Sampo vs Barrel Swivel

[davidfrank]

Sampo vs Barrel Swivel

While working on a book I investigated the internal nature of both the Sampo and Barrel swivel. It is easy to draw some conclusions after seeing how these swivels are made.

Also, a friend from Montana was placing what could be called "Grouse Deflectors" on fences in areas where Sage and Sharp-tail Grouse commonly fly over barb-wire fences placed on high areas in a local flyway. The number of dead grouse convinced him that some sort of spinning deflector was needed to condition the grouse to choose a different course thereby saving their lives. Just by chance he happened to use both Sampo and Barrel swivels on the small spinning deflectors.

What he found was very interesting. The swivels spun around powered by the wind at a good speed and were very effective in turning the grouse from that pathway. However, the barrel swivels came apart in short order. The swivels were put under extraordinary load and use. The Sampo held up to the abuse but the brass rivet in the internal portion of the barrel swivel actually reformed (or deformed) during use resulting in swivel failure. The Barrel swivel was a 570# model and the Sampo swivel was a 300# model.

Although this is extraordinary use and the hawk on the lawn will only place an equal wear over an extremely very long time, it is nonetheless worth mentioning.

I have placed a small * on the images in the spot that will first show wear in a swivel. If that area becomes loose and a small gap appears then the swivel may needs replacing.

I don't normally make postings on the Forum but I thought this was very interesting. My time in responding will be limited but I would like to read the discussion as the Barrel Swivel has made a place for itself since the advent and common use of the braided tethering system.

[FredFogg]

Very interesting David! Thanks for the information. My thought is before a barrel swivel would wear out on a leash for a raptor, the leash itself would wear out. But your point about it does wear out eventually should be taken and the swivel should be checked over before using it on a new leash.

[Alan]

David,

Why is the Sampo swivel installed upside down on the grouse deflector? I was taught to always have the spinning shaft DOWN. This allows any dirt/dust/water to fall out during use. Having it up allows dirt/water/ice to remain in the swivel & wear on the ball bearings and/or freeze up the swivel.

I have seen many falconers use their Sampos upside down & never understood why.

I've also noted that the place to watch for wear on Sampos is where the rings go thru the posts. Hard to explain but the holes eventually get bigger and the posts get thinner until they eventually crack.

Alan

[weathervaneman]

I've got a Sampo swivel that craped out in the course of one season. I fix bicycles and I have seen many ball bearings that have broke in half.
I can't believe which end is up would matter. I understand these swivels are made for deep salt water fishing.
Morris

[Dirthawking]

it does not matter when it comes to water. It does however when it comes stuff like bird poo and dirt.

[Ken S.]

Thanks for sharing that David! Very interesting.

[weathervaneman]

I just ran right out and woke my bird up to check the swivel. It's on up right so it ought to last forever. My first one must have been up side down.
Morris

[Lowachi]

I just ran right out and woke my bird up to check the swivel. It's on up right so it ought to last forever. My first one must have been up side down.
Morris

now that's funny!!

[bobpayne]

Thanks for sharing that David! Very interesting.

Started using the barrel swivels last season, picking up some new sampos from you to use in the future, thanks for explaining how they are made.

[awahl]

Great info. Thanks everyone. I was under the impression that the SPRO swivels were stainless steel. I am guessing that the brass is the weak link in the barrel swivel. Looking at the following page, it says that the swivels are stainless. That being said, I do know of at least one that popped apart on a falconry bird. I use them, and do inspect the seam regularly. I toss them when there is enough play in the seam that they rock a little from side to side. Actually, I just use them for something else at that point.
http://www.cabelas.com/swivels-snaps...:referralID=NA

[rkumetz]

I've got a Sampo swivel that craped out in the course of one season. I fix bicycles and I have seen many ball bearings that have broke in half.
I can't believe which end is up would matter. I understand these swivels are made for deep salt water fishing.
Morris

Because if you have the open rotating end down debris falls out rather
than staying in the bearings as it would if it is used with the open side
facing up. Get some sand or other abrasive stuff in there and they will
just grind themselves to death or jam up and stop rotating. The latter is
probably going to happen first when the clog with mutes.

