Micro Tail-Springs

Hi Folks - has anyone else had a problem with the tail-springs on the Micro?

Up until recently I have only used the Micro as a back-up secondary Tx but have now begun to use two Micros together on tiercels & small falcons. Compared to the much stiffer P-max tail-springs the ones on the Micro quickly become sloppy even when new and this season I've had the transmitter actually come off - leaving just the tail-spring when the hawk has completed the flight and is back on the fist!

Robert - is there a way of improving things in this department?

Gerry x

I go to the Music shop and buy piano wire that fits the mount appropriately. Then twist it up into a tail spring(takes some practice) . A little epoxy and a shrink wrap and I have been good to go.

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Originally Posted by sugezwolf

Hi Folks - has anyone else had a problem with the tail-springs on the Micro?

Up until recently I have only used the Micro as a back-up secondary Tx but have now begun to use two Micros together on tiercels & small falcons. Compared to the much stiffer P-max tail-springs the ones on the Micro quickly become sloppy even when new and this season I've had the transmitter actually come off - leaving just the tail-spring when the hawk has completed the flight and is back on the fist!

Robert - is there a way of improving things in this department?

Gerry x

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Hi Gerry,

a couple of thoughts.

Firstly, I think I'm right in saying the actual tailmount for the micro is smaller than that for the powermax etc., so is it possible you're using the wrong mounts?
I've had similar problems on rare occasions, when using a micro in conjunction with the wrong mount.

Secondly, I love the spring-clip on the powermax, and would be very happy if that same gauge were used across the board (it's so much better than anything else out there in my opinion), but I guess the micro is designed for use on merlins and other 'micro' hawks, where that weight/size saving is valuable.

Regards,

Tony.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shortwingn

I go to the Music shop and buy piano wire that fits the mount appropriately. Then twist it up into a tail spring(takes some practice) . A little epoxy and a shrink wrap and I have been good to go.

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Thanks Eric but I'm not sure my wire-bending skills are up to that! :D

Gerry x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony James

Hi Gerry,

a couple of thoughts.

Firstly, I think I'm right in saying the actual tailmount for the micro is smaller than that for the powermax etc., so is it possible you're using the wrong mounts?
I've had similar problems on rare occasions, when using a micro in conjunction with the wrong mount.

Secondly, I love the spring-clip on the powermax, and would be very happy if that same gauge were used across the board (it's so much better than anything else out there in my opinion), but I guess the micro is designed for use on merlins and other 'micro' hawks, where that weight/size saving is valuable.

Regards,

Tony.

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Thanks for your thoughts Tony but I think you may be misunderstanding me with your first - the problem is with the spring becoming too sloppy with a little use and coming off the transmitter unit and not with the spring-clip coming out of the tail mount.

Secondly I wholeheartedly agree about the P-max tail-springs which are excellent. I would have thought that the weight issue would be negligible if Marshall upgraded to only a slightly thicker gauge wire as the P-max springs won't fit onto the Micro (I've tried!).

Gerry x

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Originally Posted by sugezwolf

Thanks for your thoughts Tony but I think you may be misunderstanding me with your first - the problem is with the spring becoming too sloppy with a little use and coming off the transmitter unit and not with the spring-clip coming out of the tail mount.

Secondly I wholeheartedly agree about the P-max tail-springs which are excellent. I would have thought that the weight issue would be negligible if Marshall upgraded to only a slightly thicker gauge wire as the P-max springs won't fit onto the Micro (I've tried!).

Gerry x

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Sorry, yes, I'd misunderstood completely.

I must admit there have been times when I've wanted to use a micro, but have been thwarted because the tail mount has been of the powermax size.
It would be great if they were interchangeable (I had considered using two tail mounts, one on each deck feather, to enable me to use either/or dependant on circumstances).

Regards,

Tony.

Gerry-

Could you upload some pics of this so I am clear on what seems to be happening?

That'd help in understanding the description, as Tony is right about the sizing of the tail-pieces: the Micro will work in a the Medium or Large tail pieces, with the larger receptacle, but it won't be as secure of a fit as it will be in either the Micro or Micro-Medium tail pieces where the receptacle on top is perfectly designed for it.

But if this is something different, related to the W-pattern attachment to the transmitter body that uses the three tiny undercut posts that are machined in to the bottom of the case to capture the tiny gauge spring, that'd be something new and we'd definitely want to see what's going on.

Thanks,
RB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tony James

Sorry, yes, I'd misunderstood completely.

I must admit there have been times when I've wanted to use a micro, but have been thwarted because the tail mount has been of the powermax size.
It would be great if they were interchangeable (I had considered using two tail mounts, one on each deck feather, to enable me to use either/or dependant on circumstances).

