Dark Phased.

[canvibe]

Morph, phase, variation. Shall we just call it a mutation? That would be accurate. But really you're just splitting hairs. I don't think that there is a definitive term for these birds, a term accepted by scientists and falconers. Until there is a term accepted by both then why bicker?
I think we can all agree that they are very interesting looking birds.

One could bicker, split hairs, and argue that the use of mutation in regards to naturally occurring color variations is incorrect.

[Zarafia]

Not really. It's pretty universally accepted that mutations are how everything different comes to be. From what I understand anyway. Maybe I'm mistaken.

[canvibe]

I think when they use the term 'morph' in this case it is short for morphology, in other words: 'One of various distinct forms of an organism or species.' And, regardless if it is a Harlan's or a RT, it is dark and therefore a dark morph. There are light morph Harlan's, although when I think of Harlan's I must admit to thinking that the normal plumage is dark and the lighter plumage is probably the lesser known. Much like the dark plumage is not average for an RT.

Morphs must occupy the same habitat at the same time: this would exclude geographical species such as the Harlan's. I believe you are confusing the Harlan's with what is commonly called a "Dark Morph RT".

Morph is not short for Morphology,
It is actually a Greek word meaning Form. But if you add the Greek word Logos meaning Study, I guess you do end up creating Form+Study (Morphe+Logos) = Morphology.

[canvibe]

Not really. It's pretty universally accepted that mutations are how everything different comes to be. From what I understand anyway. Maybe I'm mistaken.

Natural Selection is usually the most powerful mechanism or process causing evolution to occur, however, it only selects among the existing variation already in a population. Variations resulting by both Mutation and Recombination. Recombination being the more potent one of the two, thus resulting in quicker evolutionary changes.

[PeteJ]

Morphs must occupy the same habitat at the same time: this would exclude geographical species such as the Harlan's. I believe you are confusing the Harlan's with what is commonly called a "Dark Morph RT".

Morph is not short for Morphology,
It is actually a Greek word meaning Form. But if you add the Greek word Logos meaning Study, I guess you do end up creating Form+Study (Morphe+Logos) = Morphology.

LOL...morph + ology...duh! You're catching on. I am not confusing anything. I know it is a dark morph RT. It may be a Harlan's or a dark morph western RT, but I think what you are confused about is that you're thinking that a Harlan's is separate species. The long standing accepted scientific consensus is that it is a race of the RT. Therefore, with the extensive range of RT (the whole of North America except the arctic tundra) then the Harlan's would occur in the same habitat at the same time. So, its like thinking that pale race B. j. kriderii is somehow a separate species that we should call "Krider's Hawk". Well, sorry, it isn't. Keep trying to look at the big picture because the details do not matter as they represent a very small portion of any population.

[canvibe]

LOL...morph + ology...duh! You're catching on. I am not confusing anything. I know it is a dark morph RT. It may be a Harlan's or a dark morph western RT, but I think what you are confused about is that you're thinking that a Harlan's is separate species. The long standing accepted scientific consensus is that it is a race of the RT. Therefore, with the extensive range of RT (the whole of North America except the arctic tundra) then the Harlan's would occur in the same habitat at the same time. So, its like thinking that pale race B. j. kriderii is somehow a separate species that we should call "Krider's Hawk". Well, sorry, it isn't. Keep trying to look at the big picture because the details do not matter as they represent a very small portion of any population.

Peat, I never stated that I believe the Harlan's (Buteo Jamaicensis Harlani) to be a separate species, in fact I believe it to be a Subspecies of Buteo Jamaicensis.

[wyodjm]

Here's a dark passage Redtail I trapped in Farson, Wyoming in 1982. She was trapped in October. When she moulted out, she looked like a miniature Golden Eagle. She was cool. A great bird. I used to fly her out of a soar on cottontails. I released her at the end of her third season.

For the Redtail guys out there, what would you have called her? I have no idea.

Note the Erik Tabb Anglo-Indian hood and the dog-skin glove from Jack Stoddart. The glove was made by an old glove maker in Holland. Hawking bag from John Moran.

[robhawkyyz]

redtails mix and intermingle eventually they will all be " gray "... again .. or green, or whatever color they started with.... and, they will start wearing Dans' cool sunglasses from the 80's too. LOL ... having said that. it looks like a dark morph mixxed with a , what we know as a normal redtail and genes rescesive or dominant prevailed , we may never know because we don't have or see the parents of that hawk.

[PeteJ]

Dan, she looked like one of those red morph ones we see quite often down here. To me the are actually one of the prettiest RTs because the have so much saturated color and that really intense belly band. In the second pic it looked like the upper breast got really a nice dark rufous color right? This immature probably looked quite similar to yours in that top pic and it would have molted out to be red morph.

This second one is an adult that is across town and has been on that same pole for about three winters in a row.

[canvibe]

Dan, Intermediate-Dark Morph Western Red-Tailed Hawk (Buteo jamaicensis calurus) would be my guess

[wyodjm]

Thanks Rob, Pete, and Greg.

My best to you and yours.

