Releasing imprints

[wingnut]

As we are experiencing a down cycle in CT's in my area I am thinking about flying a smaller bird-catching hawk or falcon and wait another year to replace my last gos. I would like to imprint a tiercel prairie or maybe a coop but I would also like to be able to release it later on. I have always assumed that one should not imprint a hawk if you plan to release it and I have lived by that assumption in all my choices of birds. I recall a thread not too long ago where this topic was kicked around a little. I don't remember what the original thread was about so I couldn't find it. What information do any of you have about this? Thanks

[Dirthawking]

I would assume that it would depend on the type of imprinting done.

[wingnut]

I would assume that it would depend on the type of imprinting done.

True. I would assume that the earlier the eyas is taken the harder (if I may use that term) the imprint. It is also my understanding that at some point imprinting would not take place. As in branchers etc. I really enjoy the experience of raising the eyas and also the tame hack. I would like to do both, rear the eyas and tame hack the bird but still have the option of releasing it.

[jfseaman]

As we are experiencing a down cycle in CT's in my area I am thinking about flying a smaller bird-catching hawk or falcon and wait another year to replace my last gos. I would like to imprint a tiercel prairie or maybe a coop but I would also like to be able to release it later on. I have always assumed that one should not imprint a hawk if you plan to release it and I have lived by that assumption in all my choices of birds. I recall a thread not too long ago where this topic was kicked around a little. I don't remember what the original thread was about so I couldn't find it. What information do any of you have about this? Thanks

My personal belief is that if the imprinting is done 'properly' it would be improper to release the imprint.

If it got hungry it would seek a human
It would never participate in the wild gene pool
It may not have enough fear to avoid predation

Before contemplating release of a bird, look at the future of the birds welfare.

Plus, why waste it. After a successful falconry career and imprint can find useful life as a contributor to the captive bred gene pool.

[Dirthawking]

Ikay.....I'll bite. Playing devils advocate here.

My personal belief is that if the imprinting is done 'properly' it would be improper to release the imprint.

Define "properly". Your definition might differ from mine or from somebody else's. Depends on what you want out of the bird.

If it got hungry it would seek a human

Again, depends on how it was imprinted would it not?

It would never participate in the wild gene pool

This might be a good thing. Again, depends on the bird. Besides, I know of no LONG term studies on imprints breeding.

It may not have enough fear to avoid predation

From what? Other birds? Again, depends on the imprint process.

Before contemplating release of a bird, look at the future of the birds welfare.

Agreed. But just because it is imprinted, does not mean anything. I look at this with passage birds too.

Plus, why waste it. After a successful falconry career and imprint can find useful life as a contributor to the captive bred gene pool.

It might not be a good candidate for a breeding program. Again, to many if's to say for sure. I have seen captive breed birds that would make terrible breeders.

[KidK]

Doug,

I put in the topic of this thread "Releasing Imprints" into the search here and got this.. I think this is the thread you were looking for..

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?...asing+imprints

It was in the imprint section titled "Return to the Wild".

Hope this helps.

[jfseaman]

Ikay.....I'll bite. Playing devils advocate here.

Define "properly". Your definition might differ from mine or from somebody else's. Depends on what you want out of the bird.

"Properly" would be to remove fear of humans and things around humans but of course even that can vary by degrees and still be a good bird.

Again, depends on how it was imprinted would it not?

Of course

This might be a good thing. Again, depends on the bird. Besides, I know of no LONG term studies on imprints breeding.

Yeah

From what? Other birds? Again, depends on the imprint process.

Yup

Agreed. But just because it is imprinted, does not mean anything. I look at this with passage birds too.

Yup

It might not be a good candidate for a breeding program. Again, to many if's to say for sure. I have seen captive breed birds that would make terrible breeders.

Yup

[Dirthawking]

Jeez Fred. Just trying to have a discussion here. Yup.

[wingnut]

Doug,

I put in the topic of this thread "Releasing Imprints" into the search here and got this.. I think this is the thread you were looking for..

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?...asing+imprints

It was in the imprint section titled "Return to the Wild".

Hope this helps.

