Favorite accipiter books

[AK Rev]

I think I own most of them but on the chance I don't, what are your favorite accipiter books? Here's a list from memory that are good...

Anything McElroy writes...McDermott also...A Hawk for the Bush...Argue's translation of Training the Short-Winged Hawk...Cooper's Hawk: Cross Timber Chronicle...what else? There are some other gos books in my library but they are of lesser quality. Everyone should read T.H. White's The Goshawk since it's just good literature (on what NOT to do).

There is a shortage of material on passage short wings in my opinion. I know that Bill Boni is finishing up a book on passage Cooper's. Anything else coming out? When are we going to get a good collection of passage goshawk info? Somebody needs to write The Passage Accipiter.

[wyodjm]

I'm a big fan of Mavro's books. Also Bert's An Approved Treatise of Hawks and Hawking. There's also E.W. Jameson's The Hawking of Japan.

Great idea on a good book on passage Accipiters. However, more specifically on passage goshawks. But by multiple authors who have had multiple birds. A collaborative work. Collectively discussing their specialties such as manning, training, equipment, housing, diet, intermewing, and weight control. Things like that. Also things like seeling and perhaps water-boarding. Hooding also. Hawking ducks, hawking upland birds, hawking rabbits, hawking jacks.

I almost forgot trapping. You can't get a passage goshawk unless you trap it. Trapping equipment, where to trap, when to trap and so on.

"Knowledge is proud that he has learned so much; Wisdom is humble that he knows no more" ~ Cowper

[AK Rev]

Forgot to mention Jameson's books. I also have his book on Shortwinged Hawks. They are not cheap!

[PHILADELPHIA CITY HAWKER]

"Cooper's Hawk: Cross Timber Chronicle" - awesome book on the Coopers! my favorite, great writer !

[hcmcelroy]

The book that influenced me mostly was R Stevens Observations. That really made me think of hawks as individuals and of coursee it was for the longwingers. Mavro and McDermott are also up there but my all time favorite on the accipiters is not a falconry book but research about the gos. Robert Kenward, "The Goshawk" what a wonderful book it is!

Harry.

[AK Rev]

Thanks Harry for your reply. I have Steven's book and also Kenward's...although I haven't read the latter. I need to. I also have the gyr book in that series but haven't read it yet either!

[goshawkr]

... but my all time favorite on the accipiters is not a falconry book but research about the gos. Robert Kenward, "The Goshawk" what a wonderful book it is!

I'll have to agree with Harry - that is an amazing book. It was done as a research book by a well respected goshawk biologist, but Kenward is also a very experienced austringer, and there is some falconry sprinkled in.

Harry, there was a similar monotopic book done on the coopers hawk. Have you read that one?

[AK Rev]

Geoff, I would love to know the title of the Cooper's book. There was a small series from that publisher. I have the gyr book but I'm not aware of what other titles were available.

[PeteJ]

No one has mentioned Perkin's "Understanding Goshawks"? Hmm. I just know the title, I haven't read it or heard much about it.

[AK Rev]

Actually Pete, I was referring to that title when I said there were lesser titles not worth mentioning. I honestly couldn't get through it. The quality is quite poor, sad to say...to the point of being distracting. I'm sure he spent a lot of effort and money on it.

[GONEHAWKN]

I honestly couldn't get through it. The quality is quite poor, sad to say...to the point of being distracting. I'm sure he spent a lot of effort and money on it.

so i am not the only one? i am not here to speak badly of Darryl, but the book looks like something that someone put together on a pc and home printer....i could not get through it either..i am quite sure the book has plenty to offer in the info department too.....

[wayf]

Do yourselves a favor and use perkins book to start a fire next winter! That is all it is worth.

[goshawkr]

so i am not the only one? i am not here to speak badly of Darryl, but the book looks like something that someone put together on a pc and home printer....i could not get through it either..i am quite sure the book has plenty to offer in the info department too.....

Darryl has quite a reputation as an austringer, and while I have never been in the field with him I am sure that is well earned. I am sure he has a lot of good info to share.

After 4-5 years of anticipation I finally got my hands on a copy of his book. I was really dissapointed with the production quality, but the images are just fluff so I dug into the meat of it and eagerly read it.

