2011 Imprint Goshawk

[robruger1]

10 days old. Nest was checked the day of hatch so no guesstimation on the age which is nice. 292 grams. Good appetite and shows zero fear. Anyone venture to guess the sex? This is my first gos so I have no basis for comparison.

[goshawks00]

Female --wedge head , thick tarsus..

[FredFogg]

Nice! Man I want one soooooo bad! Congrats, have fun.

[robruger1]

Thanks Fred, I'm really excited. Barry, yeah I was kinda leaning that way as well. The chick my buddy pulled from the same nest so far weighs the same but we thought it had a slightly narrower cere and a slightly short hallux to middle toe measurement. Is your guestimation based only on physical features, or is the weight also too high for it to be a male at this stage? I ask because we thought mine might be a female and his a male but the weight is the same or within a few grams.

[hcmcelroy]

Rob,

Best of luck with this hawk it looks like a nice one. I don't know about gos but the aplo has been sexed by weight by The Peregrine Fund. At 15 days the females weigh much more!!! I've sexed Cooper's by weight at 12 days of age up to 18 days and again the weight is dramatically higher in the females.

My guess is that there is a large weight difference in the gos too but I have no idea when that occurs. Of course a feather, blood or egg shell example could be sent in for a lab test. I understand that it is not expensive.

I am going to imprint a gos again this year and I am interested in how you raise your hawk.
Harry.

[goshawks00]

. Is your guestimation based only on physical features, or is the weight also too high for it to be a male at this stage? I ask because we thought mine might be a female and his a male but the weight is the same or within a few grams.

Rob weight is not a very good indication of what sex a chick is , at least at this time.. Example- today before feeding the goshawk chicks, I weighed several of them to show a comparison. These are known DNA tested chicks so I know what they are..

chick 1-female 9 days old--272 gr.
chick 2-female 9 days old--269 gr. these 2 are clutch mates

chick 3-male 11 days old--292 gr.
chick 4-male 9 days old--266 gr. these 2 are also clutch mates

Weight... parentage... quality and quantity of food ate, hydration are all determinative factors, and can vary quite a bit, chick to chick, and clutch to clutch.
Now then, shapes and I suppose measurements to a point are a better source of determining the sex of the bird. For me things I look for are, and not in any order: Head shape, is it cheese head/ wedge shaped , ping-pong ball shaped(?) ,tarsus thickness,and the joint thickness where the toes meet, size of cere, width of head.

In the end it is what it is, enjoy what ever you got, and have fun...

[hcmcelroy]

Barry,

It is always interesting to read your comments about the gos I know you have been there. The Peregrine Fund found a dramatic difference in the weights of aplos at age 15 days. At some point wouldn't the gos begin to show a large difference in weight between the sexes?

Harry.

[robruger1]

Rob weight is not a very good indication of what sex a chick is , at least at this time.. Example- today before feeding the goshawk chicks, I weighed several of them to show a comparison. These are known DNA tested chicks so I know what they are..

chick 1-female 9 days old--272 gr.
chick 2-female 9 days old--269 gr. these 2 are clutch mates

chick 3-male 11 days old--292 gr.
chick 4-male 9 days old--266 gr. these 2 are also clutch mates

Weight... parentage... quality and quantity of food ate, hydration are all determinative factors, and can vary quite a bit, chick to chick, and clutch to clutch.
Now then, shapes and I suppose measurements to a point are a better source of determining the sex of the bird. For me things I look for are, and not in any order: Head shape, is it cheese head/ wedge shaped , ping-pong ball shaped(?) ,tarsus thickness,and the joint thickness where the toes meet, size of cere, width of head.

In the end it is what it is, enjoy what ever you got, and have fun...

I'll be happy either way. My buddy is really hoping his is a male. It is nice to see my birds weight range for age is right in there with yours. The other reason we thought maybe his was male and mine a female was because my birds head and beak looked longer while his face seemed much shorter and blunter. His beak also seemed like it curved down sooner.

[goshawks00]

At some point wouldn't the gos begin to show a large difference in weight between the sexes?

Harry.

Absolutely, but mine are pretty much gone by that time... It also becomes pretty apparent what's what after a while...key word being sometimes... I think the weights for different sexs of goshawks really starts ramping up at about 20 days.. Maybe Rob and his friend can monitor their chicks and make that comparison, of course factoring in some of the variables I mentioned , plus another which is some just don't eat as much as others even within a nest.

[hcmcelroy]

Barry,

Yes, I was making the guess that the difference would become obvious at 18-20 days. It would be interesting if Rob would keep a record. I don't know of a record of weights for the gos. I can weigh mine this year too. It is interesting that the weight difference comes so close to the imprinting age.

Harry.