Thanks Kory. It would seem that there is no definitive information on this subject. In other words, sometimes it works out and other times it doesn't. I can see where a rehabber would be motivated to release an imprint because that is after all what they do and there is only so much room for educational birds. As a falconer I would want to do what is most likely to be in the birds best interest and imprinting the bird may not be in their best interest if I intend to release it.

As I recall though the thread I was thinking of was dealing with an imprint kestrel that the falconer felt compelled to keep because it couldn't be released but some on the forum were of the belief that this was not true.

[KidK]

As I recall though the thread I was thinking of was dealing with an imprint kestrel that the falconer felt compelled to keep because it couldn't be released but some on the forum were of the belief that this was not true.

Found that one too..

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?...asing+imprints

[Meagan]

Just my .02 so take it for what its worth. I have my first imprint kestrel, which was actually not raised by myself until she was well into her 3rd week at least. She was raised by an older couple who found her and did not realize it was illegal. After getting her onto my permit everything changed. However, I would never consider releasing her. She's too vocal, she begs way too much and even after stopping all food association with her she still begs and screams, even when she is now at her fat weight.

I have never truly believed in releasing an imprint. Then again I have only been in this sport going on 4 years now, but I've never believed in the release of imprints. I've never done it, and I'm wanting to do a tame hack at some point in time. But not until I've got enough land and space to do it properly. I think with the right advice and direction it could be done, McDermott does it with his bird. Who knows, good luck with it...

[Joby]

I've heard that imprinted accipiters have a better chance of being returned to the wild than falcons or buteos. In fact, I'm pretty certain that imprinted buteos CAN'T be returned to the wild.

[Dirthawking]

In fact, I'm pretty certain that imprinted buteos CAN'T be returned to the wild.

How so/why?

[Todd Brown]

I just got my eyas RT back after 4 months of him riding the air waves.

He's imprinted.( possibly double imprint. he fell out of the nest when half feathered out)

I't doesent appear that he got in "much" trouble while he was gone. He was seen once looking over some chickens but wild RT's will do this. The draw back here I think is he may not be affraid enough to fly away when the chicken farmer comes out looking to bag the chicken hawk with a shotgun.

He came in an ounce over his fly weight.

[jfseaman]

I just got my eyas RT back after 4 months of him riding the air waves.

He's imprinted.( possibly double imprint. he fell out of the nest when half feathered out)

I't doesent appear that he got in "much" trouble while he was gone. He was seen once looking over some chickens but wild RT's will do this. The draw back here I think is he may not be affraid enough to fly away when the chicken farmer comes out looking to bag the chicken hawk with a shotgun.

He came in an ounce over his fly weight.

And that's the rub to releasing imprints. Yours was 'properly' imprinted. That lack of fear will get them killed, of course, life in the wild will get them killed so what's the difference?

With anything other than an accipiter or kestrel, there is also the potential problem of the hawk or falcon becoming a danger to humans or the 'pets' of humans. A falcon with no fear of humans, showing up on someones deck trying to kill the parakeet in the cage, of course wild birds do this so what's the difference?

Well, so what's the difference?

Umm, I could use a tiercel prairie voluntary donor.

[Jack]

I don't think anyone really knows that much about imprinting or what happens when you release one. You hear about different kinds of imprinting, but I have to ask, what is the real difference? Imprinting is imprinting.
In reality, raptors have no idea what they are. It never enters into their thinking I would expect. They just go with what they find familiar to them. Imprinting will not eleminate fear either. The reason a very young hawk shows less fear is that he can not focus his eyes yet and so can't really see you. Once that changes it is instantly fearful of what it does not know. You can hatch the egg yourself and it will still start showing fear once it can see.
I once had a female goshawk that was take as a brancher that could actually fly a little. She imprinted and she laid eggs for me. So this makes me think that no one really knows that much about imprinting.

