Hi from the UK

[Itchy]

Hi I'm Stu from the UK. My wife and I fly RTs and a European Kestrel. Looking forward to learning and sharing all things RT on a 'proper' forum. Have a lot of respect for US falconry and your native raptors - I just wish I could go trapping too!

Regards, Stu.

[everetkhorton]

(welc) Stu, a Rt. are outstanding bird! I was trapping today, only see 5 Rts. All haggard birds, four were real large. We can only take passage birds. Trapping is fun. Sorry you are not able to trap in the U.K. maybe someday. Thanks for signing your post.

[Augustine]

This forum is like a breath of fresh air(dog)Aug

[johntomo]

Hi I'm Stu from the UK. My wife and I fly RTs and a European Kestrel. Looking forward to learning and sharing all things RT on a 'proper' forum. Have a lot of respect for US falconry and your native raptors - I just wish I could go trapping too!

Regards, Stu.
hey up stu,(welc)

[thunderheartiii]

Hello and (welc) to NAFEX.

[Martin Hollinshead]

Welcome Stu.
Martin

[Richard F, Hoyer]

Stu:
From your post, the inference is that trapping of raptors for falconry is not allowed in the UK. Can raptors be removed from nests for use in falconry?

If raptors cannot be trapped and / or young cannot not be removed from nests for their use in falconry, can you, Martin, or others from the UK inform me as to the basis or rational for such restrictive regulations in the UK? Are such regulation primarily based on political considerations or are there some biological considerations used as some rational for such regulations?

I can be reached at charinabottae@earthlink.net if anyone would rather respond privately.

For some of us in the states, trapping raptors is almost addictive enterprise and an integral and worthwhile facet of falconry. A few years ago, an new falconry organization was formed whose main purpose was to protect the trapping of raptors for falconry use and to promote and preserved the different forms and skills used for tapping raptors. The original name of the organization was the 'Wild Raptor Take Conservancy'. Their name as since been changed to 'American Raptor Conservancy' but I believe they have the same goals. If I do not quite have my facts correct, others on this forum can revise my mistakes.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

[Tony James]

Stu:
From your post, the inference is that trapping of raptors for falconry is not allowed in the UK. Can raptors be removed from nests for use in falconry?

If raptors cannot be trapped and / or young cannot not be removed from nests for their use in falconry, can you, Martin, or others from the UK inform me as to the basis or rational for such restrictive regulations in the UK? Are such regulation primarily based on political considerations or are there some biological considerations used as some rational for such regulations?

I can be reached at charinabottae@earthlink.net if anyone would rather respond privately.

For some of us in the states, trapping raptors is almost addictive enterprise and an integral and worthwhile facet of falconry. A few years ago, an new falconry organization was formed whose main purpose was to protect the trapping of raptors for falconry use and to promote and preserved the different forms and skills used for tapping raptors. The original name of the organization was the 'Wild Raptor Take Conservancy'. Their name as since been changed to 'American Raptor Conservancy' but I believe they have the same goals. If I do not quite have my facts correct, others on this forum can revise my mistakes.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)

Hi Richard,

I'm afraid we don't currently have the option to trap a passage hawk, or to take an eyass for falconry.
It is so, as you might expect, because of political considerations rather than scientific biological reasons (although our protectionist organisations do maintain their objections based on fraudulent claims of rarity, endangered populations and so on).
When it was possible to take eyasses under license (the last license was issued around 1985 I believe), the thrill was, in my opinion, so much greater than collecting a hawk from a breeding chamber. The process seemed so much more in touch with what falconry is all about, to me at least.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Itchy]

Hi Richard, as Tony says, we are no longer allowed to take birds from the wild in the UK - yet anyone can buy just about any raptor they want confusedd

To be honest, I wouldn't swap my RTs with our smaller wild common buzzards even if I was allowed to trap them but that doesn't stop me being slightly envious of US falconers, not just because of the option to trap, but the license system also. From this side of the pond, it looks like the two compliment each other well.

I often speculate at the difference between training and hunting my captive bred RTs and working with a more experienced wild taken passage bird. There is no bird I admire or respect more than the RT and to be able to live amongst them must be a real buzz.

[johntomo]

Stu:
From your post, the inference is that trapping of raptors for falconry is not allowed in the UK. Can raptors be removed from nests for use in falconry?

If raptors cannot be trapped and / or young cannot not be removed from nests for their use in falconry, can you, Martin, or others from the UK inform me as to the basis or rational for such restrictive regulations in the UK? Are such regulation primarily based on political considerations or are there some biological considerations used as some rational for such regulations?

I can be reached at charinabottae@earthlink.net if anyone would rather respond privately.

For some of us in the states, trapping raptors is almost addictive enterprise and an integral and worthwhile facet of falconry. A few years ago, an new falconry organization was formed whose main purpose was to protect the trapping of raptors for falconry use and to promote and preserved the different forms and skills used for tapping raptors. The original name of the organization was the 'Wild Raptor Take Conservancy'. Their name as since been changed to 'American Raptor Conservancy' but I believe they have the same goals. If I do not quite have my facts correct, others on this forum can revise my mistakes.

