NAFA on KSL Outdoors

[DLemieux]

Footage from the Vernal meet. A good piece with good footage. I only cringed a couple times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYkWi...&feature=share

[UTFalconer]

"Cringed"? Over a dead rabbit?

[mainefalconer]

Nope..... Darren doesn't have a problem with dead rabbits (or hares). I suspect that he wasn't particularly thrilled to see a fellow falconer tossing a hindered pigeon under a falcon in front of a camera. That's the sort of shit that is eventually going to get all of us into a world of trouble with litigation from crybabies and bleeding hearts. Mark my words.

[Dirthawking]

And here I thought it was because of the silly looking idiotic in the beginning.

[falcon56]

Nope..... Darren doesn't have a problem with dead rabbits (or hares). I suspect that he wasn't particularly thrilled to see a fellow falconer tossing a hindered pigeon under a falcon in front of a camera. That's the sort of shit that is eventually going to get all of us into a world of trouble with litigation from crybabies and bleeding hearts. Mark my words.

9 out of 10 people watching this from their living room couch wouldn't recognize something a bit off with the pigeon. The screaming rabbit could definitely create some negativity.

[canvibe]

9 out of 10 people watching this from their living room couch wouldn't recognize something a bit off with the pigeon. The screaming rabbit could definitely create some negativity.

I agree regarding the pigeon, the screaming rabbit is just reality, it is what it is.

[UTFalconer]

Nope..... Darren doesn't have a problem with dead rabbits (or hares). I suspect that he wasn't particularly thrilled to see a fellow falconer tossing a hindered pigeon under a falcon in front of a camera. That's the sort of shit that is eventually going to get all of us into a world of trouble with litigation from crybabies and bleeding hearts. Mark my words.

The way these shots were taken, only a fellow falconer would know the pigeon was hindered... If the camera focused more on the pigeon for a longer duration, I would certainly agree with you. In this short video, my concern would be more for the screaming rabbit than anything.

[sharptail]

The way these shots were taken, only a fellow falconer would know the pigeon was hindered...

Perhaps, until some animal rights activist gets a hold of it and explains what really happened.

Not too great a falcon that didn't put the pigeon away on the first pass.

[DLemieux]

I don't think most folks would have noticed that the pigeon was hindered but seeing it thrown for a falcon to catch is a part of falconry that the public does not need to be aware of. Especially if it's use is only going to be shown and not explained. I would imagine that most of the folks watching this show are hunters so a screaming hare wouldn't/shouldn't upset them but after seeing a pigeon thrown for a falcon some may wonder if the jack was released as well. They may even think that falconry is all about hiking around in nature and releasing game to try and replicate what would happen in the wild. I know this is a bit of a stretch but there are quite a few of what I call "Doop-dee-doos" out there (you know the type: missing quite a few brain cells or even a chromosome or two) who I wouldn't put it past them to make that kind of assumption.

Other than the pigeon the only other thing that I noticed that I kind of laughed at was the brit woman who stated that "falconry is all about taking a bird of prey and training it to take wild quarry".

[UTFalconer]

Now for the record of the truth behind the video. The camera crew was supposed to show up at 7 am., they never showed up on time, and they called in late. I had to fly my tiercel peregrine before it got to late in the day, so I had to fly without them (which I was committed to). I had a really nice flight on a duck slip not to far from the hotel. Actually, it was a really nice duck flight, my bird skyed out.. He didn't catch a duck, but it was an impressive flight none the less. Come 10:00 the camera crew finally showed up. The guys who were going take the crew out for grouse later in the day ended up bailing on me. When asking around at the weathering yard for other long-wingers to tag a long with, not one of them would do it, nor would the dirt hawkers when they heard they were going to be on film. Luckily, an apprentice and another guy who are balloon training their brid volunteered for the job. They were both trying to take their birds off the ballon the same day, and said if no one else would do it I will step up to the plate. But, please find someone else first. They ened up having to do it. In both cases, it was the first time the birds ever stooped from a decent pitch off of the balloon and certainly the first time they killed something other than bait on the balloon. Your right, it wasn't great to see represting falconry, or a bird did a lousy stoop on a pigeon, or in a split second you saw a pigeon hindered. if you look real close, you would probably see a red balloon 1800' too. Next time, I would suggest you step up to the plate and volunteer your bird if you want to see something better. As for the two guys putting them self out there to fly their longwings on film, even though you didn't want to do it consering the circumstances, thank you for stepping up to the plate when no one else would.

[UTFalconer]

Perhaps, until some animal rights activist gets a hold of it and explains what really happened.

Not too great a falcon that didn't put the pigeon away on the first pass.

Any falconry book would explain what sealing a pigeon is... all the activist would have to do is pull up any falconry book and read about it. Heck, they might even read about sewing falcons eyes shut, brail, and taking a bird down to weight what they may read as starving. Not to mention taking a baby hawk away from its mommy.