[cobus]

Norm says 50% get killed on their first year. 50% left. An imprint will take up s pace and food not giving anything back. So reliece them and what do u have. One more mouth to feed and what does he or she give back. Nada. So releasing one in my book is NO.uyu

[goshawkr]

I don't think anyone really knows that much about imprinting or what happens when you release one. You hear about different kinds of imprinting, but I have to ask, what is the real difference? Imprinting is imprinting.
In reality, raptors have no idea what they are. It never enters into their thinking I would expect. They just go with what they find familiar to them. Imprinting will not eleminate fear either. The reason a very young hawk shows less fear is that he can not focus his eyes yet and so can't really see you. Once that changes it is instantly fearful of what it does not know. You can hatch the egg yourself and it will still start showing fear once it can see.
I once had a female goshawk that was take as a brancher that could actually fly a little. She imprinted and she laid eggs for me. So this makes me think that no one really knows that much about imprinting.

Jack,

You have said a lot of dumb ass things.

You have said a lot of brilliant things (somehow people seem to prefer to point out the dumb ass things you say instead).

I think this statement of yours is one of the brilliantest things you have said.

Imprinting in raptors does NOT work the way it is described. So far, the closest anyone has come to really getting it wrtten out is Nick Fox in "Understanding the Bird of Prey".

Its not a one way process. Hawks that are imprinted on their parents will "switch" and display imprint behaviors to their falconer. Hawks that are imprinted on people will "switch" and interact recognize that other raptors are their own kind. Both of these have been documented extensively.

Releasing an imprint to the wild is jsut fine - depending.

Dont release an ill mannered agressive imprint that doesnt know how to fend for itself anywhere near people (and keep in mind they can travel a long distance easily).

A well behaved, well hunting, fit imprint released out in the boonies will do just fine.

It may breed, it may not. So what. ~90% of adult raptors in the wild are not breeding, and a sizeable percentage of those never do breed. Breeding adults are the elite of the elite. As a side topic, thats why a limited take of haggard birds is 100% viable...but thats a personal crusade of mine that belongs on another thread...........

Even if they are not candidates for release, imprinted birds can always be placed in a zoo or with another falconer. They are not a life sentace.

[PHILADELPHIA CITY HAWKER]

Once your done with the imprint, farm the bird out to a breeder, probably will live longer that just being released into the wild.

Jeff

[goshawkr]

Norm says 50% get killed on their first year. 50% left. An imprint will take up s pace and food not giving anything back. So reliece them and what do u have. One more mouth to feed and what does he or she give back. Nada. So releasing one in my book is NO.uyu

Cobus,

Thats an overly simplistic view of raptor population dynamics.

There really is a mathmatical "carrying capacity" where there is no more room (or food) to feed raptors, but there are no raptor populations that have reached this limit.

The real limiting factor on their population levels is breeding territories and breeding structures. When these get opened up (either through creation or through being vacated by losses), they are rapidly colonized.

Most adult raptors you see are non-breeders, just waiting for a chance to hedge their way into a spot occupied by the breeders. An adult bird that dosnt even want in on the reproduction game is a complete non-issue.

Also, as raptors age, they start to hear their biological clock ticking out, and grow more anxious to reporoduce. They will start to be less choosey about who they call a mate (which is why passage birds kept for several years may start courting their falconer even though they are not imprinted on people) and they start to be more agressive about trying to hedge out the competition for a breeding territory. This is probably why wild raptors seem to burn out at ~10 years old. They are expending too much energy fending off the competition from their breeding territories or they are fighting too hard to aquire one and simply run out of metabolical steam.

[jfseaman]

I don't think anyone really knows that much about imprinting or what happens when you release one. You hear about different kinds of imprinting, but I have to ask, what is the real difference? Imprinting is imprinting.
In reality, raptors have no idea what they are. It never enters into their thinking I would expect. They just go with what they find familiar to them. Imprinting will not eleminate fear either. The reason a very young hawk shows less fear is that he can not focus his eyes yet and so can't really see you. Once that changes it is instantly fearful of what it does not know. You can hatch the egg yourself and it will still start showing fear once it can see.
I once had a female goshawk that was take as a brancher that could actually fly a little. She imprinted and she laid eggs for me. So this makes me think that no one really knows that much about imprinting.

I hate it when he does that. Jack mostly has it right and that just messes with my brain.

