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Thread: Thoughts on Manning, from a Behaviorism Perspective

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    Default Thoughts on Manning, from a Behaviorism Perspective

    Okay, so here's a rough, unedited draft of some thoughts on manning I put together today. There are likely some grammatical errors and things that could be better-worded, but this is a start. I'm happy to start a dialogue with anyone who has any questions about this, as some concepts are complicated. For the sake of time, simplicity, and length, I haven't provided definitions for all of the jargon, so you'll have to google them if you're interested in learning more, or I can explain later on.

    Cheers.


    PHILOSOPHY

    Most falconry literature mentions that occasionally—despite a falconer’s best efforts—individual birds will not work out for use in falconry. These birds never tame down, these authors contend, and will not respond to glove, lure, or even game without weight being cut to the bone. Many falconers also believe that the traits of a bird are largely inborn rather than learned or cultivated, and that there are a percentage of birds (especially wild eyasses that lack a pedigree) that are destined to fail due to genetic fate.
    While there is no doubt that genetics do certainly play a role when it comes to gifted performers, a bird’s physical build, or an unusual level of natural tameness, I contend that with the right early interactions with the falconer, any tabula rasa raptor can be trained to take game, respond well in the field, and otherwise be well-adjusted in captivity. Even if the reader vehemently disagrees with this notion, it behooves him or her to not at least practice a working empiricist’s approach despite his misgivings, as the alternative effectively seals the fate of the falconers’ charge and suppresses the quest for novel approaches that might work where more orthodox approaches fail. It’s the old nature versus nurture argument, and to put it in a different perspective, consider the following: If your child was having difficulty with spelling or math, would you rather have his or her teacher adopt a “nature” approach—that is, the child is just not naturally gifted, so is not worth the effort of teaching—or the nurturing approach which contends that with the right approach, the child can not only learn these skills, but excel at them?
    Granted, raising children and training falconry birds don’t exactly harbor the same gravity, but making the mental leap of the empiricist prevents the falconer from prematurely damning his charge. Why is it that a falconer who makes mistakes along the journey of raising an imprint is forced to publicly accept the consequences of mistakes during the raising process, yet those dealing with passagers or chamber-raised individuals are permitted to wantonly disregard potential mistakes or incongruent techniques, and instead place the blame on the animal?
    Aside from exponentially increasing the chances that the bird will be successful, this philosophy also fosters an environment conducive to life-long learning, in which the falconer will only become more analytical, self-critical, and ultimately a more accomplished gamehawker.

    OPERANT CONDITIONING

    This is an important point: a falconer cannot “choose” whether or not to use operant conditioning; it is innate and omnipresent in every single minute of every single day of every single animal. Like gravity, its laws and theories hold true even if one doesn’t understand or accept it. To successfully fly a plane, it’s helpful to have a working knowledge on how gravity works, and to fly a hawk, it’s helpful to familiarize oneself with Behaviorism, respondent behavior (Operant Conditioning), and reflexive behavior (Classical Conditioning).

    A Quick Overview of Traditional Training Methods From A Behaviorism Perspective

    Traditional manning techniques rely on a combination of several passive conditioning techniques that fall under Classical Conditioning, simultaneously paired with respondent behavior conditioning. Early on, when the bird is first unhooded and the jesses are restrained, the falconer is relying on the effects of negative reinforcement. As the bird bates it is restrained by the jesses; the consequences of hanging upside down and the pressure on the legs (negative reinforcement) increases the likelihood of sitting on the glove. Think about the beeping alarm when a car is started and the seatbelt is not fastened: the beeping conditions the driver to buckle the seatbelt in order to remove the aversive stimulus of the beep. In the same manner, the hanging upside down and pressure on the legs is relieved as the bird regains the fist or is placed on the fist with the help of the falconer.
    In conjunction with the negative reinforcement conditioning, the classical conditioning phenomenon known as short term habituation begins to take hold. Think of someone popping a balloon behind your back unexpectedly—at first, a reflexive startle response occurs, but if another balloon is popped shortly afterwards, the reflex no longer happens, or the response is weakened.
    So, the negative reinforcement of the jesses increases the likelihood of the hawk remaining on the glove (or inversely, punishes bating and decreases the bating behavior), and short-term habituation places a temporary decrease in reflexive startle responses. What the falconer hopes to accomplish, if these effects do indeed occur, is to begin pairing positive reinforcement with the behavior of sitting on the glove in proximity to a human. This is called counterconditioning—a stimulus that once associated with an aversive (the human) becomes associated with a positive stimulus (food). Weight is dropped, which increases the value of the primary reinforce (food). More time is spent with the bird, either on the glove or on an indoor perch, and this solidifies the process of long-term habituation. The net gain of this is what we as falconers refer to as the degree in which the bird is manned.
    The other traditional taming technique that falconers use is “waking.” A hawk is “waked” by different means, based on local tradition. In medieval Europe, a succession of handlers restrained the bird in shifts for three days or more, constantly exposing the hawk to unnerving stimuli and depriving it of sleep; in Pakistan and Afghanistan, hawks were casted, the tail wrapped, and were placed in cages in bustling coffee shops or marketplaces. These are attempts at flooding (response blocking), and there are tinges of learned helplessness that begin to creep in. Flooding can be thought of as an animal permanently becoming habituated to certain stimuli by exposing the hawk to inescapable aversive stimuli until it no longer elicits a response. That is, things that once elicited an escape-avoidance response now elicit no response at all. Keep in mind, however, that in learned helplessness and flooding experiments in the lab, most, but not all animals responded to such conditioning. This will be important later.
    Most raptors eventually come around to these methods, but there are some potential pitfalls. These pitfalls don’t often cause major unwanted behavioral conditioning in the majority of birds, but they are, I believe, exactly what cause the more sensitive individuals to become maladapted to falconry.

