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OATS
07-19-2010, 08:55 PM
Harlans are not a separate species or even subspecies they are a dark morph (melanistic) redtailed hawk.

forestfalcon
07-19-2010, 11:54 PM
Harlans are not a separate species or even subspecies they are a dark morph (melanistic) redtailed hawk.

I'm pretty sure that a Harlans is a recognized subspecies: B.j. harlani

frootdog
07-20-2010, 10:56 AM
Wendy is not a Harlans, she is a dark morph.;)

She is molting out beautifully!

Actually she is neither. She is a Rufus Morph as has been stated previously in the thread.

FredFogg
07-20-2010, 11:08 AM
Harlans are not a separate species or even subspecies they are a dark morph (melanistic) redtailed hawk.

A true Harlans doesn't have a red-tail!

frootdog
07-20-2010, 11:41 AM
A true Harlans doesn't have a red-tail!

Good catch Fred. White/cream

frootdog
07-20-2010, 11:48 AM
Dark Morph pics http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/frootdog/nafa5.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/frootdog/nafa2.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/frootdog/kat1.jpg http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/frootdog/kat2.jpg

Eagle Owl
07-20-2010, 11:57 AM
Actually she is neither. She is a Rufus Morph as has been stated previously in the thread.

Oops...my bad. She is a rufous. These pain meds are messing with my head. crazyy

conorhawk
07-20-2010, 12:22 PM
if you want to get technical wendy is actually a rufous integrate a true rufous looks like this
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu123/conorhawk/4153811647_6ff21e3db1.jpg
a rufous integrate looks like this
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu123/conorhawk/Red-tailed-hawk-adult-dark2.jpg
a melanistic looks like this
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu123/conorhawk/Oprah25.jpg
and i don't know what you would call this but i call it a melanistic X2
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu123/conorhawk/MikesRedTail38.jpg

Eagle Owl
07-20-2010, 12:55 PM
if you want to get technical wendy is actually a rufous integrate a true rufous looks like this

a rufous integrate looks like this

a melanistic looks like this

and i don't know what you would call this but i call it a melanistic X2


Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as an integrate. And many scientists have also conceded that there are not really 14 something RT subspecies either, there are around 3-4. All my ornithology books and studies are at my dad's in storage, so I can't give you all the scientific data. The first 2 pictures you posted are simply a rufous morph. RTs have a very wide range of colors, even within the morphs. The last 2 birds that you said are melanistic are Harlan's hawks. Even Harlan's hawks have a wide variety of coloration. There is a light phase Harlan's hawk that the majority of people would call a Krider's. Here is a picture of that bird: http://www.azfo.org/gallery/2009/html5/HRLH_MPG_Core_20091213.html

I would go into it more, but I gotta get to the DR. Have a great day!:D

FredFogg
07-20-2010, 01:40 PM
There is a light phase Harlan's hawk that the majority of people would call a Krider's. Here is a picture of that bird: http://www.azfo.org/gallery/2009/html5/HRLH_MPG_Core_20091213.html


I see nothing in those pictures that would make me identify that bird as a light phase Harlan's hawk! Sorry, just don't see it! Looks like a typical light phase red-tail.

Eagle Owl
07-20-2010, 03:49 PM
I see nothing in those pictures that would make me identify that bird as a light phase Harlan's hawk! Sorry, just don't see it! Looks like a typical light phase red-tail.

Well, then you can argue with Mr. CLark and Mr. Wheeler (authors of A Photographic Guide to North American Raptors) Mr. Clark also wrote Extreme variation in the tails of Harlan's Hawks and A Field Guide to Hawks of North America.