[goshawks00]

I hate it when he does that. Jack mostly has it right and that just messes with my brain.

Believe what you may , there are enough records of imprints that are lost, that end up breeding with the wild population to make an assumption that they do revert back to the wild given enough time.... Yea I know we hear about 'imprints attacking hiumans, but have you ever considered how many are released back to the wild vs. reports of attacks? It really isn't cut and dried...

[Montucky]

are we really having this conversation.

obviously "imprinting" is on a continuum as most birds are pulled after a certain number of days and probably have some latent recognition of their species...its not a black or white thing and never was in falconry....but clearly imprinting to humans still changes them irreversably enough that it would be unwise to release an imprinted RT or other raptor capable of hurting someone or someone's pet...or resulting in death due to too much trust in humans. But for the same reasons I believe many passage birds cannot be released cold but need some time to gain weight and become withdrawn from their handler.

releasing smaller imprinted birds may be less dangerous but its more of a convenience for the falconer and most likely not going to benefit the bird's wellbeing - in a similar way that releasing a chamber raised bird probably will lead to a dead bird. Imprinting is more than just about reproduction, there are also formative lessons never learned around the fledging time in the wild that probably cant be learned latter just like with chamber birds. Anyway, if released, it seems like a lonely existence if the bird is trully imprinted.

Breeding or not breeding isnt necessarily the test for imprinted "status" or not. clearly the willingness to breed ( like build a nest in a mews and stand for copulation with human stimulation) has been done plenty of times by pure passage birds (prairies and goshawks to name a couple)...so I think a lot of that has to do with lots and lots of handling, a calm bird, and probably a bird pre-disposed to be in a breeding overdrive at adulthood. Either way there may be lots we dont understand, but i wouldnt release an imprint or chamber-raised bird unless it was not a danger to anyone, was a proven hunter, and I knew it understood how, where, when to roost at night - because I obvserved it let say when the bird spent the night out.

[sevristh]

Anyway, if released, it seems like a lonely existence if the bird is trully imprinted.

In my opinion this is purely anthropomorphizing and should not weigh into the discussion at all.

[sevristh]

And, if you WERE going to use that as an excuse to be against releasing imprints, then you must also be against those falconers that have kept their wild trapped RT's for 20+ years, for those birds are surely "lonely" for their own kind as well...

[Montucky]

In my opinion this is purely anthropomorphizing and should not weigh into the discussion at all.

funny...yes right because falconry is a purely scientific pursuit and is not at all ruled by our emmotions.

not that we all have to agree...i just think it is a reasonable statement to suggest that imprints are more bonded to their handler than non-imprints. Passage birds are also bonded to their handler after many many years of hawking. Released imprints are not having a relationship with anyone...i believe many imprints want to "go home" at the end of the day. Being kicked out on the curb kind of sucks...

[Dirthawking]

Anyway, if released, it seems like a lonely existence if the bird is trully imprinted.

Funny way to describe a "solitary" preditor.....passage, imprinted, or chamber.

[goshawks00]

In my opinion this is purely anthropomorphizing and should not weigh into the discussion at all.

Aww Bill you are so mean and uncaring....so cold and cruel.

[sevristh]

Aww Bill you are so mean and uncaring....so cold and cruel.

What'd you say Jack?


Sorry, I figured calling you Jack would make us even, haha!

[sevristh]

funny...yes right because falconry is a purely scientific pursuit and is not at all ruled by our emotions.

But you weren't talking about falconry, or our feelings, you were trying to impress them upon a solitary predator with purely primal instincts and urges.

[Montucky]

pair bonds are real dude

[Montucky]

But you weren't talking about falconry, or our feelings, you were trying to impress them upon a solitary predator with purely primal instincts and urges.

i think you are selling raptors short. they are not solitary as a rule, many preserve their pair bond throughout the year...and their behavior is not "purely primal instincts and urges" clearly they have higher funtions proven by teh fact they can be trained and can form productive hunting partnerships with them. they just have their own set of behaviors that are complex in their own right. I have seen very strong bonds between the falconer and bird...nothing wrong with acknowledging that. Imprints have been manipulated to literally bond with humans, or one human in particular. Ignoring that fact just seems a little heartless to me. Maybe I am just turning into a softy

[sevristh]

i think you are selling raptors short. they are not solitary as a rule, many preserve their pair bond throughout the year...and their behavior is not "purely primal instincts and urges" clearly they have higher funtions proven by teh fact they can be trained and can form productive hunting partnerships with them.