Regards,

Tony.

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Tony-

More and more people are using the Micro on larger birds, hence, the creation of the "Micro-Medium" tail pieces, large enough to fit the larger quill but Micro sized receptacle on top.

While the Micro can fit in the regular sized tail pieces if you needed to in an emergency (no other options that day), it's not as ideal or secure.

So, it's a decision as to if one believes they will be switching between transmitters and want to keep the options open, or, if one has decided to be only using the Micro on the tail all season long. The right sized tail piece is the answer.

It's my belief that the ideal arrangement these days for two transmitters is a Turbo on the back as the primary, and the Micro on the tail as the low-impact backup. At only 3.5 grams with battery installed, flat low-profile design and short antenna, it's the safest option possible for a tail mount.

And for a number of reasons, the UHF is about 3x the power of it's 216 equivalent, so those are being discovered as a long range option as well.

Just some thoughts on this. Hope all's going well in the green and pleasant land.

RB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sugezwolf

Hi Folks - has anyone else had a problem with the tail-springs on the Micro?

Up until recently I have only used the Micro as a back-up secondary Tx but have now begun to use two Micros together on tiercels & small falcons. Compared to the much stiffer P-max tail-springs the ones on the Micro quickly become sloppy even when new and this season I've had the transmitter actually come off - leaving just the tail-spring when the hawk has completed the flight and is back on the fist!

Robert - is there a way of improving things in this department?

Gerry x

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Gerry-

Could you upload (or send to me using rbi@marshallradio.com) a couple of detailed images of the bottom side of your Micro that's having problems, the three tiny posts? And a close-up of the spring?

It'd be good to get to the bottom of what's going on for you.

Thanks,
RB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RLBagley

Gerry-

Could you upload (or send to me using rbi@marshallradio.com) a couple of detailed images of the bottom side of your Micro that's having problems, the three tiny posts? And a close-up of the spring?

It'd be good to get to the bottom of what's going on for you.

Thanks,
RB

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Thanks Robert but pictures won't help you to understand the problem. It is a simple one caused I believe by the small gauge of the wire used. Even when replaced often the tail-springs quickly become sloppy and lacking in resistance (unlike the ones on the P-max for example) so are liable to come away from the three mounting posts on the back of the transmitter during a flight.

Gerry x

I've been using tail mounted micros for a number of years, have had more problems with the whole unit coming out of the tail feather clip, at least 3 times a season with my old tiercel hybrid. I've always figured it's been him messing with it while sitting on the block or me not getting into the clip properly. Friday while getting ready to fly the new tiercel gyr/barb, I went to turn on the tail mounted micro, all that was in the clip was the spring-I'm fairly certain he had been fussing with it, first time I've ever experienced this. Wondering Gerry, if possibly your bird/s are gnawing on the tranny while relaxing on the block, perhaps while preening, which would be the initial cause of your issues.

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Originally Posted by falcon56

I've been using tail mounted micros for a number of years, have had more problems with the whole unit coming out of the tail feather clip, at least 3 times a season with my old tiercel hybrid. I've always figured it's been him messing with it while sitting on the block or me not getting into the clip properly. Friday while getting ready to fly the new tiercel gyr/barb, I went to turn on the tail mounted micro, all that was in the clip was the spring-I'm fairly certain he had been fussing with it, first time I've ever experienced this. Wondering Gerry, if possibly your bird/s are gnawing on the tranny while relaxing on the block, perhaps while preening, which would be the initial cause of your issues.

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Hi Ray - on both times I have had it happen it was w/ the back-up Micro that is placed on the hawks immediately prior to the flight so no chance of the hawk messing w/ it. Thanks for your observations though.

Gerry x

Well that blows my theory out of the water!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by falcon56

I've been using tail mounted micros for a number of years, have had more problems with the whole unit coming out of the tail feather clip, at least 3 times a season with my old tiercel hybrid. I've always figured it's been him messing with it while sitting on the block or me not getting into the clip properly. Friday while getting ready to fly the new tiercel gyr/barb, I went to turn on the tail mounted micro, all that was in the clip was the spring-I'm fairly certain he had been fussing with it, first time I've ever experienced this. Wondering Gerry, if possibly your bird/s are gnawing on the tranny while relaxing on the block, perhaps while preening, which would be the initial cause of your issues.

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Hello again Ray-

Let's get you the right-sized tail pieces and I'm pretty sure this issue will be a thing of the past.

Medium sized tops will "work" but are not nearly as secure as the ones we actually designed for the Micro: in your case, with the larger birds that would be the "Micro-Medium" tail pieces. . .