Here is what defines it as a Harlan's:

Keys to identifying a Harlan's Hawk are overall color and the tail. Typical light-morph birds have blackish upperparts that lack warm brown tones, with white markings on the scapulars. Head shows strong facial pattern. Underparts (including throats) are white, without the rufous tones of other Red-tails. The belly band is light or moderate (lacking in "Krider's" Red-tailed Hawks) and the wings have dark patagial marks, unlike Krider's. The wingtips of a Harlan's fall short of the tip of the tail. In contrast to other races of Red-tailed Hawk (and even other buteos), tail patterns in Harlan's Hawk are extraordinarily varied. According to Bill Clark, co-author of "A Photographic Guide to North American Raptors," no two Harlan's tails are exactly alike in color and pattern. Tails can be barred, mottled, spotted, or a combination of all three; often have wavy dark bands, which can be light or heavy, narrow or wide, partial or complete. The color can be white, gray, rufous, with any shade in between, or a combination,. Individual feathers will often have a different pattern or color than other feathers in the same tail!

On this particular bird, the lack of rufous tones in the plumage, the whitish superciliary, wide and wavy dark tail bands, white spotting on the uppersides are all harlani traits.

FredFogg
07-20-2010, 03:57 PM
Well, then you can argue with Mr. CLark and Mr. Wheeler (authors of A Photographic Guide to North American Raptors) Mr. Clark also wrote Extreme variation in the tails of Harlan's Hawks and A Field Guide to Hawks of North America.

Here is what defines it as a Harlan's:

Keys to identifying a Harlan's Hawk are overall color and the tail. Typical light-morph birds have blackish upperparts that lack warm brown tones, with white markings on the scapulars. Head shows strong facial pattern. Underparts (including throats) are white, without the rufous tones of other Red-tails. The belly band is light or moderate (lacking in "Krider's" Red-tailed Hawks) and the wings have dark patagial marks, unlike Krider's. The wingtips of a Harlan's fall short of the tip of the tail. In contrast to other races of Red-tailed Hawk (and even other buteos), tail patterns in Harlan's Hawk are extraordinarily varied. According to Bill Clark, co-author of "A Photographic Guide to North American Raptors," no two Harlan's tails are exactly alike in color and pattern. Tails can be barred, mottled, spotted, or a combination of all three; often have wavy dark bands, which can be light or heavy, narrow or wide, partial or complete. The color can be white, gray, rufous, with any shade in between, or a combination,. Individual feathers will often have a different pattern or color than other feathers in the same tail!

On this particular bird, the lack of rufous tones in the plumage, the whitish superciliary, wide and wavy dark tail bands, white spotting on the uppersides are all harlani traits.


Hmmm, they say keys are overall color and tail! But then they say no two have the same color and markings on their tail! Yeah, I believe everything they say because they wrote a book! Duh! crazyy Still don't believe that is a Harlan's, don't really care what Clark and Wheeler says!

OH yeah, then they say the belly band is light or moderate! Come on, that describes just about half the regular juvenile red-tails out there!

Eagle Owl
07-20-2010, 04:27 PM
Hmmm, they say keys are overall color and tail! But then they say no two have the same color and markings on their tail! Yeah, I believe everything they say because they wrote a book! Duh! crazyy Still don't believe that is a Harlan's, don't really care what Clark and Wheeler says!

OH yeah, then they say the belly band is light or moderate! Come on, that describes just about half the regular juvenile red-tails out there!

They are comparing belly bands to the Krider's, not all RTs. Please don't twist words to suit your needs. And for the rest of your thinking...I guess no one should listen to anything Beebe and Webster have said, or McDermott, or Nick Fox, etc., because according to you, writing a book does not mean anything.crazyy Wheeler and Clark have both studied raptors for over 50 years. Clark worked for the NWF as the Director at the Raptor Information Center, has done extensive research on Harlan's hawks, Harris's hawks and white-tailed hawks. He has written numerous scientific papers and is well respected in the ornithological field. No offense, Fred, but I am going to listen to the opinion of someone that has spent almost their entire life studying these birds over someone who has flown a few RTs.

Saluqi
07-20-2010, 04:35 PM
Here's a Harlan's for you.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/Gos_Frieda/Harla006.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/Gos_Frieda/Harla004.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa198/Gos_Frieda/Harla002.jpg

Dirthawking
07-20-2010, 04:56 PM
Hey everybody, can you please start a new thread concerning red-tailed hawks and the difference in subspecies. I would hate to cloud this young mans thread on his bird anymore than has already happened.

I will gladly seperate this thread if needed.