[davidfrank]

Hi Alan,

Yes, he put the Sampo upside down on the grouse deflector. You are correct that there is an up and down. The body of the Sampo will start to get loose just about the time the top ring is wearing through the brass housing. Nothing lasts forever.

David Frank

[bluejack]

Great thread David,
Thanks for posting ringing this to our attention.

[Chris L.]

Great thread David. Thank you for the information.

[Lowachi]

thanks David. calling in the am ta order stuff

[oldguy]

Interesting information David.

There's something about barrel swivels that I don't care for. Just me.
If I had a need for less costly swivels, I would use Sampo, and lets applaud the guy who cares enough to try this. A great example of someone who sees a problem and takes measures to help a species.

[davidfrank]

Yes, I've seen this advert at Cabella's for stainless steel barrel swivels. However, when the swivel is made there is a male part (rivet shaped piece) and a female part. The female part is cast much wider so it can go over the male part and then it is stamped with a machine down over the male rivet part right the way around the circumference so the sides are then lined up parallel. Stainless steel is far too hard to do this with. If they are making them now out of stainless steel it probably has some other metals in it so it can be smushed (not a proper word but better than smashed) down over the male part forming the final cylindrical barrel swivel. Saying that, it would probably be much stronger than the nickel plated brass swivel. However, I have not seen one yet. Maybe I will order one from Cabella's and grind on it to see if this is indeed a new version.

David Frank
Western Sporting

[awahl]

Thanks David. I appreciate the information, and the descriptions above. There are many grades of stainless out there as well. We recently bought silverware that was "stainless" and rusted in less than two weeks. By the way, I have always had terrific service from Western Sporting and have always appreciated it.

[oscarpack@yahoo.com]

I have some of the stainless barrel swivels, took one to the grinder, it is brass! I am disappointed, but enlightened also.
Thanks
Oscar

[oldguy]

Too many people believe the word "stainless" implies that it will not rust or corrode.
The word is stainLESS. I dropped a Sampo swivel in the pea gravel in my mews. Has yet gotten caught in my stall rake I clean up with. I'll be curious to see what it looks like if I ever find it.

[davidfrank]

I did finally order some of the swivels from Cabella's by clicking on the link supplied by "awal" above. I ground on them and they are indeed brass. To the guy who markets, stainless obviously means will not rust and I guess brass does not actually rust.

David
Western Sporting

[COMEAUX]

Too many people believe the word "stainless" implies that it will not rust or corrode.
The word is stainLESS. I dropped a Sampo swivel in the pea gravel in my mews. Has yet gotten caught in my stall rake I clean up with. I'll be curious to see what it looks like if I ever find it.

It won't rust if it is a good grade stainless,but sampo's are not a good grade.

[Dirthawking]

I did finally order some of the swivels from Cabella's by clicking on the link supplied by "awal" above. I ground on them and they are indeed brass. To the guy who markets, stainless obviously means will not rust and I guess brass does not actually rust.

David
Western Sporting

David, did you by any chance contact the manufacter of the swivels with you findings and ask why the metal is mis represented?

[rkumetz]

David, did you by any chance contact the manufacter of the swivels with you findings and ask why the metal is mis represented?

The misrepresentation (if any) was probably Cabelas and not the mfr.
That being said, if it said "stainless" and not "stainless steel" then they probably did not misrepresent the product as much as not accurately describe it. That could have been deliberate but I kind of doubt it.
The real test is whether or not they would give you a refund if you told them that it was not stainless steel and that their catalog is misleading.

[Dirthawking]

The misrepresentation (if any) was probably Cabelas and not the mfr.
That being said, if it said "stainless" and not "stainless steel" then they probably did not misrepresent the product as much as not accurately describe it. That could have been deliberate but I kind of doubt it.
The real test is whether or not they would give you a refund if you told them that it was not stainless steel and that their catalog is misleading.

agreed! From the Cabelas web site on the item description:

SPRO's Heavy Swivels offer a truly compact size without sacrificing strength. They deliver incomparable reliability when after even the largest catfish, tuna or sharks. They are engineered with the finest high-grade stainless steel and premium components.
Color: Black


I wonder what part of it they "think" is stainless steel?

