Abatement & Eagle Prop Regs

[Saluqi]

See the NAFA website for links to the federal register where the USFWS is seeking comments on abatement and eagle propagation regulations.

http://www.n-a-f-a.com/members/MemberNews.htm

If someone has direct links to the federal register where these may be viewed please post them, thanks.

[AK Rev]

Thanks Paul. I also posted this to the IEAA list.

[Lowachi]

See the NAFA website for links to the federal register where the USFWS is seeking comments on abatement and eagle propagation regulations.

http://www.n-a-f-a.com/members/MemberNews.htm

If someone has direct links to the federal register where these may be viewed please post them, thanks.

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-06/pdf/2011-16877.pdf. as per LarryDickerson

[wyodjm]

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-06/pdf/2011-16877.pdf. as per LarryDickerson

Yes, that is the direct link to the Federal Register. Instructions for commenting are on this page.

[sevristh]

To add to these links, here is one that goes straight to the online comment form for eagle prop: http://www.regulations.gov/#!submitC...2011-0020-0001

And here is one for the abatement regulations: http://www.regulations.gov/#!submitComment;D=FWS-R9-MB-2009-0045-0001

[sevristh]

I have a few concerns regarding these two topics... I understand the first proposal is for whether bald and golden eagles should be allowed to be bred in captivity. Personally, I think it's unfortunate that the bald eagle was included in this comment period. I think it may hurt the chances of passing.

Regarding the second topic though, I am not sure what this is saying. Is it just to have an actual abatement permit rather than just doing abatement through your falconry license? I would think most falconers would be against this, no? Does anyone have any comments on why this might be a good idea? Basically, I guess I am saying I don't really have an informed opinion on this second matter (other than my instinct that less regulation is better!) and am looking for info... Thanks!

***EDIT*** This link includes the last page that is missing from Larry Dickerson's link as posted above. It includes the actual questions they are seeking comment on and answered some of my questions.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011...2011-16880.pdf

[Saluqi]

At this time there is no abatement permit per se, abatement is allowed on a special use permit. The USFWS is seeking to create an abatement permit which is separate from the special use permit.

[Jimmy]

I understand the first proposal is for whether bald and golden eagles should be allowed to be bred in captivity. Personally, I think it's unfortunate that the bald eagle was included in this comment period. I think it may hurt the chances of passing.

I think it's a great thing that both are included together. The native americans want to breed both. Our side mostly wants the golden, but I know a few that want the bald as well, especially if they're added back to the available falconry birds in the future. And by having them both included, we'll hopefully have a lot more positive comments from people in regards to the native americans breeding them, as well as us. It's a winning scenario in my opinion.

[wyodjm]

I have a few concerns regarding these two topics... I understand the first proposal is for whether bald and golden eagles should be allowed to be bred in captivity. Personally, I think it's unfortunate that the bald eagle was included in this comment period. I think it may hurt the chances of passing.

You read my mind Dave. Bald Eagles are not allowed as falconry birds.

[Jimmy]

You read my mind Dave. Bald Eagles are not allowed as falconry birds.

What does falconry birds have to do with this, Dan?

[Jimmy]

I hope everyone keeps in mind that falconry is only one of many legitimate user groups that can benefit from the propagation of eagles. We aren't the only ones this might effect. I personally hope that anyone who decides to comment, does so in a positive way for all the other user groups also.

[wyodjm]

What does falconry birds have to do with this, Dan?

Well, that depends on your perspective I guess.

If the feds keep micromanaging and tightening up the take of eagles in depredation areas for falconry purposes, I would imagine American eagle falconers would be looking to acquire captive bred birds for falconry purposes. Currently, captive bred eagles are the only source of eagles for falconry purposes in Europe. Not that is related in any way, but I thought I’d just bring that up.

That’s what falconry birds have to do with this. Will captive produced Golden Eagles be a potential source of birds to American eagle falconers if acquiring them from the wild becomes virtually impossible? Furthermore, I think the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is well aware of this. It will be interesting to see how all this pans out.