[goshawks00]

Many years ago and for several years I kept all kinds of records... weights per day amount ate per day also foot size per day. Some times charting up to 5 goshawks some seasons. I also compared our Midwest goshawks to a couple westerns that I pulled, and a couple of Finnish birds for grins. Then we moved , things had gotten packed away, and I just don't have it in me to go back into 'the black hole' of the attic and try to find them. I think Tom did a pretty accurate accounting of his female a couple of years ago. I did find some records that I added to that thread, and yea it would be interesting to see others keep some accurate precise records of their own individual goshawks.

[robruger1]

I already am keeping a log, I will post it here if people want to keep track

[hcmcelroy]

I already am keeping a log, I will post it here if people want to keep track

Rob, Let's see it! It would be most interesting to see the weights if you or your friend have a female. At around 20 days of age the female may be much larger. The male I will get will be sexed by DNA so I'll know that it will be a male for sure. But it will be interesting to know how you raise it too.
Harry

[robruger1]

I intended to weigh from the get go but when I went to use my scale the battery was dead and it has been a busy memorial day weekend and didn't get a battery until Sunday night but waited until yesterday morning while she was empty to weigh her. Yesterday she was 355 grams and this morning she was 385 grams. She is 14 days old today. Her foot measurement last night from tip of hallux to tip of middle toe was exactly 3 inches.

[schwartze]

Hi Rob,

I pulled a goshawk on Sunday from a nest near Edmonton, AB. Both adults were present and gave us quite the performance. My friend Jon got some shots of the male. There were 4 young in the nest, and I took this one because it appeared to be 1-2 days older than the other three. The eyass weighed 160 grams that evening and I am guessing that it was around 7-8 days old. The day before we took a bird from another nest for a falconer up here who flew a great passage female last year at snowshoe hare. She killed around 35 hares but was killed by a kick from the last hare she tried to kill. That eyass was fostered onto a pair of Harris' hawks and will be chamber-raised to around 50 days. Neither of us are too picky about the gender of our birds.

I flew a nice imprint male two seasons ago and it's exciting to be giving it another shot.

Regards,

Steve

[robruger1]

Cool Steve, maybe we both keep logs on here of day to day weight until hardpenning for a reference for others?

[wingnut]

That male is gorgeous. Either your friend Jon is really quick or he got it in the face right after he snapped that third picture. Love imprint males....I really envy you.

[hcmcelroy]

Steve,

Great shots! Can you tell us about the imprinting and hunting used on your male? What system? Was he easy or difficult, what did you hunt, etc?

Did you hood him?

Harry.

[hcmcelroy]

Rob,

Good to see you are weighing her/him. My guess is that weighing in the morning on an empty crop every other day would give us a record. I hope Steve will do the same. I'll weigh mine as he ages too.

Harry.

[keitht]

I prefer to pull my gos chicks a bit older than the two above just so I can sex them. I look for that just right time when they are old enough to sex and yet not too old to retain wildness.

Of coarse, if sex isn't a concern then it doesn't matter.

[schwartze]

Hi All,

I'd be glad to keep a daily weight log. I am away on business for a few days though, and did not bring a scale. I will start as soon as I get home. Harry, I'll give you a quick history of my last imprint male when I'm home as well, on here if Rob would like or by PM otherwise.

I have raised a bunch of imprints over the years, but I have never been around a goshawk of this age. This bird's appetite is absolutely astounding.

Regards,

Steve

[robruger1]

Huge weight gain in the last 24 hours. Today, completely empty she is 15.2 ounces or 430 grams! That is a 1.6 ounce gain from yesterday.

[hcmcelroy]

I prefer to pull my gos chicks a bit older than the two above just so I can sex them. I look for that just right time when they are old enough to sex and yet not too old to retain wildness.

Of coarse, if sex isn't a concern then it doesn't matter.

Keith,

Good to see your comments.

A bit older for sexing? What age is that? Perhaps you have the weights and age we are seeking?

Thanks,

Harry.

[robruger1]

Today she's 16.5 ounces or 468 grams. My buddy called last night and said his bird yesterday morning was 455 grams so it is bigger than my bird but he's sure his is a male. She's now 15 days old. Barry, at what age can you sex by weight?

[Saluqi]

Hi Rob,

Here are links to Jim's thread on raising Hannah, his wild-taken NA gos. Late last winter Jim transferred her to me and she is an extremely nice bird, great manners, quiet, and super tame, so there's lots of good info buried in these threads.

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=4317

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=5253

[goshawks00]

I agree with Paul, there is a lot of info folded into threads if you look...also look at Ginsus thread
Now here is what I can today...

#1 female--482 grams -15 days
#2 female--465 grams -14 days
#1 male----507 grams -16 days

How about a current head and tarsus shot of your chick...