Eagle Owl
07-20-2010, 04:58 PM
Here's a Harlan's for you.



Paul, I have seen quite a few Harlan's hawks. But just with every other RT morph, there are different colors within each morph. Like I said, I am gonna listen to the experts.

Saluqi
07-20-2010, 05:03 PM
Paul, I have seen quite a few Harlan's hawks. But just with every other RT morph, there are different colors within each morph. Like I said, I am gonna listen to the experts.

And so, the pics I just posted are not of a Harlan's? Is that what you're telling me? Or am I just confused?

kimmerar
07-20-2010, 05:12 PM
From what Mr. Clark has told a friend of mine - that has a confirmed Harlans - the bird will look like Paul's pic as an adult. As a juvy it was salt and peppered all over. Tail, chest and back. I'm waiting permission to use some of his pics. The thing is the harlans have a light cream colored tail as adults - words from Mr. Clark himself.

Saluqi
07-20-2010, 05:24 PM
Here are a bunch of good pics of Harlan's:

http://www.schmoker.org/BirdPics/HRLH.html

I fail to to see the distinction between a passage light phase Harlan's and a passage Krider's, I don't think you'd know for certain until it molted out.

Eagle Owl
07-20-2010, 05:24 PM
And so, the pics I just posted are not of a Harlan's? Is that what you're telling me? Or am I just confused?

Paul where did I say that was not a Harlan's? Please don't put words in my mouth. Yes, the picture you posted is a Harlan's. But as I said earlier, there is also a light morph Harlan's that is often mistaken as a Krider's. Here is a study on the Krider's that also explains that the light phase Harlan's is often mistaken for a Krider's. It gives the characteristics of the Krider's and if you go back and look at the picture of the light phase Harlan's you will see the differences.

RyanVZ
07-20-2010, 05:26 PM
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/VZVideos/falconry%20pics/front.jpg
Trapped this Harlans just outside of Woodward last year and just slapped some temp anklets on him for a picture.


http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/VZVideos/tail.jpg
This tail made me think twice (even three or four times) as to whether I was sure that this was a Redtail at all. But Wheeler and Clark's book had pictures of Harlan's with the same markings.


http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/VZVideos/falconry%20pics/IMG_0637.jpg
This bird was trapped down the street from my house. I was driving home from flying my Hybrid and saw a bird facing me that looked basically white up on the pole. I grabbed my bc that I always have with me in the winter and saw yellow eyes as I drove under him. Tossed the trap only to see his red tail as he came down. Beautiful bird though.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm95/VZVideos/falconry%20pics/IMG_0640.jpg

Saluqi
07-20-2010, 05:27 PM
Paul where did I say that was not a Harlan's? Please don't put words in my mouth. Yes, the picture you posted is a Harlan's. But as I said earlier, there is also a light morph Harlan's that is often mistaken as a Krider's. Here is a study on the Krider's that also explains that the light phase Harlan's is often mistaken for a Krider's. It gives the characteristics of the Krider's and if you go back and look at the picture of the light phase Harlan's you will see the differences.

I guess Brandi because you came off as attacking me, I think you are often misunderstood in your e-communications as being overly defensive, in the future I will take that into consideration when reading your posts.

Eagle Owl
07-20-2010, 05:36 PM
From what Mr. Clark has told a friend of mine - that has a confirmed Harlans - the bird will look like Paul's pic as an adult. As a juvy it was salt and peppered all over. Tail, chest and back. I'm waiting permission to use some of his pics. The thing is the harlans have a light cream colored tail as adults - words from Mr. Clark himself.

Kim, this is an article written by Mr. Clark on the study of Harlan's hawks (http://www.aba.org/birding/v41n1p30.pdf) and it disputes what you claim he said. Harlan's have a wide variety of tail colors, including rufous colored. This is a quote from his study of Harlan's hawks:

"Harlan’s Hawk adult tails, on the other hand, vary greatly in color: white; gray; rufous; and every shade in between, including gray-brown, chestnut, or some combination of these.