    UNEXPECTED PITFALLS ENCOUNTERED IN TRADITIONAL FALCONRY MANNING


    The most important thing a falconer can learn about operant conditioning is that the use of aversives in training (negative reinforcement, punishment) tend to cause side effects. These negative side effects include increases escape-avoidance behavior, increased aggression, apathy, generalized fear, and much more. The science is there and proves this.
    Next, remember short-term and long-term habituation? Animals tend to habituate to stimuli that are irrelevant or insignificant, for obvious evolutionary reasons. However, animals tend to sensitize to stimuli that are relevant or dangerous in some way. Think of a soldier that slowly becomes habituated to the constant sound of bombs and gunfire far in the distance. It makes sense for the brain to stop reacting to these relatively insignificant sounds. Now picture the soldier when an artillery shell explodes close by, or gunfire erupts in the vicinity—the response is immediate, serious, and for survival. The more times a soldier reacts to these immediate dangers and survives, the more ingrained the particular behavior becomes. By contrast, if a soldier habituated to nearby bombs and gunfire, they would be removed from the gene pool in short order.
    Now, consider the soldier who returns home and is affected by Post Traumatic Stress (PTS). What occurs here is the sensitization response has generalized to similar stimuli. For instance, the slam of a car door can elicit a similar response to the behavior exhibited when a mortar exploded in the battlefield. Not all soldiers develop PTS.
    Let’s relate all this to our hawks. Remember that animals tend to sensitize to stimuli that are relevant or dangerous? Well, to a wild hawk, what is more “relevant or dangerous” than being fettered to a giant predator, 100 times their size? The biggest mistake a falconer can make is to force a fat, wild hawk to sit on the glove in an attempt to habituate it to people. Even worse are those falconers who insist on manning hawks fresh off the trap outdoors or tether a new hawk to a bow perch. It doesn’t make much of a difference whether or not the hawk is bating itself silly, flaring its wings in “dragon mode,” or in shock and frozen to the perch—the falconer is still running a risk of sensitizing the hawk to humans.
    One of the greatest falconry quotes I’ve ever read (I think it was Martin Hollinshead) was that “bating doesn’t make a hawk tamer, it makes it wilder.” This is a falconer who intuitively understands the potential of sensitizing his birds to him. In addition, rehearsing any behavior over and over tends to make it a habit (Guthrie’s Theory), and behavior that leads to survival during times of stress tends to be repeated. Picture our soldier responding to close explosions by hitting the deck and finding cover; if he survives, this it is likely this behavior will be repeated. In the exact same fashion, let’s picture a hawk that bates when the falconer approaches to pick it up from the perch, or a bird that bates and hangs upside down when it is being tethered. Because it survived this “relevant or dangerous” experience by rehearsing this behavior, it will likely become quickly conditioned. Picture our soldier who developed PTS, and imagine how easily fear, escape behaviors, and aggression can become generalized and more prevalent with hawks.
    I’ve seen plenty of hawks that—even after years in captivity—still bate away from the falconer and the hood. I’ve seen plenty of hawks that have poor field control or won’t work with the falconer, even though they are very sharp. In my estimation, these are the hawks that don’t tend to become conditioned to learned helplessness or flooding phenomena, and are more likely to sensitize to their experience in captivity unless the utmost care is taken. Not surprisingly, there are a disproportionate number of prairie falcons, cooper’s hawks, and goshawks that don’t work out. Also, not surprisingly, these are the species that have been subjected to the more extreme manning techniques of flooding in stark contrast to the more congenial peregrines, merlins, Harris’ hawks, etc.

    BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS BASED ON REPETITION OF POSTIVE EXPERIENCES

    Early in my falconry career, I would rack my brain trying to figure out what the best “recipe” was for anti-carrying conditioning, how to best train a hawk to hood, how to step off a kill—and—how to man a hawk. What I realize now is that there are no recipes—it’s all about minimizing negative experiences as much as possible and giving as much control to the hawk as possible, as early as possible. There is no way to force or coerce a hawk into becoming a falconer’s hunting partner; it must make that decision on its own. Building this relationship is where I believe the art in falconry truly lies, as a tame, well-adjusted bird chooses and appreciates living in captivity and hunting with the falconer. Below are some thoughts that drastically decrease the percentage of birds that won’t work out for falconry.
    • Minimize bating and rehearsal of escape-avoidance behavior through the use of the hood, especially early on. When I first unhood a new passager, it is in a dim, quiet room with no commotion. Unfortunately, this tried and true advice of the masters of old has fallen to the wayside, and an increasing number of falconers are attempting to man their birds outside or with commotion right away.
    The goal is to get the bird eating as soon as possible. The sooner it is eating, the quicker the counterconditioning process can occur. Distractions won’t help here. If the bird is repeatedly bating or shows no interest in eating, it is re-hooded. Feeding can be attempted again in a few hours with smaller birds or those trapped in thinner condition, or the next day with large, robust hawks.
    • Once the bird is eating, use washed meat to increase the amount of positive time spent with the hawk without putting on weight. The lowest weight my hawks will ever be at is when they are first learning to jump to the glove and are flying the creance. This minimizes fear and minimizes any negative experience such as the bird flying off and checked on creance, bating, etc.

    • Hawks should be kept hooded at all times except training until they begin hopping to the glove. After this, they can be tethered to an indoor perch (preferably off the ground), and offered tidbits/ stepped up throughout the day to condition them to the approach.

    • No “manning” on the glove. Unless the bird is eating or being actively trained, it is never walked around bare-headed on the glove. This minimizes any bating that can occur and slants the relationship towards heavy association of positive experiences and minimal negative experiences. Habituation is achieved with the indoor perch.