BTW I haven't said much but I took a male goshawk this year from Mich. the first legally taken eyas in close to 40 years. He is about 21+ - days old and weighed 588 this morning.

[sevristh]

Rob,

My thread here http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?...ighlight=armis might provide some extra info as far as weights too. Though, Armis was 18 days old when I started it. But I posted detailed feather growth pictures as well as weights.

[Joby]

BTW I haven't said much but I took a male goshawk this year from Mich. the first legally taken eyas in close to 40 years. He is about 21+ - days old and weighed 588 this morning.

CONGRATS Barry!! BTW, could you tell your new 'lil guy to send his big sis a postcard telling her how great Ohio is as a wintering spot. Then I'll make sure to hook up with her at the border this fall!

[Pedioecetes]

This will be a very interesting thread. Steve that is one fine looking haggard gos! Was that up at Mike's? Keep everyone posted on yours as well. Some day, I keep thinking I should branch out into the gos world, but some day never seems to come.

[schwartze]

I'm not entirely sure of the bird's age, but I think it's around 11 days old today. This morning before breakfast it weighed 305g, then ate 82g of ground quail.

Below are some pictures of the bird just after the morning meal. I have my thoughts on what gender it is, but I'll let others take their guesses first.

Bob, this bird is from Mike's. Mike told me that he's had a pair of goshawks on his place every year since he built his house...around 24 years, I think. Nobody has ever taken an eyass off of his place, just the odd passager. One year he had all 3 N.A. accipiters nesting within 100 yards of the house. Mike's grandson Riley is turning out to be quite the keen young falconer, and he hopes to trap a passage male gos at Mike's this fall to fly at magpies.

Harry, my first goshawk was a captive-bred male from Dan Pike. I got him when he was about 20 days old, and Danny had raised him from hatching until then. My approach to raising him was recipe-ish, with perhaps a little less stress on daily baggies when he was younger. My main regrets with him were the following;
1) He was not raised around my pointer (I was away from home) ,
2) I managed his hunger pre-penning to encourage killing baggies,
3) I forced hooding when he refused it, the way I do with hood-shy young falcons.
His first wild kill was a crow from the window of the truck. He killed some young quail early on, then the first rabbit he ever saw, and I spent a fair amount of time doing progressively more challenging pigeons from a launcher. In August I focussed on magpies and crows from the truck, then in September switched to flying huns in weed fields in an agricultural area near work with the pointer finally in the mix. He killed 13 huns in great flights before they grew up enough to simply outfly him, a problem more to do with the places I was hawking than anything. I didn't get to start hawking on my home turf until early November, where I have more selection of quarry and terrain. Once home he killed a few more huns, some pheasants, and more magpies, but his fear of the dog became worse and hooding became a problem. I reduced his weight to try to curb the "issues", but it was a miserably cold December and on one or two occasions he completely shut down in the cold. I decided to fatten him up and quit for the year just after Christmas. He moulted beautifully in isolation, then escaped a week before I planned to pull him when a wind storm ripped a section of the wall off of a friend's chamber where I had put him for the summer. It was a real bummer to lose him.










Regards,

Steve

[robruger1]

Wow, great responses guys, thanks for all the info. Thanks for the links as well.

[robruger1]

Ok so my wife bounced my camera off the dance floor at the bar on her last birthday so all I have right now is my cell so bear with me on these pics, but here they are as requested.

[AdamVR]

Is that a teaspoon? lol, very nice bird.

All the best with her
Regards

[keitht]

Harry wrote:

A bit older for sexing? What age is that? Perhaps you have the weights and age we are seeking?

Harry: I have weighed many gos chicks taken from nests over the years and, for me, it has been fairly useless information. Much of the difficulty is knowing with any certainty just how old a chick is. Chicks grow so quickly that being off a day or two can throw off you weight comparisons. Foot span measurements are another measurement that may have a bit more meaning that body weights.

Then chicks that are fed more grow more. I have seen chicks that received almost not enough food to thrive turn out stunted.

I have always thought that sexing gos chicks was a bit harder than sexing coopers. And I'm not sure why.

I like to pull a chick when there is just a very slight bit of brown showing. And of coarse it helps to have a nest with both sexes. But that too has thrown many a falconer off, as the smaller bird may just be the younger bird.

I've often heard, as Barry stated the "wedge head," as being helpful. And that may be so, but my eyes have never made much distinction in head shapes. So while it may be helpful to others, I haven't relied much on it.

The one characteristic that is meaningful to me is leg thickness, (as Barry also mentioned) But you have to have a very good and trained eye to see it when there is not another chick of the opposite sex available for comparison.

(So I've said a lot and unfortunately answered nothing)

[robruger1]

Holy crap. By far biggest weight gain, almost doesn't seem possible, But I double and triple checked the scale and its true. 18.6 ounces, 528 grams!