Sampo vs Barrel Swivel

[davidfrank]

I recently learned that the construction of the Sampo swivel was not quite as I had shown on my original post and I wanted to bring it to the attention of the members. I managed to actually speak to the owner of Sampo Inc and shared with him my posting on NAFEX and the information about the grouse deflector with the use of different swivels. He emailed me later:

"Yes, it (my original cut-away drawing) is wrong. But, it does not matter. Long story. We had a customer who wanted to use the #8 swivel for bird deflectors on high voltage power lines. They had to be set by helicopters, and last a long time. We set up a drill press with an #8 swivel, and I think 10 lbs of tension. Knowing the RPM's of the press, we let it run to 1 million turns and then gave up. It is the balls that reduce the friction, the metal does not matter that much, until you add a lot of weight."

Brian Butts, Sampo Inc.




Well, we all know we must all keep an eye on the swivels as nothing lasts forever. However, the old #8 Sampo is and will be the work horse of falconry swivels going into the future. It would just be nice if we could see inside over time to check for wear.




David Frank Western Sporting

[oobie]

Bumping this thread as I just had two different sampo swivels quit on me in the last couple of weeks and was searching swivels. I only saw one mention in this thread of oiling swivels. Does anybody else do this? Curious if it extends the life of a sampo-style swivel to oil it from time to time...

[MarkT]

Was it a sampo brand swivel or a sampo like swivel? Can you explain what you mean by the swivels quit on you? In 30 years, I haven't had a single sampo swivel fail. Maybe I just lose the to quick.

[oobie]

Was it a sampo brand swivel or a sampo like swivel? Can you explain what you mean by the swivels quit on you? In 30 years, I haven't had a single sampo swivel fail. Maybe I just lose the to quick.

I was using these guys - size 8.

http://www.basspro.com/Sampo-Ball-Be...product/15169/

Basically - they get stiff/quit turning - which obviously isn't safe for a hawk. I guess due to the nature of the the way they attach they are hanging the wrong way. My bird's jesses are the braided ones w' the bump that keeps them from picking them out. Otherwise, I'd just swap them out and use just a swivel when tethering. That may contribute to them picking up dust/mutes. Perhaps the cold exacerbated the dust/mutes that they may have picked up over the past few years. I've got more coming in the mail. They're not that steep so I guess buying a couple every 3 years isn't a big deal.

[oobie]

Here's a photo of the old vs new swivels.

Probably doesn't make a difference, but I noticed the new one (on the leash) has an extra ring between the snap and the swivel vs the old one where the snap is directly attached to the swivel.

[JRedig]

I've never had one fail josh, but I don't use those on a tethered bird either. Mostly just in te field and transport.

[Dirthawking]

Those coast locks are put together upside down. While not a problem when fishing, it is a problem with our birds. Opening should always point down to prevent dirt and mutes from fouling swivel.

Run them through some warm water and spray them down with teflon spray (not wd40) and see if that frees them up.

[oobie]

I just got 4 more in the mail. They aren't too expensive. I got ~3 years out of the last 2 I bought. I should be set for 6 more. I chucked the other two. I'd rather not chance having a bird unexpectedly get tangled.

[Hawkmom]

There are copycat swivels out there. Make sure they are genuine Sampo. I have used CoastLocks for years, but change them annually because the do wear. The point of failure I've had is with the wire clip. Metal fatigue from opening and closing had it snap off.

I've never used barrel swivels, and have never trusted them.

BUT, the newer Sampos have the wire ending on the INSIDE of the swivel where the jess/leash line can get hung up. The older ones, do not. I will find the thread on this issue and post it.

[Hawkmom]

Here is the text of the email I sent to Sampo regarding the problems I now have with the coast lock swivels catching on my paracord jesses.

I've been using Sampo swivels since 1974 for falconry applications. In recent years. On the most recent swivels I've purchased. I've noticed a small change in the clip on the Coastlock #8 swivel that has make my falconry uses more difficult. It is where the wire wrap ends at the swivel. Instead of being on the opposite side of the opening end of the swivel. It is on the side where cord or line is threaded onto the swivel.
As a falconer, I use para cord jesses. This end snags on my para cord jesses when removing or attaching the jesses. Not a good thing. I also work with some birds that have difficult personalties. The snagging on the wire end when changing equipment and hinders a smooth transfer to field equipment. I have some older Sampo swivels that do not have this issue. They work much better and are easier to operate.