    • Make sure the hawk is 100% reliable stepping up indoors and is hopping to the glove outside before transitioning to the outdoor weathering. Transition to outdoors slowly.

    • Make sure the bird is 100% reliable stepping up outdoors without bating before moving on to the creance.

    • Make sure response to the lure is instant, and introduce the live lure (if that jells with your ethics). With passage falcons, I find it easier to introduce the live lure, then use a frozen pigeon or quail, and gradually move to a leather lure in time.

    • Spend as little time on the creance as possible. This is the age of telemetry—it’s worth the risk. What this will do is minimize the chances of negative experiences associated with the inherent restraint. It will also allow the falconer to exploit the passager’s predisposition to fly wide and high the first few times it is free flown. Toss a bagged pigeon on the second free flight when the bird is a half mile out, and it will learn to eat up the sky without the kite.

    • Finally, and most importantly, give the hawk as much countercontrol over its environment as possible. Modern behaviorists cite strong evidence that an animal’s innate desire to control its environment actually meets the criteria of a primary reinforcer (food, water, shelter, and sex). Abberant behavior, neurotic behavior, and depression in animals all stems from one cause: lack of control over one’s environment, or the perception of this.

    The best way to get a wild hawk used to traffic, trains, people in the field, or anything else that might cause a nervous reaction is to give the bird power to escape. Don’t hold the jesses—even with food. Let go of the bird. Most often the fear response to strange stimuli is exacerbated by the fact that the bird knows that it cannot escape. Let go of the jesses and watch the confidence of the bird (and response to the glove and lure) grow.
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    Great post Dillon!!! I especially like the last section. The strobe technique I and others have mentioned goes hand in hand with what you wrote. This thread should be a good one for all. Especially anyone new to the sport! Should get them off on the right foot. In the end all of this about whats best for the birds. I'll contribute more when my 4 year old daughter gives daddy a break LOL!
    Jeremy Roselle

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    Interesting read!

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    Very interesting Dillon. Some of what you say, I have done the opposite and will try what you have said with my next bird.

    Two questions:

    1. "Transition to outdoors slowly". What are your steps for this?

    2. "Finally, and most importantly, give the hawk as much countercontrol over its environment as possible". I am not sure what you are talking about here. Can you give examples or explain this in more detail?
    Fred
    "Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    I love this Dillon, thanks! Well written indeed.

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    Dillon:

    Thank you for taking the time to organize and share your thoughts on this subject.

    I participate on this forum because I enjoy reading about falconry and what others have to share. That being said, as we all know, posts come in all sizes and flavors and offer a wide range in the value they offer to the reader.

    From my perspective, I would rank this post in the top 1% of the posts I've read on this site.

    Looking forward to following this thread and any future threads you might start.

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    +2 on that! Great post!!!!
    All the best,
    -Dan-

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    Great post
    Sean T

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    Thanks for the positive feedback, guys! I'll try to follow up on this thread today during my lunch hour.
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    Hi Dillon,
    Great post! One of the few posts with real substance. Like Jeremy, I too appreciate your last section, very succienct. Thank you for putting into words the practices that have worked so well for me. I especially like the bit about griving the bird control of it's enviorment. I've seen how well birds settle down and begin to trust when they have the freedom to make choices. It opens the door for a deep bond to develop that goes beyond food.
    My best to you.
    Keith

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    Great Post!!!! makes me more excited for the upcoming trapping season. I to have seen where I have done the exact opposite in my manning/tranning of my my previous bird and have thought those were areas on where I needed to work on and you basically just spelled it out for me thanks alot for this thread!
    Ricky Ortiz
    Stockton, CA

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    When manning a fresh bird I used to for years take the approach of cut the birds weight and wait for a certain desired respnce. This aproach always felt unnatural to me. One of the main reasons I hated manning birds. Just ask my good friend Big Jer LOL! I was then unknowingly moving towards these, IMO, much more progressive manning ideas. It was then fueled heavily by guys like Leyman and Al Ross.
    Thought of taking a fresh trapped bird, raising its weight drasticaly was foreign at first but made sence very quickly. This helped to establish a new (low) weight that would be needed. Example: if a bird is trapped hog fat at 30 oz and is then given the traditional manning regimen of full exposure resulting in lots of bating its initial free flight weight may be 22 oz? This would mainly be due to snaping the birds weight hard enough to get the desired responce. However if the falconer takes the birds weight way up when first trapped, say to 33 ounces?,.....then takes the bird down slowly giving it ample time to adjust to its new life, we may find that the (low) weight needed for its first free flieght would be 25 oz? I trapped a passage female prairie this past december. She was trapped at 850 grms. I would consider her an average bird while manning. Not crazy but not a sweetheart either. One good thing was she loved to eat! Having 3 other birds at the time forced me to get a little sloppy (fast) in my training. I cut her down to 700 grms for the first few creance sessions. She did okay but having it only been 2 weeks since her trapping made for some wildness on her part. I then came to my senses and gave her to a good friend. He is a very experianced "ol timmer". He immediately took her weight up to 875 grms. Full crop every day. Lots of face time outside! Nothing fancy just feeding on the glove. He kept her there for 2 weeks then brought her down to 730 grms. She was a beast at this weight! Flew well and was sweet as pie on the kill from day one! Within 10 days of her first flight she was eating the sky up at 810 grams! This bird flew bigger then any bird I have seen 10 days off the creance. Most of the time she was a half mile out and up over a thousand pumping hard! Point is Al gave her the option (and time) to fly at a higher weight. He became friends with her par say and gave her little reason to not like him. Slow and easy was his approach. I can not buy into the line that most praiies beed to be flown on the edge? My tiercel from this year was the same as Al's female. From waht I saw of Hub's approach with his female its the same as Al's. Takem way up for the first week then down. Give them time to wrap there heads around there new life.
    Giving the bird (control) has been my biggest tool while manning. After the initial first days of manning I have often let the my (smaller) birds, merlins and coops) loose in a room with no windows and just sat. The bird flys in panic then lands, all the while expecting us, the (preditor)to give chase? When we don't it starts to set a new way of thinking for them when it comes to the falconer. I then let them move about freely around me with no action on my part to move towards them. I may even have a fully plucked sparrow in my hands while sitting there. I would then set a tethered live sparrow in front of me for them to come to. I would tid bit them while they pluck and then slowly pick them up. Giving the bird the "option" goes a long way in manning. This approach can be done with larger birds as well. However I take a slightly different approach. Sorry for the typos! Doing this from my "dumb" phone is not easy
    Jeremy Roselle

