Disguising your face

[Hawkingcolorado]

I wonder if when getting any new bird, whether trapped passage, or picking up a chamber raised bird, you would lessen the "bad impression" it had of you by disguising yourself, when you first cast the bird, and jesse it up......

[Saluqi]

In Ken Riddle's recent book he advocates doing this, both covering the hands and face. Steve Layman also has been doing this for a while, both when taking a bird off the trap and when pulling them from a nest. Seems like a small precaution to take to avoid the initial trauma of human contact.

[kitana]

Funny that you ask, I've just finished reading Layman's article passager to imprint and I like the way he deals with passage birds, hiding himself at all time either by using cloths or the hood... Makes me think seriously about using this method for my future accipiter instead of taking the risk of creating a bad imprint...

[Hawkingcolorado]

Funny that you ask, I've just finished reading Layman's article passager to imprint and I like the way he deals with passage birds, hiding himself at all time either by using cloths or the hood... Makes me think seriously about using this method for my future accipiter instead of taking the risk of creating a bad imprint...

I too just read that article...I'm picking up a new MHH tomorrow at the airport. I will give it a shot..I'll have to remember to NOT have a ski mask on when I drive into the airport

[goshawkr]

I too just read that article...I'm picking up a new MHH tomorrow at the airport. I will give it a shot..I'll have to remember to NOT have a ski mask on when I drive into the airport

Layman goes to extremes at avoiding fear with all hawks now.

I think this is a bit nuts, because there is definately a point of diminishing returns. I think a CB Harris' is a good example of diminishing returns. They come around so quickly, and tame so thoroughly with more traditional methods that I think taking the extreme fear avoidance route is overkill.

But it does make a difference, even with them.

And its not my time that will be spent on the endevour.

Avoiding as much negative association as possible is a great goal. But I temper that, at times, by doing a little mental calculation:
(how much fear/trauma will be involved) + (how difficult to overcome because of the nature of the hawk) / (how much of a PIA it will be to avoid/reduce the trauma) = my course of action.

Steve's current practice is to avoid all fear always with all hawks if possible. That is not a bad thing, just more effort than I want to saddle myself with.

[Bird_Dog]

Here are links to research by Dr. Marzluff of University if Washington. He studies long-term face recognition in Crows. (the so-called friend or foe study done in downtown Seattle) It seems to have relevance to the current discussion. http://www.cfr.washington.edu/spotlight.shtml http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/sc...crow.html?_r=2

something to think about

-- Scott

[outhawkn]

Personally, I dont believe it would make any difference at all.....

[JRedig]

I absolutely believe in hiding yourself, it does make a difference and makes all the initial processes much easier. Such a simple thing to do, why wouldn't you avoid any potential negatives of you/your face or your hand?

[outhawkn]

I absolutely believe in hiding yourself, it does make a difference and makes all the initial processes much easier. Such a simple thing to do, why wouldn't you avoid any potential negatives of you/your face or your hand?

Hi Jeff

In what way does it make a difference?

[JRedig]

Hi Jeff

In what way does it make a difference?

Hey Bill, it works on quite a few levels, IMO.

If the bird does not have a big negative experience with you and handling it initially (think the classic freshly trapped redtail pose), you have that much less to overcome in manning. The bird will not have to be reduced as much in weight, if at all and will trust you much sooner.

That keeps the bird in better health and can help fend off things like asper taking hold. Why take them through the process of losing conditioning etc if you don't have too?

If the first time the bird see's you and your hand, there is food and a quiet dimly lit room, what association does that establish from the beginning? A positive one. Why create more work for yourself? Sure they can have short term memories and forget all that stuff, i'd just rather avoid it and make progress sooner.

[Saluqi]

Hi Jeff

In what way does it make a difference?

