Operant/Clicker Training

[hawkdog]

Just interested in getting a column started from anyone who has attempted or used clicker style training - see what is being tried - finding others successes. Last year with a passage RT, I attempted with great success and want to carry it further this season. While text I have read makes it seem complicated, it was quite easy for me. As soon as the bird recognized the call to the fist, I would hide the tidbit. When she would come, I would click then expose the tid. After only 5-6 times, the bird would land, look at me for the click, then once heard, would look at the fist. then I would expose the tid. She would fly back to the training perch on her own, I would click, she would look, call her back, click, expose. The first free flights and teaching to follow, the click worked in close, but not farther, so I transfer from it to a bright LED keychain light. Call to the fist, click, flash the light in her face, then expose. The transfer was easy. The first time free flying (hawk already key to the glove raising with or without the whistle), i would drop the fist when she was within 10' and turn and walk away. She landed on a fence post beside me, i clicked and flashed, then called her, then once on the fist, clicked and flashed then exposed the tid. The first evening teaching her to follow progressed like I have never seen in 15+ years of hawking. She would follow three/four times with a flash each time. I would walk 50' then I would give her my come forward signal (raised fist, then swung forward like "come on"). When she would come, I would walk away and as soon as the bird landed, she would immediately look at me for the flash, I'd give it, then walk again. The bird wouldn't let you get 25yrds before following without the signal. Of course every 3-5 times, I would call to the fist, flash when she landed then expose. This was the first evening. The next day my wife and I hiked the 90 acre farm with this bird following constantly like a dog. I then set to teach other desired behaviors using the flash method. In the middle of a field, I waited, bird 150 yrds away. I was just doddling around, the bird becoming impatient flew out over head and circled. I waved my bare hand in circles above my head (the signal) , then flashed repeatedly. She drifted down wind then back over, I flashed and signaled again repeatedly. The bird at about 50' or so above my head looking down at me knew what it meant and waited on. I called, she dropped like an elevator to the fist, I flashed then exposed. Lesson learned. 6 of her first ten rabbits she took from the same waiting on position, and will come out and look around when I give the same signal. She blasted her first season, and I am pumped as this one gets in gear. I know others have been experimenting with this new form of training and I am interested in hearing more. Before, I only had the call to the fist. No way to reinforce other desired behaviors. The clicker/flash concept the bird learned quickly, and it enabled me a way to say "good, I like what you just did. A reward is coming" then reward. The redtail is smarter than most give them credit for. Love to hear from you.

Kurt -Indiana

[dfarris]

Kurt,

I have always used Operant/Clicker Training (vocal clicking) since day 1. I pretty much use it for initial high level tidbits and hood training. When I first attempt to tidbit the bird...each time the bird swallows the tidbit (unhooded or hooded, I have tried both ways) I vocally "click, click". If the bird cannot see (hooded or in the dark and I give the "click, click sound" The bird starts searching, by try to eat where the high level tidbit should be or by searching the glove. The bird picks this up quick. Once the bird has picked this up I start hood training. Each time the hood goes on I immediately provide the "click, click" the hood comes off and the bird gets a high level tidbit. This works beautifully.

I have also used this technique to train birds who hated the hood to hood. For example: Assume the bird hates the hood and bates at first sight, (assuming the bird knows this conditioning of "click click"). I have the bird on my fist sitting quietly and show him the hood in my other hand as far away as I can so he will not bate. If he continues to sit quietly and nicely (make sure that him wings stay folded in and he is not leaning back or picking up any other bad habits) then I provide the "click click" and provide him a tidbit. I continue this process until the hood goes on the bird and the bird accepts it. You have to make sure that the bird is hungry and with some birds you can have that hood on in one session. Other birds it can take a few sessions.

Just my experience.

[Saluqi]

Hi Kurt,

I started a yahoo group a few years ago to discuss these methods for falconry use. There are some pretty knowledgable folks on the list, Layman, Jim Nelson and others. The traffic on the list goes from fast and furious to months of not a single post, there's lots of good stuff in the message archives.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OPC_Falconry/

Paul

[Bodarc]

Hi Everyone

I just started tongue clicker training now to introduce my imprint coop's to the hood. I am afraid to use high level tid-bits from my hand so I have been clicking, popping off the hood and tossing a tid-bit to the ground which she immediately hits.

Do you think it would lead to more food association and possible aggression problems if I were to use high level tid-bits from the hand?

[Saluqi]

Hi Everyone

I just started tongue clicker training now to introduce my imprint coop's to the hood. I am afraid to use high level tid-bits from my hand so I have been clicking, popping off the hood and tossing a tid-bit to the ground which she immediately hits.