Not to great of a falcon for coming out of a 1200' stoop for the first time off the balloon. Man, get rid of that bird!!!!

[James Idi]

/shrug

I thought it was a pretty good vid.

Certainly nothing to start hand-wringing over.

[sharptail]

Any falconry book would explain what sealing a pigeon is... all the activist would have to do is pull up any falconry book and read about it. Heck, they might even read about sewing falcons eyes shut, brail, and taking a bird down to weight what they may read as starving. Not to mention taking a baby hawk away from its mommy.

Not to great of a falcon for coming out of a 1200' stoop for the first time off the balloon. Man, get rid of that bird!!!!

Youtube is and has been crowded with sub par video on falconry, we surely don't need more.

Having to dig up falconry books and acutally read them just doesn't cut it in this internet age, video is where it is at. If anyone puts more out there in public view, it needs to be top quality, to not be a detriment to our sport and this in not top shelf. I am not concerned about performing for a film crew, no matter who set it up, or who was late and perhaps you shouldn't be either.

[Dirthawking]

I can tell you that this film crew was shooting stuff almost all day in and out of the weathering yard. I was mic'ed up for almost an hour. I had to ask around to find other falconers for them to talk to. Most said a polite no thank you and went on their way.

[UTFalconer]

Jeff, And you shouldn’t be too concerned about a pigeon either… but you are. You are concerned about a pigeon coming out of guys hand, heaven forbid they better change that practice at the Sky Trials. We better stop everyone at the gate with a camera, cause if that leeks were screwed!

Mario… Thank you sooo much for taking the time with the media! It was nice to know they were occupied while we were trying to find willing falconers to fly their birds. You also did a great job explaining falconry and what it is. Thanks again for your hard work and patience at the weathering yard. It was rather very difficult finding help of the film crew wasn’t it! Thank you to those folks to helped out!

[idbirdman]

I thought it looked great Ryan. Thanks Stephen

[Lowachi]

I can tell you that this film crew was shooting stuff almost all day in and out of the weathering yard. I was mic'ed up for almost an hour. I had to ask around to find other falconers for them to talk to. Most said a polite no thank you and went on their way.

it's part of yer noviciate..... after a couple times of being 'twisted',edited,& taken out of context, I choose to avoid the recording part of it if I can, and leave it to people with better "public speaking experience." Most of them would rather talk to someone with a bird on the fist, the more exotic the better. Unless you can edit for content, which is rare, you get what they want. I know hours of tape was editted and discarded,

All in all, for the general public, it was ok. the anti's will find something if they have to play it backwards. Paul, were you really the walrus???

[sharptail]

They don't throw sealed pigeons at the sky trials.

[UTFalconer]

They don't throw sealed pigeons at the sky trials.

Sure they do, However, it is usually the Wyoming guys trying to get their birds back cause they didn’t train them to the lure.

[sharptail]

Sure they do, However, it is usually the Wyoming guys trying to get their birds back cause they didn’t train them to the lure.

Oh, have they changed the rules away from no live lures? Unfortunately, the sky trials has become more of a circus spectical than than a legitimate trials. I remember bird fanciers(can't really call them falconers) causing eagles to bate for exibition, while a contenders falcon almost left the county. Costume characters parading redtails. Men dressed in bear hides. Women in indian head dress and buckskin, who didn't seem to realize that this a longwing event. Contestant's falcons catching pigeons within a few feet of the reach of a pet owl on the lawn. Pigeon released from a vehical as a contestant falcon was mounting. The Utah Sky Trials should not be used as a standard for what should happen.

[aerorichy]

Could anyone tell me what make the bag was the lad was wearing with orange on it please?

Great video thankyou for posting

[Dirthawking]

Darren, what else made you cringe?

[goshawkr]

Perhaps, until some animal rights activist gets a hold of it and explains what really happened.

Not too great a falcon that didn't put the pigeon away on the first pass.

Jeff,

With all due respect your a more than little delusional. I hope you dont take such offense to that statement that you stopped reading.

There is one, perhaps two, states that have a more active Animal Rights population than Washington (CA, possibly NY), especially if counted on a per capita basis. I used to watch these guys very close, but had to back off some because my pespective was getting shot to hell.

Anyway, having watched these guys operate, including watching their communications from the inside, I can absolutely assure you that the facts dont matter on whit. At least, that is, if your version of how to interpert the facts is different from theirs. They will peel apart footage like that, make up their own facts to describe it, and sell it as gospel truth to the public with a lot of sad music.

I think the video was fine. If your worried about ammo for an animal rights campaign, there is really no protection from that at all (not even completely avoiding videos alltogether). They will get the footage, even if they need to play the role of potential apprentice tagging along for a day in the field with hidden camera's and mic's and rolling tape.