A simple adjustment in your manufacturing process would eliminate this problem altogether. Just have the wire wrapped on the other side of the swivel opening, like it was with older Sampo swivels.

In the photo attached, the copper colored swivel is the newer version where the wire ends inside. It snags on the paracord jesses I use and is a problem.

The black swivel is an older swivel and you will see that the wire ends on the outside/opposite side of the swivel. Making it much easier to use.

Thank you for looking into this matter.

[Hawkmom]

Here is the text with Sampo's contact information:

Sampo Inc.
119 Remsen Road
P.O. Box 328
Barneveld, NY 13304
tel (315) 896-2606
fax (315) 896-6575

e-mail: info@sampoinc.com

I've been using Sampo swivels since 1974 for falconry applications. On the most recent swivels I've purchased. I've noticed a small change in the clip on the Coastlock #8 and other swivels (#6) that has make my falconry uses much more difficult. It is where the wire wrap ends at the swivel. Instead of being on the outside of the opening end of the swivel, it is on the inside where cord or line is threaded onto the swivel.

As a falconer, I use para cord jesses. This end snags on my para cord jesses when removing or attaching the jesses. Not a good thing. I also work with some raptorial birds that have difficult personalties. The snagging of the cord from the wire end when changing equipment and hinders a smooth transfer to field equipment. I have some older Sampo swivels that do not have this issue, because the wire ends on the OUTSIDE of the clip. They work much better and are easier to operate.

A simple adjustment in your manufacturing process would eliminate this problem altogether. Just have the wire wrapped on the other side of the swivel opening, like it was with older Sampo swivels.

In the photo attached, the copper colored swivel is the newer version where the wire ends inside. It snags on the paracord jesses I use and is a problem.

The black swivel at the top of the photo is an older version of the swivel and you will see that the wire ends on the outside/opposite side of the swivel opening. Making it much easier to use.

Thank you for looking into this matter.

Sincerely,

Karen ‘Kitty’ Carroll

Karen ‘Kitty’ Carroll

[Hawkmom]

Here is the photo. I have a slow web connection and hope it posts.

[dbleyepatches]

I used sampos my first year and had 2 fail and I couldn't get them to free up with boiling water or anything else. I recently acquired a few pineo swivels and I am never going back to sampos. 17 grams vs. 4 grams for the large pineo and no bearing to foul. They are expensive but two different people I know have 10+ year old pineos and they are showing no wear.

I do love the coast lock for field use though.

[dbleyepatches]

Those coast locks are put together upside down. While not a problem when fishing, it is a problem with our birds. Opening should always point down to prevent dirt and mutes from fouling swivel.

Run them through some warm water and spray them down with teflon spray (not wd40) and see if that frees them up.

This is good information on the Teflon spray. When it dries it is completely dry and will not attract dirt like anything with oil in it.

[borderhawk]

Bumping this thread as I just had two different sampo swivels quit on me in the last couple of weeks and was searching swivels. I only saw one mention in this thread of oiling swivels. Does anybody else do this? Curious if it extends the life of a sampo-style swivel to oil it from time to time...

I try to oil mine with 3-in-1 oil twice a year and have never had one fail on me. I think the longest I've used the same swivel has been about 4 years.

[jmseegar]

Get a Pino swivel, only thing that you will regret is losing it.

[Squirrelhawkin]

I have a Pineo swivel that I think is going on 8 years old and looks like new,no signs of wear at all. I tether my redtails,no free lofting even through the moult,so that swivel has some hours on it.

[Captain Gizmo]

I try to oil mine with 3-in-1 oil twice a year and have never had one fail on me. I think the longest I've used the same swivel has been about 4 years.

Michelle,

Avoid oil products in locks and swivels. Oil is sticky and holds dust and grit. Use a dry lubricant. Graphite, Teflon, or Silicone.
Where practical rig single ended swivels so they hang rotating side down. Grit then tends to fall past the opening between the rotating shaft and the shaft hole.

Same advice for D swivels or Pineo swivels. Keep the grit from staying in the joints by keeping the joint area dry.

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

[dboyrollz76]

Also strong neodymium magnets will stick to any form of steel.

[Captain Gizmo]

Also strong neodymium magnets will stick to any form of steel.

Stainless steels come basically in Austenitic and non-Austenitic. The Austenitic steels are non magnetic. Common example is the 18/8 stainless in dinnerware.
I tried a strong neodymium magnet on two swivels. The coast lock on the smaller was very magnetic, the ring less so and the body not at all. On the larger swivel the rings were magnetic and the body not. None of them Sampo or SPO brand.

