Apache - 2011 Imprint Male Goshawk

[hcmcelroy]

Jeff,

I start the day with a sparrow (20grams) and 40 grams of pigeon in the evening. My boy is dropping in weight yet still not hungry enough to appreciate jumping to the glove. He comes to the lure well in the room and is more relaxed but still not hungry enough to respond well. Quixote is a sensitive one.

Is your boy outside in this heat? Mine is inside during the heat of the day.

Harry.

[rocgwp]

A hot and tired Gos after his RP's this evening:

[rocgwp]

What does a Gos do when it's 108 degrees outside?

[PHILADELPHIA CITY HAWKER]

Hi Jeff, good luck with your goshawk !! very interesting the method of rearing you useing.

This is the first time i hear about the method of whole food association of the raptor with the falconer.

.

Many notable long-time Falconers use the hand feed method. I did with my female NA Goshawk with positive results. Just like non-food associated methods you never let your partner go hungry or reinforce negative behaviors (grabbing or vocalization) when your hand feeding, otherwise you will promote that behavior. (I know this comment is late in the thread)

Jeff F.

[rocgwp]

My wife took a short video of me hood training Apache tonight. All I am working on in this session is him placing his head in the hood. It's not perfect by any means, but it gives an idea of how I am shaping him to take the hood and how I am rewarding him. I use the clicker indoors and a whistle outdoors as my CR. He was 775g in this video.

[rocgwp]

Try this link...

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/b09cca9a.mp4

[sevristh]

Cool video Jeff! Looks like it's working. Do you plan to try a larger hood first when you actually start putting it all the way on or just gonna stick to the one he will wear?

[rocgwp]

I am using a red tail hood to start with. I won't switch to a good fitting hood until I am ready to work on closing the braces.

[sevristh]

Cool. I've seen a male gos flown by a member of our club that was made to the hood using the same methods, and he hoods very nicely.

[allredone]

Thank you so much for posting this Jeff. Great stuff there!
What a strong example of the power of CR work.

Your shaping games are clearly effective. Do you enjoy theme as well?

Can you tell us more about how you worked up to this point? Quiet bird. No attempt to foot you etc. Looks great!

[goshawkr]

Try this link...

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/n...p/b09cca9a.mp4

I gotta agree - great video.

[rocgwp]

82 days - 775g

Been working Apache out with RP's and fist drops for small rewards. I then work hooding while he is still hungry for bigger rewards. This morning I was able to get the hood all the way on CR and then he got a jackpot reward. I'll work this for a couple more days increasing the duration of time the hood is on his head.

I'm hoping to do walk abouts this week and let him chase tossed pigeons. My nemesis has been the heat. Our lows have been in the 80's and temps stayed close to 105-109 all week. If I am able to do the walk abouts and get the hooding done, I don't think he is far from hunting. I'll probably try to start him off on crows.

On another note, Apache finally tipped his deck feathers. I changed his bath pan to a large mortar mixing tub a while ago. He likes to stand in the water and lean back on his tail to cool off. There is plenty of space in the pan, but my guess is he is just trying to cool off in the ridiculous heat. He spends a good portion of the day doing this and his tail finally had all it could take. Bummer...

[kimmerar]

Jeff - your timing is great and you know when to quit the session. Great job. I've watched 1000's of hours of clicker training. None with raptors though. That was done before I was born . I saw clearly what you were bridging. What was the next part of the chain?

[rocgwp]

Hooding is going great with Apache! After working him hard for small rewards doing RP's, I was able to increase the criteria tonight to the point where the hood stays on his head for a count of 2. I would then CR and give him a jackpot reward. Once my new hood gets here, he should be ready to transition to it. After he is comfortable with it staying on a little longer, I'll start squeezing the back of the hood and CRing to prepare him for closing the braces.

