Understanding...

Hey everyone,

I've been researching a lot about operant conditioning and positive reinforcement when it comes to falconry. There seems to be quite a bit of terminology and jargon that seems to go over my head. I was hoping I could post what I think I've learned thus far and have some of you more experienced folks pick it apart and tell me how far off I am!

Here's my understanding of the signals/process.

1. Signal: this is the command... a whistle, spoken word, etc. In this case, I will use a whistle.
2. Clicker: This is the "that's what I want you to do" signal. For this, I will be using an actual clicker toy (because those of you who call it a clicker and then use a whistle confuse me).
3. Reward: Tidbit, lure, etc.

To get the bird to jump to the fist, you start small. You get the bird looking in the direction of the fist. You whistle first. Each time he looks in the direction of your glove, you click the clicker and reward him. You then follow the same process for looking at the glove. Eventually, you move the glove away, place a tidbit on it, and whistle. If he leaves his perch to come to the glove, while he is in the process of flying to the glove, you click. He then collects his reward on the glove.

Is this correct? Am I out of order? Should I click when he gets to the glove? This is my understanding, but I feel that's just teaching the bird that when it's flying/hopping, that's the right thing to do. How far off am I?

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Originally Posted by SkyRider

Hey everyone,

I've been researching a lot about operant conditioning and positive reinforcement when it comes to falconry. There seems to be quite a bit of terminology and jargon that seems to go over my head. I was hoping I could post what I think I've learned thus far and have some of you more experienced folks pick it apart and tell me how far off I am!

Here's my understanding of the signals/process.

1. Signal: this is the command... a whistle, spoken word, etc. In this case, I will use a whistle.
2. Clicker: This is the "that's what I want you to do" signal. For this, I will be using an actual clicker toy (because those of you who call it a clicker and then use a whistle confuse me).
3. Reward: Tidbit, lure, etc.

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Your close. For the sake of conformity, here is the proper terminology for your list:

1) Cue
2) Conditioned Reinforcer (CR for short, or commonly refered to as just "click" by layman trainers and even some of the pros)
3) Reward.

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To get the bird to jump to the fist, you start small. You get the bird looking in the direction of the fist. You whistle first. Each time he looks in the direction of your glove, you click the clicker and reward him. You then follow the same process for looking at the glove. Eventually, you move the glove away, place a tidbit on it, and whistle. If he leaves his perch to come to the glove, while he is in the process of flying to the glove, you click. He then collects his reward on the glove.

Is this correct? Am I out of order? Should I click when he gets to the glove? This is my understanding, but I feel that's just teaching the bird that when it's flying/hopping, that's the right thing to do. How far off am I?

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No, this is not correct.

To use your example, training to hop to the glove strictly by the Operant Conditioning book might go like this:

Part 1
1) put the bird on a perch.
2) Get the bird to step on the glove by pressing the glove against its feet, etc.
3) the instant its foot makes contact with the glove, give the CR and as soon as practical afterwards give the reward.
4) repeat many times

Part 2 (after it very clearly gets the link between standing on the glove and getting the CR/reward)
1) put the bird on a perch
2) Hold the glove where the bird can easily step to it and patiently wait.
3) the instant it makes an effort to get onto the glove, give the CR and then reward. This is where some judgement and experience comes in. If the bird is eager to get to the glove, then make it actually step or even jump to the glove before giving the CR. If its showing reluctance, you may want to encourgage it by giving the CR for hesitantly leaning to towards the glove or even for looking at the glove.
4) repeat, and gradually increase criteria

Part 3 (after you get very consistent and rapid results when offering the glove)
1) Put the bird on a perch
2) give the cue (whistle or whatever) that you want to use to mean "please come to the glove" and at the same time hold the glove out as you had been doing.
3) Give the CR as soon as the bird is on the glove but ONLY if the bird has not come to the glove before you gave the cue. If the bird comes to the glove without you giving the cue first, do not give the CR, do not reward it, and put it back on the perch.
4) Repeat

This is a little counterintuitive, but there are some real solid reasons for not giving the cue until after the behavior is predictable. Its much easier for the critter to link the noise you are making with what you want when it is already doing it. Otherwise, its got to figure out what you want and what that noise is about all at the same time.

Its also important to understand that as you are working through training with OC, there is no need to get rigid about your planned route to your end goal. These three sessions as I outlined them, may collapse into one training session. Its also possible that you may be spending several training sessions at part 1 before moving on.