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

[dboyrollz76]

Stainless steels come basically in Austenitic and non-Austenitic. The Austenitic steels are non magnetic. Common example is the 18/8 stainless in dinnerware.
I tried a strong neodymium magnet on two swivels. The coast lock on the smaller was very magnetic, the ring less so and the body not at all. On the larger swivel the rings were magnetic and the body not. None of them Sampo or SPO brand.

Regards,
Thomas of the Desert

I would say you need a stronger magnet. Yes to a point it’s non magnetic at first glance but I assure you that with a strong neodymium magnet you can pick any ferrous metal up. Not a little one, one of the 100-200 lbs force magnets wich you can only get from electromagnets or the large neodymium magnets, like we use in magnet fishing. If there is any iron in it, it sticks. How much is relevant to the quality of your stainless. The only thing it won’t pick up is nonferrous metals. A small neodymium magnet say out of hard drives. They are strong for their size but it’s not enough. The amount of carbon and magnesium in the alloy combinewith about 15% nickel 7% iron. Greater mass of non magnetic properties of the alloy make it seemingly impossible to stick to the metal. But if you increase the magnetic pull to over come the mass of the non steal properties. Undoubtedly it will stick. No questions asked. That’s one of the easiest ways to test the quality of the stainless. If a magnet that has 50lb strength sticks your stainless is junk. If it takes a 100lb strength your getting close to quality stainless. 200lb force is premium.
Unless you have spectrometer.

[qdgban]

pineo site says the figure 8 swivel is no longer available
is that the case or just sold out for now ?

[Saluqi]

pineo site says the figure 8 swivel is no longer available
is that the case or just sold out for now ?

Jake Messinger still makes figure 8's.

https://www.falconrytraditions.com/messingerswivels

[wyodjm]

Jake Messinger still makes figure 8's.

https://www.falconrytraditions.com/messingerswivels

I have a couple to those. I really them. I prefer the weight of the stainless. I found the Titanium to be too light. The stainless seem to keep equipment free of tangles. The jesses and extender hang off the block better.

Best,

[goshawkr]

I would say you need a stronger magnet. Yes to a point it’s non magnetic at first glance but I assure you that with a strong neodymium magnet you can pick any ferrous metal up. Not a little one, one of the 100-200 lbs force magnets wich you can only get from electromagnets or the large neodymium magnets, like we use in magnet fishing. If there is any iron in it, it sticks. How much is relevant to the quality of your stainless. The only thing it won’t pick up is nonferrous metals. A small neodymium magnet say out of hard drives. They are strong for their size but it’s not enough. The amount of carbon and magnesium in the alloy combinewith about 15% nickel 7% iron. Greater mass of non magnetic properties of the alloy make it seemingly impossible to stick to the metal. But if you increase the magnetic pull to over come the mass of the non steal properties. Undoubtedly it will stick. No questions asked. That’s one of the easiest ways to test the quality of the stainless. If a magnet that has 50lb strength sticks your stainless is junk. If it takes a 100lb strength your getting close to quality stainless. 200lb force is premium.
Unless you have spectrometer.

Ummm....

There are many alloys of stainless steel, with varying amounts of corrosion resistance. None of them are "junk". There are trade offs in anything. The additive in the alloy that makes SS corrosion resistant also disrupts the magnetic properties of the iron in the steel. So the more the steel responds to a magnet the less it will hold up against rusting. If you need your stuff to resist the highly corrosive environment of salt water, a magnet wont react to it. And yes, there is a point where you can effectively say it is no longer magnetic.

Very few of us are weathering our birds on a salt water beach - so swivels will last a long time even if they are made from a lower grade SS that responds well to a magnet.

Just using a magnet is not diagnostic of what the swivel is made of though. Brass is used in super cheap swivels that are prone to failures, and it is not magnetic either.

[Captain Gizmo]

Ummm....Brass is used in super cheap swivels that are prone to failures, and it is not magnetic either.

Per the diagram in post #36 below the name brand Sampo swivels have a nickel plated brass body and shaft. The bearing balls and rings are stainless. And as you point out "stainless" is a family of alloys with a lot of variations.

Regards,
Thomas of the Details

[jdouglas28]

Has anyone else used the Messinger swivels? Thinking about trying them out.
Jim Douglas

[goshawkr]

Per the diagram in post #36 below the name brand Sampo swivels have a nickel plated brass body and shaft. The bearing balls and rings are stainless. And as you point out "stainless" is a family of alloys with a lot of variations.

