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  1. #1

    Default Sampo vs Barrel Swivel

    Sampo vs Barrel Swivel

    While working on a book I investigated the internal nature of both the Sampo and Barrel swivel. It is easy to draw some conclusions after seeing how these swivels are made.

    Also, a friend from Montana was placing what could be called "Grouse Deflectors" on fences in areas where Sage and Sharp-tail Grouse commonly fly over barb-wire fences placed on high areas in a local flyway. The number of dead grouse convinced him that some sort of spinning deflector was needed to condition the grouse to choose a different course thereby saving their lives. Just by chance he happened to use both Sampo and Barrel swivels on the small spinning deflectors.

    What he found was very interesting. The swivels spun around powered by the wind at a good speed and were very effective in turning the grouse from that pathway. However, the barrel swivels came apart in short order. The swivels were put under extraordinary load and use. The Sampo held up to the abuse but the brass rivet in the internal portion of the barrel swivel actually reformed (or deformed) during use resulting in swivel failure. The Barrel swivel was a 570# model and the Sampo swivel was a 300# model.

    Although this is extraordinary use and the hawk on the lawn will only place an equal wear over an extremely very long time, it is nonetheless worth mentioning.

    I have placed a small * on the images in the spot that will first show wear in a swivel. If that area becomes loose and a small gap appears then the swivel may needs replacing.

    I don't normally make postings on the Forum but I thought this was very interesting. My time in responding will be limited but I would like to read the discussion as the Barrel Swivel has made a place for itself since the advent and common use of the braided tethering system.








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    Very interesting David! Thanks for the information. My thought is before a barrel swivel would wear out on a leash for a raptor, the leash itself would wear out. But your point about it does wear out eventually should be taken and the swivel should be checked over before using it on a new leash.
    Fred
    "Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    David,

    Why is the Sampo swivel installed upside down on the grouse deflector? I was taught to always have the spinning shaft DOWN. This allows any dirt/dust/water to fall out during use. Having it up allows dirt/water/ice to remain in the swivel & wear on the ball bearings and/or freeze up the swivel.

    I have seen many falconers use their Sampos upside down & never understood why.

    I've also noted that the place to watch for wear on Sampos is where the rings go thru the posts. Hard to explain but the holes eventually get bigger and the posts get thinner until they eventually crack.

    Alan

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    I've got a Sampo swivel that craped out in the course of one season. I fix bicycles and I have seen many ball bearings that have broke in half.
    I can't believe which end is up would matter. I understand these swivels are made for deep salt water fishing.
    Morris
    Morris Jorgensen weathervaneman.com
    Peace 2 U

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    it does not matter when it comes to water. It does however when it comes stuff like bird poo and dirt.
    http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/videogame/mario.gif Mario Nickerson
    www.Dirthawking.com
    I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar...

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    Thanks for sharing that David! Very interesting.
    -Ken
    (Maryland/Pennsylvania)

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    Quote Originally Posted by weathervaneman View Post
    I've got a Sampo swivel that craped out in the course of one season. I fix bicycles and I have seen many ball bearings that have broke in half.
    I can't believe which end is up would matter. I understand these swivels are made for deep salt water fishing.
    Morris
    Because if you have the open rotating end down debris falls out rather
    than staying in the bearings as it would if it is used with the open side
    facing up. Get some sand or other abrasive stuff in there and they will
    just grind themselves to death or jam up and stop rotating. The latter is
    probably going to happen first when the clog with mutes.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

  8. #8

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    Hi Alan,

    Yes, he put the Sampo upside down on the grouse deflector. You are correct that there is an up and down. The body of the Sampo will start to get loose just about the time the top ring is wearing through the brass housing. Nothing lasts forever.

    David Frank

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    Great thread David,
    Thanks for posting ringing this to our attention.
    My best to you.
    Keith

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    Great thread David. Thank you for the information.
    Chris Lynn
    -Owner and Admin of NAFEX.net.

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    thanks David. calling in the am ta order stuff
    Rich in Illinois....
    "Man has emerged from the shadows of antiquity with a Peregrine on his wrist......."

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    Interesting information David.