[rocgwp]

86 days - 779g

Tonight is a big night. I have worked the entire hooding sequence with Apache and it was time to close the braces. I worked him HARD to get him tired for small rewards. We then worked hooding with his hood from Ken Hooke. After most of his meal was done, I slid the hood on and closed the braces. As expected he didn't like it one bit. I was advised that once the braces close the first time that he would throw a fit. I was instructed to not ever remove the hood while he was upset. For the first hooding, I was told to hood him, let him throw a fit and then tie him to a safe perch for the night. Once he is good and hungry in the morning and has forgot about the negatives, I can remove the hood and jackpot him with a BIG reward. He is now sitting on the perch upset about his circumstances...



A great pred8tor hood Fromm Ken Hooke:

[AK Rev]

It always makes me chuckle to see them at first with their sad body language. Obviously you don't want that for any length of time but it's a little funny. They get over it soon enough.

[BestBeagler]

[QUOTE=rocgwp;201521]86 days - 779g

Tonight is a big night. I have worked the entire hooding sequence with Apache and it was time to close the braces. I worked him HARD to get him tired for small rewards. We then worked hooding with his hood from Ken Hooke. After most of his meal was done, I slid the hood on and closed the braces. As expected he didn't like it one bit. I was advised that once the braces close the first time that he would throw a fit. I was instructed to not ever remove the hood while he was upset. For the first hooding, I was told to hood him, let him throw a fit and then tie him to a safe perch for the night. Once he is good and hungry in the morning and has forgot about the negatives, I can remove the hood and jackpot him with a BIG reward. He is now sitting on the perch upset about his circumstances...
QUOTE]

Isn't there anyway you can go about this with out them throwing a fit? Them throwing a fit during hood training sounds negative to the whole process. It seems like a waste of time after all the work to get them to accept it nicely only for them to throw a fit after the braces close. It just seems the end result is the same; a bird resenting the hooder. The bird might not hate the hood as much doing it this way because it gets rewarded through the hood but the he still sees you as the one the hoods him. I'm hoping best for you! I congratulate you for trying something off of the main path. Good luck! I enjoy reading your thread.

[JRedig]

Isn't there anyway you can go about this with out them throwing a fit? Them throwing a fit during hood training sounds negative to the whole process. It seems like a waste of time after all the work to get them to accept it nicely only for them to throw a fit after the braces close. It just seems the end result is the same; a bird resenting the hooder. The bird might not hate the hood as much doing it this way because it gets rewarded through the hood but the he still sees you as the one the hoods him. I'm hoping best for you! I congratulate you for trying something off of the main path. Good luck! I enjoy reading your thread.

Hi Isaac, how would you propose controlling the bird's reaction to the braces being closed? This is strictly in the interest of discussion, not a right or wrong scenario. I agree with your point that if there's a way to avoid it, by all means it should be done. I just don't see my way through it, maybe someone else does?

I think Jeff is doing it the best way you can, they have to come to terms with it and he's not allowing the bird visual stimulation(affirmation) while he's in the greatest state of dislike for the event he's unfamiliar with. Waiting until he's calmed and accepted the hood and then giving him a jackpot when removed should cement things in well. The bird might not like the braces being tightened right now, but he'll like the reward after a whole lot! The jump from one association to another goes pretty quickly, i'd imagine VERY quickly in a bird as mentally/reward/food stimulated as Apache.

[BestBeagler]

Hi Isaac, how would you propose controlling the bird's reaction to the braces being closed? This is strictly in the interest of discussion, not a right or wrong scenario. I agree with your point that if there's a way to avoid it, by all means it should be done. I just don't see my way through it, maybe someone else does?

I think Jeff is doing it the best way you can, they have to come to terms with it and he's not allowing the bird visual stimulation(affirmation) while he's in the greatest state of dislike for the event he's unfamiliar with. Waiting until he's calmed and accepted the hood and then giving him a jackpot when removed should cement things in well. The bird might not like the braces being tightened right now, but he'll like the reward after a whole lot! The jump from one association to another goes pretty quickly, i'd imagine VERY quickly in a bird as mentally/reward/food stimulated as Apache.

I don't know. I don't know very much about OC. What if you waited longer before closing the braces? Or use a hood after he excepts it well with no braces? One that just sits on. I have seen them before. There may not be a way around it but I wish there was.