Eagle Owl
07-20-2010, 05:48 PM
I guess Brandi because you came off as attacking me, I think you are often misunderstood in your e-communications as being overly defensive, in the future I will take that into consideration when reading your posts.

How was I attacking you? crazyy If you took it that way then you are reading more into my posts than there is. I simply stated that I knew what a Harlan's hawk looked like. If anything, I should take offense to your post since you seemed to infer that I don't know what a Harlan's hawk looks like.

Saluqi
07-20-2010, 06:02 PM
To be honest I wasn't reading your posts, I saw folks bickering about what a Harlan's is supposed to look like and I posted pictures of a bird I knew to be a Harlan's. My apologies.

outhawkn
07-20-2010, 06:04 PM
Harlans are not a separate species or even subspecies they are a dark morph (melanistic) redtailed hawk.

You may very well be right, currently science would disagree with you.

tony123abc
07-20-2010, 07:52 PM
They are all redtails. I do not recognize sub species. IMO, great distances are used by taxonomists/classificationophiles that are to lazy to find a new species. But I will admit the Harlans is a dandy looking bird even if there is no redtail.

OATS
07-20-2010, 09:03 PM
I knew I shouldn't have hit the send button. Sorry Conor for sparking this off in your thread. Good move relocating it to a new one.

Birders, naturalists, and ornithologists have been unsuccessfully debating this very topic for 150 years so there is no reason for us to agree on it either. This topic has been near and dear to me for some time since I have spent my whole life in the primary breeding region of Harlans and where the large majority of our redtails are Harlans phase. Yep I said phase. When one examines the scientific definition of a species or subspecies there is no biological justification for Harlan's hawks to be considered a separate subspecies let alone a separate species which they were considered for a long time. Many differing opinions amongst the experts out there. For every paper supporting a subspecies designation there is a study contradicting it. I, for one have seen hundreds if not thousands of Harlans, handled more than I can count, and have hunted them for many seasons (even have one in the mews as we speak). Many falconers in Alaska currently have Harlans and western phase RTs they hunt with. Around here, anybody who has hunted RTs for any amount of time and has experience with both phases can tell you that they are absolutely just redtails of a different hue and no two Harlans are colored the same. Every year we find a new nest or two where one of the parents is a traditional western phase and one is a Harlans. What does that make the offspring? Certainly not a different subspecies? Just like a litter of rabbits, dogs, etc. may have different color offspring, birds with diverse visual characteristics like redtails do the same.

I don't want this thread to turn into a debate with people's personalities clashing over the inability to agree so let's be nice. I'm not big on arguing over something that really doesn't matter so we may have to agree to disagree. A redtail is a redtail. They are great falconry birds no matter what color they are.

OATS
07-20-2010, 09:08 PM
They are all redtails. I do not recognize sub species. IMO, great distances are used by taxonomists/classificationophiles that are to lazy to find a new species. But I will admit the Harlans is a dandy looking bird even if there is no redtail.

Amen Tony. BTW, that bird in my title pic is a Harlans. Guess what it is finishing up it's first moult and has grown a tail of many different colors including RED. That bird is getting released tomorrow. =)

forestfalcon
07-20-2010, 09:11 PM
They are all redtails. I do not recognize sub species. IMO, great distances are used by taxonomists/classificationophiles that are to lazy to find a new species. But I will admit the Harlans is a dandy looking bird even if there is no redtail.


So, do you not recognize Peregrines as peales, anatum, tundrius, etc? Those are all subspecies...

outhawkn
07-20-2010, 09:26 PM
So, do you not recognize Peregrines as peales, anatum, tundrius, etc? Those are all subspecies...

clapp

borderhawk
07-20-2010, 09:42 PM
This bird was at Nafa in Amarillo. Never found out whose it was but I'm sure someone here would recognize it...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v735/Mincabird/DSCF0013-1.jpg

OATS
07-20-2010, 10:02 PM
So, do you not recognize Peregrines as peales, anatum, tundrius, etc? Those are all subspecies...