    There's something about barrel swivels that I don't care for. Just me.
    If I had a need for less costly swivels, I would use Sampo, and lets applaud the guy who cares enough to try this. A great example of someone who sees a problem and takes measures to help a species.
    Dan, aka oldguy.

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    This is a wake up call for me because, for some reason, I'd been thinking that barrel swivels had ball bearings in them. I've always been in the habit of dripping a bit of 3-in-1 oil in my swivels at least once a year, and I'm betting doing that on a more regular basis would help the barrel swivels tremendously. Especially with a hard bating bird. One thing to remember is that being made for underwater use, these swivels are designed to get their lubrication from the water they're submerged in, like an aquarium pump that will burn out if ran dry.
    On stainless steel, it's basically an "alloy".. which means "recipe" in metallurgy speak. With true stainless even the strongest magnets will not hold to it because it actually has no iron in it... which makes it not a 'steel' at all, really. So, if you carry a strong magnet in your pocket, you can check the quality of things labeled as stainless. It's become very popular to plate brass (or regular steels) with stainless because it's shiny/pretty (sells better), is much harder than brass, and doesn't oxidize. But, like David said, it's not soft at all, so it's not squishable/bendable, and much harder to cut. That's also why it's become so popular for knives as not only does it not have any iron in it to rust, but the harder properties of it help it hold an edge better.
    Michelle M., Fort Thomas, AZ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by borderhawk View Post
    This is a wake up call for me because, for some reason, I'd been thinking that barrel swivels had ball bearings in them. I've always been in the habit of dripping a bit of 3-in-1 oil in my swivels at least once a year, and I'm betting doing that on a more regular basis would help the barrel swivels tremendously. Especially with a hard bating bird. One thing to remember is that being made for underwater use, these swivels are designed to get their lubrication from the water they're submerged in, like an aquarium pump that will burn out if ran dry.
    On stainless steel, it's basically an "alloy".. which means "recipe" in metallurgy speak. With true stainless even the strongest magnets will not hold to it because it actually has no iron in it... which makes it not a 'steel' at all, really. So, if you carry a strong magnet in your pocket, you can check the quality of things labeled as stainless. It's become very popular to plate brass (or regular steels) with stainless because it's shiny/pretty (sells better), is much harder than brass, and doesn't oxidize. But, like David said, it's not soft at all, so it's not squishable/bendable, and much harder to cut. That's also why it's become so popular for knives as not only does it not have any iron in it to rust, but the harder properties of it help it hold an edge better.
    There is a bit of misinformation in this post. The difference between iron and steel is the addition of relatively small amounts of carbon to make the iron harder. Stainless steel is steel and is largely still mostly iron. Small amounts of a varying combination of generally chromium, nickel, manganese, etc., are added to steel to give it resistance to oxidation, i.e., corrosion.

    There certainly are methods of wordsmithing to imply they are "manufactured" from stainless w/o actually "containing" any. I use Spro swivels in my tethering gear so I will have to dissect a couple myself to see what they are constructed of.
    Eric Fontaine
    Southcentral Alaska

  15. #15

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    I recently learned that the construction of the Sampo swivel was not quite as I had shown on my original post and I wanted to bring it to the attention of the members. I managed to actually speak to the owner of Sampo Inc and shared with him my posting on NAFEX and the information about the grouse deflector with the use of different swivels. He emailed me later:

    "Yes, it (my original cut-away drawing) is wrong. But, it does not matter. Long story. We had a customer who wanted to use the #8 swivel for bird deflectors on high voltage power lines. They had to be set by helicopters, and last a long time. We set up a drill press with an #8 swivel, and I think 10 lbs of tension. Knowing the RPM's of the press, we let it run to 1 million turns and then gave up. It is the balls that reduce the friction, the metal does not matter that much, until you add a lot of weight."

    Brian Butts, Sampo Inc.




    Well, we all know we must all keep an eye on the swivels as nothing lasts forever. However, the old #8 Sampo is and will be the work horse of falconry swivels going into the future. It would just be nice if we could see inside over time to check for wear.




    David Frank Western Sporting
    Last edited by KidK; 04-14-2012 at 03:39 PM.