[goshawkr]

I don't know. I don't know very much about OC. What if you waited longer before closing the braces? Or use a hood after he excepts it well with no braces? One that just sits on. I have seen them before. There may not be a way around it but I wish there was.

At some point, you just have to step up and seal the deal.

Jeff has been spending many days working on getthing his goshawk to accept the hood without the braces being struck. From the behaviours I have seen in the video he posted, I dont think he could have done any better on that foundation.

Perhaps he could have gradually ramped up the closing of the braces, by just closing them down a bit further each time the hood went on, but I dont see that being a big benifit. It would also be important to be prepared for the tantrum, because its not easy to easy the braces shut. They are desinged to close quickly and completely, and we are trained to snap them shut in under a second.

I am not anywhere near the purist that Layman is in terms of avoiding negative association, and I suppose that has lead me to taking a different tract with hooding. I try my best to avoid fear being tied to the hood - but I just hood my goshawks. I make it a daily routine. Everyday without fail, the hood goes on as gently as I can. Eventually they come to like it. I have attributed this to an odd counter intuitive thought loop they go through -they hate the scarry hood, and as soon as the hood is on they cant see the scary hood any more which is a big relief and they come to love the way the hood makes scary things go away. Goshawks HATE scary things.

Jeff - were you able to wait out the tantrum and take the hood off when your goshawk felt positive about it? I do my best to make sure the hood never comes off when the hawk is upset because an upset goshawk will often lash all its emotional trauma onto the first thing it sees and then hate that hing forever. However, I had one tiercel goshawk that threw a fit for over an hour and half and I had to give in.

[allredone]

This is honestly pretty awesome Jeff. Personally I had great luck hooding by sensory overload from day one with the chick. I would train them that the sensation of my hand gripped around their head was no threat and even a positive. I never had fits with the braces being drawn and I didn't wait for the feathers to be done growing. However many folks have tried to do this and ended up with birds that were unhoodable. I'm not sure what I'm doing other than lots of hooding. Both my first coopers and my first goshawk are with other falconers presently and they comment that they are both very easy to hood.

I think the training Jeff is doing with his bird is extremely powerful though. That video of the bird not footing him and not screaming while taking did bits form the hand in reward for hunting the hood is just perfect. The groundwork laid there will pay dividends in all kinds of training from here on out.

Nice work.

[rocgwp]

88 days - 775g

The hooding has progressed as planned thus far. After being hooded for the first time the night before last, he was upset for over an hour. I left him on the perch overnight and waited until the morning when he had calmed down and was hungry. I CRed and removed the hood. He looked at me like "What happened?" and then looked down to see an entire skinned quail in my fist. He ate as much as he wanted. While he was eating I hooded and unhooded him, CRing for the approach of the hood and his beak going in the hood. He had no issues with the hood or me.

Last night I worked him HARD again. He is getting to the point to where he is looking for ways to get fed without having to work so hard (this is a good thing). He knows if he flies straight at his food, it is going to take a LOT of effort to get it. He will turn around on the glove, look away from the food, search the room for another alternative, then turn around and finally push off for an RP. Once hooding is done, I will capitalize on this and begin capturing and shaping some new behaviors.

Currently (and conveniently) his only method that he knows to get fed without lots of effort is to be hooded. Last night I brought the hood up and it went on easily and I closed the braces. He was upset for about 15 minutes and then settled down and pulled up a foot. I left him there overnight. This morning when I CRed and removed the hood, he immediately looked down for his reward and began eating. He is understanding the game.

From here I will be able to go to multiple workout sessions in an evening. I can work him HARD for little reward, then offer the hood and let him rest for a little while. I can then unhood him for a larger reward and then do more workouts. This should really start building some muscle. It will also help solidify the hooding (work HARD for small rewards or hood for a big one).

