly (and legal aged) falconer would be willing to deliever a nice bottle to the "ol' yard guy" for me!

I would be happy and honored to serve as your mule for that transaction (although I might charge a small transportation fee and/or taste the cargo to make sure it won't poison the recipient -- from the sounds of some of the comments above, he's gotten creaky and decrepit and might be vulnerable to all the dangerous parasites that flourish in a bottle of Jack Daniel's)!

[Eagle Owl]

Got a heads up too! and yer more than welcome...ya can buy the first round for the weathering yard crew, me and Mario, and Brandi and Krysie, and....:Dtoungeout

Do we get to put in requests now? I will also be helping out with registration, so surely that deserves a little extra sumin sumin! :D

[Eragon]

I would be happy and honored to serve as your mule for that transaction (although I might charge a small transportation fee and/or taste the cargo to make sure it won't poison the recipient -- from the sounds of some of the comments above, he's gotten creaky and decrepit and might be vulnerable to all the dangerous parasites that flourish in a bottle of Jack Daniel's)!

We can negotiate the fee. ;) And you read my mind on what I'd have delivered!

[Ron Clarke]

We can negotiate the fee. ;) And you read my mind on what I'd have delivered!

Heh heh heh -- I've known the recipient long enough to know his preferences. Sounds like there might be some others interested in a delivery, too. Let's start making our list!

[Dirthawking]

Yeah, I like that nice italian candy that comes in the square bottle, with a square top, but darnit, I can not seem to think of what it is called.....oh yeah! DISARONNO!!!

[Ron Clarke]

Yeah, I like that nice italian candy that comes in the square bottle, with a square top, but darnit, I can not seem to think of what it is called.....oh yeah! DISARONNO!!!

Couldn't agree more. In fact, I think it qualifies as a major food group all on its own. Consider it added to the list.

[Lowachi]

I'm sure a kindly (and legal aged) falconer would be willing to deliever a nice bottle to the "ol' yard guy" for me!

t'aint one I'd trust but Clarketoungeout

[Lowachi]

I would be happy and honored to serve as your mule for that transaction (although I might charge a small transportation fee and/or taste the cargo to make sure it won't poison the recipient -- from the sounds of some of the comments above, he's gotten creaky and decrepit and might be vulnerable to all the dangerous parasites that flourish in a bottle of Jack Daniel's)!

Ya don't look like "House" or walk with a cane...yet..I'll take my diagnosis from professionals if you please...may you may still sample for toxins...the least what NAFA can do for metoungeout SALUTE!!!! Skoal!!

[Lowachi]

(although I might charge a small transportation fee and/or taste the cargo to make sure it won't poison the recipient --

see, they're all in it for themselves:D:D:D:D:D

[Lowachi]

Do we get to put in requests now? I will also be helping out with registration, so surely that deserves a little extra sumin sumin! :D

you already get.."special considerations!!"

[Lowachi]

Couldn't agree more. In fact, I think it qualifies as a major food group all on its own. Consider it added to the list.

"Single Barrel" and I'll make sure the sun never bleaches a feather:D.

I think I'm being retired, so this is it....after the yard closes!

[Dirthawking]

"Single Barrel" and I'll make sure the sun never bleaches a feather:D.

I think I'm being retired, so this is it....after the yard closes!

Explain please! Say it isn't so.....

[Ron Clarke]

"Single Barrel" and I'll make sure the sun never bleaches a feather:D.

I think I'm being retired, so this is it....after the yard closes!

Single Barrel it is. But what's this hooey about retirement?

[frootdog]

Single Barrel it is. But what's this hooey about retirement?

The UT field meet chair is seemingly not interested in using Rich as yard warden. It's a forced retirement so ta speak.

[Eagle Owl]

The UT field meet chair is seemingly not interested in using Rich as yard warden. It's a forced retirement so ta speak.

Well that's crap! I say we all call the UT Meet Chair and bug him till he reconsiders! :D

[frootdog]

Well that's crap! I say we all call the UT Meet Chair and bug him till he reconsiders! :D

Me personally, having not missed a recent NAFA meet, would rather have a familiar face that I know can be trusted, but ultimately it's up to the field meet chair.