Apache - 2011 Imprint Male Goshawk

[allredone]

By the way. What's a texas pioneer pigeon?

[goshawks00]

Just curious. Can you have your big stand on a straight ruler and measure the feet for talon tip to talon tip? That would mean something to me about size. Very curious.

Yep to that, sometimes it's tough to get real feed back on birds produced.
I think it's also safe to say weight = a combination of genetics and falconer ability.

[Squirrelhawkin]

By the way. What's a texas pioneer pigeon?

They were bred for squab production,meat birds

[allredone]

Just curious. Can you have your big stand on a straight ruler and measure the feet for talon tip to talon tip? That would mean something to me about size. Very curious.

Yep to that, sometimes it's tough to get real feed back on birds produced.
I think it's also safe to say weight = a combination of genetics and falconer ability.

Genetics + falconer opportunity too. There are probably lots of good falconers who fly at lower weights and fitness during this stage because of practical life style constraints. I was very fortunate to have the opportunity to hack my birds in habitat very close to what real goshawk nest woods look like with abundant things to chase and distant neighbors. I wasn't doing anything with them while out except maybe check n them at lunch. All that time on the wing I think made them muscle up and they didn't loose much fat either because I'd had never cut rations. Can't say what happened after because I gave both birds away after they each caught their first field birds off the fist. The falconer who had the most success was more traditional and cut weight and caught ducks. Hard to argue with success. I was just imprinting the tiercels for experience.

[allredone]

I should add that the other bird died of mysterious illness so when I say the bird that had the most success I mean the bird that lived. Ha!...

[rocgwp]

71 days - 778g

Apache continues to progress. I am having to work hard to maintain the parent view with him as he reaches the age of dispersal. Tonight he was talking more than I have ever heard him. He was hungry although his weight was the same as our morning workout. He is not screaming by any means, he is just vocalizing in his excitement. I expect more vocalizing as he learns to deal with hunger and the for it to decrease as he shifts into hunting.

Tonight we did RP's and controlled bates until he was exhausted. We did some tidbit hunts with the dog out. We had a big group of camp staff over tonight and he sat on this fist without a care in the world while they all oohed and awed over him. Have I mentioned that I love this bird so far

Once my new hood arrives, we will begin hood training. I'll detail that procedure as it progresses...

Here are some pics:

A hot and tired gos


Still friends


Tidbit hunts in the yard

[rocgwp]

By the way. What's a texas pioneer pigeon?

A Texas Pioneer Pigeon is a pigeon bred for meat production. They are about 3 times bigger than a homer. They look like chickens they are so big. They make great training birds because they don't fly long distances. They will fly about 30-40yds and then bail into cover instead of trying to sky out like a homer. They will also trap back into the loft after use.

[allredone]

Wow cool. Never heard of such a bird. Thanks.

[rocgwp]

Just curious. Can you have your big stand on a straight ruler and measure the feet for talon tip to talon tip? That would mean something to me about size. Very curious.

Yep to that, sometimes it's tough to get real feed back on birds produced.
I think it's also safe to say weight = a combination of genetics and falconer ability.

Do you want talon tip to talon tip or from the tip of the toe to tip of toe? I am assuming middle toe to halux...

[allredone]

Right, longest measurement you can get. Halux to middle toe. Some folks measure the feet from the quick of the talon at the fleshy part saying that's more accurate because talons wear down or overgrow. I don't think that changes the foot size much unless it's dramatic though because the talons curve at a downward angle.

[EAZFalconer]

By the way. What's a texas pioneer pigeon?

The other thing interesting about texas pioneers is that they are auto sexing--you can tell the sex of the squabs as soon as they hatch.

[Lee Slikkers]

would love to find some of those Texan pigeons up here...would be helpful with my female imprint gos.

[allredone]

The other thing interesting about texas pioneers is that they are auto sexing--you can tell the sex of the squabs as soon as they hatch.

What's your source for them? Where can I buy them? Did Tex A&M invent these?

[rocgwp]

I picked mine up off of Craigslist. I'm sure you could google them and find a breeder.

