Hood leather

[Prairie]

Hi to all. I am interested in purchasing leather to produce some hoods. My dilema is not knowing what size to purchase. I know it depends on what size hood being made. Obviously you wouldn't use leather suitable for an eagle hood in the making of a kestrel hood. At any rate, I am flying a female western Cooper's and want to make some hoods in that size range. I've heard of leather in the 3 -4 oz. or 4 -5 oz. range, etc. It's hard to know exactly what weight (size) of leather to use. I want it to be thick enough to be able to "blind" stitch but not too heavy for the bird. If anyone knows what thickness of leather (or what weight of leather) to use for hoods (both
Anglo-Indian and Dutch) I'd really appreciate knowing. In other words, what thickness does the weight of the leather translate to? Thanks in advance.

Larry Clark

[Lowachi]

leather is measured in ounces, 1 ounce = 1/64 inch or .40mm thick. hoods, as I understand it, are typically 2-3 or 3-4 oz., depending on hood size & quality/strength of leather. With all the hooders here, they can tell you the weight ta use, but that's how to measure it. there's a chart on Tandy's website & has a visual thickness comparison. quality 2-3 can be rough to find, good luck with your endevours. I'll be joining you soon enough.

[Keith Denman]

I use 2 to3 for RT and Ferggis if using kip or tooling calf, for a Coops I would probally get Kangaroo if you can afford it and get .6mm to .8mm . If you get kip or calf go with 1.5 oz.

[STait]

I disagree with Keiths figures. 1.5 ounce leather is too thin for any hood (unless good roo). Also, IMO .6mm roo is too thin as well. If you want a hood to last use 3 ounce calf or more and 1mm kangaroo or more. .8mm-.9mm in roo works fine for merlin hoods up to coopers, but it needs to be quality leather to hold the hidden stitch.

Sorry Keith, I just wouldn't use the thicknesses you are recommending.

Good luck,

[Keith Denman]

No problem Steve your right on the weights there. I do use 8 to 9 mm on the roo for small hoods. I like 1.2 -1.4mm roo for large hoods. I do use 2.5 to 3 on calf for large hoods and smaller weight for small hoods.

[California Native]

Hello Larry,

You can find vegetable tanned leathers for Anglo Indian hoods in thinner weights and make an Anglo Indian hood with a different stitch. There are several stitches you can use where you just make your stitch hole straight down through the leather. That allows you to use thinner leathers and not hide the stitch. I have found vegetable tanned goat and English kip and a nicely finished goat leather that will work for a Cooper's hawk hood. It will keep the weight of the hood down. 2-3 ounce range.
Dan

[STait]

Haven't tried goat for hoods, but rules definitely change for stitches not hidden. I love goatskin gloves.

[California Native]

Steve,
Three or more years back, I discussed with another hood maker, just what leather that traditional Indian and Arab hoods might have been made from. Goat was suggested as one of the leathers. I visited a leather warehouse while traveling and picked out a nice hide that was already dyed. Not sure what it was and then saw a tag on the rack the hides had been pulled down from. It was goat. They had hides that were as light as 1.5 ounce to 2-3 ounces. I suspect this leather might have been used for purses or jackets. The suede side was as nice as I have seen in years. The finished side just as nice and the cost quite low compared to English Kip. I wanted to try it for hoods to make the Anglo Indian hood or Arab in what might have been a traditional leather. This particular hide and each in the pile of hides were limp compared to vegetable tanned English kip. I had planned to laminate a thin layer of skiver and did. But I found like most leathers that the goat stiffened with water sprayed on it. Last year, I stopped at the same leather warehouse and bought more goat. This time it was in a natural color of vegetable tanned leather. I have not yet used it.

Dan

[STait]

Dan, let me know how you like it.

[mosman]

Since the leather issue came up let me ask you Professional hood makers about HOW much of a difference does "good" leather make as compared to leather that I can get from Tandy.I am not putting Tandy down at all, I have used just their 4-5 ounce sides, have not bought real good leather for hoods since most of mine end up in the trash because I dont like the finished product.

So does the English Kip leather they sell for around 150.00 a side make a huge difference in how easy it is to stitch up and how well it holds together? And also, any advice on needle size and types of string. I use a tough nylon string now but it doesnt seem to hold the stitches well, even with wax on it.