What ultimately is going on here is that when the hawk figures out that it can get you to give it food (or another reward) by doing something, it will work very hard to figure out how to get you to comply. From the hawks point of view, its training you to give it the CR and reward it by stepping on the glove.

Studies have shown that once the CR is established, you can give the reward up to 15 minutes or so later and the link will still be made between the event that triggered the CR and when the reward was received, although the strength of that link does diminish with time so the quicker you get it to them the better.

A lot of OC trainers like to spend a few sessions just making the link between the CR and reward by giving the CR and tossing a tidbit. This certainly makes the first few training sessions feel more productive because then the animal you are training already knows what the CR is when you begin working. There is absolutely no reason you cant introduce the CR at the same time you start a training project, but progress will be very slow for the first few session because it will not yet have the link its mind what the CR means.

This was the other way I had interpreted it in my head. I wasn't sure which one was correct. No better way to get the right answer than by giving the wrong one, eh?

When you introduce the CR, when is the best time to do that? I've always blown a whistle each time the bird has taken a bite of food the first few days to establish that relationship. Should I do that with the CR instead? Or should I wait until it's comfortably eating and then start doing the toss a tidbit and click method?

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Originally Posted by SkyRider

When you introduce the CR, when is the best time to do that? I've always blown a whistle each time the bird has taken a bite of food the first few days to establish that relationship. Should I do that with the CR instead? Or should I wait until it's comfortably eating and then start doing the toss a tidbit and click method?

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There really is no "right" answer there. Waiting until its comfortably eating works well, and introducing the CR from the very begining works well too. Ultimate the answer to your question depends on if you will be thinking that you are wasting potential time training behaviors using OC while you are letting your hawk get comfortable eating.

My falconry friends that understand OC extremly well and that use it for all of their training all the time get the CR established immediately because they simply dont know how to "talk" to their birds without it.

Oh, and when your establishing that link, the order is to click and then give the tidbit. The link between the CR and the tidbit will certainly establish itself if you do it the other way round, but not as quickly. You know this link is well established when the bird jerks in anticipation as soon as the click is given. This can be done while the bird is taking those first tenative bites on the glove, and it would even work to give the CR just as it takes each bite.

I dont know where you have gotten your info, so please forgive if this is not new information - but the click can be any stimuli that the animal is capable of processing and should be about 1/2 second in duration or even less ideally. A visual signal, a sound, even a touch. A flash of light works well with hawks, and I use that as a CR when I need to be quiet (like when my kids are in bed or I am sneakin up on ducks). A long lasting signal makes it harder to associate a behavior with what you want. In traditional training, "good dog" is used as a CR, but it takes so long to get that out that by the time you say it the dog may be doing something you dont want it to do, which then becomes encouraged.

So if you are using a whistle as your CR... what do you use for a cue? A different type of whistle (two short blasts vs 1 blast)? A hand motion? Word?

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Originally Posted by SkyRider

So if you are using a whistle as your CR... what do you use for a cue? A different type of whistle (two short blasts vs 1 blast)? A hand motion? Word?

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Personally, I use a very long trill on the same whistle as a cue to come in. It would be better communication for me to use a different whistle with a completely separate tone, but I am the sort of dumb bastard that would always be getting them mixed up. I just haven't found another audible signal I like for a CR that can be heard for a long ways off, and having a CR that can be heard for a ways lets me tell my hawk "I like what you just did" while in the field.

When working up close, a soft click of the tongue or a whistle made with your lips works very well too.

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Originally Posted by goshawkr

Personally, I use a very long trill on the same whistle as a cue to come in. It would be better communication for me to use a different whistle with a completely separate tone, but I am the sort of dumb bastard that would always be getting them mixed up. I just haven't found another audible signal I like for a CR that can be heard for a long ways off, and having a CR that can be heard for a ways lets me tell my hawk "I like what you just did" while in the field.

When working up close, a soft click of the tongue or a whistle made with your lips works very well too.

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How about holding the glove out as a cue?

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Originally Posted by jdrmd

How about holding the glove out as a cue?