[EAZFalconer]

What's your source for them? Where can I buy them? Did Tex A&M invent these?

Google "Texan Pioneer pigeon" here is the national club for them and that will help you find a breeder:

http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/texanpioneer/

[rocgwp]

74 days - 780g

Things are about the same with Apache. I had an equipment malfunction today that resulted in me putting temporary gear on him. I was using bullet jesses and he broke one. I've had it happen before when they get older. I'll order some new ones.

I made a post perch for him and he has taken to it with no issue. I measured his foot span and best I can tell is he has 4 1/2 inch span from talon tip to talon tip.

[allredone]

74 days - 780g

I made a post perch for him and he has taken to it with no issue. I measured his foot span and best I can tell is he has 4 1/2 inch span from talon tip to talon tip.

Jeff it you didn't know already that is truly a remarkable size. At least compared to the 3 Wisconsin males I've had and others I've seen.

Nice work Paul and Barry!...

My largest male Wisconsin goshawk had feet that were 4 3/8" and he had a, "feather volume" physical size that made him "look" just as big as my female who had feet that were only 4 5/8". That size spread is typical for Wisconsin birds. Huge males and small to average females. At many nests its hard to tell the difference between the male and female parent birds. Sometimes it's just the behavior of the agresive female and the fact that the male leaves when she gets really fired up that makes it obvious. Some Wisconsin females are quite large feet 5 1/4" and fly above 1000 but not many.

So this bird just looks really nice. Maybe the same or bigger than that one male I had.

If others have seem lots of males that have feet this large and may fly near 27 ounces please chime in here. I'm under the impression that is special and I'd like to hear about it if I am wrong.

Nice bird! Thanks for taking the time to measure!

[rocgwp]

[sevristh]

Jeff,

I've never used the bullet jesses, but they always looked pretty stout to me... How have the ones you have used broken? Did they both fail the same way?

[rocgwp]

Over a period of time the chord that runs in the interior of the jess rots or becomes weaker. I've never had 2 fail at the same time, but I guess it's possible. The ones I've had fail, failed in the same way. Another local falconer has had the same experience.

I really like them though because of the stiffness. I've never had an issue with a bird getting tangled like I have with leather or braided jesses. They are also really quick to change out.

[Lee Slikkers]

Over a period of time the chord that runs in the interior of the jess rots or becomes weaker. I've never had 2 fail at the same time, but I guess it's possible. The ones I've had fail, failed in the same way. Another local falconer has had the same experience.

I really like them though because of the stiffness. I've never had an issue with a bird getting tangled like I have with leather or braided jesses. They are also really quick to change out.

Which style of jess had the failure? I have a set that has an almost "plastic" sleeve but I am not crazy about them cause they seem real stiff and always look uncomfortable for the bird that is tethered with them. I would like to pick up another set of those flying style jesses....

[rocgwp]

Here is a photo of the type that failed. It is the one's with the plastic outer sleeve. Like I said, I love them and use them all the time. The inner chord is what failed. The amount of time Apache spends in his water bowl might have contributed to this as well.

[Lee Slikkers]

yeah, those are the ones that always look too stiff when the hawk is wearing them...they are easy to use though.

[rocgwp]

75 days

Had two great workouts with Apache today. This morning he was 776g. I did restrained pursuits to Mr. Frosty until he was exhausted. He ate as much as he wanted (cut up into tidbits that he was working for) which was an entire 3 week old quail.

He worked harder than I thought because tonight he was noisy and HUNGRY. I weighed him before his workout and he was 765g. I was surprised he had lost 10 grams over the course of the day after eating quite bit this morning. The workout tonight consisted of restrained pursuits to Mr. Frosty until his wings were drooping and he was exhausted. I believe this would have been a huntable weight with instant lure response. He hit Mr. Frosty, mantled, and was really excited. I CRed him for calming down and then stepped him to the glove and handed him another tidbit. On the next one he slicked down on Mr. Frosty and was eager to step up and do it all again to get fed. I made each RP tougher as we went (with an occasional easy one thrown in).