Do you think it would lead to more food association and possible aggression problems if I were to use high level tid-bits from the hand?

No it won't cause aggression to use high-level tidbits. Food association problems are a popular myth when it comes to imprint accips. There, now that I tossed the gas on the fuel maybe some will throw the first lit match [smilie=smileys13.gif] ! I have limited experience with imprints, I have imprinted 2 gosses, and have fed both of them on the fist and with my bare right hand from day one - the result NO AGGRESSION. A lot of folks use McD method to raise their birds and then start doing vertical jumps to the fist for tidbits with no adverse effects.


Paul

[dfarris]

Johnny,

I have not had much experience with accipiters. I had one female coopers that I got from a guy that had cut down a tree with a nest in it. He was feeding it dog food…..different story. Not knowing much about coopers and really have not read too much about them I asked a lot of questions and kinda of went a different direction that what everyone at that time was telling me.

I was told never to feed it from my hand or off the glove or call the bird to my fist. BUT to always feed the bird on the lure and then pick her up. I trained her the same way I trained the only 2 birds I have ever had…RTs. I always called the bird to my glove (rarely to the lure, just for initial training) and fed her the glove and the bare hand and never had a problem. (This bird could have been a special case…who knows).

I used the clicker training with her for hood training and then ever once in a while when she displayed a good trait or response that I liked to reinforce those qualities or when she is on a kill and looks a little jumpy; I “click click” to let her know everything is just fine, offer her a reward and make in.

My concern with what you described:

“I just started tongue clicker training now to introduce my imprint coop's to the hood. I am afraid to use high level tid-bits from my hand so I have been clicking, popping off the hood and tossing a tid-bit to the ground which she immediately hits.

Do you think it would lead to more food association and possible aggression problems if I were to use high level tid-bits from the hand?”

I cannot answer your question about food aggression, I have not had enough experience. What I will tell you to be careful of is teaching you Coopers to hop to the ground every time you provide the “click click” sound. Think about it for a minute….You provide the reinforcement sound (click click), remove the hood and then toss the food on the ground. If your cooper sis not already hopping to the ground after you unhood and provide the reinforce, she will if you continue. That is fine, if that is what you want.

If it were me and I was concerned about food aggression towards the bare hand try hooding the bird , then placing the tidbit on the glove, provide the reinforcer and then unhoood for the coopers to eat from the fist.

What I have done with RT is create a headband with a close hanger (I do not like using a close hanger in fear of the bird hurting it self) and placing the tidbit on the hanger so the first thing that the bird sees when it is unhooded is the tidbit on the hanger. This way your hand will not be even considered in this process. Other people have used tweezers, or hemostats, instead of the close hanger. I still prefer my hand, at first they bite, (make sure you have a good hold of the feet, it is just natural for them to grab and hold there food to eat) but they learn quickly to be gentle.

Remember I do not have enough experience to talk about accipiters and I do not know if it is ok to feed from the glove or hand. Sounds like a new thred.

[kimmerar]

Johnny,

I have not had much experience with accipiters. I had one female coopers that I got from a guy that had cut down a tree with a nest in it. He was feeding it dog food…..different story. Not knowing much about coopers and really have not read too much about them I asked a lot of questions and kinda of went a different direction that what everyone at that time was telling me.

I was told never to feed it from my hand or off the glove or call the bird to my fist. BUT to always feed the bird on the lure and then pick her up. I trained her the same way I trained the only 2 birds I have ever had…RTs. I always called the bird to my glove (rarely to the lure, just for initial training) and fed her the glove and the bare hand and never had a problem. (This bird could have been a special case…who knows).

I used the clicker training with her for hood training and then ever once in a while when she displayed a good trait or response that I liked to reinforce those qualities or when she is on a kill and looks a little jumpy; I “click click” to let her know everything is just fine, offer her a reward and make in.

My concern with what you described:

“I just started tongue clicker training now to introduce my imprint coop's to the hood. I am afraid to use high level tid-bits from my hand so I have been clicking, popping off the hood and tossing a tid-bit to the ground which she immediately hits.

Do you think it would lead to more food association and possible aggression problems if I were to use high level tid-bits from the hand?”

I cannot answer your question about food aggression, I have not had enough experience. What I will tell you to be careful of is teaching you Coopers to hop to the ground every time you provide the “click click” sound. Think about it for a minute….You provide the reinforcement sound (click click), remove the hood and then toss the food on the ground. If your cooper sis not already hopping to the ground after you unhood and provide the reinforce, she will if you continue. That is fine, if that is what you want.