I can tell you the theory behind it, or at least my hackneyed version. It's based on "trauma learning", which is basically anything that is learned while in a trauma state is very difficult to unlearn. So if you trap a bird on a BC let's say, and you go running up to the bird and it flips on its back, feet out front, hackles up, hissing the bird is in a trauma state. If the first thing it sees are my big old hands grasping for for it, and my big old ugly head leaning over it, and staring at it with my big eyes (often thought of as an act of aggression in the animal world), then there is a good chance that the bird will learn automatically to fear hands, people in general, and me specifically. Now imagine approaching the bird while holding a big beach towel in front of you and placing it over the bird so it never gets to see you, you've more or less eliminated the people from the equation in the trauma learning sequence. In my experience the less trauma inflicted on a bird, the more steady and less fear that bird will show in the future. I'm still amazed that more people don't keep freshly trapped birds hooded until well after they are eating on the fist, I know the total immersion approach works with redtails and most other birds, but using the slow "bringing into the light" approach makes for a steadier bird in the long term.

[bobpayne]

I wonder if when getting any new bird, whether trapped passage, or picking up a chamber raised bird, you would lessen the "bad impression" it had of you by disguising yourself, when you first cast the bird, and jesse it up......

I try to hide my face whenever possible, when negitive stuff is going down. Don't talk either if I can get away with it.

I equate it to knowing who slapped me down and had his way with me and wondering what that blob thing is that took me down........not that I have not overcome the trapping experinces for yrs, b4 I decided to do so.

covering yourself is better, my two cents.

[Red-tail71]

I wonder if when getting any new bird, whether trapped passage, or picking up a chamber raised bird, you would lessen the "bad impression" it had of you by disguising yourself, when you first cast the bird, and jesse it up......

I disguised my face this year while trapping....lol!!!

TRAPPING


AFTER TRAPPING

[jkruer01]

I think it is important to note that Steve Layman works with accipiters and specifically goshawks mainly. There are a lot of things you can get away with when dealing with a RT or a HH that won't fly so to speak when dealing with an accipiter.

With that being said, a buddy of mine is friends with Steve Layman and he taught me most of Steve Layman's techniques and I use them with my RTs. Sure it may be a little extra work but in the end I think it is worth it. Besides, it will be a good experience for me once I move into the accipiters.

Jeremy

[JRedig]

I think it is important to note that Steve Layman works with accipiters and specifically goshawks mainly.

That's not even close, sorry. He has quite the menagerie at the moment with a wide spread variety of birds and animals at his house. I don't know of a species he hasn't worked with that's common in falconry.

[goshawkr]

I think it is important to note that Steve Layman works with accipiters and specifically goshawks mainly. There are a lot of things you can get away with when dealing with a RT or a HH that won't fly so to speak when dealing with an accipiter.

With that being said, a buddy of mine is friends with Steve Layman and he taught me most of Steve Layman's techniques and I use them with my RTs. Sure it may be a little extra work but in the end I think it is worth it. Besides, it will be a good experience for me once I move into the accipiters.

Jeremy

The Imprint into Accipiter article was developed while he was working with Prairie falcons. He also usually has a flock of apprentices that he is teaching, and during the time he wrote that article he was guiding them to try his ideas on redtails.

He has specialized in goshawks for the last 13 years, and that is exclusively what he has flown for falconry with the exception of one coopers hawk.

But he has flown almost everything available for falconry, and trained many that are not used for falconry for others.

[goshawkr]

The Imprint into Accipiter article was developed while he was working with Prairie falcons. He also usually has a flock of apprentices that he is teaching, and during the time he wrote that article he was guiding them to try his ideas on redtails.

He has specialized in goshawks for the last 13 years, and that is exclusively what he has flown for falconry with the exception of one coopers hawk.

But he has flown almost everything available for falconry, and trained many that are not used for falconry for others.

I also ment to mention that when Layman was coming up with these ideas, he was unsure if an accipiter could even be "switched" to imprint like behavior. Since that time, they have proven to work on accipiters although no one has yet taken a passage tiercel and gotten it be a volontary semen donor yet.

[jkruer01]

Yes, I understand he has experience with most species. I did not mean to imply in anyway that he only has experience with goshawks or accipiters. The point I was trying to make was that RTs allow you to get away with a lot more than many other species of birds. Just because Layman's techniques may seem like overkill with a RT (to some) doesn't mean you won't see benefits of using them with a RT (which I do).