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    Bumping this thread as I just had two different sampo swivels quit on me in the last couple of weeks and was searching swivels. I only saw one mention in this thread of oiling swivels. Does anybody else do this? Curious if it extends the life of a sampo-style swivel to oil it from time to time...
    Josh, MN

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    Quote Originally Posted by oobie View Post
    Bumping this thread as I just had two different sampo swivels quit on me in the last couple of weeks and was searching swivels. I only saw one mention in this thread of oiling swivels. Does anybody else do this? Curious if it extends the life of a sampo-style swivel to oil it from time to time...
    I try to oil mine with 3-in-1 oil twice a year and have never had one fail on me. I think the longest I've used the same swivel has been about 4 years.
    Michelle M., Fort Thomas, AZ.

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    Default swivels

    Get a Pino swivel, only thing that you will regret is losing it.

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    I have a Pineo swivel that I think is going on 8 years old and looks like new,no signs of wear at all. I tether my redtails,no free lofting even through the moult,so that swivel has some hours on it.
    Nick

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    Quote Originally Posted by borderhawk View Post
    I try to oil mine with 3-in-1 oil twice a year and have never had one fail on me. I think the longest I've used the same swivel has been about 4 years.
    Michelle,

    Avoid oil products in locks and swivels. Oil is sticky and holds dust and grit. Use a dry lubricant. Graphite, Teflon, or Silicone.
    Where practical rig single ended swivels so they hang rotating side down. Grit then tends to fall past the opening between the rotating shaft and the shaft hole.

    Same advice for D swivels or Pineo swivels. Keep the grit from staying in the joints by keeping the joint area dry.

    Regards,
    Thomas of the Desert
    Tom Munson, Buckeye, AZ
    619-379-2656, tom@munson.us

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    Was it a sampo brand swivel or a sampo like swivel? Can you explain what you mean by the swivels quit on you? In 30 years, I haven't had a single sampo swivel fail. Maybe I just lose the to quick.
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkT View Post
    Was it a sampo brand swivel or a sampo like swivel? Can you explain what you mean by the swivels quit on you? In 30 years, I haven't had a single sampo swivel fail. Maybe I just lose the to quick.
    I was using these guys - size 8.

    http://www.basspro.com/Sampo-Ball-Be...product/15169/

    Basically - they get stiff/quit turning - which obviously isn't safe for a hawk. I guess due to the nature of the the way they attach they are hanging the wrong way. My bird's jesses are the braided ones w' the bump that keeps them from picking them out. Otherwise, I'd just swap them out and use just a swivel when tethering. That may contribute to them picking up dust/mutes. Perhaps the cold exacerbated the dust/mutes that they may have picked up over the past few years. I've got more coming in the mail. They're not that steep so I guess buying a couple every 3 years isn't a big deal.
    Josh, MN

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    Here's a photo of the old vs new swivels.

    Probably doesn't make a difference, but I noticed the new one (on the leash) has an extra ring between the snap and the swivel vs the old one where the snap is directly attached to the swivel.

    Josh, MN

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    I've never had one fail josh, but I don't use those on a tethered bird either. Mostly just in te field and transport.
    -Jeff
    "You live more for five minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life." --Marco Simoncelli

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    Those coast locks are put together upside down. While not a problem when fishing, it is a problem with our birds. Opening should always point down to prevent dirt and mutes from fouling swivel.

    Run them through some warm water and spray them down with teflon spray (not wd40) and see if that frees them up.
    http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/videogame/mario.gif Mario Nickerson
    www.Dirthawking.com
    I'm ashamed of what I did for a Klondike bar...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirthawking View Post
    Those coast locks are put together upside down. While not a problem when fishing, it is a problem with our birds. Opening should always point down to prevent dirt and mutes from fouling swivel.

    Run them through some warm water and spray them down with teflon spray (not wd40) and see if that frees them up.
    This is good information on the Teflon spray. When it dries it is completely dry and will not attract dirt like anything with oil in it.
    Daniel Parker
    Work hard and build your dreams, or someone will hire you to build theirs.