[rocgwp]

Isn't there anyway you can go about this with out them throwing a fit? Them throwing a fit during hood training sounds negative to the whole process. It seems like a waste of time after all the work to get them to accept it nicely only for them to throw a fit after the braces close. It just seems the end result is the same; a bird resenting the hooder. The bird might not hate the hood as much doing it this way because it gets rewarded through the hood but the he still sees you as the one the hoods him. I'm hoping best for you! I congratulate you for trying something off of the main path. Good luck! I enjoy reading your thread.

I think Jeff and Geoff gave a pretty decent explanation of the tantrum. I had worked on closing the braces prior to the first time of actually closing them. I would slide the hood on and squeeze the back of the hood and then CR. There was no way to guarantee or predict exactly what Apache would do once the braces were closed. I needed to be ready for a tantrum in case it happened. By not removing the hood until he was calm and hungry, we are able to shape the behavior and turn it around. I'd love to find a way to avoid the fit if possible, but at this point I am unaware of one that guarantees no issues. This route allows me to be prepared in case a tantrum occurs and gives me a method to turn it around. All of the previous work wasn't wasted, it was the foundation for being able to turn the negative around.

[allredone]

This is brilliant stuff Jeff.

[rocgwp]

92 days - 795g

What a fun morning!!! I took Apache on a "walk about" and it turned into a squirrel hunt. I got to see a lot of things come together today. I had Apache on the fist and was walking with him unrestrained. I saw a grey squirrel feeding on the ground. I was able to walk around a building and get within 10 yds of the squirrel. As I rounded the corner I made my flushing noise and Apache slicked down anticipating something being tossed. He saw the squirrel and the squirrel bolted. He was after it! The squirrel made it to a tree and Apache pitched up and landed near the top of a pine (goshawks can go vertical like nothing I've ever seen). I was able to reflush the squirrel and he played catch and release with it. He caught and released it 3 times within 100yds. After that, we chased 8 more squirrels. He caught and released atleast 2 more, it was hard to see all the chases with the leaves on. He didn't have a great lure response since he was at such a high weight, so I waited for him to land low enough for me to step him up to the fist. He was exhausted! I hooded him and we walked about a half mile back to the mew. Once there I CRed and removed the hood. I tossed a quail for him and instead he did an RP to the water. He drank, cooled off, and then I hand fed him his meal.

I'll let him play and mirror squirrels until he decides he wants to catch one. I saw better chases with him today, than I saw with a cast of harrises all last year. A Goshawk's speed and maneuverability in the woods is incredible.

[allredone]

92 days - 795g

What a fun morning!!! I took Apache on a "walk about" and it turned into a squirrel hunt. I got to see a lot of things come together today. I had Apache on the fist and was walking with him unrestrained. I saw a grey squirrel feeding on the ground. I was able to walk around a building and get within 10 yds of the squirrel. As I rounded the corner I made my flushing noise and Apache slicked down anticipating something being tossed. He saw the squirrel and the squirrel bolted. He was after it! The squirrel made it to a tree and Apache pitched up and landed near the top of a pine (goshawks can go vertical like nothing I've ever seen). I was able to reflush the squirrel and he played catch and release with it. He caught and released it 3 times within 100yds. After that, we chased 8 more squirrels. He caught and released atleast 2 more, it was hard to see all the chases with the leaves on. He didn't have a great lure response since he was at such a high weight, so I waited for him to land low enough for me to step him up to the fist. He was exhausted! I hooded him and we walked about a half mile back to the mew. Once there I CRed and removed the hood. I tossed a quail for him and instead he did an RP to the water. He drank, cooled off, and then I hand fed him his meal.

I'll let him play and mirror squirrels until he decides he wants to catch one. I saw better chases with him today, than I saw with a cast of harrises all last year. A Goshawk's speed and maneuverability in the woods is incredible.

Dejavu Jeff. That sounds so familiar. All that play time catching squirrels will pay off. He is learning where the business end is and how to grab them from behind the neck and head. Those flits are great to watch aren't they?