I made it about 1/4 of the way and set it down, then gave it to a club fund raiser.

There is good stuff in there, but this book was written over several years and it shows. Its like 1,000 emails about goshawks roughly stitched together. It is badly in need of some copy editing and some idea cohesion in the writing.

[carlosR]

Waterboarding? I thought's what they do to terrorists..
Perkins book is actually not bad info-wise. The quality of the print is bad but I've enjoyed reading his ideas and descriptions.
Two books that should be on any Austringers shelf are actually written for longwingers. These are "The Flying Of Falcons" and "The Four Week Window". Not the typical how-to but rather an attempt to understand behavior and development.

[goshawkr]

Geoff, I would love to know the title of the Cooper's book. There was a small series from that publisher. I have the gyr book but I'm not aware of what other titles were available.

I havent seen it, but its called "the coopers hawk."

That publisher did several books that are mono-specific antholigies of published scientific field study data. I dont know which ones they did them on - my obsession is goshawks, I have the one on goshawks, DONE! in my mind.

The one on goshawks is a great read, as Harry mentioned. Although there is some field data cited in it from a bumbling idiot who worked up here in WA, and I had a hard time reminding myself to trust that he was just an anomoly. Kenward is clearly a good scientist, and cant be blamed for not knowing that this one guy he cited was a moron.

[goshawkr]

Waterboarding? I thought's what they do to terrorists..
Perkins book is actually not bad info-wise. The quality of the print is bad but I've enjoyed reading his ideas and descriptions.
Two books that should be on any Austringers shelf are actually written for longwingers. These are "The Flying Of Falcons" and "The Four Week Window". Not the typical how-to but rather an attempt to understand behavior and development.

I havnt read "the flying of falcons" (yet) but I was quite surprised when I heard Ed Pitcher speak at one of our state field meets when he was promoting that book by how closely his ideas came to some of my core philosopies. I certainly dont apply them as well as he does, but I can attest that they work very well for accipiters.

[AK Rev]

I recently read the 4 Week Window. I thought it was a great read and recommend it. I love reading ideas on hacking.

I really need to finish Pitcher's book. I've said that before and still haven't finished it! Several people that are falconry influences in my life have commented on how much that book has affected them. It's a quantum shift in falconry philosophy. Thanks for the reminder to get it finished.

[wyodjm]

Waterboarding? I thought's what they do to terrorists.

I didn't come up with the term. I don't know who did. Dan Konkel has been using this technique to man chamber raised gyrs for a few years. I guess it works really well. Steve Jones was here visiting this past weekend and he is sold on it. He's water-boarded over 50 gyrs and and gyr hybrids while helping Konkel. He suggested I try it on the next passage goshawk I get.

I'd like to learn more about it. I've never seen it done. It involves totally drenching the bird up to its neck and then carrying the bird on the fist while it is soaking wet, and not having it want to bate. That's where they got the name water-boarding.

I forgot waking as a manning tool for passage goshawks also. I'm only referencing books on passage goshawks specifically. That's where I see a gap in the more recent literature.

[carlosR]

Thanks for clarifying and I see the analogy. For books written on training the passage goshawk read Bert's "An Approved Treatise On Hawks And Hawking", also Ferreiras' "Falconry". Lots of information on the hawk of choice in the 1600's.

[hcmcelroy]

Dan,

The East Indians use the brail on pass gos to good advantage. I've used it on Cooper's and late passage HH. It really calms them down and if loosly fitted the birds can fly up to 25 feet so it is good for early creance training if one can bare to deviate from the norm a bit.

Harry.

[hcmcelroy]

Geoff,

Where can I purchase the Cooper's book you mentioned?
Thanks,

Harry.

[wyodjm]

Dan,

The East Indians use the brail on pass gos to good advantage. I've used it on Cooper's and late passage HH. It really calms them down and if loosly fitted the birds can fly up to 25 feet so it is good for early creance training if one can bare to deviate from the norm a bit.

Harry.

Hi Harry:

Yes, you're absolutely right of course...as usual. The brail completely slipped my mind. I've used brails on passage eagles. No need to explain deviating from the norm here Harry. I understand.

