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  1. #1
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    Default Please Consider Joining The AFC

    I’d like to take this opportunity to invite you to join the American Falconry Conservancy (AFC). It is an organization that is working hard to maintain a wild take of raptors for falconry purposes and also nonresident take. The AFC is also working on ideas to help keep the membership more informed on important issues.

    Please visit the AFC website and consider joining today. I just renewed my membership.

    Thanks,
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    I know this thread is way old, but I just wanted to post that I just joined the AFC via the website. I don't know that the references I put are members or not, since I don't really know anyone that has talked about the AFC. I'm also a member of the State Club and NAFA, but from what I did research and could find that this club was also doing it's share so I figured what's skipping on one dinner out this month.
    Gregory E. Miller
    "Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, offer no apologies." - Teddy Moritz/Unknown Origin

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    I made application and was accepted about two months ago. This is a very good organization protecting Falconer's rights and has my vote in the future.

    Mr. John Shea
    Liberty, NC

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    I am a member of NAFA since 1977, AFC, and now the IAF which now accepts individual memberships. And IAATE, the voice for bird and raptor educators.
    Kitty Carroll -- The Hawk of May

    ~~ The essence of falconry is not in the flight or the kill,
    but man's relationship with his hawk --- Terance Hanbury White~~

  5. #5
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    Dan,

    Just joined AFC. No longer a NAFA member - looks like AFC is now leading the way...

    Not disparaging NAFA - just not my group...

    Cheers,

    Kevin
    Kevin R. Suedmeyer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconman View Post
    Just joined AFC. No longer a NAFA member - looks like AFC is now leading the way...
    I belong to both NAFA and the AFC, as well as a number of sportsman advocacy organizations who share an interest in issues important to our community.

    For me it’s simple. Us versus all the tree hugger and anti-2nd Amendment types who have a bigger bank roll and vastly out number us.

    Think about it and if you can afford the small cost of annual membership join both NAFA & AFC. Despite past differences both share a larger common interest, and from my perspective the small cost of annual membership to both is well worth the price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconman View Post
    Dan,

    Just joined AFC. No longer a NAFA member - looks like AFC is now leading the way...

    Not disparaging NAFA - just not my group...

    Cheers,

    Kevin
    Kevin,
    Maybe you should think about who has been fighting (and continues to fight) all these years to allow you and all of us to practice falconry in the manner that we enjoy today. NAFA has always been the driving force and will continue in that role. By not supporting NAFA, you are doing a disservice to all the work that they have done since the 1960's, not to mention riding the coat tails of the organization. Something to consider.
    Ray Gilbertson-Montana

  8. #8
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    Here is my concern:


    Scenario 1
    Let's say there are 2000 falconers in NA. All 2000 belong to this one organization.

    Scenario 2
    There are 2000 falconers. 1000 belong to one organization and the other 1000 belong to another organization.

    Which organizations will be the strongest? Obviously the one in scenario#1.

    My personal feeling is that if the AFC and its members divide North American Falconers into two smaller groups, it has weakened our position and influence. That's why I couldn't conscientiously join myself. I know many here feel differently.
    Keith Thompson
    Treat everyone you meet with dignity and respect....but have a plan to kill them just in case

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by keitht View Post
    Here is my concern:


    Scenario 1
    Let's say there are 2000 falconers in NA. All 2000 belong to this one organization.

    Scenario 2
    There are 2000 falconers. 1000 belong to one organization and the other 1000 belong to another organization.

    Which organizations will be the strongest? Obviously the one in scenario#1.

    My personal feeling is that if the AFC and its members divide North American Falconers into two smaller groups, it has weakened our position and influence. That's why I couldn't conscientiously join myself. I know many here feel differently.
    Ideally, I would agree with that.

    However the reality is more like this:
    Scenario 3
    There are ~4000+ falconers in. Less than 1000 of them belong to one organization, and that organization claims the other 3000 who are non members are apathetic freeloaders and thumbs their nose at them. Of those who are members, far less than 10% had any real influence and those who did have influence had a well earned reputation for telling the other 90% of the members to "shut up about what you want, we know best."

    Given that scenario, I don't blame some passionate folks for striking off on their own and making a fresh start. "Scenario 3" has begun to change in the last few years, but only time will tell if those changes will take hold.

    The reality of the situation is there is now two national orgs working on improving falconry. They - and their members - can either respectfully share the sandbox, or they can poop in the sand. Those are the two options. Using your two original scenarios, the only reason why scenario 2 is different from scenario one is if those two groups refuse to treat each other in a respectful manner.