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That works fine. But you have to then be careful to only hold the glove out when you want your hawk to come in. You could be scratching your nose one day and be very surprised to have your hawk hit it hard because from where it was sitting it looked close enough to the cue to decide to come in. I am not smart enough to use the glove as a cue and keep from accidentally setting it off and surprising myself. :D

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Originally Posted by goshawkr

That works fine. But you have to then be careful to only hold the glove out when you want your hawk to come in. You could be scratching your nose one day and be very surprised to have your hawk hit it hard because from where it was sitting it looked close enough to the cue to decide to come in. I am not smart enough to use the glove as a cue and keep from accidentally setting it off and surprising myself. :D

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Geoff,
You point is well taken. I try to only wear the glove when I want the bird to come to me otherwise its off. If I go in the mews to get her, I wear the glove, if I go in to change the water or do other chores I don't. She looks for the glove when I enter, if she doesn't see it she carries on with whatever she was doing and responds similarly in the field. As I get more experience that might change but for now...
Being a surgeon, I am subconsciously aware of my hands, especially with gloves on, because of sterile technique. I would never touch my nose with my sterile hawking glove :eek:

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Originally Posted by jdrmd

Geoff,
You point is well taken. I try to only wear the glove when I want the bird to come to me otherwise its off. If I go in the mews to get her, I wear the glove, if I go in to change the water or do other chores I don't. She looks for the glove when I enter, if she doesn't see it she carries on with whatever she was doing and responds similarly in the field. As I get more experience that might change but for now...
Being a surgeon, I am subconsciously aware of my hands, especially with gloves on, because of sterile technique. I would never touch my nose with my sterile hawking glove :eek:

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I guess then it is pretty aparent that I am not smart enough to be a surgeon. ;)

The cue can be anything that the critter you are training can percieve as being a distinct signal. There is a lot of reasons why your example of holding out the glove wouldnt work for me, but it seems clear to work well for you.

Its also important to keep in mind that the aninimal you are training will often pick up on cues you are not even aware of, and these can sometimes accidentally be given as well. As an example of this, I used to keep my hawk food and tidbits in a fanny pack back when they were commonly around. I kept my fanny pack in front so it was easier to get to. One of my redtails noticed that I touched my fanny back just before I called, and that became a cue that it reacted to far better than the raised glove, whistle, or even the lure. I nearly needed to get stitched up the first time I noticed the connection, because I was just shifting the fanny pack around a bit. I learned keeping food near your groin area is never smart unless you are a total masochist. :eek:

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Originally Posted by goshawkr

Its also important to keep in mind that the aninimal you are training will often pick up on cues you are not even aware of, and these can sometimes accidentally be given as well.

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Good stuff Geoff, I can't agree with you enough on that point!!! Developing and maintain a consistent routine is something I aspire to.

This collection of vids helped me understand a lot in less than 10 minutes.

http://www.artsandhawking.com/highleveltidbitting1.htm

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Originally Posted by frigginchi

This collection of vids helped me understand a lot in less than 10 minutes.

http://www.artsandhawking.com/highleveltidbitting1.htm

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Looks like that link is dead. Unless I'm just unlucky.

It's not phone friendly.. Gotta use a computer.

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Originally Posted by SkyRider

Looks like that link is dead. Unless I'm just unlucky.

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Ok so someone probably aready said this but I do t feel like finding it. Do you guys use clickers? I never herd of it. Again I have only trained one bird but is it better? Thank. Luke

Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk

Using a clicker can be a pia. You have to have it with you at all times around the animal you are training. Drop it, forget it or sit on it and you are sol. The clicker also must be in your hand to properly time your CR. Tough to do that with tidbits, hawk and whatever else you have in hand. You can simply click or cluck your tongue the millisecond the animal does what you want it to do. You will not lose, sit on it, nor forget it. Keep the sound consistent and it will have the same desired effect. Plus, you do not have to purchase anything.

I also like to wait a second or two after giving the CR to deliver the reinforcement. Repeat this over and over and you will get the benefit of dopamine dumping into the brain, then reward. It is an added benefit to OC and builds a patient animal. Those that feed quickly after the CR, get an impatient animal that expects it's food immediately after the CR. This can have some serious downside effects and you then need to reward each and every time. Varying the reward down the line once training; some little, some lots, and some none at all builds a very strong response, especially with a hunting carnivore.

I also hide the food in the glove. The bird must come to the glove to find out if it is there. Show the food and the bird can then decide if the reward is worth coming to you, or not. I do start training showing and then transition to not showing at all. This also builds a better response, along with varying the reward.

Hope this finds all of you well.

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Originally Posted by Falconer_hopeful

Ok so someone probably aready said this but I do t feel like finding it. Do you guys use clickers? I never herd of it. Again I have only trained one bird but is it better? Thank. Luke

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A clicker is great if you are new to operant conditioning. The Conditioned Reinforcer should be something that is easily perceived by the animal as a unique signal in their environment and should last no more than a second, and if it is quicker than that even better. A click from a clicker meets both of those parameters quite well.