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredFogg View Post
    Very interesting Dillon. Some of what you say, I have done the opposite and will try what you have said with my next bird.

    Two questions:

    1. "Transition to outdoors slowly". What are your steps for this?

    2. "Finally, and most importantly, give the hawk as much countercontrol over its environment as possible". I am not sure what you are talking about here. Can you give examples or explain this in more detail?
    Hi Fred,

    To transition outdoors, I usually start weathering the bird hooded outdoors for a few days. Most hoods aren't completely light-tight, IMO, and the hawk can feel the breeze, sun, and hear (albeit muffled) the same things they will later. On the day I will tie them to the block in the weathering yard, I pick them up from the indoor perch (shelf, pole, or "taming box"), hood, weigh, and tether outside for 15-20 minutes, as has been the routine the bird knows. Then, instead of picking up for a formal training session, I pick the bird back up, while still tethered to the block, unhood, and hand a tidbit. Then I step them off to the perch, hand them another tidbit to get them focused on food instead of bating. At this point-- and this goes against the intuition of many-- I hand them a tyring like a quail wing or pigeon wing, and let them start picking at it on the perch. Then I hand another tidbit while they're working on the tyring. I walk away, let the bird tear at the tyring for a few minutes, then approach and tidbit again. This keeps the bird occupied the entire time. I end by stepping the bird up, hooding, doing the formal training session, and then it spends the night in the house again. The next day, I repeat this same process, but I leave the bird to its own devices for 15-20 minutes, then do some tidbit reps, step up, and fly. I gradually increase the time spent bareheaded until they are being weathered all day long outside.

    A couple points I follow: First, I never start this process close to dusk or first thing in the morning. I find that in the morning the bird knows it has the entire day ahead of it and will be very batey. Near dusk they'll want to roost and will bate a lot. Best to do it an hour or two before dusk, and gradually increase the time to earlier in the day, if your schedule allows it. If the weather is warm, as it often is here in AZ, I also wet down the bird with a spray bottle-- this curtails bating, and the bird will dry (out here, anyway) by the time we're ready to train.

    Second, I'm really particular on the setup of a weathering yard. I've found that the best setup is one where there is a solid back so that the hawk feels somewhat secure, and the sides and front open, with as wide of a view as possible. A more enclosed weathering can work well for some of the more wild birds (I've used shade cloth temporarily), but I've found most bating occurs because the bird wants to get out of the claustrophobic environment that many weathering yards are, or they're simple thrown to the fire and given no transition time. With a more calculated approach, as outlined above, I haven't had many issues. The main thing to avoid is scooping the bird up from the perch outside if it gets a bit wild. Worst case scenario if I really screwed up and overestimated the bird's confidence, which I've done before, I'll sit near the bird, as this seems to reduce bating, and try my best to crawl in with a big piece of juicy meat and step it from the perch that way. Usually, more time spent tidbitting on the perch or a tad bit more temporary weight reduction solves this right quick. Make the mistake of scooping a bird up while it's bating away just once or twice, and it's easy for this behavior to become ingrained.

    2. Countercontrol. There have been many studies done with monkeys on this subject. In one study, a group of macaques were given food, water, toys, etc. on an ad-lib basis, for free. They were just thrown in the cage. The second group were trained to pull a rope in order to get these items. The second group of macaques were not only more active and displayed more signs of well-being, they were also far more resistant to developing a fear response of a wind-up toy monster that was introduced to both groups later on. Simply having the power in their environment to perform a behavior and earn consistent rewards gave them generalized confidence.

    This isn't falconry, but it's a good example: I recently did a film project with some hawks in which they had to be trained to fly to me, harnessed in the back of a pickup truck going about 30 mph. Some approaches might be to feed the bird, get nearer and nearer, begin feeding the bird in the bed with the engine running, etc. You can imagine the steps thereafter. Rather than do that, I just performed repetitions flying to the glove for tidbits with me in the back of the truck and it already running. The birds would make a few passes over the glove at first, but then finally landed, ate the tidbit, and promptly took off. With each repetition, however, the flee response weakened. The birds were following the truck the very next day, happily sitting the glove with no anklets or equipment by their own volition. They simply new they had the power to escape if things got dangerous. Birds that are given this power early on seem to take life in stride and have a generalized confidence to everything new. Birds that are jessed and forced to be exposed to "scary" things tend to have just the opposite-- they have a generalized sensitization response and bate/ fly away from everything, from the stray dog in the field to the new hat the falconer just bought and wore for the first time.

    More to come.
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    I like this thread, it goes right along with what i've used on my current gos to make progress with what i've thought is a difficult bird in the past. A lot of this also parallel's what I used for my coops last fall.

    Just a couple quick thoughts/short summaries:
    -Don't mess with a new bird just because you have it. The bird should be worked with in sessions and when hungry. I've only ever attempted waking with 1 bird and didn't see the gains over avoiding negativity and short positive sessions. I've never been a fan of starvation, better to keep their metabolism going and rely on hunger not weight.