I hope everyone keeps in mind that falconry is only one of many legitimate user groups that can benefit from the propagation of eagles. We aren't the only ones this might effect. I personally hope that anyone who decides to comment, does so in a positive way for all the other user groups also.

That is true. However, it depends on the extent of the regulations and who it affects. I may be stepping out on a limb here, so please forgive me if I’m mistaken but zoos and Native American breeding aviaries may be exempt from eagle breeding regulations. Zoos have been exempt and have been breeding eagles for decades. At least one Native American aviary is breeding Golden Eagles right now.

So, the $64 question is who will these eagle breeding regulations affect if many of the other interests may already be exempt?

Some of the language in the Federal Register referencing RIN-1018-AX78 is misleading and just plain incorrect. It’s subtle, but wrong just the same.

[michaelberan]

http://www.federalregister.gov/artic...or-propagation

[rkumetz]

Am I missing something or are they simply trying to replace the "Special Use Permit - Abatement Using Raptors" with a new one called an "Abatement Permit" with the same exact requirements and regulations?

[Jimmy]

Am I missing something or are they simply trying to replace the "Special Use Permit - Abatement Using Raptors" with a new one called an "Abatement Permit" with the same exact requirements and regulations?

Nope, not missing anything from what I see. They're just creating another stand alone permit.

[Jimmy]

So, the $64 question is who will these eagle breeding regulations affect if many of the other interests may already be exempt?

Falconers, rehabbers, abatement permittees, education permittees, Native Americans, zoos. Anyone else who is legally allowed to posses eagles. Even though some may or may not already be exempt, they still stand to benefit from it being legal across the board.

On another note.... The comment period has only been out one day, and there's already several people on other venues voicing restrictive views and ideas that they think should be applied. Why the hell is it so hard for people to want less regs??

[sevristh]

On another note.... The comment period has only been out one day, and there's already several people on other venues voicing restrictive views and ideas that they think should be applied. Why the hell is it so hard for people to want less regs??

Jimmy,

Could you post a link to these? Or PM me with them if you don't want to post them publicly.

[Jimmy]

The person isn't here to defend himself, so I won't put it out there. Check your email though for more details.......

[AK Rev]

Dave, it's on a private group forum. We can't cross-post. It's just typical falconers and their opinions on how others should do falconry as they think is best. If you thought falconers were bad about that...you should see eagle falconers!

[Jimmy]

If you thought falconers were bad about that...you should see eagle falconers!

Understatement of the year...........

[sevristh]

Dave, it's on a private group forum. We can't cross-post. It's just typical falconers and their opinions on how others should do falconry as they think is best. If you thought falconers were bad about that...you should see eagle falconers!

Yeah, I just got done reading it... I would say that I can't believe the opinion expressed...but then I know better. All I could think when I was done (that didn't contain expletives) was "Wow..." Hopefully that comment is part of a very small minority.

[AK Rev]

Glad to hear that you disapprove on that subject Dave. I hope you participate in the open period for comments. The whole point we should be making is that golden eagles are just raptors and should be treated as such in the regs...not singled out. The science doesn't support it.

[Jimmy]

The whole point we should be making is that golden eagles are just raptors and should be treated as such in the regs....

Certainly seems that simple, huh?

[wyodjm]

Dave, it's on a private group forum. We can't cross-post. It's just typical falconers and their opinions on how others should do falconry as they think is best. If you thought falconers were bad about that...you should see eagle falconers!

Hi Bryan:

Am I missing something? Could you PM me and bring me up to speed if possible?

I'm for simple regs that protect the eagle resource, are enforceable, and are fair. I have always thought that was a safe and firmly grounded premise. I'm wondering these days, however, if I need my head examined and if I'm looking at things properly.