And how well do those partnerships work for you without food or producing slips? You can romanticize it if you want, but it's an example of an opportunistic predator taking advantage of a good thing.

Ignoring that fact just seems a little heartless to me. Maybe I am just turning into a softy

And that is why it's called anthropomorphizing. You are trying to overlay your feelings onto the bird. I think that while they do establish pair bonds that can last through the year, this is also a thing of convenience or opportunity. What happens if you take one of those birds away, even while on chicks? The other one gets a new mate asap. They don't spend time pining or crying or anything else. It's instinct, not love.

[Montucky]

And how well do those partnerships work for you without food or producing slips? You can romanticize it if you want, but it's an example of an opportunistic predator taking advantage of a good thing.

And that is why it's called anthropomorphizing. You are trying to overlay your feelings onto the bird. I think that while they do establish pair bonds that can last through the year, this is also a thing of convenience or opportunity. What happens if you take one of those birds away, even while on chicks? The other one gets a new mate asap. They don't spend time pining or crying or anything else. It's instinct, not love.

Jeez. Maybe because of the animal right rhetoric you feel the need to completely deny the emmotional aspects of birds and consider any discussing of it to be faulty logic and "romanticizing or anthropomorphizing" -the whole thing is sad. You may think i am wrong but your descriptions of birds as opperating based only on purely primals instincts pretty much ignores their behavior. Yes there are individual behaviors like the wing-tail stretch, feaking, bathing, etc that is pure instinct. But there is a lot more that isnt. To suggest that a pair of eagles that have been inseparable for 10 years, care nothing for each other just because one is replaced during the next breeding cycle after the death of another - well I dont know what to tell you. Mate replacement is common in every species that demonstrates strong pair-bonds including humans - that is an observable fact not anthropomorphizing.

I know full well that I alot of the relationship between falconer and bird is based on the falconer providing enhanced hunting opportunity and food. But the discussion was about releasing imprints. And whether you choose to deny or not...most wild animals imprinted to humans are changed irreversably. We falconers forget that being able to hunt is a small piece of pie in the life history of a wild raptor- we just choose to focus on it becaue it is cool. Imprints have been imprinted to humans and their environment - that is their home and humans or a certain human is their mate. Even after a few successful hawking seasons, their ability to make a 180 degree shift from the human environment to then interact with the wild environment is super questionable and kind of harsh in my opinion. Fine some survive, and maybe some "misprints" have a perfectly satisfactory life in the wild. I dont stay up at night thinking about it, I just think it is worth considering the mental wellbeing of animals under our care.

[sevristh]

To suggest that a pair of eagles that have been inseparable for 10 years, care nothing for each other just because one is replaced during the next breeding cycle after the death of another - well I dont know what to tell you. Mate replacement is common in every species that demonstrates strong pair-bonds including humans - that is an observable fact not anthropomorphizing.

I'm not trying to get you pissed off and neither am I upset at this conversation, I simply believe differently from you. You also seem to keep falling back into the same explanations. How do you KNOW the bird feels something? How is it demonstrating this? Look at Jimmy's thread on here where he is interacting with his FRT Lacy while she's on eggs/chicks... he obviously enjoys petting her as do most of us falconers with out birds. However, in my eyes, the bird merely tolerates it or it could even be said may be slightly irritated by it. How many times have you seen a bird be petted by its falconer while blinking its eyes and sort of pulling its head back? Now take that to how a parrot responds... I can't say I have ever seen an example of a hawk or falcon leaning over and fanning its neck feathers in order to solicit being petted. Its fine to be emotional about imprints etc. I simply think it's faulty logic to overlay those feelings onto the bird and think it's the same thing.