[Dirthawking]

Also, I can not find any information on the spro.com website on what these are made out of. Infact, no description at all other than heavy duty swivel and size/weight limit.

[rkumetz]

I looked briefly on the mfr's web page and did not see anything about
stainless steel: http://www.spro.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=30

[borderhawk]

This is a wake up call for me because, for some reason, I'd been thinking that barrel swivels had ball bearings in them. I've always been in the habit of dripping a bit of 3-in-1 oil in my swivels at least once a year, and I'm betting doing that on a more regular basis would help the barrel swivels tremendously. Especially with a hard bating bird. One thing to remember is that being made for underwater use, these swivels are designed to get their lubrication from the water they're submerged in, like an aquarium pump that will burn out if ran dry.
On stainless steel, it's basically an "alloy".. which means "recipe" in metallurgy speak. With true stainless even the strongest magnets will not hold to it because it actually has no iron in it... which makes it not a 'steel' at all, really. So, if you carry a strong magnet in your pocket, you can check the quality of things labeled as stainless. It's become very popular to plate brass (or regular steels) with stainless because it's shiny/pretty (sells better), is much harder than brass, and doesn't oxidize. But, like David said, it's not soft at all, so it's not squishable/bendable, and much harder to cut. That's also why it's become so popular for knives as not only does it not have any iron in it to rust, but the harder properties of it help it hold an edge better.

[Dirthawking]

http://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.a...ode=SHSB%2DALL

Opps, Ron I see we were both doing the same thing at the same time.

[MarkT]

I wonder what part of it they "think" is stainless steel?

I'm guessing they are calling them stainless because of the rings.

[Dirthawking]

I'm guessing they are calling them stainless because of the rings.

What rings? We are talking about the barrel swivels.

[rkumetz]

What rings? We are talking about the barrel swivels.

Things not to say when your wife asks you what happened to your ring.......

[Dirthawking]

Things not to say when your wife asks you what happened to your ring.......

[Crusinberry]

agreed! From the Cabelas web site on the item description:
They are engineered with the finest high-grade stainless steel and premium components.
Color: Black
I wonder what part of it they "think" is stainless steel?

Technically, it says made WITH the "finest high grade stainless steel", so if their manufacturing stamps and such are made of stainless steel, then they are correct. The parts themselves are only described as being made of "premium components".

In my old business our products were often labelled and marketed in ways that I felt were VERY misleading... to the point of fraud, but we had big-time lawyers to take care of that.

[OATS]

This is a wake up call for me because, for some reason, I'd been thinking that barrel swivels had ball bearings in them. I've always been in the habit of dripping a bit of 3-in-1 oil in my swivels at least once a year, and I'm betting doing that on a more regular basis would help the barrel swivels tremendously. Especially with a hard bating bird. One thing to remember is that being made for underwater use, these swivels are designed to get their lubrication from the water they're submerged in, like an aquarium pump that will burn out if ran dry.
On stainless steel, it's basically an "alloy".. which means "recipe" in metallurgy speak. With true stainless even the strongest magnets will not hold to it because it actually has no iron in it... which makes it not a 'steel' at all, really. So, if you carry a strong magnet in your pocket, you can check the quality of things labeled as stainless. It's become very popular to plate brass (or regular steels) with stainless because it's shiny/pretty (sells better), is much harder than brass, and doesn't oxidize. But, like David said, it's not soft at all, so it's not squishable/bendable, and much harder to cut. That's also why it's become so popular for knives as not only does it not have any iron in it to rust, but the harder properties of it help it hold an edge better.

There is a bit of misinformation in this post. The difference between iron and steel is the addition of relatively small amounts of carbon to make the iron harder. Stainless steel is steel and is largely still mostly iron. Small amounts of a varying combination of generally chromium, nickel, manganese, etc., are added to steel to give it resistance to oxidation, i.e., corrosion.

There certainly are methods of wordsmithing to imply they are "manufactured" from stainless w/o actually "containing" any. I use Spro swivels in my tethering gear so I will have to dissect a couple myself to see what they are constructed of.