I don't know what the big deal is with eagles. I have spent so much time and energy trying to keep our legal depredation areas open here. I would like to see properly licensed and qualified falconers get Golden Eagles from the wild for falconry purposes.

PM me if you can.

Best,

Dan

[wyodjm]

On another note.... The comment period has only been out one day, and there's already several people on other venues voicing restrictive views and ideas that they think should be applied. Why the hell is it so hard for people to want less regs??

There may be a simple reason for that. Some people think that if we have more bureaucracy, more micromanagement, and more restrictive regulations, then we as falconers will appease the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and keep the wolf away from the door.

I’d like to point out that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service must be feeling pretty good these days. They are basically an autonomous federal agency, made up of non-elected bureaucrats with a huge amount of regulatory power, and they basically answer to no one.

Please forgive me for lamenting and screaming from the rooftops, but the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in their infinite wisdom, does not want private individuals possessing eagles for falconry purposes. They will continue to promote that agenda until they succeed or until the American public stops them.

Even though the breeding regulations concerning eagles are up for public comment, I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that they have already made their mind up when it comes to breeding eagles. Golden Eagles are a common species in North America. They have never been endangered or threatened at the federal level. Yet the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is using the Eagle Act to abuse their management authority, power and control.

The writing’s on the wall. It’s almost too late folks.

I’d like to close by sharing something that may validate my suspicions. I have come to the conclusion that us getting eagle depredation areas opened up for falconry take over 15 years ago may have been an accident. It was a fluke. I don’t think the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ever intended people to get eagles out of the wild for falconry purposes. They have been trying like mad to repair that chink in their administrative armor ever since. Even though the Eagle Act says we can, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is trying to close a door that wasn’t supposed to be opened. They’re smarter now. And here we have the possibility of private individuals being allowed to breed eagles up for public comment.

[FredFogg]

There may be a simple reason for that. Some people think that if we have more bureaucracy, more micromanagement, and more restrictive regulations, then we as falconers will appease the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and keep the wolf away from the door.

I’d like to point out that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service must be feeling pretty good these days. They are basically an autonomous federal agency, made up of non-elected bureaucrats with a huge amount of regulatory power, and they basically answer to no one.

Please forgive me for lamenting and screaming from the rooftops, but the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in their infinite wisdom, does not want private individuals possessing eagles for falconry purposes. They will continue to promote that agenda until they succeed or until the American public stops them.

Even though the breeding regulations concerning eagles are up for public comment, I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that they have already made their mind up when it comes to breeding eagles. Golden Eagles are a common species in North America. They have never been endangered or threatened at the federal level. Yet the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is using the Eagle Act to abuse their management authority, power and control.

The writing’s on the wall. It’s almost too late folks.

I’d like to close by sharing something that may validate my suspicions. I have come to the conclusion that us getting eagle depredation areas opened up for falconry take over 15 years ago was an accident. It was a fluke. I don’t think the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ever intended people to get eagles out of the wild for falconry purposes. They have been trying like mad to repair that chink in their administrative armor ever since. Even though the Eagle Act says we can, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is trying to close the door that wasn’t supposed to be opened. They’re smarter now. And here we have the possibility of private individuals being allowed to breed eagles up for public comment.

Dan, thanks for your optomistic view! Geeez!

[wyodjm]

Dan, thanks for your optomistic view! Geeez!

I'm not giving up. I'm still in the fight. It just seems a bit lonely at times. Am I the only one who sees this? My thinking is either all wrong or right on. You decide.

Thanks for your comments Fred.

[Jimmy]

Even though the breeding regulations concerning eagles are up for public comment, I’ll bet you dollars to donuts that they have already made their mind up when it comes to breeding eagles.

I agree with this. While I'll certainly be sending in my comments, I also feel that they've already made all the decisions they're going to. They're just using the comment period to stay legal.

[AK Rev]

I agree with this. While I'll certainly be sending in my comments, I also feel that they've already made all the decisions they're going to. They're just using the comment period to stay legal.