Also, on getting passage birds back into physical condition after intermewing them, I really like the rope training method. With eagles. There is a good chance I'll never use a creance again. However, I must admit I've never used the method with an intermewed passage goshawk yet.

Best,

Dan

[AK Rev]

I checked the publisher (T & AD Poyser) to see the rest of the series...nothing on Cooper's.

http://isbndb.com/d/publisher/t_a_d_poyser_a01.html

Harry, I was reading through some of your writings last night and saw again your mention of the brail. A search of the major suppliers didn't turn anything up. Do you know of a source or do you have to make your own? If so, which book has a good pattern? Thanks.

[PeteJ]

Not sure if these titles would help but here's some links.
The first is for "Cooper's Hawk: Accipiter cooperii" by Robert N. Rosenfield, John Bielefeldt, American Ornithologists' Union, Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=FEOTGQAACAAJ

And then there's "The Cooper's Hawk: Accipiter cooperii" by Heinz Meng http://books.google.com/books?id=TjR...k_similarbooks

[frootdog]

The Sparrowhawk by O'Broin is in my library. Has some good info.

As far as Perkins' book goes. I have it and have read it. I did not think it was all that bad. The quality of the pics suck and that's unfourtunate. Is his book anything groundbreaking? No. I think 2 things happened. First people have a hard time separating the falconer/author from the former NAFA Pres. Darryl had the misfourtune of being chosen to be the figurehead of a (at the time) sinking ship. Second it seems like with anything it's not cool to have an opposing opinion. Hell the first person to bring up the book admitted to not having read it, and another poster that said it sucked admitted to not having finished it. Some of the first "reviews" of the book were critical and it just snowballed from there. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's some great literary work but it's not terrible either. I do often wonder how the book would have been recieved had it not been published so soon after his NAFA Presidency. Now I should go back and reread it to refresh my memory.

[PeteJ]

In my own defense about not having read it, but bringing it up? The original poster was talking about accipiter books in his library and I knew that Perkin's book existed and perhaps mention of the book had been overlooked is all. I didn't read it for the same reason I didn't read McDermott's book, both of them had approaches to their accipiters that I had no interest in is all. I think recipes are for cooks that don't know how to cook, and making a lot of meals doesn't mean you can cook. The cat-like mentality of accipiters makes them so variable in their reactions that the austringer either has the ability to read them (inherently or developed) or never will. I know several very qualified falconers that would love nothing better than to have a wonderful, long-term Goshawk, but no matter how hard they try they just can't seem to make it happen. Its difficult to put a finger on exactly why they can't, but if I had to guess I think its likely that the are trying too hard to lead that bird, and accipiters just seem to do better if you let them lead you.

[Richard]

so i am not the only one? i am not here to speak badly of Darryl, but the book looks like something that someone put together on a pc and home printer....i could not get through it either..i am quite sure the book has plenty to offer in the info department too.....

I think it was done as a "get your foot in the door" type of thing for becoming a writer..... He probably should have become the writer first and then published the book.

I haven't seen it, though, and don't want to. But it's more of a personal thing with me. He was the NAFA president during "Operation Witch Hunt" here in Colorado and would not even reply to emails sent to him about it. Then at the NAFA meet, he refused to even discuss it after many of us who were involved had waited all day in the meeting room having requested a discussion. It was the typical NAFA "bury your head in the sand" attitude, and he was the head at the time.

[MrBill]

Man, you guys are brutal when it comes to Darryl's book. Understand, I have only met him a couple of times at NAFA meets, so I don't know him at all. And, I have not read his book. But, I do know it takes courage to publish a well-intended treatise on any hawk. I remembe that this same thing happened here with regard to Harry's last book (not quite as bad, of course), and my response was, make the plunge and publish your own book before blatently criticizing other people's well-intentioned efforts, particularly on an open forum like this. While Darryl may not have composed it as well as he sould have, which is what it appears, give him credit for writing and publsihing information that he felt would benefit the falconry community in some way. And, who really cares about the fact that it may not appear to have been published by Hancock House Publishing; if this were the case Harry's early books would have never been well-received by the falconry community, which, of course, was not the case, as we were more interested in what he had to say, and he had plenty of information to offer us. It is easy to be critical.