    -The countercountrol is very powerful. This is probably the primary tool that has allowed me to make more and more progress with my gos. Approaching him until he becomes uncomfortable, CR or CR/tidbit and retreat gives him control of me. Almost totally removed his anxiety at approach within a couple days and proved to be an extremely useful tool for salvaging situations that were problematic/falling apart in the field. It's really important if you start using this to ALWAYS honor their cues and be conscious of them.

    Edit: Layman has used the hawk whispering for a long time, that's what i'm doing. I see it as a form of the countercontrol that is extended to the falconer and flexible outside the mews.
    -Jeff
    "You live more for five minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life." --Marco Simoncelli

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    Great thoughts, as always, Jeremy.

    One of the dividing lines between falconers is always weight control. What I respect about Jeremy and others here is their desire to fly their birds as heavy as possible. One of the biggest benefits of giving a falconry bird countercontrol (power over its environment) is that they can be flown at extremely high weights. This is simply because the falconer hasn't become a cue (discriminative stimulus) for punishment/ negative reinforcement. The bird hasn't had the jesses grabbed and hasn't been forced to do things, so those things don't weigh in in the bird's decision making process (a bit anthropomorphic, I know). When the falconer uses traditional training, the falconer often has to negate all of these negative experiences with more weight control. Hungrier birds are more prone to mantle, foot the falconer, scream, and they also won't have the muscle or energy that their heavier counterparts have. When the weight of these birds is increased, their field response goes down the toilet and they begin looking at the horizon, weighing other options.

    One more thing I thought I'd add is that even though I've tried to explain some of the science behind these techniques, they're certainly not my ideas. The way I do things has been influenced largely by the writings of falconers like Ed Pitcher, Ken Tuttle, and Harry McElroy. Harry was using the free-flight system earlier than almost anyone, and there's no coincidence that he's had such success with difficult birds like cooper's hawks. The magic in his method is the inherent lack of restraint.
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    I'm liking this thread Dillon. You raise some interesting notions. Very little, if any of the skills I've learned as a falconer are of my own original thought. They were passed down to me from other falconers. Perhaps molded and shaped to fit my particular situation but, the ideas didn't start out as my own.

    I am very interested in becoming as skilled as I possibly can be with passage golden eagles and goshawks. I've even entertained the possibilities with a passage prairie falcon. But I truly love passage eagles and goshawks.

    To anyone who's been around a bit, none of this stuff is really rocket science. Someone long ago once told me that, with passage birds, you gently lead the bird on in a straight line. Positive reinforcement. You don't really change what you're doing with different passage birds, but you change the pace sometimes, being observant and sensitive to an individual bird's behavior during the manning process. This keeps you from getting stuck in a rut.

    In the beginning, my passage birds live in the hood. The hood only comes off when I feed the bird on the fist. To be able do this more often, I feed multiple small meals on the fist at different times during the day. I don't give any casting during these times. Once a bird is comfortable feeding on the fist outside, I work on approach training while the bird is on the ground. I'm also becoming a fan of rope conditioning/training where the bird isn't on a creance but on a long rope that uses resistance. It's a great tool because the bird really doesn't know it's being restrained. At least not by you. It is a great tool for approach training passage birds.

    The first few times out hawking a new passage bird, I feel as though I'm on top of the world and have achieved my goal when I bring the bird home with me at the end of the day!

    And then there is the pair bonding relationship you build with a passage eagle as this whole process unfolds and develops.
    Dan McCarron
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    The way I like to transition to outdoors with my redtails is this:

    When I think they are ready, I do a normal training session indoors, but when I pick them up the last time I hood them and take them to the mews/weathering area where they are free lofted. The next day I go in, wait for the bird to calm down and follow the same basic approach as when they were indoors, approach, tidbit, back away until they are comfortable with that, then step to the glove, then hop. they are free in the mews until they are flying the length of teh mews with good response. The trick here is it is tough to weigh them as I don't restrain them at all until I am ready to take them outside, you need to pay really close attention to what they are eating and how they are responding. My favorite thing about this routine is if I screw up and the bird is too high to behave, I turn around and walk away and try again after a little while. There is no need to collect the bird as she in already 'away' as it were. Provided previous steps of manning and training indoors were done well this works very well for me.
    Jacob L'Etoile
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    Dan,

    Don't you seel your birds? If so, Dillon, would that be considered the type of negativity that you are suggesting we avoid, or no???

    Also, Dillon, would you please encapsulate the advantages of this approach over the traditional approach. Thanks.

    Bill Boni

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dillon View Post
    • Minimize bating and rehearsal of escape-avoidance behavior through the use of the hood, especially early on. When I first unhood a new passager, it is in a dim, quiet room with no commotion. Unfortunately, this tried and true advice of the masters of old has fallen to the wayside, and an increasing number of falconers are attempting to man their birds outside or with commotion right away.
    The goal is to get the bird eating as soon as possible. The sooner it is eating, the quicker the counterconditioning process can occur. Distractions won’t help here. If the bird is repeatedly bating or shows no interest in eating, it is re-hooded. Feeding can be attempted again in a few hours with smaller birds or those trapped in thinner condition, or the next day with large, robust hawks.
    My question is, why did this simple approach to manning fall out of favor here in the US? Is it because most folks start with redtails, and even if you man handle them you can still end up with an acceptable hunting partner? Or is because sponsors are ignorant, or don't give a crap? Or maybe because in order to do this, you need a proper fitting hood from the get go and most people wouldn't know a good fitting hood from bad? Look through the stacks of posts here on NAFEX of people with freshly trapped redtails, all unhooded leaning back, hackles up, mouths open and wings spread, it's almost too bad redtails are so forgiving, if they were a little more intolerant then I think people would be better falconers overall. My sponsor started out over 50 years ago with a Cooper's hawk, he's never flown a redtail, and he always starts a new bird in the dark. I'm not picking on anyone, if NAFEX were around when I started you would have seen my first redtail doing all of the things that I just described above. Live and learn...
    Paul Domski
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    Dan,

    Don't you seel your birds? If so, Dillon, would that be considered the type of negativity that you are suggesting we avoid, or no???