Almost certainly but we have to do something. I am thankful that we have a comment period that IS public record. We also know that some of them read this forum.

[FredFogg]

I'm not giving up. I'm still in the fight. It just seems a bit lonely at times. Am I the only one who sees this? My thinking is either all wrong or right on. You decide.

Thanks for your comments Fred.

Dan, don't get me wrong! There are many of us here that appreciate your fighting for all falconers rights as this isn't just about eagles. And I don't believe your thinking is all wrong, nor do I think it is all right. From your post, I believe you have a great base but I also think you have made a decision about your views and sometimes you only look at that view and aren't looking outside the box sometimes. Keep doing what you are doing, it is more likely to get results than doing nothing.

And to be honest, what I believe is that it is going to take someone with a lot of money to contact someone with a lot of power and that is how this whole thing will be straightened out. It is called politics and that is how things get done in our government agencies nowdays. Sorry to be blunt, but that is just how I see it.

[wyodjm]

Dan, don't get me wrong! There are many of us here that appreciate your fighting for all falconers rights as this isn't just about eagles. And I don't believe your thinking is all wrong, nor do I think it is all right. From your post, I believe you have a great base but I also think you have made a decision about your views and sometimes you only look at that view and aren't looking outside the box sometimes. Keep doing what you are doing, it is more likely to get results than doing nothing.

And to be honest, what I believe is that it is going to take someone with a lot of money to contact someone with a lot of power and that is how this whole thing will be straightened out. It is called politics and that is how things get done in our government agencies nowdays. Sorry to be blunt, but that is just how I see it.

Fred, I haven't got a problem with your view. I agree with you about the politics. And using the political arena, we need to make our voice heard. We're a very small group of sportsmen, but that doesn't mean we're invisible.

And I also agree with you that this issue may involve more than just eagles. I tried to make that point from day one.

Best,

[goshawkr]

There may be a simple reason for that. Some people think that if we have more bureaucracy, more micromanagement, and more restrictive regulations, then we as falconers will appease the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and keep the wolf away from the door.

I think you are right on the money about this, at least in many cases. I do however, think that something else is at work. In same cases in concert with the cause you mentioned, and in same cases as a completely seperate source of motivation.

There is an odd aspect of human nature that I dont really fully understand, but that seems to be very pervasive. I have seen in accross a wide spectrum of minority groups that I am involved with, and falconers hit the pattern to a "T". Actually, falconers are some of the worst I have ever seen at this - especially US falconers that were licensed after the federal regulations went in place in the 70's.

The crux of it comes down to an "Us" vs "Them" mentality. I think this is rooted in the days when we lived in small villiages competeing with those who lived in other small villiages for resources, which is of course our natural state of existence. We are absolutely wired at some very basic level to view those who we agree with as allies, and those who we disagree with as foes, and often this boils out very intensely.

To bring this basic aspect of human nature into focus on the current topic, there is a strong tendancy among "post 70's" U.S. falconers to view the way they want to practice falconry (or propagation, or whatever) as "right", and to get very worked up about anyone who does it in a way they disagree with. And the regulations are a very convenient hammer that can be used to impose their view of "right" and "wrong" onto the way other falconers practice.

What utterly baffles me is that these same people fail to understand that as they are wrapping that rope of regulation on their fellow falconers they are tying the same noose about their own heads, and cutting off their own air. We should all be pressing HARD for as much freedom as possible, on all fronts. The only tenable reason for restrciting that freedom are absolute matters of public safety and matters of biological sustainablity.

And there is a thrid aspect to this, that is not completely seperate from either the motivation Dan mentioned, or the "US" vs "Them" dynamic. Restrictive regulations create an elitism. Those choice few who are willing to jump through the inane hoops to become a falconer (or propagotr, or eagle propagtor) can think of themselves as very special, because few are willing to do it. Naturally, they prefer thinking that few are ABLE to do it, but the reality of the matter is most sane people who have an interest in these activities look at the legal hurdles and legal risks for running afoul of the regs and would rather invest their energy elsewhere. Some of those falconers who were behind authoring the first round of federal regulations have stated that part of the reason why they made them so restrictive was to maintain this elitism.