Pete, I agree with you, as I think most folks do--there are too many variables for an all encompassing recipe to work, but there are some rudimentary things that can be said in general about individual species, that can, of course, be incorporated in an overall training method (IMHO).

Bill Boni

[MrBill]

Richard writes;

>I think it was done as a "get your foot in the door" type of thing for becoming a writer..... He probably should have become the writer first and then published the book.

I haven't seen it, though

Well, Richard, I guess you should read it first before commenting about his writing ability. And, of course, people have been on you for years to publish something about the goshawk, but you have not done so. I am fairly cetain that you realize, perhaps more than most, the difficulty of taking pen in hand and putting your thoughts out there on a given species in book form; it's not for the weak of heart, that's for sure, because everything you write is going to be scrutinized and, in some cases, unnecessary criticized.

I can't say much about Darryl's tenure as President of NAFA, because I was pretty much out of the loop in those days, but I can say that he was elected for an unprecedented three terms.

Bill Boni

[AK Rev]

This thread isn't intended to bash any writer or book...just the opposite. Let's discuss what books you LIKE. That's why I didn't mention every accipiter book out there in the initial post. I'm wondering which good ones I have missed...or discuss the ones mentioned that you do like.

[Richard]

Well, Richard, I guess you should read it first before commenting about his writing ability. And, of course, people have been on you for years to publish something about the goshawk, but you have not done so. I am fairly cetain that you realize, perhaps more than most, the difficulty of taking pen in hand and putting your thoughts out there on a given species in book form; it's not for the weak of heart, that's for sure, because everything you write is going to be scrutinized and, in some cases, unnecessary criticized.

I can't say much about Darryl's tenure as President of NAFA, because I was pretty much out of the loop in those days, but I can say that he was elected for an unprecedented three terms. Bill Boni

I reckon you're right Bill. I've been seeing the mortality thing showing it's ugly head lately with my getting older and wimpier and losing family and friends. I guess I'd best get on with it! I have been thinking about it lately and what format to use and all. I'm thinking about an autobiography wrapped up in falconry with a bit of how I done it.

I'd best not say any more about Perkins. I'm thinking he was probably in the wrong place at the wrong time and got the usual NAFA "counseling" from his "staff". BTW, the NAFA president isn't elected, he's appointed by the Board. The Board is elected, but the folks in charge push hard to get only the people they want on it.

[AK Rev]

For what it's worth, there is a gap in modern writing on passage goshawks. Personally, I think an anthology/collection is a great approach to that but if anyone decides to write a gos book...I'll buy it. That's the point of my initial post...just the idea that I might be missing a good book makes me itchy.

Anyone like "Goshawk: God Made You Eternal"? I've got it but have only read a couple of chapters.

[MrBill]

Richard,

I think your idea of writing about your life in falconry would certainly be the better way to go (as you suggest), as the book would be of more value, since you have been an avid falconer for many years; in other words, writing specifically about the goshawk would limit the information that you have to offer the falconry community based upon your life experiences along the way. You had better get started :-)

Bill Boni

[PeteJ]

.....
Pete, I agree with you, as I think most folks do--there are too many variables for an all encompassing recipe to work, but there are some rudimentary things that can be said in general about individual species, that can, of course, be incorporated in an overall training method (IMHO).

Bill Boni

I guess my point about that was, books are useful for getting your feet wet, but you won't swim if you don't actually do something with the bird you are reading about. With accipiters probably more than any other group, the relationship with most falconers is extremely transitory for various reasons. I think that having someone give you a cookie cutter and some dough isn't really going to help you much with these creatures. They're just cut from such an odd fabric compared to the others that it is really difficult to find a common thread that can be woven throughout them as a group.
Obviously I'm not saying don't buy and read books. Just understand that with accipiters it has more to do with how YOUR personality is and how it will mesh with your individual accipiters than it is how well you can follow directions. Your personality and how you do things will actually dictate your success with accipiters more than how many books you might have read about them.

[hcmcelroy]

Bryan,

The use of the brail is on pg 117 and the drawing is on pg 29 of DH with a little help...

Or I can copy and send those pages.

Harry.