    Also, Dillon, would you please encapsulate the advantages of this approach over the traditional approach. Thanks.

    Bill Boni
    Hi Bill,

    I've never personally seeled a bird and like to avoid talking about it in a public forum because it's such a polarized topic. What I will say about it, however, is that I'm all for anything that minimizes negative experiences between the bird and the falconer, and seeling does this. Ed Pitcher sums it up pretty well in his book.

    I'll try and give a more concise, pro vs. con follow up on the advantages of this approach tomorrow when I have a bit more time...

    Thanks,
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    Default Thoughts on Manning, from a Behaviorism Perspective

    Excellent post Dillon - thanks for sharing.

    Gerry x
    Gerry Plant

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    Dan,

    Don't you seel your birds? If so, Dillon, would that be considered the type of negativity that you are suggesting we avoid, or no???

    Bill Boni
    Hi Bill:

    Yes, I seel my passage birds. It's not negative. If it was, even in the least, I would have never kept doing it all these years. I'm sure you and I have had this discussion several times over the years.

    However, if you would like to discuss it again privately I'd be happy to. But not here. I don't want to ruin Dillon's thread. I hope you understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dillon View Post
    Hi Bill,

    I've never personally seeled a bird and like to avoid talking about it in a public forum because it's such a polarized topic. What I will say about it, however, is that I'm all for anything that minimizes negative experiences between the bird and the falconer, and seeling does this. Ed Pitcher sums it up pretty well in his book.

    Thanks,
    I agree on seeling being a polarized topic. In addition to Pitcher, Ken Riddle discusses it in his book also.

    Best,
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    >I've never personally seeled a bird and like to avoid talking about it in a public forum because it's such a polarized topic. What I will say about it, however, is that I'm all for anything that minimizes negative experiences between the bird and the falconer, and seeling does this. Ed Pitcher sums it up pretty well in his book.

    Dillon, my comment was not directed at the process of seeling (to each their own). I was addressing it in relation to what you have written about the importance of non-negative experiences, particularly during the early stages; so, I do think the question has merit in terms of your well-defined position statement, but we'll let it go, as I am certainly not trying to provoke any sort of contest.

    Dan, the only reason I used you as a launching pad for my question was because you said you "hood" your passage birds, and, of course, I know that what you really meant to say was "seel."

    >I'll try and give a more concise, pro vs. con follow up on the advantages of this approach tomorrow when I have a bit more time...

    Great! I would like to read them.

    Bill Boni

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    Dan, the only reason I used you as a launching pad for my question was because you said you "hood" your passage birds, and, of course, I know that what you really meant to say was "seel."
    Bill Boni

    Hi Bill:

    With all due respect, that is not what I really meant to say. I know exactly what I said. I do hood my passage birds. Seeling is only a brief part of the process. The whole thing is a process.

    May I suggest you read the literature. I'd start with Pitcher's and Riddle's books.

    All my best,
    Dan McCarron
    John 3: 16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saluqi View Post
    My question is, why did this simple approach to manning fall out of favor here in the US? Is it because most folks start with redtails, and even if you man handle them you can still end up with an acceptable hunting partner? Or is because sponsors are ignorant, or don't give a crap? Or maybe because in order to do this, you need a proper fitting hood from the get go and most people wouldn't know a good fitting hood from bad? Look through the stacks of posts here on NAFEX of people with freshly trapped redtails, all unhooded leaning back, hackles up, mouths open and wings spread, it's almost too bad redtails are so forgiving, if they were a little more intolerant then I think people would be better falconers overall. My sponsor started out over 50 years ago with a Cooper's hawk, he's never flown a redtail, and he always starts a new bird in the dark. I'm not picking on anyone, if NAFEX were around when I started you would have seen my first redtail doing all of the things that I just described above. Live and learn...

    My sponsor taught me the hood and darkened room until eating way. My first two birds were trained this way. Hooded on a perch inside for as long as it took the bird to start eating. Then the bird was still hooded but had a radio or tv on low 24/7 during manning and training. Never outside in the mews until hunting.

    I will admit on my third bird I took the easy way and did the "flooding" approach. Everything at once, all at once. I personally did not like the results and will go back to the way I was taught.
    http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/videogame/mario.gif Mario Nickerson
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    Gary Brewer now uses a very similar approach when working with a new RT. He mentioned to me that he initially turns it loose in large mew and then brings food into it daily, placing it in the same location each day. He sits in there with the bird and it finally starts eating, usually quicker and quicker each day. Before too long the bird is waiting for his approach and will even come to the glove for it's food. Pretty amazing, really.