When I know that a Micro is all I'm going to use on the tail of a larger bird, that's what I put on, and I've never had them come off.

Should I send a couple up there?
RB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sugezwolf

Thanks Robert but pictures won't help you to understand the problem. It is a simple one caused I believe by the small gauge of the wire used. Even when replaced often the tail-springs quickly become sloppy and lacking in resistance (unlike the ones on the P-max for example) so are liable to come away from the three mounting posts on the back of the transmitter during a flight.

Gerry x

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OK.

Although the reason I was thinking pics would help is to determine if there was somehow any damage to the tiny posts milled in to the bottom of the transmitter case. From what is being described ("tail springs become sloppy") having damaged posts the only way that could happen.

However, if a tail clip is coming off the body of the transmitter, it has nothing to do with the thickness of the springs. They are intentionally of a very small gauge. Everything about the Micro design is intricate and minimalist, intentionally. But if you look with a magnifying glass, you'll find the posts are undercut just the exact amount to fit that gauge of wire springs exactly, no wiggle room, no sloppiness. And when they are compressed and mounted, they are tighter still and it's literally impossible for them to come off. Unless of course, the posts are damaged, somehow.

I have used them for years on high flying hard hitting birds, have closely observed many others using them since the design was changed from circular to the W-shape back in 2005, without what you are describing ever happening, ever.

Also keep in mind that with now 100,000 transmitters sold over the years, you can imagine how have a steady stream of direct contact with customers about their issues, and that's what drives changes and improvements to the product designs. So it's always a surprise when a customer mentions something like this on a public Forum as an entirely new problem, something we don't experience personally or hear of happening anywhere else. We look for trends, for more than one instance, where we can better analyze and respond with a solution if it's an actual design issue.

If you'd rather not upload pictures for this now public discussion, maybe you could instead send us your Micro so we might closely examine it for damage, or replace it?

It'd be great to get to the bottom of what's happening in your case, but I can assure you with high confidence, it's not because the springs are too small.

RB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RLBagley

Hello again Ray-

Let's get you the right-sized tail pieces and I'm pretty sure this issue will be a thing of the past.

Medium sized tops will "work" but are not nearly as secure as the ones we actually designed for the Micro: in your case, with the larger birds that would be the "Micro-Medium" tail pieces. . .

When I know that a Micro is all I'm going to use on the tail of a larger bird, that's what I put on, and I've never had them come off.

Should I send a couple up there?
RB

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Robert,
I was using the Micro-medium tail pieces. I installed a back pack w/RT+ on this old(15th season)tiercel hybrid last year, paired with a leg mount RT+ and don't have the issues with the micro any more.
Ray

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Originally Posted by falcon56

Robert,
I was using the Micro-medium tail pieces. I installed a back pack w/RT+ on this old(15th season)tiercel hybrid last year, paired with a leg mount RT+ and don't have the issues with the micro any more.
Ray

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I see (said the blind man).

Well, I guess that answers that . . .

And that's the ongoing engineering challenge: come up with something the falconer can get on and off with little trouble, but then stays on and cannot be removed by the bird. Good to hear a solution for you was found.

And good we now have four options when it comes to mounting methods, instead of just two or three.

Hope the new season goes well for you up there,
RB

My old tiercel hybrid (18th season) can take his off the same as Ray's. And, yes I am using the proper Micro-medium tail pieces. He only does it at the beginning of the season when he isn't use to wearing it. He takes it off at home while sitting on the block. My solution is to bend the spring. This photo shows what it looks like after bending.

http://www.americanfalconry.com/Micro.jpg

Doing this makes it impossible for him to remove. Unfortunately the only way for me to remove it is to cut the spring. I fly him with the bent spring for the first couple weeks of the season, and when I needed to replace the battery I cut the spring, and replace it with a normal one. By then he is use to wearing it again and no longer takes it off. He has started the season this way for the last five or six years. It's a little inconvenient having to cut it off and get a new spring each year, but it's a small price to pay, because in my opinion the micro on the tail is an almost perfect backup transmitter for large falcons. None of my other birds, including my current gyrkin have been able to take them off.

Actually Robert if you wanted to make it a perfect backup transmitter for large falcons you could design a new case with bigger post so it could use the larger springs. It would make the transmitter a tad heavier, but it would still be more than light enough for use on large falcons. I don't know what this would take on your end, or if enough people would buy them to make it worth it. I know I would buy at least one.

Why not just wedge a small piece of rubber down inside the tail mount from the top so that you can't squeeze the spring together no matter how hard you try?

If you want to remove it you just push it back out the top with a paper clip
or something like that. As Steve pointed out, after the bird tries for a while and can't get rid of the transmitter it may eventually give up and accept it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RLBagley

OK.