I'm not much of a clicker trainer myself (played around with it a little bit) but I've seen 1000's of animals clicker trained and 100's of people taught to use the clicker. Don't know all the terms.

If you're using the click the right way then the bird will know what you're clicking. The hood being on. In the beginning just work with the hood - nothing else. Once it has it down 100% then you can start chaining (adding multiple task).

If your worried about feeding from the glove for training the try a spoon or something else with the tidbit on it instead of throwing to the ground. I plan on trying a sharpie and I've been wondering about the glove thing myself. I could see problems coming in time from that - like looking at the ground instead of around for quarry. Not sure of that.

The hardest part of clicker training is timing. Some animals are really intelligent and can get around trainer errors. If you get an animal that does exactly what the clicker tells it to do (a white leghorn chicken is the BEST way to practice) then most trainers will see how their timing is not very good. A good way to practice using the bridge (clicker, whistle, light)is use a ping pong ball on a table. Bounce it and then practice using your bridge You must click everytime the ball hits the table. You can get many tries in one bounce. It's unpredictable which will make your timing better.

I was in a class and I was teaching a chicken to pick up a rope and drag a bucket of sand across a table. I was to the point of teaching the bird to grab the rope and hold it. I accidentally clicked when the bird dropped the rope and even though it was one time - that bird kept dropping the rope instead of holding it in it's mouth. Just an example of timing problems. Mistakes with timing can be fixed though - just have to step back a step.

Another thing - alot of people get repiticious (spell) about their training. Feeding in the center of the table - on the right side or left side - over and over and this can become an issue. Always change how you feed. On a chicken - if you feed in the center of the table everytime - the bird will start staying at the center of the table and wait.

The only clicker training I've done with a raptor was getting my last bird to go into a GH. Nothing else worked. Finally broke out the clicker and she had it down in 3 10 min. sessions that included introducing the clicker.


My father in the 60s and 70's was trying to find birds that could carry cameras (ravens ended up being the best) and different BOP were tried. He said to keep them fit they had automatic feeders that went off everytime they went from one side of the cage to another. He said the feeder was like a carousel and there was a tidbit in each cup that came around. After a little bit (he couldn't remember the time) exercising was fully automated. No trainer had to be around. Just making sure the feeder was loaded. He says he still has it and when he runs across it he will give it to me to play with.

JMO and can't wait to read more. The clicker is one of the greatest training tools there are. I'm not good with coming up with ways to get to the process done is why I don't use it more . I love the idea of the light as a bridge. The only problem I see with that is if you can't see your bird (I can't see my kestrel alot) in a location.

Sue at the Sonoran Mountain Museum in AZ is very knowledgable on clicker training BOP. She clicker trains all their BOP. She's flying a coops right now. I will ask her the next time I e-mail her how she presents food to her coops.

[Bodarc]

Kurt

This is a good thread you started. I'm very interested in it.

Paul, I don't want to risk it without some other comments from other people who have trained coop's but I think I will start using a long skewer or clothes hanger and high level tidbit instead of tossing to the ground.

Darrell, I have been clicking as I remove the hood.....your suggestion sounds better and I will try clicking right after I put the hood on as you suggest. Also I can see how tossing to the ground would start her hopping automatically which isn't something desirable......you really have to watch what you're rewarding for don't you? What you really want is for her to stand on the glove and look in front of her so she'll spot game.

Kim, I'd love to talk to someone experienced with coop's and clicker training or just training them in general. When you email her ask her if she might sign on here and answer a few questions and maybe give us a few hints. Also, I'll watch my timing as you suggest.

[dfarris]

Johnny,


I have have had a few hawks that look forward to the hood training and put there head inthe hood for me. I love it.

[awahl]

Has anyone out there tried to eliminate screaming using a clicker? I have no experience with clicker training, but am interested in learnign more about it.

[Lee Slikkers]

Ditto!

[kimmerar]

Let me think about that one. If your timings good and the bird knows the clicker you could try clicking when the bird stops (don't really like that idea but thought I would throw it out there) - in my little opinion though that screaming changes the birds mindset - won't respond to anything because they are in frantic mode. I am so new at falconry and I've never worked with a screaming bird. I'm thinking redirecting the screaming to something else - maybe hood the bird when it screams - wait for it to stop and then take the hood off - no clicker needed. Or put the bird in a giant hood when it does it. Maybe wear earplugs so it doesn't stress you out so bad and then you can actually take your time and work on it. Oh - I'm sure you know it but don't ever give food to quiet them down.