    My question is how might one be able to use this with a CB HH and would it help to control the potential for creating a screamer? Or could it exacerbate (sp?) it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joby View Post
    My question is how might one be able to use this with a CB HH and would it help to control the potential for creating a screamer? Or could it exacerbate (sp?) it?
    I treated my HH no different really then I would a fresh trapped RT.
    http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/videogame/mario.gif Mario Nickerson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saluqi View Post
    My question is, why did this simple approach to manning fall out of favor here in the US? Is it because most folks start with redtails, and even if you man handle them you can still end up with an acceptable hunting partner? Or is because sponsors are ignorant, or don't give a crap? Or maybe because in order to do this, you need a proper fitting hood from the get go and most people wouldn't know a good fitting hood from bad? Look through the stacks of posts here on NAFEX of people with freshly trapped redtails, all unhooded leaning back, hackles up, mouths open and wings spread, it's almost too bad redtails are so forgiving, if they were a little more intolerant then I think people would be better falconers overall. My sponsor started out over 50 years ago with a Cooper's hawk, he's never flown a redtail, and he always starts a new bird in the dark. I'm not picking on anyone, if NAFEX were around when I started you would have seen my first redtail doing all of the things that I just described above. Live and learn...
    Dillon's description of manning a passage falcon or goshawk is the method I have used with minor differences and I learned it from the old falconry books. It is also the reason I have stated with a lot of disagreement that red tails are not the best beginners bird as they tend to get the novice off on the wrong foot.
    I'm a perfect example of that, having trapped and trained probably half dozen passage RT's before my first passage falcon. I was lost with her, but not all lost, I had to do some quick back studying. Luckily I didn't ruin her because I was keeping her hooded all the time except when working with her on the fist or coming to the lure. Fortunately I was doing the right thing as I came to learn with subsequent passage birds.
    One thing from my experience with prairie falcons that kind of goes against tradition is they seem pretty anxious in a dimly lit room as opposed to other falcons that have been reported to be calmer. I think prairies may have learned that their biggest threats will come at night rather than in full daylight. I recently bought a strobe light but so far I haven't had call to try it, but I'm eager to check it out.
    Tom Smith, Sometimes, someone unexpected comes into your life out of nowhere, makes your heart race, and changes you forever. We call those people cops.

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    This is a very interesting post. There are some things on here I can try. I have had great success with the traditional way. However after reading some things here, I can see trying some other methods. One thing a lot of people do, is rush in full speed on your newly trapped bird. They have to believe they are going to die. They do remember your face. One can walk in on them slowly. They panic and struggle less. Some birds will stand up on a pigeon or the net and face you down. Usually as you get low and close, most fall over and watch, ready to foot you. First impression. I do believe one needs to be picky with passage Prairies. I do cut my down quickly and only handle them when they are hungry. The better they act, the sooner the hood is off more. I freefly most birds within two weeks, dropping their weight hard, but then raising it quickly also. I have raised some birds weight, and left the free in a room only approaching them while they were feeding until they wouldn't let me approach them closer. It took quite a bit longer to fly these birds. I do develop relationships with my birds, as I want them to be part of the team. Passage birds when cut very low get very nervous, and tend to resort to doing what will save their life. They do seem to calm down quite quicky once free flying. We fly birds for enjoyment, so if a bird is quite difficult and doesn't want to accept captivity, it is easier for all if that bird is put back in its natural environment. Like was pointed out, the birds respond better, have more open minds when they have active minds learning. Every training day, do something different. How does some of this training work with eyass? Most people get a chamber raised bird where the bird is netted or grabbed with gloves out of the chamber. I really need help with chamber raised birds. They are more difficult to me than passage birds. I hack my eyas, so no restraints for a long time. Do you do the same with Chamber raised birds as passage birds?
    Rick

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    >It’s the old nature versus nurture argument, and to put it in a different perspective, consider the following: If your child was having difficulty with spelling or math, would you rather have his or her teacher adopt a “nature” approach—that is, the child is just not naturally gifted, so is not worth the effort of teaching—or the nurturing approach which contends that with the right approach, the child can not only learn these skills, but excel at them?

    Dillon, this example is way too anthropomorphic. Of course we would prefer the nurturing approach, but there is a vast difference between a child having difficulty with spelling or math and a hawk trying to make sense out of captivity. And, as you know, having obviously read the nature versus nurture debate, the “nurture” in this argument refers to humans, specifically childern during the developmental stage. Again, we are talking apples and oranges.


    Bill Boni
    This is an apt analogy. There is a vast amount of factual, repeatable, empirical evidence concluding that we humans differ from one and other in our ability to do stuff. Everyone is familiar with the graphical representation of the range of human abilities in the form of a bell curve. In math (to use one of Dillon’s examples), about half of us perform at a below-average level. About half perform above average. Regardless of the “approach” employed in teaching children math, half of them will never achieve an “average” level of performance. Are we to believe that similar ability bell curves do not apply to individual members of species other than humans? I think not.

    Now, I’m being kind of nit-picky here about what is probably a minor point in the discussion. But it leads up to this: I tend to think that Dillon might be nearly correct when he contends “…any … raptor can be trained to take game, respond well in the field, and otherwise be well-adjusted in captivity.” (Although I doubt such a contention could ever be proven and I will excuse, for now, the tabula rasa nonsense). But where does that level of performance fall on the bell curve of raptor-for-falconry ability?

    For me, it falls well below the minimum level of acceptable performance. Am I then, as Dillon suggests, a less “accomplished” gamehawker because I “blame” and reject some birds? Am I missing out on some “life-long learning” because of a belief that some birds are not suited to be falconry companions?

    I would argue that the excellent manning techniques detailed by Dillon in his OP will naturally occur to reasonably-minded falconers as they gain experience in terms of time and number of birds trained. Even if they do lean more toward the “nature” side of the biological scale.

    Thanks to Dillon for starting this stimulating and thought-provoking topic.
    Jeff

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    Default First bite

    I really am enjoying this discussion. Thank you Dillon. I cannot wait to try some of it on my next PFRT.

    Here is my question. What kind of different approaches are out there to get your hawk to make that first leap of faith and take the first bite?

    I have only trained four birds so far, but I used the same technique each time. I have the hawk sit inside the house on his perch and present him/her with a juicy piece of meat.
    One variable I changed was the size of the meat. I found that if I make it a bigger piece the hawk has a harder time to ignore it.
    Another variable I guess was that I placed the meat on my fist while the bird was hooded. Once un-hooded I let him see it and go for it.