This is about the time where traditional thought might tell you to cut weight to force him into holding onto one. Your way is so much better. I've seen it myself. Many goshawkers have. Without the desperation of a weight reduction making him do things that are dangerous he will learn to never get more than a scratch and be deadly on squirrels. My small Wisconsin female had feet that were really no bigger than Apache's and she killed them before I could get to her. Generally me and the dog would run along with her on her violent tears through the tree tops and she would rake one off and glide to the ground, sometimes 50-80 yards away. Surprisingly squirrels pass out in seconds when the gos closes their wind pipe with the talon tips. It was either that or shock.

I'm excited for you. I love the way a gos hits the pursuit game after tree squirrels. It's like someone tied a balloon to it's tail. A heat seeking missile.

Keep us posted.

By the way... No bells? That's awesome. Better to have lighter feet and be quicker footing.

If you want a tail bell I've got a good design for a break away bell clip that will pop out without pulling a feather. I always tied hunter orange flash tape to it so I could find it on the forest floor but Thankfully I never had to.

[allredone]

By the way possibly the coolest part of your post from today was the RPs to water instead of food.

People should really take a look at what you are doing. Seems like many austringers can't get the bird to come to the lure even without weight reduction. Let alone out in the dynamic flights you saw today. And to top it off he comes home and proves to you that hes not motivated by food alone.

Most of us fly birds so lean that food becomes the ONLY thing that matters to them. And that's because it works even if you don't have a clue what your raptor really is. Survival is a universal language. But What you are doing is in my opinion MUCH more powerful.

And more RELAXING. And more FUN. Sounds like your bird is quiet, well adjusted and not lean.

"FAT and HAPPY". Way to be.

[goshawkr]

By the way possibly the coolest part of your post from today was the RPs to water instead of food.

People should really take a look at what you are doing. Seems like many austringers can't get the bird to come to the lure even without weight reduction. Let alone out in the dynamic flights you saw today. And to top it off he comes home and proves to you that hes not motivated by food alone.

Most of us fly birds so lean that food becomes the ONLY thing that matters to them. And that's because it works even if you don't have a clue what your raptor really is. Survival is a universal language. But What you are doing is in my opinion MUCH more powerful.

And more RELAXING. And more FUN. Sounds like your bird is quiet, well adjusted and not lean.

"FAT and HAPPY". Way to be.

I agree - this is great stuff.

[Squirrelhawkin]

If you want a tail bell I've got a good design for a break away bell clip that will pop out without pulling a feather.

Could you post some pics of it?

[allredone]

Could you post some pics of it?

Yes absolutely. I'll put it in a separate post in Shortwings and post the link here in a few. It's very simple and requires no special tools. Just things you already have.

[rocgwp]

Had another good morning of squirrel chasing. We chased a lot of squirrels, but I couldn't see all the action due to the leaves on the trees. I know he put his feet on several. I am using a temporary bell on his anklet until I get a tail mount on. Without the bell, I would have been lost. We sure could use a break from the heat. 106 today, but Apache is taking it well.

I am going to work on his lure response some and see if I can establish some more field control with him.

[allredone]

Had another good morning of squirrel chasing. We chased a lot of squirrels, but I couldn't see all the action due to the leaves on the trees. I know he put his feet on several. I am using a temporary bell on his anklet until I get a tail mount on. Without the bell, I would have been lost. We sure could use a break from the heat. 106 today, but Apache is taking it well.

I am going to work on his lure response some and see if I can establish some more field control with him.

What do you use for a lure?

I hawked squirrels hard and I used a cotton tail or jack lure from Northwoods Limited. It's made from wallaby fur and is super durable. The cool part is that I just cut the meat tie off of it and the fur was a plucking reward. I never put food on my fur covered lure after the first introduction. After that my imprints wanted it because it was fun to catch and after some plucking I would toss tidbits out for them and transfer off.

I would never let the hawk catch the lure if it set its wings and was just gliding in. I would pull it in a circle around me and the hawk would have to fly at a stall in a slow circle to catch up to it in the air. Then I wouldn't let it drop to the ground until the hawk walked up the lures back and grabbed it near the, "head". But the moment it struck the head end I would drop it like a stone instantly and let them settle down catch their breath and pluck for a while. Then transfer off.