I recognize those as peregrine subspecies. We have all three here in Alaska. They're breeding ranges are regionally separated which generally precludes interbreedings although this occurs at the fringes of their ranges. A requirement of being a subspecies is that the species can physically interbreed but are generally prohibited from doing so be some sort of real or perceived barrier.

rri32701
07-20-2010, 11:14 PM
Anyone know how to tell the other sub-species apart,Calurus,Borealis and Umbrinus?

Eagle Owl
07-21-2010, 12:15 AM
To be honest I wasn't reading your posts, I saw folks bickering about what a Harlan's is supposed to look like and I posted pictures of a bird I knew to be a Harlan's. My apologies.

Sorry, Paul. Since you posted that picture right after I posted and said here is a Harlan's for you, I thought you were directing it specifically to me. But I was not certainly not attacking you. ;)

Eagle Owl
07-21-2010, 12:28 AM
I knew I shouldn't have hit the send button. Sorry Conor for sparking this off in your thread. Good move relocating it to a new one.

Birders, naturalists, and ornithologists have been unsuccessfully debating this very topic for 150 years so there is no reason for us to agree on it either. This topic has been near and dear to me for some time since I have spent my whole life in the primary breeding region of Harlans and where the large majority of our redtails are Harlans phase. Yep I said phase. When one examines the scientific definition of a species or subspecies there is no biological justification for Harlan's hawks to be considered a separate subspecies let alone a separate species which they were considered for a long time. Many differing opinions amongst the experts out there. For every paper supporting a subspecies designation there is a study contradicting it. I, for one have seen hundreds if not thousands of Harlans, handled more than I can count, and have hunted them for many seasons (even have one in the mews as we speak). Many falconers in Alaska currently have Harlans and western phase RTs they hunt with. Around here, anybody who has hunted RTs for any amount of time and has experience with both phases can tell you that they are absolutely just redtails of a different hue and no two Harlans are colored the same. Every year we find a new nest or two where one of the parents is a traditional western phase and one is a Harlans. What does that make the offspring? Certainly not a different subspecies? Just like a litter of rabbits, dogs, etc. may have different color offspring, birds with diverse visual characteristics like redtails do the same.

I don't want this thread to turn into a debate with people's personalities clashing over the inability to agree so let's be nice. I'm not big on arguing over something that really doesn't matter so we may have to agree to disagree. A redtail is a redtail. They are great falconry birds no matter what color they are.

Eric, if you go back and reread my posts, I have basically said the same things you just said. I do not believe that every color morph (or phase as you call it) is a separate subspecies. If there are true RT subspecies, it is only a few. I also said that the Harlan's have a variety of tail colors, including rufous. The only thing we do disagree on is which phase Wendy is. ;)

Eagle Owl
07-21-2010, 12:44 AM
Anyone know how to tell the other sub-species apart,Calurus,Borealis and Umbrinus?

There is not really a specific look that separates them apart as there is a great color variation among RTs. Hence the reason I am in the taxonomic group that does not recognize them as subspecies. But those 3 RTs are defined by where they breed.

Buteo jamaicensis borealis --- eastern red-tailed hawk
Buteo jamaicensis calurus --- western red-tailed hawk
Buteo jamaicensis umbrinus --- Florida red-tailed hawk

kimmerar
07-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Here are the pics of my friends RT. Cash has only dropped one tail feather so far and he says it's red with a black band and spotted.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/kimmerar/Cash_1_front.jpg

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/kimmerar/cash_back.jpg

I will post a picture of him when he's done with the molt.

And I can't leave this out

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/kimmerar/Cash_bunny.jpg

tony123abc
07-21-2010, 12:27 PM
Nope. Peregrine is a peregrine. A gyr is a gyr. A coopie a coopie a Red shoulder is a red shoulder. A ferruge is a ferruge. My Nevada ferruges are just the same as the S. Dakota ferruges. But then, I like to keep it simple. Put em in a box if healthy breeding babies pop out 9 months later, bingo! The same thing. Regardless of distance separation, migration and so on. My opinion. :D

forestfalcon
07-21-2010, 12:40 PM
Nope. Peregrine is a peregrine. A gyr is a gyr. A coopie a coopie a Red shoulder is a red shoulder. A ferruge is a ferruge. My Nevada ferruges are just the same as the S. Dakota ferruges. But then, I like to keep it simple. Put em in a box if healthy breeding babies pop out 9 months later, bingo! The same thing. Regardless of distance separation, migration and so on. My opinion. :D