I’d like to close by sharing something that may validate my suspicions. I have come to the conclusion that us getting eagle depredation areas opened up for falconry take over 15 years ago may have been an accident. It was a fluke. I don’t think the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service ever intended people to get eagles out of the wild for falconry purposes. They have been trying like mad to repair that chink in their administrative armor ever since. Even though the Eagle Act says we can, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service is trying to close a door that wasn’t supposed to be opened. They’re smarter now. And here we have the possibility of private individuals being allowed to breed eagles up for public comment.

I was watching very closely while you, and Tom, and Lee and a handful of others cracked open that door. I think its very safe to say the Service didnt intend for it to happen, but at the same time it wasnt an accident. It was cracked open by a few poltically saavy eagle falconers, and despite a few other eagle falconers trying to make themselve look good to the Service by tattling on what you were up to.

I think your right on the money - they may well have been stewing and plotting at how to get that door closed again. There is certainly more going on than meets the eye. I am not a conspiracy theory sorta guy...and I am certainly not paranoid. But there is most definately something going on behind the scene that we are not meant to see. I feel a bit like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz wondering whats behind the curtain.

I do want to take a step back here though. The Service does NOT have to reopen the comments about breeding eagles. When the new Propagation regulations were proposed in '06(?) and placed on the register for comment, breeding of golden eagles was a part of things then. The Service then determined sometime between then and when the final rules were published this year that allowing the breeding of eagles under raptor propagation permits was more than they wanted to deal with. They had absolutely NO need to rexamine the issue. They could have simply considered the matter settled. So why open it for comment?

George Allen is a good guy who really cares about our community. I have no doubt about that at all. I got the impression from a few conversations with him that he really dosnt see eagles for falconry being a big deal. He is, however, placed in the middle of the maelstorm, and forced to work with elements of the FWS who take a more dim view of falconry and falconers. Some of these, no doubt, are either veterans of the Operation Falcon days or the protege's of those veterans with the same attitudes and the same misconceptions of falconers. The last time I talked to him, he very sadly indicated that he had to conceed on some points on the regulations to get things through, and was hopeful that we could make strides the next time the are examined. Politics is, and always has been, a game of compromise.

Maybe the FWS is considering allowing the captive breeding of eagles to help relieve the preassure to keep access to depreating eagles open. Maybe they are just considering it because its a good idea. Who knows...

Eagles are absolutely a bit more dangerous to handle than your run of the mill raptor. However, there is no biological reason to treat them any differently. A bit of extra caution is warrented to make sure that those who handle them are not putting the public at risk, and then its just a hawk. Thats all it should be. Thats all it should be in the regs - falconry, breeding, and education. For that matter, eagles could make a great way to haze canadian geese in abatement activities I would think.

Anyway, thats all I have time to post for now. Time to climb down the fire escape to make sure I am not followed.....

[AK Rev]

Eagles abating geese...probably just a dream but not a bad one! What a visual that one is.

[sevristh]

We should all be pressing HARD for as much freedom as possible, on all fronts. The only tenable reason for restrciting that freedom are absolute matters of public safety and matters of biological sustainablity.

Excellent post Geoff! Those two sentences really sum it up.

[JRedig]

Absolutely fantastic post Geoff.

I think the crux of this is: Aside from suing the FWS or getting into the political game at the federal level, what can we do? This comes from above George Allen without question. We have him as our contact, but this obviously isn't up to him. So who is making these calls and how do we get their attention?

Who's got the money and time to take them to trial?

or

How do we get the falconry community together to send letters and appropriately get what is rightfully ours through political channels?