    Now, I am not an AFC member (I am currently a NAFA member, but certainly no cool-aid drinking flag waver if you cant tell).

    Quote Originally Posted by falcon56 View Post
    Kevin,
    Maybe you should think about who has been fighting (and continues to fight) all these years to allow you and all of us to practice falconry in the manner that we enjoy today. NAFA has always been the driving force and will continue in that role. By not supporting NAFA, you are doing a disservice to all the work that they have done since the 1960's, not to mention riding the coat tails of the organization. Something to consider.
    Ray,

    With all due respect, I think you should have reconsidered posting something like this on the AFC sub-forum. At the very least, its in poor taste. Go to NAFA's forum to flag wave! Don't forget, 100% of the founding membership of the AFC were NAFA members who were tired of their interests not being represented.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by keitht View Post
    My personal feeling is that if the AFC and its members divide North American Falconers
    Policies within NAFA are what has caused past members to break away and form a new club. Just a couple of the issues are: NAFA's current policy that Falconer's birds are somehow, owned by the governments, a complete myth, exposed by the AFC and NAFA asserting along with USFWS that hybrid raptors are native, naturally occuring in N. America, and therefore under the MBTA, just because the FWS says it is so, in contradiction to court cases to the contrary. With issues like these, the question beggs, is NAFA sided with the Falconers or those groups that are anti-falconry?
    Jeff,
    Northern Black Hills, Wyoming

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharptail View Post
    Policies within NAFA are what has caused past members to break away and form a new club. Just a couple of the issues are: NAFA's current policy that Falconer's birds are somehow, owned by the governments, a complete myth, exposed by the AFC and NAFA asserting along with USFWS that hybrid raptors are native, naturally occuring in N. America, and therefore under the MBTA, just because the FWS says it is so, in contradiction to court cases to the contrary. With issues like these, the question beggs, is NAFA sided with the Falconers or those groups that are anti-falconry?
    AFC wants to eliminate all forms of regulation so that the system in the US is exactly like that of the UK. With no regulation on who can own a raptor, the take of wild raptors will be lost. This is not a surprising mentality for the AFC given the past and present leadership of the AFC, i.e., they make their livings off of breeding raptors. Same issue with hybrids, remove restrictions on hybrids that contain a fraction of native raptor, and suddenly the market for who can buy such hybrids increases beyond licensed falconers. I find the AFC's stance on these issues ironic given that they used to call themselves the WRTC, or Wild Raptor Take Conservancy.
    Paul Domski
    New Mexico, USA

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharptail View Post
    Policies within NAFA are what has caused past members to break away and form a new club. Just a couple of the issues are: NAFA's current policy that Falconer's birds are somehow, owned by the governments, a complete myth, exposed by the AFC and NAFA asserting along with USFWS that hybrid raptors are native, naturally occuring in N. America, and therefore under the MBTA, just because the FWS says it is so, in contradiction to court cases to the contrary. With issues like these, the question beggs, is NAFA sided with the Falconers or those groups that are anti-falconry?
    Jeff, show me the exact wording in NAFA's policies that says they support the government's assertion that raptors are owned by them! I don't believe you can!
    Fred
    "Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

  13. #13
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    Every so often I get to thinking how nice it would be to join a national falconry organization, socialize with like minded individuals, maybe meet people who I can respect and learn a thing or two from. Maybe contribute something to this sport I love.

    Then a NAFA / AFC thread comes up and the pettiness, tribalism, us v. themness and sanctimony on display remind me why I have never joined. Every thread is dominated by three types of people: the NAFA is terrible because reasons people, the AFC is terrible because reasons people, and the if you are not a NAFA member you are leaching off Those Who Went Before You and how dare you not step in line with what you are told is important people.

    I know there are good people working hard in each organization but frankly I cant get past the pettiness displayed by the partisans. No thank you.
    Jacob L'Etoile
    Western MA

  14. #14
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    Geoff,
    I was responding to Kevins' post in this thread. My post suddenly popping up in a sub forum that has no relevance to anything posted there wouldn't make much sense, don't you think?
    Ray Gilbertson-Montana

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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon56 View Post
    Geoff,
    I was responding to Kevins' post in this thread. My post suddenly popping up in a sub forum that has no relevance to anything posted there wouldn't make much sense, don't you think?
    Perhaps, but it would not have caused any confusion at all to just not say anything.

    Just something to consider...
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

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    Quote Originally Posted by goshawkr View Post
    Perhaps, but it would not have caused any confusion at all to just not say anything.