You can find Sampo swivels that are entirely stainless steel, if you really look and if you really want to pay the cash. They are used in Saltwater fishing.

My suggestion though is to use the brass ones and trade them out after a few seasons of us. More cost effective.

[Captain Gizmo]

You can find Sampo swivels that are entirely stainless steel, if you really look and if you really want to pay the cash. They are used in Saltwater fishing.

My suggestion though is to use the brass ones and trade them out after a few seasons of us. More cost effective.

My prejudice is to change them out after a few seasons fancy all stainless or no. Nothing lasts forever is one of my basic superstitions.

Regards,
Thomas of the Delayed Disasters

[dboyrollz76]

Ummm....

There are many alloys of stainless steel, with varying amounts of corrosion resistance. None of them are "junk". There are trade offs in anything. The additive in the alloy that makes SS corrosion resistant also disrupts the magnetic properties of the iron in the steel. So the more the steel responds to a magnet the less it will hold up against rusting. If you need your stuff to resist the highly corrosive environment of salt water, a magnet wont react to it. And yes, there is a point where you can effectively say it is no longer magnetic.

Very few of us are weathering our birds on a salt water beach - so swivels will last a long time even if they are made from a lower grade SS that responds well to a magnet.

Just using a magnet is not diagnostic of what the swivel is made of though. Brass is used in super cheap swivels that are prone to failures, and it is not magnetic either.

Ok!! you can say something all you want. But the fact remains that steel and iron will always be magnetic no mater what you put it in. Lay a paper clip on the table cover it with sheets of paper till you can no longer pic it up with the magnet. Grab a stronger magnet once again it sticks and you can pick up the paper clip through the paper. Same goes with the non ferrous metals. They are not magnetic, but proportional to the amount of steel and the strength of the magnet. It is magnetic. After all this a place to be absolutely correct right. If I agreed I would be lying to myself and not a proper falconer. Just keeping it alive!

[goshawkr]

Ok!! you can say something all you want. But the fact remains that steel and iron will always be magnetic no mater what you put it in. Lay a paper clip on the table cover it with sheets of paper till you can no longer pic it up with the magnet. Grab a stronger magnet once again it sticks and you can pick up the paper clip through the paper. Same goes with the non ferrous metals. They are not magnetic, but proportional to the amount of steel and the strength of the magnet. It is magnetic. After all this a place to be absolutely correct right. If I agreed I would be lying to myself and not a proper falconer. Just keeping it alive!

Derek,

you seem to insist on yelling at the ocean and convincing it to not be wet. Knock yourself out. Who knows, with enough talk you just might change physics and metallurgy.

[dboyrollz76]

Derek,

you seem to insist on yelling at the ocean and convincing it to not be wet. Knock yourself out. Who knows, with enough talk you just might change physics and metallurgy.

If you want to bring up physics, then you absolutely by your reference can say the ocean is not wet. If you want to go that route elements are elements you can’t change that you can combine them and create new ones by smashing them together. Iron is iron mix it with whatever you want it’s still magnetic if you overcome the mass of the other elements stainless will stick to a magnet. As far as metallurgy, I come from a long line of steel workers my grandfather founded Aladdin steel. Wich I inherited and ran for 9 years before I sold it to tubular steel in 2000. I have personally moved tons of sheet stainless with a 140k lb electromagnet attached to a skidder. Also I’ve been working around steel and precious metals for most of my life. You want to talk physics. Hit the books and come back to me when you learn something about metals.

[dboyrollz76]

Three metals interact with magnetic fields: ferromagnetic, paramagnetic and diamagnetic metals. Ferromagnetic metals are strongly attracted to magnets; the rest are not. Magnets also attract paramagnetic metals, but very weakly. Diamagnetic metals repel the magnet, though the force is typically very weak. Just because you can’t feel it don’t mean nothing just to be clear.

[dboyrollz76]

Here’s a read for you Geoff https://www.kimballphysics.com/multi...ainless-steels

[Falconer54]

I still have some Sampo swivels that are 40 years old. Still strong, bit discolored. Don't know all the details about the steel, but they aren't rusting, and holding up well. Most of my Peregrines jump in the bath pan around 5 days a week, less in the winter, but catch a lot of ducks. Swivels are subjected to a lot of water and blood, haven't had any failure. I really like the barrel swivel setup with the leash. BUT, have had a lot of problems with them. They will freeze and stop turning, also, bird shit will clog them up and then again, they don't want to turn!