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    I just got 4 more in the mail. They aren't too expensive. I got ~3 years out of the last 2 I bought. I should be set for 6 more. I chucked the other two. I'd rather not chance having a bird unexpectedly get tangled.
    Josh, MN

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    There are copycat swivels out there. Make sure they are genuine Sampo. I have used CoastLocks for years, but change them annually because the do wear. The point of failure I've had is with the wire clip. Metal fatigue from opening and closing had it snap off.

    I've never used barrel swivels, and have never trusted them.

    BUT, the newer Sampos have the wire ending on the INSIDE of the swivel where the jess/leash line can get hung up. The older ones, do not. I will find the thread on this issue and post it.
    Kitty Carroll -- The Hawk of May

    ~~ The essence of falconry is not in the flight or the kill,
    but man's relationship with his hawk --- Terance Hanbury White~~

  29. #29
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    Here is the text of the email I sent to Sampo regarding the problems I now have with the coast lock swivels catching on my paracord jesses.

    I've been using Sampo swivels since 1974 for falconry applications. In recent years. On the most recent swivels I've purchased. I've noticed a small change in the clip on the Coastlock #8 swivel that has make my falconry uses more difficult. It is where the wire wrap ends at the swivel. Instead of being on the opposite side of the opening end of the swivel. It is on the side where cord or line is threaded onto the swivel.
    As a falconer, I use para cord jesses. This end snags on my para cord jesses when removing or attaching the jesses. Not a good thing. I also work with some birds that have difficult personalties. The snagging on the wire end when changing equipment and hinders a smooth transfer to field equipment. I have some older Sampo swivels that do not have this issue. They work much better and are easier to operate.

    A simple adjustment in your manufacturing process would eliminate this problem altogether. Just have the wire wrapped on the other side of the swivel opening, like it was with older Sampo swivels.

    In the photo attached, the copper colored swivel is the newer version where the wire ends inside. It snags on the paracord jesses I use and is a problem.

    The black swivel is an older swivel and you will see that the wire ends on the outside/opposite side of the swivel. Making it much easier to use.

    Thank you for looking into this matter.
    Kitty Carroll -- The Hawk of May

    ~~ The essence of falconry is not in the flight or the kill,
    but man's relationship with his hawk --- Terance Hanbury White~~

  30. #30
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    Here is the text with Sampo's contact information:

    Sampo Inc.
    119 Remsen Road
    P.O. Box 328
    Barneveld, NY 13304
    tel (315) 896-2606
    fax (315) 896-6575

    e-mail: info@sampoinc.com

    I've been using Sampo swivels since 1974 for falconry applications. On the most recent swivels I've purchased. I've noticed a small change in the clip on the Coastlock #8 and other swivels (#6) that has make my falconry uses much more difficult. It is where the wire wrap ends at the swivel. Instead of being on the outside of the opening end of the swivel, it is on the inside where cord or line is threaded onto the swivel.

    As a falconer, I use para cord jesses. This end snags on my para cord jesses when removing or attaching the jesses. Not a good thing. I also work with some raptorial birds that have difficult personalties. The snagging of the cord from the wire end when changing equipment and hinders a smooth transfer to field equipment. I have some older Sampo swivels that do not have this issue, because the wire ends on the OUTSIDE of the clip. They work much better and are easier to operate.

    A simple adjustment in your manufacturing process would eliminate this problem altogether. Just have the wire wrapped on the other side of the swivel opening, like it was with older Sampo swivels.

    In the photo attached, the copper colored swivel is the newer version where the wire ends inside. It snags on the paracord jesses I use and is a problem.

    The black swivel at the top of the photo is an older version of the swivel and you will see that the wire ends on the outside/opposite side of the swivel opening. Making it much easier to use.

    Thank you for looking into this matter.