[GONEHAWKN]

My local, and only Tandy, rarely has hides clean enough for me to consider buying. The flesh side is very nappy, and the hair side seems to be littered with imperfections. I have been there enough looking at their stuff to know my odds of getting a good one is slim. Now, i do know that Ken H. gets a LOT if not all of his skin from a local Tandy and like what he gets. The only thing i have gotten from Tandy thats made me happy was a petite calf hide. That was pretty clean, but it was pricey for its size. I only make about 25-35 hoods a year, so a single skin from WSP goes a long way for me. It's by far the nicest skin i have worked with and my customers have taken notice too.

Now, for needles and thread. All i am using is some Coats and Clark upholstery thread from Walmart. Paul D. turned me onto this thread a few years ago and i have been using it ever since. As for needles, i get them at Walmart too. Just some small jobs that looked good to me. i think my latest batch i bought were size 7 embroidery needle. I dont wax my thread either. Not sure how many do or dont, i just dont bother. Hope this was of some help. Maybe some of the more weatherd and experienced hood makers will chime in. I just dabble in hood making.

[Keith Denman]

I brought my last hide from leather crafters and they only had one that was ok not great. The petite calf I got from Tandy was good but I look through 20 or more hides to find one good one. Getting good leather in the last several years has been rather trying. I use D size C-Lon and I do wax my thread because it strengthens it and protects it so it will hold up longer. I use size 7-9 needles as well.

[Keith Denman]

My local, and only Tandy, rarely has hides clean enough for me to consider buying. The flesh side is very nappy, and the hair side seems to be littered with imperfections. I have been there enough looking at their stuff to know my odds of getting a good one is slim. Now, i do know that Ken H. gets a LOT if not all of his skin from a local Tandy and like what he gets. The only thing i have gotten from Tandy thats made me happy was a petite calf hide. That was pretty clean, but it was pricey for its size. I only make about 25-35 hoods a year, so a single skin from WSP goes a long way for me. It's by far the nicest skin i have worked with and my customers have taken notice too.

Now, for needles and thread. All i am using is some Coats and Clark upholstery thread from Walmart. Paul D. turned me onto this thread a few years ago and i have been using it ever since. As for needles, i get them at Walmart too. Just some small jobs that looked good to me. i think my latest batch i bought were size 7 embroidery needle. I dont wax my thread either. Not sure how many do or dont, i just dont bother. Hope this was of some help. Maybe some of the more weatherd and experienced hood makers will chime in. I just dabble in hood making.

Hi Bill you said you get your leather from WSP, what and where is that at if you do not mind me asking? I live in the country and travel almost 3 hours to get to a shop I can buy leather at.

[Joan Marie]

As a side note from a seamstress if you run your thread through a beeswax thread conditioner (in the sewing notion section) before sewing you will avoid those troublesome knots. Also, when you need to make that first run with your threaded needle through cloth or most anything else, run the end of the needle through your scalp. Mama said.

Happy hooding!

[Lowachi]

Hi Bill you said you get your leather from WSP, what and where is that at if you do not mind me asking? I live in the country and travel almost 3 hours to get to a shop I can buy leather at.

Western Sporting Publications

[Keith Denman]

Western Sporting Publications

I should of thought of that. Thanks, what type of leather are you getting from there? Roo or Kip?

[STait]

I haven't found anything I would use for hoods at Tandy for 30+ years. Their petite calf is alright but I would rather buy the best I can get. I use size D beading thread and I wax a lot to keep the thread taught. I also use size 7 needles and I use curved needle nose pliers to sew with. I want my stitching to be consistent and the inferior leather doesn't work as well as the good stuff. Also, I like my stitches to be fairly close to the edge (2mm or less) and my needle and thread won't pull through the best calf.

[Keith Denman]

I haven't found anything I would use for hoods at Tandy for 30+ years. Their petite calf is alright but I would rather buy the best I can get. I use size D beading thread and I wax a lot to keep the thread taught. I also use size 7 needles and I use curved needle nose pliers to sew with. I want my stitching to be consistent and the inferior leather doesn't work as well as the good stuff. Also, I like my stitches to be fairly close to the edge (2mm or less) and my needle and thread won't pull through the best calf.

Yea finding nice dense leather is getting difficult and if you have to order it online and do not get to rummage through and pick out the best then your stuck with what you get.

[mosman]

But is there a big difference in the ease of sewing and working with the real good leather? Like Steve mentioned that his good leather doesnt rip thru when he is doing the stitch, what are some of the other benefits you guys find from the good leather. As far as finding leather for me, I am almost 200 miles from the closest Tandy or any leather type store, so I have to buy my leather sight un-seen.