Thanks!
Jeremy

[Steveo]

I know this is quite the old thread, but I had a thought while reading: when taking steps to avoid undesirable trauma learning (hiding face, etc.), would it also be a good idea to trap a bird using an atypical prey item or a prey item you don't intend to hunt? For example, if trapping a kessie to hunt sparrows and starlings, using rodents or insects to do the trapping. I would think a bird trapped on sparrows would develop an aversion to them.

Taking the idea another step forward ,would it be a good idea to trap with something you don't want the bird to hunt? Again, using a kessie as an example, would trapping on a pile of grasshoppers create an aversion to them, and therefore increase the odds that the bird would focus on other prey items?

Has anyone experimented with this?

[Minkenry]

I know this topic is about birds of prey and associating a bad experience with the falconer, but let me chime in here with an off topic example to confirm the belief that it helps to avoid associating a bad experience with the animal's new handler.

When taming mink I have often had the internal battle of how to put a harness on a mink with out holding them down. With a falcon you can avoid the negative association by not letting them see you when you cast them to put on their equipment. With a mink, however, they see more with their nose than they do their eyes,and there is nothing you can do to block their sense of sell. So throughout the years I've struggled to find a way to put a harness on a mink in the least stressful way possible to avoid that negative first impression. Years later when I finally found a way to do it (I created a little device they run through and it basically puts the harness on for me) I found that the mink did tame down MUCH sooner than the ones that had to be stressed out to put the harness on.

Avoiding that negative association could save me a week or two in the training/taming process with a new mink, and save me a few unexpected bites when I decided to take the glove off.

[BestBeagler]

I know this topic is about birds of prey and associating a bad experience with the falconer, but let me chime in here with an off topic example to confirm the belief that it helps to avoid associating a bad experience with the animal's new handler.

When taming mink I have often had the internal battle of how to put a harness on a mink with out holding them down. With a falcon you can avoid the negative association by not letting them see you when you cast them to put on their equipment. With a mink, however, they see more with their nose than they do their eyes,and there is nothing you can do to block their sense of sell. So throughout the years I've struggled to find a way to put a harness on a mink in the least stressful way possible to avoid that negative first impression. Years later when I finally found a way to do it (I created a little device they run through and it basically puts the harness on for me) I found that the mink did tame down MUCH sooner than the ones that had to be stressed out to put the harness on.

Avoiding that negative association could save me a week or two in the training/taming process with a new mink, and save me a few unexpected bites when I decided to take the glove off.

That's cool. I am sure it can make a difference with some individuals maybe to all but to a different extent with each.

[goshawkr]

I know this topic is about birds of prey and associating a bad experience with the falconer, but let me chime in here with an off topic example to confirm the belief that it helps to avoid associating a bad experience with the animal's new handler.

With a mink, however, they see more with their nose than they do their eyes,and there is nothing you can do to block their sense of sell. .

I don't want to belabor a non topic tangent, so will be very brief, but if you think there is nothing you can do to block the sense of smell your just not being creative.

As an example, horses being prey animals themselves, are very sensitive to the smell of blood and raw meat and dead things. An old cowboy trick that is extremely effective to get a deer or elk carcass loaded onto a pack horse is to quickly and gently smear a lot of fresh blood just outside their nostril. Then all the horse can smell is blood, they calm down quickly, and you can load them up. By the time the smell in their nose disappates they are fine with whats on their back.

I have pulled similar tricks with wild (as in barely tame) ferrets when starting to work with them. Not using blood of course. It is pretty difficult to shut downt he sense of smell through something like a hood, but its a cinch to overload it and make it irrelevant.

[thebooster99]

Isaac, the pine needles have been scientifically proven to kill asper spores.

[longwinger2010]

I actually have a trapping disguise...it's a orange yellow blue dreadlock winter cap and a black stocking head mask....an orange/yellow tye dye shirt and bright yellow gloves !

I keep it in a bag in the closet and never take it out unless I am out trapping.