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EAZFalconer
12-22-2010, 05:32 PM
Does anyone have first hand knowledge of an imprint Harris Hawk? If so, how was it raised and imprinted, and what were the problems created by imprinting? I am wondering about this with an AI breeding project as an end result, but several years of hunting prior to that.

Jimmy
12-22-2010, 07:29 PM
I'm guessing you'd want to make hybrids later on? Otherwise there's no reason for an imprint HH when it comes to breeding. They breed with each other like rats.

I've been around a couple of imprint HH's. And talked to several people that have had them, but I've never had one personally. Most issues with them seem to pop up after they become sexually matured. They can be hugely aggressive towards people other than their falconer. Think about every imprint horror story you've ever heard with other species. Those same things can happen with a HH.

frootdog
12-22-2010, 07:40 PM
A falconer here in TX many many years ago had an imprint hh. Long story short it ended up taking a little girl off her bicycle and causing a huge sh*t storm. The final verdict was the bird had to be euthanized.

Chris L.
12-22-2010, 10:25 PM
I had an imprint harris or partial improint THH that would donate regularly for me. I didn't raise him, he was given to me to place in my project. So I cant really tell you why he like to donate for me ??? He was a dream to fly and had great manners. I never had any issues with him.

Jack
12-22-2010, 11:27 PM
A falconer here in TX many many years ago had an imprint hh. Long story short it ended up taking a little girl off her bicycle and causing a huge sh*t storm. The final verdict was the bird had to be euthanized.


I remember that hawk, and the falconer. You could hear him coming from 6 blocks away too. She caught lots of jacks, but she was one that you never turned your back on.
Dennis Smith had one called Racheal, and she was just as bad, and he had one called Cindrella, which was my rescue, and she was absolutely insane.

Jack

EAZFalconer
12-23-2010, 08:44 AM
I'm guessing you'd want to make hybrids later on? Otherwise there's no reason for an imprint HH when it comes to breeding. They breed with each other like rats.

I've been around a couple of imprint HH's. And talked to several people that have had them, but I've never had one personally. Most issues with them seem to pop up after they become sexually matured. They can be hugely aggressive towards people other than their falconer. Think about every imprint horror story you've ever heard with other species. Those same things can happen with a HH.

You're guessing correctly, I would really like to try a gos X Harris hybrid. I would also like to try a redtail X Harris. So I am thinking it might be best to imprint a Harris female, but I guess it would work either way.

EAZFalconer
12-23-2010, 08:49 AM
I had an imprint harris or partial improint THH that would donate regularly for me. I didn't raise him, he was given to me to place in my project. So I cant really tell you why he like to donate for me ??? He was a dream to fly and had great manners. I never had any issues with him.

How was he trained? Where is he now? Would he hunt with other HHs?

Jimmy
12-23-2010, 10:14 AM
You're guessing correctly, I would really like to try a gos X Harris hybrid. I would also like to try a redtail X Harris. So I am thinking it might be best to imprint a Harris female, but I guess it would work either way.


For what it's worth....... the only gos x harris to survive any amount of time that I'm aware of, was made with a euro gos. And every redtail x harris that I'm aware of was bred naturally. I'm sure it could be done with imprints though, which means you'll also be wanting to imprint a RT. That's another can of worms right there. I'm working on RTxHH's now, but not with imprints. Best of luck to you when/if you do try either one.

EAZFalconer
12-23-2010, 10:48 AM
For what it's worth....... the only gos x harris to survive any amount of time that I'm aware of, was made with a euro gos. And every redtail x harris that I'm aware of was bred naturally. I'm sure it could be done with imprints though, which means you'll also be wanting to imprint a RT. That's another can of worms right there. I'm working on RTxHH's now, but not with imprints. Best of luck to you when/if you do try either one.

Are you using a redtail that was raised with HHs? And I'm guessing it is a male?

Jimmy
12-23-2010, 11:14 AM
I'm trying a couple of different things. Raised with, and without.

jfseaman
12-23-2010, 11:14 AM
You're guessing correctly, I would really like to try a gos X Harris hybrid. I would also like to try a redtail X Harris. So I am thinking it might be best to imprint a Harris female, but I guess it would work either way.
They've been done in Europe and England, Harris x Coops here.

I don't believe they have come to much but that could be the falconers.

What are your goals with the results?

What I call 'hybrid math', what characteristics do you think will dominate?

Example: (I do falcons)
Lanner: (good) smart, loyal, hit's hard, will go to ground, (not so good) light wing loading, lazy, hard to get to hunt.
Barbary: (good) friendly, gamey, powerful flyer, (not so good) impatient, independent, won't go to ground.

Barbary into Lanner: A bird that would lean toward the mental disposition of a barbary with the build more like a lanner.
Lanner into Barbary: A bird that would lean toward the mental disposition of a lanner with the build more like a barbary. A very smart bird, hard hitting, will go to ground, powerful flyer.