Richard F. Hoyer (Corvallis, Oregon)
hey rich, as you said trapping of raptors is illegal over here as is takin' birds from nests,if you take a bird such as a peregrine from a nest you are lookin' at a large fine or even prison in some cases,however that dosnt stop some people robbing nests of raptors,legally your allowed to buy a captive bred bird that is i.b.r rung and registered and bred by a reputable breeder..trouble is over here you need no license not like over your side of the pond and any old tom dick or harry can buy a bird (and in most cases neglect or even kill these birds) i've heard horror stories about people keeping kestrels etc in budgie cages...the only legal requirment over here is that you have a mew where the bird can spread its wings in all directions,but no one comes around and checks these things...

[Richard F, Hoyer]

Tony:
Concerning what you term as "protectionist organizations", we have counterparts here in the states. They are usually referred to as environmental organizations. Such organizations have a number of legitimate concerns. However, an unfortunate aspect of some prominent environmental organizations is that in their promotional literature seeking membership and donations, they will sometime make blatantly false claims.

A number of such environmental organizations once claimed that the Bald Eagle (our national symbol) was on the "brink of extinction". Anyone with a reasonable understanding of the species would have known that was a bold face lie.

The Bald Eagle has about 2/3rds of its distribution in Canada and Alaska where the species never was in trouble. Had these environmental organizations specified the lower 48 states and not indicated the species was 'on the brink---', I think they could have been just as effective and thus been credible, responsible, and moral. But they didn't and with my set of values, I view the leadership of such organizations with compete distain.

Richard F. Hoyer

[Richard F, Hoyer]

Stu:
You mention being, "-----slightly envious, not just because of the option to trap, but the license system also." I venture to say that a large majority of falconers here in the U.S. would side with you and extol the virtues of our system with it governmental controls.

I have not really sat down and examined all pros and cons of this particular issue but I am a skeptic by nature. Just off the top of my head, I can come up with both good, bad, and some questionable points with respect to both our system and the system as I understand exists in the U.K. This would be an interesting topic for future discussion as long as participant kept the discussion civil.

Richard F. Hoyer

[Richard F, Hoyer]

John:
With some exceptions, the abolition of any take, either by trapping or removal for nests, of raptors that have self sustaining populations is biologically indefensible. Thus, regulations that result in a zero take of such raptors from the wild has to be based on emotional / political considerations rather than biological / rational considerations.

I entered falconry in the late 1940's and up through the 1960's here in Oregon, there were no tests, fees, or governmental interference. Any Tom, Dick, Harry, or Jane could participate in falconry if they so chose to do so. I do not consider that without governmental oversight during the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's and before, that the relatively small number of individuals practicing falconry had the slightest negative impact on raptor populations or the species taken by their raptors.

There may have been some obscure regulations on the books pertaining to the take of wildlife per se but simply were not enforced After all, our own wildlife agency in Oregon had pole traps (steel jaw traps on tall poles) at the two agency game farms that likely killed thousands of hawks, falcons, and owls over time and it was not considered a big deal. That all changed in the early 1970's as a new paradigm evolved in which raptors, instead of being considered as vermin, were considered a valuable wildlife resources as they should be.

Sometime in the early 1960's, the Oregon Dept. of Fisheries and Wildlife did begin to require falconers have a falconry license. But what was involved was to go to a local district or regional state wildlife agency office and they would take a fishing license, cross out the word 'Fishing' at the top and insert the word 'Falconry'. No fees nor any other restrictive measures were at play to the best of my knowledge.

Now we have all types of regulations and governmental interference some of which likely has some merit. However, it is my current view that most federal and state involvement
has evolved into bloated bureaucracies. As a wildlife biologist, it is my position that there is no sense in wasting agency resources (human and financial) on managing wildlife that is not in need of being managed. And that applies to the vast majority of non-game species of wildlife including most species of raptors.

I understand your concerns about abuses. But mistakes, accidents, and perhaps some abuses continue to occur here as well. I do not know if our type of regulations have or have not reduced the frequency of such problems.

It is my view that raptor propagators should educate (have care sheets) for those to whom they sell raptors. And perhaps the falconry community in U.K. could (probably already has) put out fliers or have web sites (forums such as this one) that inform the novice as to how to proceed with the care, training, and hunting of raptors. I believe you also have some type of falconry academies that operate for that very purpose.

As I mentioned, I have not given these issues the type of consideration and analysis that is needed to reach a firm position.

Richard F. Hoyer

[Augustine]

hey rich, as you said trapping of raptors is illegal over here as is takin' birds from nests,if you take a bird such as a peregrine from a nest you are lookin' at a large fine or even prison in some cases,however that dosnt stop some people robbing nests of raptors,legally your allowed to buy a captive bred bird that is i.b.r rung and registered and bred by a reputable breeder..trouble is over here you need no license not like over your side of the pond and any old tom dick or harry can buy a bird (and in most cases neglect or even kill these birds) i've heard horror stories about people keeping kestrels etc in budgie cages...the only legal requirment over here is that you have a mew where the bird can spread its wings in all directions,but no one comes around and checks these things...

All that said but the standard of falconry in the UK is high i believe.
yes we have problems as all country's.Most falconers i have seen over the years i have been impressed with(dog)

[johntomo]

All that said but the standard of falconry in the UK is high i believe.
yes we have problems as all country's.Most falconers i have seen over the years i have been impressed with(dog)
granted its a minority that cause the problems