Although the reason I was thinking pics would help is to determine if there was somehow any damage to the tiny posts milled in to the bottom of the transmitter case. From what is being described ("tail springs become sloppy") having damaged posts the only way that could happen.

However, if a tail clip is coming off the body of the transmitter, it has nothing to do with the thickness of the springs. They are intentionally of a very small gauge. Everything about the Micro design is intricate and minimalist, intentionally. But if you look with a magnifying glass, you'll find the posts are undercut just the exact amount to fit that gauge of wire springs exactly, no wiggle room, no sloppiness. And when they are compressed and mounted, they are tighter still and it's literally impossible for them to come off. Unless of course, the posts are damaged, somehow.

I have used them for years on high flying hard hitting birds, have closely observed many others using them since the design was changed from circular to the W-shape back in 2005, without what you are describing ever happening, ever.

Also keep in mind that with now 100,000 transmitters sold over the years, you can imagine how have a steady stream of direct contact with customers about their issues, and that's what drives changes and improvements to the product designs. So it's always a surprise when a customer mentions something like this on a public Forum as an entirely new problem, something we don't experience personally or hear of happening anywhere else. We look for trends, for more than one instance, where we can better analyze and respond with a solution if it's an actual design issue.

If you'd rather not upload pictures for this now public discussion, maybe you could instead send us your Micro so we might closely examine it for damage, or replace it?

It'd be great to get to the bottom of what's happening in your case, but I can assure you with high confidence, it's not because the springs are too small.

RB

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Hi Robert - my first thought was that one of the posts was damaged but close examination revealed they were fine. When it happened on a different transmitter (I have 3 Micros) and with two different hawks within a matter of days I suspected a common cause. I found that my two older Micros had a lot of 'play' in the tail-springs whilst my newest (1 season's use) although quite 'bendy' was relatively taut. I immediately purchased new tail-springs via the excellent Stephen Lea and the problem hasn't recurred. I really feel that 'stiffer' wire would negate having to change the tail-springs so often.

Gerry x

P.S. in no way am I trying to rubbish Marshall's products or service. I have been a customer for 15 years and have had my share of issues but have remained loyal to the brand. I am merely pointing out a problem where I feel it exists so that it can perhaps be rectified.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Jones

It's a little inconvenient having to cut it off and get a new spring each year, but it's a small price to pay, because in my opinion the micro on the tail is an almost perfect backup transmitter for large falcons. None of my other birds, including my current gyrkin have been able to take them off.

Actually Robert if you wanted to make it a perfect backup transmitter for large falcons you could design a new case with bigger post so it could use the larger springs. It would make the transmitter a tad heavier, but it would still be more than light enough for use on large falcons. I don't know what this would take on your end, or if enough people would buy them to make it worth it. I know I would buy at least one.

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Me too Steve - nice idea - I would swap in all three of mine as I tail-mount only these days and only use my two P-maxes on 28oz falcons and above - reserving my Micros for tiercel peregrines and falcons below this weight.

Gerry x

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Jones

My old tiercel hybrid (18th season) can take his off the same as Ray's. And, yes I am using the proper Micro-medium tail pieces. He only does it at the beginning of the season when he isn't use to wearing it. He takes it off at home while sitting on the block. My solution is to bend the spring. This photo shows what it looks like after bending.

http://www.americanfalconry.com/Micro.jpg

Doing this makes it impossible for him to remove. Unfortunately the only way for me to remove it is to cut the spring. I fly him with the bent spring for the first couple weeks of the season, and when I needed to replace the battery I cut the spring, and replace it with a normal one. By then he is use to wearing it again and no longer takes it off. He has started the season this way for the last five or six years. It's a little inconvenient having to cut it off and get a new spring each year, but it's a small price to pay, because in my opinion the micro on the tail is an almost perfect backup transmitter for large falcons. None of my other birds, including my current gyrkin have been able to take them off.

Actually Robert if you wanted to make it a perfect backup transmitter for large falcons you could design a new case with bigger post so it could use the larger springs. It would make the transmitter a tad heavier, but it would still be more than light enough for use on large falcons. I don't know what this would take on your end, or if enough people would buy them to make it worth it. I know I would buy at least one.

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I wouldn't recommend any one doing this, but it is possible to fit a larger spring to a micro, i put an RT+ wire on a micro to get me out of a jam, it was very difficult to do and did damage the minute flange's on the three posts, it was an older transmitter,so i went for bust. I don't suppose it will be any good to use with a proper spring now, that's the price of experimenting. By the way it was used on a back pack on a golden eagle and used for quite a few weeks, i expected it to get destroyed, the pictures were taken today.