At this point I figured I'd introduce the hood.

The hood plan I am following is designed to give him a choice of 2 ways to get fed. He can either work his tail off for a tiny piece of meat doing RP's, fist drops, or controlled bates OR he can be hooded for a big reward. At first I will only work hooding after he is exhausted. Tonight I brought the hood up and let him look at it, CRed and rewarded with a big reward (I am now using a whistle as my CR when outdoors). After 10 or so reps I was able to get the hood up level with his face with his beak in it with no apprehension. I am using an oversized hood at this point. I'll repeat this process for a couple days before moving forward. I am looking for Apache to anticipate the sight of the hood near his head as an easy source of food. I'll detail more as we progress.

He ate a LOT tonight so hopefully he will maintain weight over night.

[FredFogg]

Are you using the high level tidbitting hooding method shown by Jim Nelson on his website? It sort of sounds like it. I really like what I saw on the videos and am going to try it on my next falcon or accipiter.

[rocgwp]

I'm not sure. I am using Layman's method. I think the shaping method of getting the hood on is the same and I am handing him tidbits with my hands as usual (not necessarily high level though). I think the difference is the motivation. Instead of only free shaping accepting the hood, in Layman's method the bird has a choice of how it wants to get fed. It can work hard for a small reward or be hooded for a big one. You have to be able to work the bird to exhaustion before you can start his method. Subtle difference now, but I'm told it is important later on.

[allredone]

Are you using the high level tidbitting hooding method shown by Jim Nelson on his website? It sort of sounds like it. I really like what I saw on the videos and am going to try it on my next falcon or accipiter.

Fred I've got a video that you will want to see it's an hour long talk by layman where he's playing games and goes into depth on shaping. The high level tid butting thing is just the tip of the iceberg I think. Nice application and video though. Jim says that bird was videoed for it's first lesson. That kind of thing works quick.

[FredFogg]

Fred I've got a video that you will want to see it's an hour long talk by layman where he's playing games and goes into depth on shaping. The high level tid butting thing is just the tip of the iceberg I think. Nice application and video though. Jim says that bird was videoed for it's first lesson. That kind of thing works quick.

PM sent.

[allredone]

I'll post the video to a DropBox account for all to see in the next few days if I can find the DVD in storage tomorrow. Otherwise I'll get one from the guy who filmed the lecture for our club. Soon. I got permission to post it from Steve weeks ago I've just been dragging my feet.

[kimmerar]

I CRed him for calming down

What behavior are you looking for here? What action are you looking for? I'm trying to picture that. There are many behaviors going in that one minute right?

[rocgwp]

What behavior are you looking for here? What action are you looking for? I'm trying to picture that. There are many behaviors going in that one minute right?

He was excited and mantling. I was looking for him to bring his wings in to his side and then to slick down. He already knows what is expected (how he can get me to feed him), he is now learning to do it while dealing with hunger.

[AK Rev]

I got permission to post it from Steve weeks ago I've just been dragging my feet.

[rocgwp]

After yesterday's weight drop, I am weighing Apache throughout the day. He ate close to 50g this morning and will have burned it off within 8 hours. The exercises seem to have kicked his metabolism in and he is becoming a bottomless pit. I will have to watch him close and determine a g/hr/day loss in order to maintain his weight. I am planning on feeding him 75g or so tonight.

I have been advised to keep his mind busy with exercises and his body tired at this point. An idle mind is the devil's workshop...aggression could raise it's ugly head any day (I'm told).

I am curious how much other imprints are eating at this point (Harry and Barry).

[goshawks00]

3-4 oz skinned quail (1/2 quail), once a day with exercise.

[rocgwp]

3-4 oz skinned quail (1/2 quail), once a day with exercise.

Thanks Barry. Thor is eating ~85-115g of quail a day. It may be heat is part of my issue, but Apache loses interest after ~50g of food in a session. Apache is eating about the same as Thor (atleast on the upper end) just in multiple sessions.

Temps. this week are predicted to be as high as 107 degrees. Me and Apache are both ready for a break from the heat.