Dan

[PeteJ]

Just to show you how confusing the NA Buteos can be, check on this link to a pic of, probably immature, Harlan's. Now I could definitely see a person mistaking this one for an American Rough-legged Hawk except that you can clearly see in the photo that it doesn't have feathered tarsi. http://www.azfo.org/gallery/2011/htm...mber_2011.html

[wyodjm]

redtails mix and intermingle eventually they will all be " gray "... again .. or green, or whatever color they started with.... and, they will start wearing Dans' cool sunglasses from the 80's too. LOL ... having said that. it looks like a dark morph mixxed with a , what we know as a normal redtail and genes rescesive or dominant prevailed , we may never know because we don't have or see the parents of that hawk.

Come to think of it, those were prescription glasses also. Photograys they were called. They would darken when you went outside.

Best,

[wyodjm]

Dan, she looked like one of those red morph ones we see quite often down here. To me the are actually one of the prettiest RTs because the have so much saturated color and that really intense belly band. In the second pic it looked like the upper breast got really a nice dark rufous color right? This immature probably looked quite similar to yours in that top pic and it would have molted out to be red morph.

Yes, very similar Pete. The bird I had was really good looking.

Best,

[canvibe]

Here are some pics of a male RT that I released after his first molt.
His tail feathers were in my opinion Harlanish.

[cllhawker]

This bird almost looks as if he is a darker Krider's Morph....

[RyanAnt]

I am pretty sure my tiercel Red-tail is a Harlan's. What do you guys think? Do you think he'll get darker after the moult? <-- Ok not this one....

But this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14817634@N07/6818092881/

[PeteJ]

Usually one like that will get darker or perhaps more reddish. But best guess it will just go darker as its predominant color is dark brown rather than dark brown and reddish.

[RyanAnt]

Sweet! Thanks Pete! Looking forward to seeing how he turns out

- Ryan

[moperegrine]

Here's a Harlan's for comparison to some of the other photos... Trapped him at 955g this January and he's off the creance. Should fly next week after bunnies.



Christian Hagenlocher
St. Louis, MO

[Keith Denman]

My first redtail was a Harlan's I unfortunately lost all my photos to a hard drive crash. He was dark chocolated brown all over top and underside with yellow spots on his chest.

[canvibe]

Here's a Harlan's for comparison to some of the other photos... Trapped him at 955g this January and he's off the creance. Should fly next week after bunnies.



Christian Hagenlocher
St. Louis, MO

Are you sure your Harlan's is a male? At 995 grams it could be a female.

[Shokokuphoenix]

Here are some pics of a male RT that I released after his first molt.
His tail feathers were in my opinion Harlanish.

Definitely a light morph Harlan's bird you've got there; that completely random-arse tail patterning is absolutely diagnostic as a Harlan's tail. Me and a buddy of mine trapped a little 740g male light morph Harlan's tiercel who looked a heck of a lot like that bird. Very similar tail, too.

PS: The only thing that's regular about the tails of Harlan's hawks is that they must be totally, completely random! I'm talking even as weird as the left and right sides of each individual feather being COMPLETELY differently patterned and colored from each other, and totally looking like they belong on different birds. ;D

[RyanAnt]

Here's a Harlan's for comparison to some of the other photos... Trapped him at 955g this January and he's off the creance. Should fly next week after bunnies.



Christian Hagenlocher
St. Louis, MO

Did you keep this guy through the molt Christian? If so, post pictures. I had a RT that looked exactly the same! No kidding, the barring on wings and tail were the same. I was going to keep it through the molt but unfortunately it got stolen out of the mews. I am just curious to know what he may have looked like.

[moperegrine]

Ryan,

This bird flew off earlier in the year, and so I did not get to keep him through the molt... I still look at photos of him wondering what he looks like today...

Christian

[grimmy440]

is it just me, or do the head/beak of the original pics look odd for a red tail?

[Lowachi]

is it just me, or do the head/beak of the original pics look odd for a red tail?

cause the original isn't a redtail.....

[moperegrine]

Are we talking about the first image? Right at the beginning of the thread?

If so, that bird is a dark-morph adult western red-tail. Juvenile zonies have slightly different field marks... Just wanted to re-clarify, since this was discussed at the beginning of the thread.

The beak doesn't look off to me, but maybe it's the picture angle?

[PeteJ]

cause the original isn't a redtail.....

Sorry Rich, see post #3.

[Lowachi]

Sorry Rich, see post #3.

I said yesterday my eyes were getting worse. I apologize.....again

[moperegrine]

I apologize for not signing my last post- at work all my emails have my signature on them, and being at work I forgot to sign it. I apologize for violating the rules! I can't figure out how to edit it either. bummer.

Best,

Christian
St. Louis, MO

[Lowachi]

I apologize for not signing my last post- at work all my emails have my signature on them, and being at work I forgot to sign it. I apologize for violating the rules! I can't figure out how to edit it either. bummer.

Best,

Christian
St. Louis, MO

no worries, Mario'll fix it

[grimmy440]

yes, i was talking about the VERY first pictures, that started off the thread

[RyanAnt]

Thanks Christian. I just noticed your reply. Guess we'll never know. Will have to trap another one to find out!

[moperegrine]

I plan on doing that! Learned a lot this year, and should have better success in the future. Harlan's sure are pretty birds!

Christian