I understand your thought on this, but many subspecies aren't just labeled that simply because of separation/migration. Many of these subspecies have very obvious morphological differences, for instance, a Harlans redtail has shorter wings than other subspecies of redtail...

tony123abc
07-21-2010, 12:51 PM
Spent a bazillion hours in the lab in college looking at stuff. Spent so much time looking at morph stuff under a microscope IDing critters and so on my eyes still hurt, and that was over 20 years ago. Of course I may just be getting old too. IMO, If you have a 100% count on all morphological differences in a given species, then make it a species. If it aint 100% it is a variation.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/subspecies

I know more is needed in the definition link, but like I said, I keep it simple. I like finality.

forestfalcon
07-21-2010, 01:02 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree. ;)

FredFogg
07-21-2010, 02:03 PM
They are comparing belly bands to the Krider's, not all RTs. Please don't twist words to suit your needs. And for the rest of your thinking...I guess no one should listen to anything Beebe and Webster have said, or McDermott, or Nick Fox, etc., because according to you, writing a book does not mean anything.crazyy Wheeler and Clark have both studied raptors for over 50 years. Clark worked for the NWF as the Director at the Raptor Information Center, has done extensive research on Harlan's hawks, Harris's hawks and white-tailed hawks. He has written numerous scientific papers and is well respected in the ornithological field. No offense, Fred, but I am going to listen to the opinion of someone that has spent almost their entire life studying these birds over someone who has flown a few RTs.

So Brandi, with your reasoning, if Wheeler and Clark told you a golden eagle was a red-tail and posted a picture of it, would you believe them? Come on, don't get your panties all twisted in a wad here. Anytime someone disagrees with you, you take it personally. I just don't think that particular bird in that picture is a Harlan's, PERIOD! I am not twisting anybody's words around, just stating what I believe. And quite frankly, I really don't give a crap if you believe what I think or not, that isn't my point on posting. I just posted I don't think that is a Harlan's and unless you can provide better pictures that shows more proof, then as far as I am concerned it is just a light morph red-tail! toungeout

Oh yeah, you need to re-read what you posted! They are not comparing the belly bands to just Kriders. They are describing a Harlan's in that paragraph and say The belly band is light or moderate (lacking in "Krider's" Red-tailed Hawks) and the wings have dark patagial marks, unlike Krider's. So they are saying the belly band is light or moderate and then say it is lacking in a Kriders, not saying it is light or moderate in comparison to a Kriders. And again, I will say, trying to compare belly bands on red-tails is about the worst way to determine a type of red-tail, they all vary so differently.

It is a light morph red-tail, period! toungeout :D

tony123abc
07-21-2010, 03:18 PM
I am okay with that. I am one of them guys that are just set in his ways. Not always a good thing either. :D

PeteJ
07-21-2010, 04:12 PM
I see nothing in those pictures that would make me identify that bird as a light phase Harlan's hawk! Sorry, just don't see it! Looks like a typical light phase red-tail.
I'm with Fred on this one. I'd have to see that one molted to determine it to be an oddball Harlan's. It looks like a pretty standard immature RT to me. Not even a Krider's phase...just a little bit lighter phase common everyday run of the mill nothing special RT.

PeteJ
07-21-2010, 04:14 PM
Here are the pics of my friends RT. Cash has only dropped one tail feather so far and he says it's red with a black band and spotted.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u102/kimmerar/Cash_1_front.jpg


That's a good looking Buteo right there! If you're gonna have one, you might as well have on that looks as good as that one. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like after it molts.

kimmerar
07-21-2010, 05:06 PM
That's a good looking Buteo right there! If you're gonna have one, you might as well have on that looks as good as that one. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like after it molts.

Yes Pete - I agree. Murphy is hanging out with my friend this year. You know - just can't wait to see the new feathers :) I will update when I get a molted picture. It's going real slow. Even body feathers.