Even with mediocre or bad videos out there, it helps to counter the AR message before it even comes by sparking the interest amoung people who think its cool that may do a little research and come away thinking falconry is neato.

[calebstroh]

Could anyone tell me what make the bag was the lad was wearing with orange on it please?

Great video thank you for posting

That is a game bag made by Wing Works Vest Co.

You can find more information about them by visiting their website at:

http://wingworks.biz/

I've found them to be a very high quality hunting bag, but they are made more for upland bird gun hunters than falconry. However, rather than have two game bags I just use the Wing Works for all my hunting/falconry. This way I don’t leave my license in one or the other, etc.

It fits well and has many compartments and features that many “falconry” vests do not.

It has its pluses/minuses for falconry only though. First and foremost, I wish more of the larger pocket areas had zippers.

They also come in tan ONLY, but I opted for the orange for safety purposes. They can be customized on their website to each individual’s needs.

Caleb

[DLemieux]

It was mainly that. The other thing wasn't so much a cringe as just a funny statement that I mentioned at the end of my second post. Post #9.

Just to be clear. The use of a pigeon isn't so bad as long as it is in the right context. This is a show about hunting with birds of prey so the use of a pigeon in this manner isn't going to be explained on camera the way it should. If a film crew shows up at a sky trials an explanation of the use of pigeons would need to be used to convey the story properly.

Ryan, I'm not sure if you were the official press liaison or not but either way good job for stepping up to the plate. I imagine it is a responsibility that not many would like to take on. Anyone that steps in front of a camera to speak about falconry (whether they like it or not) is speaking for falconers everywhere and if it's at a NAFA meet then they are speaking for all NAFA members. The best interests of the organization must be kept in mind.

In the grand scheme of things it really isn't that big of a deal. It's just one of many things that we should all keep in mind if ever in the public eye.

BTW Mario, you were great in front of the camera. Very well spoken.

[sharptail]

Jeff,

With all due respect your a more than little delusional. I hope you dont take such offense to that statement that you stopped reading.

There is one, perhaps two, states that have a more active Animal Rights population than Washington (CA, possibly NY), especially if counted on a per capita basis. I used to watch these guys very close, but had to back off some because my pespective was getting shot to hell.

Anyway, having watched these guys operate, including watching their communications from the inside, I can absolutely assure you that the facts dont matter on whit. At least, that is, if your version of how to interpert the facts is different from theirs. They will peel apart footage like that, make up their own facts to describe it, and sell it as gospel truth to the public with a lot of sad music.
I think the video was fine. If your worried about ammo for an animal rights campaign, there is really no protection from that at all (not even completely avoiding videos alltogether). They will get the footage, even if they need to play the role of potential apprentice tagging along for a day in the field with hidden camera's and mic's and rolling tape.

Even with mediocre or bad videos out there, it helps to counter the AR message before it even comes by sparking the interest amoung people who think its cool that may do a little research and come away thinking falconry is neato.

Hi Geoff,
I am sure that you are right... but then again I am delusional. I am quite sure they don't need our help in making there own video from our footage, but why help them out? Isn't Youtube available world wide and the viewing of bad video available to everyone that wants to take a shot, from anywhere?

I agree that proactive is great, as long as the video is up to snuff.

[Shock]

If something is going to be taken out of context, then it will be no matter how much effort is made and if people are interested in the sport, they are eventually going to know when nature takes it's course and the word "predator-prey" relationship hits home.

mostly, i don't see a problem with the video. most of the demographics that are going to see it are either falconers or hunters themselves and denying them a video because some idiot might hit "dislike" on youtube doesn't really make sense to me.

[aerorichy]

That is a game bag made by Wing Works Vest Co.

You can find more information about them by visiting their website at:

http://wingworks.biz/

I've found them to be a very high quality hunting bag, but they are made more for upland bird gun hunters than falconry. However, rather than have two game bags I just use the Wing Works for all my hunting/falconry. This way I don’t leave my license in one or the other, etc.

It fits well and has many compartments and features that many “falconry” vests do not.

It has its pluses/minuses for falconry only though. First and foremost, I wish more of the larger pocket areas had zippers.

They also come in tan ONLY, but I opted for the orange for safety purposes. They can be customized on their website to each individual’s needs.

Caleb

Thankyou for your Caleb it looked a nice bit of kit and shall visit the site!

Regards
Richy

[goshawkr]

I am quite sure they don't need our help in making there own video from our footage, but why help them out?

You have a point there. However, I prefer to not cave to them. Just a personal judgement call there.

[sharptail]

You have a point there. However, I prefer to not cave to them. Just a personal judgement call there.

Cave? I can be 'thick' but what do you mean? Cave how?

[goshawkr]

Cave? I can be 'thick' but what do you mean? Cave how?