So, I would be less likely to make a barbary x lanner and more likely to make a lanner x barbary, as what I would want would be a more loyal barbary. Research and some personal exposure, these lanner into xxx crosses, seem to relize they have power and act accordingly. Of course that's a Red-naped Shaheen so....

I wouldn't hesitate to fly parabuteo into accipiter. I would recommend having a HH foster parent family setup. I've read that imprints are as bad as bad imprint pure accipiter.

EAZFalconer
12-23-2010, 02:01 PM
They've been done in Europe and England, Harris x Coops here.

I don't believe they have come to much but that could be the falconers.

What are your goals with the results?

What I call 'hybrid math', what characteristics do you think will dominate?

Example: (I do falcons)
Lanner: (good) smart, loyal, hit's hard, will go to ground, (not so good) light wing loading, lazy, hard to get to hunt.
Barbary: (good) friendly, gamey, powerful flyer, (not so good) impatient, independent, won't go to ground.

Barbary into Lanner: A bird that would lean toward the mental disposition of a barbary with the build more like a lanner.
Lanner into Barbary: A bird that would lean toward the mental disposition of a lanner with the build more like a barbary. A very smart bird, hard hitting, will go to ground, powerful flyer.

So, I would be less likely to make a barbary x lanner and more likely to make a lanner x barbary, as what I would want would be a more loyal barbary. Research and some personal exposure, these lanner into xxx crosses, seem to relize they have power and act accordingly. Of course that's a Red-naped Shaheen so....

I wouldn't hesitate to fly parabuteo into accipiter. I would recommend having a HH foster parent family setup. I've read that imprints are as bad as bad imprint pure accipiter.

I'm not too interested in a Harris X Coopers.

My main goal would be for young that are fertile. I would of course like the disposition of a Harris with the speed and agility of a gos. But the main advantage would be down the road adding genetic diversity that would allow for selection of the desired traits in the new genome.

keitht
12-23-2010, 02:36 PM
I received a female harris back when Harris hawks were rare and hard to get. It was several weeks old and I raised it as an imprint. (had no choice at the time) I flew her for 23 years. Most of those years in a caste. She was hands down the best bird I've ever owned. That said, I'd stay away from imprints now.

Regarding cross-breeding: Don't forget. Sometimes you may get the worst traits of both parent species. It can work either way.

BrianS
12-23-2010, 07:53 PM
I flew an imprinted MHH last season. Apart from the constant noise (when at home, but silent when out flying) he was great to fly and hunted well, even with other HHs in a cast with both males and females.

He was still in his 1st year when I got him, and I couldn't have wished for a more steady bird on the glove - nothing fazed him.....but I must admit the constant "feed me!" call when at flying/hunting weight in his mews was annoying.

Brian

BrianS
12-23-2010, 07:58 PM
I flew an imprinted MHH last season. Apart from the constant noise (when at home, but silent when out flying) he was great to fly and hunted well, even with other HHs in a cast with both males and females.

He was still in his 1st year when I got him, and I couldn't have wished for a more steady bird on the glove - nothing fazed him.....but I must admit the constant "feed me!" call when at flying/hunting weight in his mews was annoying.

I only had him for a year, so can't comment on any aggression/behaviour issues once properly, sexually mature.

Brian

mainefalconer
12-23-2010, 08:26 PM
Why in the world would you ruin a gos by putting HH into it?! toungeout
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

jfseaman
12-23-2010, 10:54 PM
I'm not too interested in a Harris X Coopers.

My main goal would be for young that are fertile. I would of course like the disposition of a Harris with the speed and agility of a gos. But the main advantage would be down the road adding genetic diversity that would allow for selection of the desired traits in the new genome.
Harris x Gos done in Europe, disaster.
Harris x Redtail, done in several places. Not an improvement for either.

What you are talking about with 'selection of desired traits' is domestication'. No problem with the concept.

I think you would do well to try to find an imprint HH that is a layer or donor. Making your own, for what you want to accomplish will take a very long time. Plus if what you want is fertile offspring, what do you do with the imprint after you succeed.

Good luck.

sven.d
02-12-2011, 09:23 AM
Why in the world would you ruin a gos by putting HH into it?! toungeout
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
i have a freind in england who is doing a tri cross hh rt and ferugenous first year at it but the offspring are looking promiseingrtsqrl

wingnut
02-12-2011, 09:42 AM
Why in the world would you ruin a gos by putting HH into it?! toungeout
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

I second that notion. clapp

sevristh
02-12-2011, 11:30 AM
i have a freind in england who is doing a tri cross hh rt and ferugenous first year at it but the offspring are looking promiseingrtsqrl

Sven,

Are you saying he's been successful then? Any pictures that you'd be willing to share with us?:D