They seemed to get a tremendous amount of satisfaction from this. I seriously never garnished the lure and I would get intense lure recall response. I think goshawks like to work for a living and they are simply not as impressed by the drop and flop lure presentation of tossing the lure out on the ground. They love motion. I got great recall response with my tiercels above 800 grams in summer heat.

I think sibling rivalry may have had something to do with it too.

Contrary to popular rules i would frequently toy with my hawk and flash the lure to recall to the fist and then hide the lure in the back pocket of my game bag and flush a wild bird. It was a, "trick", in the sense that I did not give them the lure when I showed it to them. But this, "betrayal", only increased my birds lure response. It did not convince them that I was just going to trick them and might as well not come when called. Instead they knew that the lure may or may not be catchable but a 110% effort would be rewarded in some kind of way. It just wasn't predictable.

Anyhow. I don't claim to have figured something out but I stumbled into something that worked really well for my imprints with great field control. The only time I had a hard time getting my bird down was the first time I tried to call her down in tall grass close to dark.

Just a thought. One of my sponsors was not impressed years ago when I bought the fur covered lure from Northwoods. He liked all the other gear that I made myself and said the rabbit lure looked like something a, "Mastercard Falconer", would buy. But man that thing turned out to be one of my favorite tools. So durable too. Even with all that plucking there was never much of a bare spot on it and the shape and weight was just perfect for a hard strike from a goshawk and the bird could really get a grip and hold on to the thing.

They loved that lure but were never too possessive of it.

Just some thoughts. I don't know what others are doing. I hear all accipiters generally love their lures.

One friend lost his and kind of famously used a shoe swung by the lace. Too funny.

[sleeper2g]

That's exactly what one wants to avoid with using the clicker. You want the hawk to associate the food with himself, with behaviors he can do, not with the falconer. I'm sure it works great with a clicker-savvy falconer, as it works with every other species out there. Horse for example are well-known to become troublesome and bite if given treats. Use the clicker though, and they stop these behaviors as soon as they understand what to do to receive the food beside bullying the trainer.

I'm very interested in food delivery mechanics. We all know that hand-feeding a hawk results in being footed. I know about high-level tidbiting and it does work, but then you have to replace the clicker by a whistle or a noise made by the mouth for the mechanics become too complex. I have friends who clicker train free-lofted raptors in zoos using a stick to deliver the food and a whistle as a clicker, it works great but I still think it's a hassle. It would be great not having to worry about those feet! lol

Yes those are some big feet on that young bird, very nice pick, I am sure he will do well.

[allredone]

Could you post some pics of it?

Nick. Here is the link to the Break-Away tail bell post:

http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?p=202810#post202810

[rocgwp]

Haven't updated on Apache in a while so here goes. 2 big events have happened in the past 2 weeks...

Event 1:
While I was at work one afternoon, Apache was perched out in the covered weathering yard. A sudden strong storm blew in a ripped the top off of the weathering area. My wife was home and came to Apache's rescue. The soft sunscreen top came down on top of him. My wife pulled the screen off him, but not before he trashed his tail I was concerned about him mentally, but all seems to be okay. If anyone wants to send some goshawk feathers my way, I've got some imping to do. Otherwise, he'll be hunting with a broken rudder.

Event 2:
I had an extended business trip I had to go on. I was concerned that while I was gone, he would regress and potentially become aggressive since another falconer would be tossing him food without playing games. When I got back, there was no sign of aggression. He had pulled his jesses out and didn't want to come to the glove. I didn't want to risk a big negative event by putting jesses in and then him bating and potentially freaking out, so I only fed him small tidbits that he would step or hop to the fist for. He was loosing interest quickly, so I suspected that he was just really fat. After 2 days of that I was able to put jesses in and weigh him without any negatives. He weighed 815g (fat as I suspected). He is now perched out at my house settling back into his routine again. Once he gets serious again, so will I. We will start hitting the woods regularly.