The reason why you want a unique signal should be quite obvious. But the reason for a quick signal as a CR is not so easy to grab if your a beginner. The CR is a way to mark a segment of time and say "YES! that is EXACTLY what I want." The shorter the CR is, the smaller that segment of time will be. Now, at any given moment in time, an animal is doing or thinking about doing lots of things. The longer that moment is, there more there is for them to sort through and figure out which one it can use to get you to give it the CR (which is what is happening from their point of view).

As an example, imagine trying to train a screaming hawk to shut up. If you have a CR that lasts 1/3 of a second, you can tag the moment of silence between squawks quite easily, and with careful practice, those moments will get longer and easier to tag with the CR. If your CR lasts for 5 seconds, your hawk will never even have a clue what you are trying to mark because it has already started screaming again before the CR finished.

I do want to note, that as projects go for operant conditioning training, training silence is quite possible, and has been successfully done, but it is also one of the most difficult things to do for a variety of reasons, and you are much more likely to encourage screaming than eliminate it.

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Originally Posted by Cuz

Using a clicker can be a pia. You have to have it with you at all times around the animal you are training. Drop it, forget it or sit on it and you are sol. The clicker also must be in your hand to properly time your CR. Tough to do that with tidbits, hawk and whatever else you have in hand. You can simply click or cluck your tongue the millisecond the animal does what you want it to do. You will not lose, sit on it, nor forget it. Keep the sound consistent and it will have the same desired effect. Plus, you do not have to purchase anything.

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It is particularly a PIA in falconry. We are already handicapped being one handed because we quite often have a glove on one of our hands. Its quite tough to also have a clicker in other hand at all times. I haven't figured out a good way to run the clicker well with the gloved hand.

However, once an animal understands once CR, its very easy to add others. Just takes about 2-3 minutes during one training session. So you can use a clicker as a CR for those times when it is not getting in the way. Although personally, I have a dozen or so sitting in a cabinet collecting dust. I just find it simpler to use the CR that I make with my mouth as a base routine.

Mark's other comments are right on the money as well.

Slight correction to the previous post. A clicker is a conditioned stimulus (CS) that takes on the properties of a secondary reinforcer thru associative learning. Using CR will confuse the reader with the term conditioned response.

The need for a clicker in the field can be reduced by implementing a variable schedule of reinforcement. Of course a whistle can be used in place of a clicker, but there's no reason why an animal can't learn more than one CS

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Originally Posted by Bird_Dog

Slight correction to the previous post. A clicker is a conditioned stimulus (CS) that takes on the properties of a secondary reinforcer thru associative learning. Using CR will confuse the reader with the term conditioned response.

The need for a clicker in the field can be reduced by implementing a variable schedule of reinforcement. Of course a whistle can be used in place of a clicker, but there's no reason why an animal can't learn more than one CS

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The click is a Conditioned Reinforcer, and the abbreviation CR is appropriate, although it is also appropriate to use the abbreviation CR for Conditioned Response - although that term dosnt pop up much with discussions of Operant Conditioning.

The need for a clicker in the field can be reduced by implementing a variable schedule of reinforcement.


This sentence does not make sense, as far as OC goes. The clicker, or CR, needs to be used no matter what the schedule of reinforcement. Without the clicker, or CR, the reinforcement will not have the desired OC effect, as there is no expectation of reward. I do not mean to offend, and would use your name, but it is not listed. Unless your first name is Bird and last name Dog.

The reason to enact and ingrain the CR is to have the expectation of the animal that a reward is on the way. Varying the schedule makes the CR stronger. Varying the reinforcement brings the same phenomena as gambling to the human being in a casino. Most times you lose, sometimes you win and even less than the former and the latter, you win big. Gamblers anonymous has a large list of clients for a reason.

On a biological level, gambling is a form of hunting. Gambling preys upon the hunting instincts of the human to hook them into it. Copious amounts of hormones flood the system when you pull the one armed bandit. Lights, bells, whistles, etc. go off each time you pull the handle. This is the CR in Gambling. Without it, potential gamblers would walk away from the machine, without depositing another coin. Each of us falconers feel the same feeling when we are hunting. Most times, you do not get your prey, sometimes you do and less times you get the mother load. This is what gets us addicted to the sport of falconry (at least it did for this falconer). When the squirrel rounds the tree, rabbit flushes from cover or duck is spotted, the same hormones course through our bodies. Adrenaline, corticoids, dopamine and endorphins make us feel alive and well. If prey was ascertained every time, it would not be called hunting, it would be called getting.