MrBill
07-21-2010, 05:37 PM
Brandi, et.al.,

True the ornithologists speak of 14 subspecies of RT's, but here is the catch, in order for them to be a subspecies they have to be a genetically distinct geographical subunit of the species; and, of course, none of them are, not even the Harlan's. Genetically, all the RT subspecies (races) are the same. It is my understanding that ornithologists use these "subspecies" as a matter of convenience more than anything else. So, what does all of this mean? Well, IMO, it means that these different "subspecies" are simply different colorations of the same animal.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

OATS
07-21-2010, 06:01 PM
I couldn't agree more Bill. Jenni, not to be argumentative, IMO no way Harlans have a shorter wing chord or overall shorter wings for the body size. We may have to agree to disagree =)

tony123abc
07-21-2010, 06:14 PM
I agree, Borneo is too hot and muggy. The darn Papuans will kill me and aint no roads in the Amazon. And them dang bugs are just plain icky! How will I ever get to name a critter, I got it, I will create some. Biggiest birsus westsidiest

tony123abc
07-21-2010, 06:21 PM
Oops. Bad grammer. Insert a period for the 1st.comma. And add a comma to correct the run on. Add a d in birdsus. Kill the comma at the end of critter & add a ? Sorry but Mr. Bill, I just can't follow you without trying to clean up the rightin a bit.:D

tcline614
07-21-2010, 06:31 PM
How about another "A" in grammar while you are at it! HEHEHE

Eagle Owl
07-21-2010, 06:36 PM
Brandi, et.al.,

True the ornithologists speak of 14 subspecies of RT's, but here is the catch, in order for them to be a subspecies they have to be a genetically distinct geographical subunit of the species; and, of course, none of them are, not even the Harlan's. Genetically, all the RT subspecies (races) are the same. It is my understanding that ornithologists use these "subspecies" as a matter of convenience more than anything else. So, what does all of this mean? Well, IMO, it means that these different "subspecies" are simply different colorations of the same animal.

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

Bill, I completely agree.

tony123abc
07-21-2010, 06:38 PM
Gosh, I so suk at righting.

MrBill
07-21-2010, 06:50 PM
Don't give up, Tony. You will get better at writing. But, understand, according to Dave Hampton, good writing denotes a good falconer, so keep at it :-)

Bill Boni
Norman, OK

tony123abc
07-21-2010, 06:59 PM
Bill, I will try. Graammer? That don't look right.

rri32701
07-21-2010, 09:06 PM
Has anybody read "the Redtailed Hawk the great unknown" It describes the different sub-species and the differences between them including some being much better hunters than others.

OATS
07-21-2010, 09:25 PM
Has anybody read "the Redtailed Hawk the great unknown" It describes the different sub-species and the differences between them including some being much better hunters than others.

Interesting Robert. Who wrote it and where can I get one? Out of curiousity, what was the author's opinion on the best hunting subspecies and what are his/her qualifications and criteria for determining it? Thanks.

FredFogg
07-21-2010, 09:32 PM
Interesting Robert. Who wrote it and where can I get one? Out of curiousity, what was the author's opinion on the best hunting subspecies and what are his/her qualifications and criteria for determining it? Thanks.

http://www.mikesfalconry.com/product.asp?specific=1226

touyang
07-21-2010, 09:56 PM
Here's one of the best red-tailed (rufous morph) I have ever flown. He was released after the molt (I always released my rt's after the molt). Unless of course I wanted to keep it for another the season, but comes trapping season, I am itching to trap a new bird so I always ended up releasing them.