There is a group called Don't Shoot the Hawk on Yahoo - OC and clicker training BOP is the topic. I only read post every once in a while - but I'm sure there might be something in their archives. Honestly I've never looked to see if they have archives but I'm sure they do.

If you find some info please post about it.

[Jimmy]

Train it to scream on command, then never give that command. Steve Layman did that with some falcons, then sent them to a new home. When the new owner went to change a light bulb the falcons started to scream like banchees...... Steve's command was to raise his hands over his head..........

[hawkstir]

Jimmy,
What tricks do you teach your birds to do before sending them out? Dare I ask.

[kimmerar]

Jimmy - that's a great idea.

[Jimmy]

I do everything possible to make them as unsocialable, irritating, and noisy as I can. I have some secrets that I'm not willing to share, that makes them refuse any type of game, and revert to begging for their meals. In the case of the bird that Lee got from me, Cuda, I started showing her a picture of him as soon as she could leave the nest. When ever she ate, that picture was always beside her. It didn't take her long to make the connection........ :D:cool::eek:

That was my way of punishing him for taking my favorite bird.

[Lee Slikkers]

Ouch, where is the "love" around here! heck Jimmy, you don't want her, she only kills chickens and voles...pretty worthless imho ;)

[hawkstir]

Ouch, where is the "love" around here! heck Jimmy, you don't want her, she only kills chickens and voles...pretty worthless imho ;)

Sounds like the PMRT I have, except the chicken part.

[Jimmy]

pretty worthless imho ;)

which is why I sent her to you.....:)

[awahl]

Thanks for the responses folks. Somehow, I could not find this post again after I posted it. I did find a couple of interesting articles pertaining to these subjects as well as what Kim was asking: getting a falcon to wait on. These are by the lady that wrote the book "Don't Shoot the Dog". I am intrugued, but I really need to think it out beforehand. I really like the bird that is screaming, I don't want to screw it up.

Overview including info on screaming
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/282

Waiting on
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/66

[kimmerar]

Thanks Andy - that's my mom mentioned in the 5th paragraph BTW. I saw alot of this stuff but wasn't taught much so that's why I'm not a good clicker trainer.

Karen did a nice job of explaining that. See how some of you probably already do this without a clicker. Either Dave or Jeff throws pigeons when the bird goes up. The clicker only makes it clear on what the bird is doing right and it is a very fast tool if used correctly.

I've seen this article and I've heard from a great source (family) that Karen has not done much training herself with raptors. She has done alot of analizing and a good clicker trainer can actually come up with way to set up the training without training. I'm not good in this area that's why I'm not good at clicker training. Honestly - I haven't needed it - except to train my last bird to go in the GH. I know I've got it if I need it.

I'm pretty sure this whole thing was done at a NAFA meet sometime in the 90's. Apparently she wanted to see how falconers work with birds and wanted to give some advice. She wasn't greeted with open arms at the time from what I hear.

[awahl]

It sounded like there was a lot of "scratching of the chins" when it was discussed. The thing that I have a concern with is the fact that you are constantly rewarding with food. We have all been taught that food association is a big no-no... especially when dealing with imprints and food associated problems. There is very sound reasoning though. I do not see why it cannot work. It would have to be reinforced for quite some time to get the desired action ALWAYS I would guess. I am not sure. It is hard having a falcon that I really like, but am getting to the point of not liking to be around her because of her manners. I have done lots of imprints, and have seen it before, and will never like it. Actually, I like it less every time that I am around it. It might be worth a try. Can't make her scream more! She is very intelligent, and would pick it up quickly if she would pick it up at all. I will keep you posted if I give it a go.

[Hawkingcolorado]

I was thinking the same thing about food association. I'd like to get to be able to touch and do things around my FHH's feet more. She has grabbed my right had(tidbit throwing hand), when I'm messing with her feet on the perch. I wonder how it would work to touch her feet and then tidbit? Yikes...crazyy

[kitana]

I was thinking the same thing about food association. I'd like to get to be able to touch and do things around my FHH's feet more. She has grabbed my right had(tidbit throwing hand), when I'm messing with her feet on the perch. I wonder how it would work to touch her feet and then tidbit? Yikes...crazyy

lol you should start a new thread Tim, titled: painless OC! lol

I do exactly this with my birds to avoid them seeing my right hand as always having food in it and footing me in reflex. I HOLD the jesses tight when I work with the bird on the glove, and do the high-level tidbitting which often will lessen the instinct of the hawk to foot the hand. But the jesses are restrained! I use OC to desensitize my birds to physical manipulations, at first I reward for very short duration acceptances, then I work toward longer manipulations. It works.