Sorry, I rushed that post off before reviewing it and didnt get the wording clear. You'd never know I am a professional writer by my posts, would you?

I meant give in to the preassure of the AR goons by letting them shape our decisions. Your prefered method of withhold as much information as possible from them is a valid approach. My personal preference is to just bloody their nose when the time comes.

[sharptail]

Sorry, I rushed that post off before reviewing it and didnt get the wording clear. You'd never know I am a professional writer by my posts, would you?

I meant give in to the preassure of the AR goons by letting them shape our decisions. Your prefered method of withhold as much information as possible from them is a valid approach. My personal preference is to just bloody their nose when the time comes.

That is not quite my perfered method...Clean video limits there options. They have to dig deep and work hard for shots of sealed bird flights if we don't post it. There is no way to defend against seeing sealed bird flights, to the sympathetic human heart...the bagged bird doesn't have a chance, hence the 'underdog syndrome'. Half of our society lives by 'feelings' and not by reason. No falconer should try to explain the use of sealed bags to those that mainly 'feel' as a way of life, we will loose.

Show falconry in it's best and trueist form and take all comers 'HEAD ON'! Don't make me EVEN TRY to defend the use of sealed bags if you want to see falconry survive into the future!

[UTFalconer]

First of all, the video was a good video. You are making it out to be worse than it really is, and only you as a falconer would catch on it’s a sealed pigeon. It’s time to get over it. What is killing falconry; all this fighting, bickering and arrogance. So you bring up a good point, maybe we all should be careful next time with what is aired on TV or YouTube. But to belittle and attack a fellow falconer over it? A young falconer and an apprentice none the less? All you are doing is causing these young kid to hate falconers, hate NAFA, and all of the association within. What happened to tolerance and showing the way with leadership? Is this a lost art (rhetorical). Are we that arrogant to think unless someone does it the way we do it, they shouldn’t even try or try to make difference? I’m here to tell you, its attitudes like this that is killing falconry, fighting within. We fight over speculation or the possibilities that never come to pass, and we never reflect back on the damage our words have done. And trust me, they have done some damage! The falconry community can only be group strong and we are not that big to begin with. What this arrogance and belittling does is ostracize individuals with hate and anger, and we need these young guys coming into the sport. So you have an opinion, is it really worth belittling and pushing one more person out or to the edge? Falconry is a small group in comparison, and we need every person to stand up for you and its rights. We don’t need this BS, and I am ashamed right now to be associated with the 2% who insist on being dinks on this forum by pushing their reprimands. Just because my falconry is one style, my mews have certain birds in them, I run this type of dog doesn’t make me better than you, or that you should fly birds the same way I do. So what if a guy may have a “legal” make shift mews, flies a bird downtown with a creance made of fishing line. I may not do it that way, but if that is what he wishes to do, Hey it’s his right. So what, he has a different idea. And if your so worried about a sealed pigeon on film, then don’t ever fly a sealed pigeon, period! You never know who is watching, filming, or pretending to be a falconer for the anti’s. You’re not going to BS me by saying you have never hindered a pigeon when flying a longwing here in the States, cause I know better. You are just as guilty. You’re not going to BS and me and say your birds have always had the perfect flight, the perfect stoop and the perfect strike. We have all done things that can hinder falconry at one point or another, but so what, we learn from them. We learn from them as long as we have a teacher. I ask myself often, why can’t we be more tolerant of other falconers. Since when did we start airing others laundry for the public to criticize… do we really need to start airing laundry over a good video that only a few falconers would even notice. Is this really what falconry has come to?

[DLemieux]

Ryan, I just skimmed over the entire thread again and maybe I missed it but I couldn't find any statement where someone was "belittling and attacking" a fellow falconer. The only possible instance (that was done in jest I believe) was from you making a dig at Wyoming falconers for not training their falcons to the lure and needing baggies to retrieve them. I think what some here are trying to say is to be careful when you know you are being filmed.

I am also pretty sure nobody here claimed to never have used a sealed pigeon. Yes, it's true that you never know who is watching or possibly filming but the difference is when you definitely do know you are being filmed that maybe the use of a baggie might not be the best idea.

[UTFalconer]

Ryan, I just skimmed over the entire thread again and maybe I missed it but I couldn't find any statement where someone was "belittling and attacking" a fellow falconer. The only possible instance (that was done in jest I believe) was from you making a dig at Wyoming falconers for not training their falcons to the lure and needing baggies to retrieve them. I think what some here are trying to say is to be careful when you know you are being filmed.

I am also pretty sure nobody here claimed to never have used a sealed pigeon. Yes, it's true that you never know who is watching or possibly filming but the difference is when you definitely do know you are being filmed that maybe the use of a baggie might not be the best idea.

That's because some of the post were deleted... However, read about the sky Trials again, that's still there. Your right, I shouldn't have brought up the lure, but it was in good humor. My apologies.