    Just something to consider...
    If you subscribe to that line of thinking, maybe Kevin, or anybody else for that matter should never have expressed an opinion on anything at all, which would make this whole NAFEX moot. Oh wait, what would that do to freedom of speech?
    Ray Gilbertson-Montana

  17. #17
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    I have no place really in this but I have thought about joining both. The arguments between the two don't matter to me a bit. I know that both in thier own right are working to preserve the art/sport.
    But logic suggests that one club or organization, with members working together, consolidating funds and focusing on the big issues that plague the sport/art would be more successful. Instead of two clubs picking thier own issues. What matters is the preservation of falconry for those active in its presuit and the ones that will build the future.

  18. #18
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    Seriously kids? Way to convince people either way. Arguing like twelve year old girls on the internet. If you disagree with the afc and its policies keep your damn mouths shut. And the same if you disagree with nafa. Save that for private conversations. Somebody outta punch y'all in the throat. Hang on for a couple more months and you can go back to flying birds. Mods should delete every post in here except the first one. Then close it. You can leave mine though. As a reminder about arguing online
    Jordan Turner.(cooler than a polar bears toe nails)

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    Quote Originally Posted by xjturnerx View Post
    Somebody outta punch y'all in the throat.
    Great way to constructively and maturely add to what is obviously a sensitive thread.
    Bill
    I have been known to approach the east...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dboyrollz76 View Post
    I have no place really in this but I have thought about joining both. The arguments between the two don't matter to me a bit. I know that both in thier own right are working to preserve the art/sport.
    But logic suggests that one club or organization, with members working together, consolidating funds and focusing on the big issues that plague the sport/art would be more successful. Instead of two clubs picking thier own issues. What matters is the preservation of falconry for those active in its presuit and the ones that will build the future.
    Derek,

    Your observation is on point and I struggled with this division of efforts issue at one time as well. The deciding factor for me was the realization that, while generally both clubs have more in common than not there are some core beliefs that are simply not the same.

    For me some of these beliefs were important not just as a falconer but as a citizen and I felt I had no representation and support in these matters. I joined American Falconry Coservancy when I discovered that not only did they have many of these same core beliefs, but supported and fought for them during the federal regulatory rule making process. Falconry is a very important part of my life, I am member of two state clubs and two federal clubs and I cant say I agree with all things about all the clubs all the time but the annual dues don't make me miss any meals.

    IMHO $35 year for AFC membership is money well spent for a rights oriented club to defend my liberty as a citizen and a falconer.
    Troy

  21. #21
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    But Kevin, aren't you heading up NAFA's 2015 field meet in Kansas?

    Bill Boni

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    Uh, I joined both and don't really care about all of your petty disagreements. Both clubs try to do good things for the sport and uphold a tradition. Sounds to me like too many feelings are hurt.

    This is like when a candidate from party A wins an election because party B nominated someone and had a pissed off person go on campaigning as a write-in and divide party B's votes to a point where party A wins. We're all falconers, we're all people, at the end of the day we want to be able to trap/buy and fly birds. Why so much bickering. I've seen kids go to timeout for arguing like this...
    Boomer
    Quote Originally Posted by keitht View Post
    It doesn't bother me traveling in wilderness alone. It bothers others. I think it would be a great way to die.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducksanddogs View Post
    Uh, I joined both and don't really care about all of your petty disagreements. Both clubs try to do good things for the sport and uphold a tradition. Sounds to me like too many feelings are hurt.

    This is like when a candidate from party A wins an election because party B nominated someone and had a pissed off person go on campaigning as a write-in and divide party B's votes to a point where party A wins. We're all falconers, we're all people, at the end of the day we want to be able to trap/buy and fly birds. Why so much bickering. I've seen kids go to timeout for arguing like this...
    By all means let us squabble privately where we disagree, but for the sake of the sport let us show a united front to the public and to the regulatory agencies where we can agree (or even where we can just meet at a compromise in the name of appearing to show a united front).
    Tom Munson, Buckeye, AZ
    619-379-2656, tom@munson.us

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Gizmo View Post
    By all means let us squabble privately where we disagree, but for the sake of the sport let us show a united front to the public and to the regulatory agencies where we can agree (or even where we can just meet at a compromise in the name of appearing to show a united front).
    Well said.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Gizmo View Post
    By all means let us squabble privately where we disagree, but for the sake of the sport let us show a united front to the public and to the regulatory agencies where we can agree (or even where we can just meet at a compromise in the name of appearing to show a united front).
    I decided to add to this a bit. Falconers constitute such a minimal amount of votes that politicians pretty much l laugh us off like spilled water in an expensive restaurant. There are so few of us that we are not really an effective lobbying force against animal rights groups even when we DO stick together so the reality is that we had better stick together or risk being singled out like the one lame gazelle in the herd.