Tripple:
http://modernfalconry.com/images/hardi/hardi4.jpg

After a successful hunting:
http://modernfalconry.com/images/hardi/hardi1.jpg

http://modernfalconry.com/images/hardi/hardi2.jpg

Molt completed (released):
http://modernfalconry.com/images/hardi/hardi_released.jpg

rri32701
07-21-2010, 10:00 PM
Interesting Robert. Who wrote it and where can I get one? Out of curiousity, what was the author's opinion on the best hunting subspecies and what are his/her qualifications and criteria for determining it? Thanks.
Its written by Beatriz E.Candril .Its a 285 page book written to enlighten European Falconers about Redtails.It has a couple sections wriiten by american Falconers such as Jim Gwiazdzinski.
I believe I got it from Mikes Falconry.It likens Borealis to being Accipter Like and a very good hunter and Calurus being slower and weaker but still being able to take rabbits and small hare but not Squirrels
This book deals heavly with differences in subspecies and in my MHO
has a lot of inaccuracies and contradicts itself from one chapter to another

Eragon
07-21-2010, 10:12 PM
I wouldn't describe the Borealis that I've seen as Accipiter like?

This looks like a good description of the different subspecies (if you believe in them ;)).

http://www.birdwatching-bliss.com/red-tailed-hawk-subspecies.html

rri32701
07-24-2010, 09:00 PM
I wouldn't describe the Borealis that I've seen as Accipiter like?

This looks like a good description of the different subspecies (if you believe in them ;)).

http://www.birdwatching-bliss.com/red-tailed-hawk-subspecies.html
I wouldn't either I was just quoting from the book.
That link just gave the ranges but nothing that would help where their ranges overlap

Zarafia
07-24-2010, 09:27 PM
Very interesting thread.
I'm curious about what Brandi quoted that "the wingtips of a Harlan's fall short of the tip of the tail" and Robert quoted "Borealis to being accipiter like."
Having measurement and clear conformation differences would help out a lot.
In my limited experience raptors, redtails especially vary greatly in their coloration. Raptors like the ferruginous have color phases that occur in the same nest, frequently. Parrots are much easier to identify LOL. Even their mutations are predictable and easy to identify. The first person to have a black, or even navy blue bluefront appear in a nestbox will make a mint. But these wildly varying redtails are to be found on every other power pole.
My first RT was a fairly normal colored girl till she began to moult her coverts. Looking at pics now I see that she got very dark indeed. But though I read about them and wondered, she was no harlans.
Cool thread.

Kurohyo
08-02-2010, 04:49 PM
I haven't seen a lot of harlan's, but this is Katana, Kylee's bird. I believe she lives in Fort Worth, Texas. Sorry for the poor image quality, this was when my camera was broken and I was using a friend's.

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4458/n1384061240109087837.jpg

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/9813/n13840612401090891324.jpg

REYNALDO
08-02-2010, 10:22 PM
i don't know much about rt sub species but i just want to say that the last picture posted is a very awesome looking bird! i love the color. the tail color and the dark color body just looks great!!!

canvibe
08-13-2010, 03:59 PM
http://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net/images/15907Red%20Tail%20Hawk%20Tail%20Feather.jpghttp://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net/images/68454Greg%27s%20Redtail.jpghttp://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net/images/7311Red%20Tail%20Hawk%20front.png

Here are a few pictures of my Redtail, I trapped him July 21, 2009. Both pictures of the bird are before molting, the picture of the tail feather is of one that has just finished growing in after his molt (which is still going on). Not your typical Redtail tail feather... Any opinions?

FredFogg
08-15-2010, 10:50 PM
http://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net/images/15907Red%20Tail%20Hawk%20Tail%20Feather.jpghttp://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net/images/68454Greg%27s%20Redtail.jpghttp://www.MyspaceImageCodes.net/images/7311Red%20Tail%20Hawk%20front.png

Here are a few pictures of my Redtail, I trapped him July 21, 2009. Both pictures of the bird are before molting, the picture of the tail feather is of one that has just finished growing in after his molt (which is still going on). Not your typical Redtail tail feather... Any opinions?

I believe the tail color is due to the wrap on the perch! :eek: toungeout :D

canvibe
08-16-2010, 01:09 AM
That's crazy, but now that I look at the pattern they are both similar. I hope for your sake you were joking. Lol

FredFogg
08-16-2010, 01:17 AM
That's crazy, but now that I look at the pattern they are both similar. I hope for your sake you were joking. Lol

Can't speak for others, but if you see toungeout and :D on my post, it means I am joking! LOL

canvibe
08-16-2010, 01:19 AM
I did see that. Was funny!