So seeing a hide from Tandy for a reasonable price and seeing a English Kip side for 150.00 or more makes me wonder about how much better it works. I know the better hide will dye cleaner and tool better but my big question was is it EASIER to work with, cutting and sewing mostly.

[BigJerHoods]

Terry,

A good hide is much easier to work with. Having a stitch rip through or having a punching tool rip through as you are punching stitch holes all take time and quality away from the finished product. Sometimes even the good hide providers will send out a hide that is hard to work with. I have had some that are so hard it is like punching through a block of wood to make a stitch hole. Some are so soft that and full that they stretch inappropriately and bunch along the seamline making more work for you during blocking. Some of the smaller roo hides I have tried in the last couple of years stitch beautifully but won't burnish worth a lick. That leaves the hood soft and unusable.

Ultimately it is about what your goals are in hoodmaking. If you are just making some for yourself and for fun then you might be able to get away with cheaper costing/quality hides. If you aspire to commercial goals with hoods then you need to consistently use higher quality leather so that you can truly see your improvements, areas that need continued effort, and comparable progress towards your end goal. You might actually be better than you think, but the lower quality leather works against you so much that you don't realize it til you get a good hide. Hope that helps a little.

[STait]

What Big Jer said!

[Keith Denman]

Amen BigJer, no matter what you do you can only progress to the quality of the tools you use. I have had some real good hides, the one I have now is not real good but it was the best they had. The problem comes with getting top quality on a consistant basis.

[mosman]

Terry,

A good hide is much easier to work with. Having a stitch rip through or having a punching tool rip through as you are punching stitch holes all take time and quality away from the finished product. Sometimes even the good hide providers will send out a hide that is hard to work with. I have had some that are so hard it is like punching through a block of wood to make a stitch hole. Some are so soft that and full that they stretch inappropriately and bunch along the seamline making more work for you during blocking. Some of the smaller roo hides I have tried in the last couple of years stitch beautifully but won't burnish worth a lick. That leaves the hood soft and unusable.

Ultimately it is about what your goals are in hoodmaking. If you are just making some for yourself and for fun then you might be able to get away with cheaper costing/quality hides. If you aspire to commercial goals with hoods then you need to consistently use higher quality leather so that you can truly see your improvements, areas that need continued effort, and comparable progress towards your end goal. You might actually be better than you think, but the lower quality leather works against you so much that you don't realize it til you get a good hide. Hope that helps a little.

Jeremy,,

That's the answer I was looking for , thank you. You guys that are making hoods here amaze me. I wish I had talent like you guys and gals. I try my best with what I got, but it makes it hard, as you all know, that you get better the more you do this.

I dont mind spending the extra money to get the better leather if it makes a big difference in the end product. I just cant afford to spend the money just to throw them away because they dont turn out like I want.

I would love to get good enough to sale hoods like you guys because I do enjoy working with leather, and being disabled I have plenty of time. But I can not bring myself to be a "Ebay" seller just to make some money.

So thanks for all your comments......
Terry

[GONEHAWKN]

Terry the best way to get good at it is to keep making them. The best way to keep making them(for something to try them on) is to use you and your buddies as guinea pigs. What i did was, as i got to a point where i felt that what i was making was not going to be viewed as a torture device on the bird, i made the proposal to my buddies that for every hood block they bought me, i would make them 2 hoods. This not only got me started on getting my hood blocks together, but it also got me the much needed hands-on that i also needed(and still need). Eventually i got to the point where i felt that what i was producing was better then the deal i was giving them and i stopped that offer. But back to the leather issue for a minute. I do believe that better quality supplies and tools will help you to produce a better hood with better fit and finish. Good leather, like Jer said, burnishes well, but also tools better, takes a beak opening much nicer, and accepts dye more evenly. With the number of hoods i make a year(25-35), i feel that i only want to make the best i can with the best i can buy. Just keep at it. You'll mess up a lot of leather and give away a lot of hoods. But i know no other way to get half way decent at it than to just keep making them.

[Bryant Tarr]

Like my old Latin teacher used to say...
"Repetition is the mother of Wisdom"

it also sometimes causes along the way.

[GONEHAWKN]

it also sometimes causes along the way.

LOTS of it at times......welcome back Bryant....

[Bryant Tarr]

LOTS of it at times......welcome back Bryant....

Thanks Bill!