    I am a member of both NAFA and AFC. To be honest their political agendas are a bit different and I have some issues with BOTH when
    their priority list doesn't match my own. On the other hand I get
    even more frustrated with falconers who decide they are not going to
    support either (or both...) because their agendas don't precisely match their own or because they are not currently addressing something that is
    important to that individual.

    Guess what folks, ever hear that saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water? I am not fond of the antiquated NAFA structure where the president is not elected by the members but by the board. That seems to me a bit like an extension of the old boy network and reminiscent of tweed clad falconers with pipes and glasses of single malt scotch deciding who is is practicing falconry up to standard. That old school crap was elitism and I am not fond of it. Now having said my piece, I am not going to effect any change from outside so I pay my dues, participate as much as I can and when I step back and look closely I can see that things HAVE changed for the better. Things are generally moving in a positive direction even if not at a speed that I am totally happy with.

    So if you want to snipe over some beers when you are with your falconry buddies go for it. When it comes time to sit down with legislators and law enforcement I suggest that everyone show up willing to avoid giving any
    sense that he falconry community is in any way divided.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkumetz View Post
    I decided to add to this a bit. Falconers constitute such a minimal amount of votes that politicians pretty much l laugh us off like spilled water in an expensive restaurant. There are so few of us that we are not really an effective lobbying force against animal rights groups even when we DO stick together so the reality is that we had better stick together or risk being singled out like the one lame gazelle in the herd.

    I am a member of both NAFA and AFC. To be honest their political agendas are a bit different and I have some issues with BOTH when
    their priority list doesn't match my own. On the other hand I get
    even more frustrated with falconers who decide they are not going to
    support either (or both...) because their agendas don't precisely match their own or because they are not currently addressing something that is
    important to that individual.

    Guess what folks, ever hear that saying about throwing the baby out with the bath water? I am not fond of the antiquated NAFA structure where the president is not elected by the members but by the board. That seems to me a bit like an extension of the old boy network and reminiscent of tweed clad falconers with pipes and glasses of single malt scotch deciding who is is practicing falconry up to standard. That old school crap was elitism and I am not fond of it. Now having said my piece, I am not going to effect any change from outside so I pay my dues, participate as much as I can and when I step back and look closely I can see that things HAVE changed for the better. Things are generally moving in a positive direction even if not at a speed that I am totally happy with.

    So if you want to snipe over some beers when you are with your falconry buddies go for it. When it comes time to sit down with legislators and law enforcement I suggest that everyone show up willing to avoid giving any
    sense that he falconry community is in any way divided.


    That's pretty much what I was trying to say 8 months ago!
    Boomer
    Quote Originally Posted by keitht View Post
    It doesn't bother me traveling in wilderness alone. It bothers others. I think it would be a great way to die.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducksanddogs View Post
    That's pretty much what I was trying to say 8 months ago!
    Yes but I have aspergers so I am not afraid of offending people.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

  28. #28
    dboyrollz76 Guest

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    I don't know any of the people in nafa or the afc. But from what I read and hear there has been a lot of division among the two.
    But the thing I hate the most is how the knowledge and power used and possess by some is directeted at personal gain and protection of their values. Not for falconry.
    Hate me if you want, dont really care. Most do!
    But y'all better hope I don't get a half million dollars to give to Horn. Cuz I'll leave a bad taste in a bunch of folks mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dboyrollz76 View Post
    I don't know any of the people in nafa or the afc. But from what I read and hear there has been a lot of division among the two.
    But the thing I hate the most is how the knowledge and power used and possess by some is directeted at personal gain and protection of their values. Not for falconry.
    Hate me if you want, dontreally
    Derek,
    The most important thing that we as falconers must do is to not take the word of a vocal minority who are bitter, disgruntled and unwilling to compromise for their (our) own good. Divisive politics is bad across the board. Just look at the current presidential race and imagine that falconers look a bit like the republican debate when we talk to USFWS and state officials. Not that the democrats are any better but since falconers all have their own opinion the plethora of disagreeing parties among falconers is in the current example more like the republicans. (BTW this is just an example, not a political statement of any kind)

    If you don't participate in the organizations that step forward to represent falconry then you are just like people who don't bother to vote because their perfect candidate is not running. At least if you participate you can try to influence the direction that those organizations are going.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

  30. #30
    dboyrollz76 Guest

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    I don't really think it's about who's better or has better opinions. I think it's because there one blueberry Lollie pop left and there fightin over who gets it.

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