My fourteenth kill during my first year of apprenticeship was a mink (my mother load). I have been addicted to falconry ever since.

As far as clicker training, the only time I have used one comfortably was training a chicken. The CR does not necessarily mean an auditory cue, but can be visual, olfactory or even touch. Auditory is the most used.

Hope this finds each of you and your birds well.

Sorry about not attaching my name to my last post. I should reveal that I have a PhD in experimental psychology and have taught the principles of learning to well over a 1000 students. Using the conventional abbreviation CR in Pavlovian conditioning and then as an abbreviation for a "conditioned reinforcer" would simply lead to mass confusion in students. I sampled the index in a few textbooks. Several listed CR under the topic of conditioned response, but no index listed CR as conditioned reinforcer. I was attempting to help people understand the topic, not to offend a falconer.

-- Scott

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Originally Posted by Bird_Dog

Sorry about not attaching my name to my last post. I should reveal that I have a PhD in experimental psychology and have taught the principles of learning to well over a 1000 students. Using the conventional abbreviation CR in Pavlovian conditioning and then as an abbreviation for a "conditioned reinforcer" would simply lead to mass confusion in students. I sampled the index in a few textbooks. Several listed CR under the topic of conditioned response, but no index listed CR as conditioned reinforcer. I was attempting to help people understand the topic, not to offend a falconer.

-- Scott

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None taken Scott. Please do not take offense, and I am in no way shape or form a Phd., but psychology is the study of the human brain, not of that of other animals, reptiles even insects or that of the conversation, raptors. Pavlovian conditioning is classical conditioning, not operant conditioning. Pavlovian conditioning is certainly a component of OC, but is not all of it. If you are referring to strictly to Pavlovian conditioning, the terminology could be different. When it comes to OC, I am sure. Look up Karen Pryor when referencing this info. She is the current guru and is followed closely by Steven Laymen, in our acumen.

OC does work in psychology, as does classical conditioning. The higher level of conditioning in both human and animal conditioning is most certainly OC. I have used both with humans and animals. Neither is used as a derogatory measure, and both has excellent results for both the human and the animal.

I am a dog trainer, but owned and ran fine dining restaurants for decades. I have used both OC and Classical conditioning with great success with both animals. I recommend using the same for every animal, even a spouse. It has worked for me every time, and is again, not derogatory.

First year tiercel gos is dropping feathers like crazy. He is my first intermewed raptor, and I am thoroughly enjoying it. The OC moment here is, he sees me coming, goes to a certain perch, leans like he is going to kill something, and does when I toss the meal. CR is my presence, reinforcer is the meal. Sometimes when I come into the mew, there is no meal. He still takes the same perch no matter when I appear, whether I come into the mew or not. This is classical conditioning, with varying reward. I may, or may not change this soon, but am enjoying the interaction, and lack of wildness in this chamber raised, free lofted tiercel gos.

I cannot tell you how fortunate I am to be doing what I do. I hope all of you feel the same way.

I can only hope you feel the same way I do.

Good luck to you and yours.

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Originally Posted by Bird_Dog

Sorry about not attaching my name to my last post. I should reveal that I have a PhD in experimental psychology and have taught the principles of learning to well over a 1000 students. Using the conventional abbreviation CR in Pavlovian conditioning and then as an abbreviation for a "conditioned reinforcer" would simply lead to mass confusion in students. I sampled the index in a few textbooks. Several listed CR under the topic of conditioned response, but no index listed CR as conditioned reinforcer. I was attempting to help people understand the topic, not to offend a falconer.

-- Scott

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Scott,

It was apartment to me that you had a background in psychology when you suggested that I had used the wrong term for the acronym CR. I certainly was not trying to down play your education, credentials or background. I also didn't have time when I responded then to elaborate much.

I am a life long science junkie without so much as one single college hour behind me, so take that as your point of reference. I ravenously consume science information, and love reading papers directly. Although I like that a lot more now that the authors of those papers no longer seem driven to write them in needlessly obscure language.

Operant Conditioning has it roots in research psychology, but it has diverged a bit, particularly in the flavor we are talking about. I have never gone back and read the original research by Skinner, although it has always seemed interesting to me. My source of info is actually rooted in the work of Karen Pryor (retired as a professional dolphin trainer who studied Skinner in college).

It does lead to confusion when acronyms can mean more than one thing. I work in the computer industry, and we use "overloaded" acronyms all the time. I was recently working with a group where the same acronym might have two different meanings in the same sentence! And often did.

I don't really know, since I have not read the base research, if this overloading of the CR acronym was in Skinner's work or not.