    Sincerely,

    Karen ‘Kitty’ Carroll

    Karen ‘Kitty’ Carroll
    Kitty Carroll -- The Hawk of May

    ~~ The essence of falconry is not in the flight or the kill,
    but man's relationship with his hawk --- Terance Hanbury White~~

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    Here is the photo. I have a slow web connection and hope it posts.
    Kitty Carroll -- The Hawk of May

    ~~ The essence of falconry is not in the flight or the kill,
    but man's relationship with his hawk --- Terance Hanbury White~~

  32. #32
    dboyrollz76 Guest

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    Also strong neodymium magnets will stick to any form of steel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dboyrollz76 View Post
    Also strong neodymium magnets will stick to any form of steel.
    Stainless steels come basically in Austenitic and non-Austenitic. The Austenitic steels are non magnetic. Common example is the 18/8 stainless in dinnerware.
    I tried a strong neodymium magnet on two swivels. The coast lock on the smaller was very magnetic, the ring less so and the body not at all. On the larger swivel the rings were magnetic and the body not. None of them Sampo or SPO brand.

    Regards,
    Thomas of the Desert
    Tom Munson, Buckeye, AZ
    619-379-2656, tom@munson.us

  34. #34
    dboyrollz76 Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Gizmo View Post
    Stainless steels come basically in Austenitic and non-Austenitic. The Austenitic steels are non magnetic. Common example is the 18/8 stainless in dinnerware.
    I tried a strong neodymium magnet on two swivels. The coast lock on the smaller was very magnetic, the ring less so and the body not at all. On the larger swivel the rings were magnetic and the body not. None of them Sampo or SPO brand.

    Regards,
    Thomas of the Desert
    I would say you need a stronger magnet. Yes to a point it’s non magnetic at first glance but I assure you that with a strong neodymium magnet you can pick any ferrous metal up. Not a little one, one of the 100-200 lbs force magnets wich you can only get from electromagnets or the large neodymium magnets, like we use in magnet fishing. If there is any iron in it, it sticks. How much is relevant to the quality of your stainless. The only thing it won’t pick up is nonferrous metals. A small neodymium magnet say out of hard drives. They are strong for their size but it’s not enough. The amount of carbon and magnesium in the alloy combinewith about 15% nickel 7% iron. Greater mass of non magnetic properties of the alloy make it seemingly impossible to stick to the metal. But if you increase the magnetic pull to over come the mass of the non steal properties. Undoubtedly it will stick. No questions asked. That’s one of the easiest ways to test the quality of the stainless. If a magnet that has 50lb strength sticks your stainless is junk. If it takes a 100lb strength your getting close to quality stainless. 200lb force is premium.
    Unless you have spectrometer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dboyrollz76 View Post
    I would say you need a stronger magnet. Yes to a point it’s non magnetic at first glance but I assure you that with a strong neodymium magnet you can pick any ferrous metal up. Not a little one, one of the 100-200 lbs force magnets wich you can only get from electromagnets or the large neodymium magnets, like we use in magnet fishing. If there is any iron in it, it sticks. How much is relevant to the quality of your stainless. The only thing it won’t pick up is nonferrous metals. A small neodymium magnet say out of hard drives. They are strong for their size but it’s not enough. The amount of carbon and magnesium in the alloy combinewith about 15% nickel 7% iron. Greater mass of non magnetic properties of the alloy make it seemingly impossible to stick to the metal. But if you increase the magnetic pull to over come the mass of the non steal properties. Undoubtedly it will stick. No questions asked. That’s one of the easiest ways to test the quality of the stainless. If a magnet that has 50lb strength sticks your stainless is junk. If it takes a 100lb strength your getting close to quality stainless. 200lb force is premium.
    Unless you have spectrometer.
    Ummm....

    There are many alloys of stainless steel, with varying amounts of corrosion resistance. None of them are "junk". There are trade offs in anything. The additive in the alloy that makes SS corrosion resistant also disrupts the magnetic properties of the iron in the steel. So the more the steel responds to a magnet the less it will hold up against rusting. If you need your stuff to resist the highly corrosive environment of salt water, a magnet wont react to it. And yes, there is a point where you can effectively say it is no longer magnetic.

    Very few of us are weathering our birds on a salt water beach - so swivels will last a long time even if they are made from a lower grade SS that responds well to a magnet.

    Just using a magnet is not diagnostic of what the swivel is made of though. Brass is used in super cheap swivels that are prone to failures, and it is not magnetic either.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

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