    Any input on this will be appreciated. Obviously my approach worked, but that does not mean that there is not a better one involving Dillon's approach of manning a bird.
    Axel, Texas
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    Default Off season

    Both of my MHH are put up for the season. Keeping Dillon's concept in mind, how do you feed your hawks/falcons during the off-season?
    Do you just toss the food in the mew/WY or do you take them out and make them work for it?
    Axel, Texas
    God is great, beer is good and people are crazy!!!

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    Whoa boy, I'm going to try my best to keep up with this topic. If I don't reply for a day or so, I'll catch up.

    Bill, I'm going to try to address your post without cluttering it up by directly quoting you. Also, I'm trying to be as concise as possible, so please don't read any of this as being purposefully disrespectful-- on the contrary, I have an enormous amount of respect for you, based on your book. Online debates tend to take insidious turns for the worst, even with the best intentions. Here we go:

    First, I guess I should've qualified that by "tabula rassa," I was referring to having never been in captivity before. Yes, some passage birds will have individual quirks, but not like a hand-me-down that's been manhandled. Passage hawks have very little negative experiences with people, so although their prey preference and hunting tactics will vary with experience, I don't believe it has anything to do with general tameness level. In fact, it's my experience that passage birds tend to tame quicker than their chamber-raised counterparts, but that's a different topic I have no desire to start right now.

    Second, this is a new thread that was splintered from another, and in that original thread I did say that I agree that there are some birds not worth training. I've had birds that were mediocre when it came to gamehawking, but nothing I would consider "not good candidates for captivity." As an aside, I'm not nearly as accomplished as some on here in regards to specialization of certain species, but I've trained hundreds of raptors for falconry, abatement, and shows of all species commonly (and uncommonly) held in captivity. In addition to that, I've trained hundreds of other birds for free flight shows (corvids, hornbills, cranes, parrots of all types, storks, on and on), and as a behavior consultant at over a dozen zoos, have helped keepers train just about every animal held in captivity. I point this out only in case you were skeptical of my experience base. So, yes, some falconry birds won't be stellar because of their genetic predisposition, but I argue that with the correct approach, they can all adjust well to captivity. We'll have to agree to disagree, for reasons I'll elaborate on below.

    Third, Harry isn't quoted as saying that "only ten percent of hawks are worth hanging onto;" he says that there are a top ten percent that make up the best of the best performers, and that a falconer is lucky to fly one or two of these individuals during their entire falconry career.

    To address your anthropomorphic comment-- yes, you will see that I admitted it was in my original post, and I also mentioned that comparing a child to a hawk obviously doesn't hold the same value. Anthropomorphism serves only to help us get in touch with how we "feel" about something, and I used the example to illustrate that. I prefer oranges over apples. How about them apples?

    Also, along those lines, the nature vs. nurture argument doesn't just apply to children. There have been numerous studies done on non-human primates and dogs on this subject. Most of what we theorize about in human psychology has come directly from behaviorism lab experiments with animals. You'd hate Watson, I'm sure, but I'm in his camp. I'm sure you know about the "Little Albert" experiments?

    All behavior is modifiable. It might not be worth it in the eyes of some, but to make blanket statements on this subject is simple ignorance. Amazing things have been done with desensitization processes, counterconditioning, response blocking, etc., in human animals that are far more complex than our birds.

    At the end of the day, I'll never blame an animal for behaving the way it does if I am the one who has brought it into captivity. It's a cop out. It's one thing to come to the conclusion that, after countless slips, a certain falcon just isn't that good at catching, say, grouse. Some falconers will stick with it, some will choose to move on. That's never what I argued about (Chindgren, BTW, said that his famous falcon Jomo was horrible in his first few seasons-- in stark contrast to B.B. and Kalakak, who were natural performers-- and Jomo went on to hold his legendary status). I started this because the prairie falcon mentioned in the original thread barely made it to the free-flight stage, and the consensus was that the bird just sucked. I won't accept that. What I want others to recognize is that mistakes are just an opportunity to start again with more information for success, and that the lack of success with this bird was still extremely valuable to the falconer-- should he focus on what he learned instead of choosing to blame the bird for simply not being good in captivity and destined to fail in falconry.

    I'll address questions asked by others in a bit, and will address seeling (am I a masochist, or what?)

    Gotta run!







    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    Hi Dillon,

    You write:

    >Most falconry literature mentions that occasionally—despite a falconer’s best efforts—individual birds will not work out for use in falconry. These birds never tame down, these authors contend, and will not respond to glove, lure, or even game without weight being cut to the bone. Many falconers also believe that the traits of a bird are largely inborn rather than learned or cultivated, and that there are a percentage of birds (especially wild eyasses that lack a pedigree) that are destined to fail due to genetic fate.

    This is a complex statement, Dillon. I can only speak for myself and say that having trained a ton of passage hawks I can categorically say, without hesitation, that there are birds that are not good candidates for captivity, and it really has nothing to do with the falconer. They are just difficult birds. Passage hawks are not tabula rasa birds, as you suggest, as they all have their quirks, with some having more than others. They might be trainable, as you say, but they are more trouble than they are worth (IMHO). And those that have not experienced birds of this nature, have not trained enough birds, as they truly do exist. You mentioned Harry McElroy, he is a big believer that only ten percent of hawks are worth hanging on to.

    >It’s the old nature versus nurture argument, and to put it in a different perspective, consider the following: If your child was having difficulty with spelling or math, would you rather have his or her teacher adopt a “nature” approach—that is, the child is just not naturally gifted, so is not worth the effort of teaching—or the nurturing approach which contends that with the right approach, the child can not only learn these skills, but excel at them?

    Dillon, this example is way too anthropomorphic. Of course we would prefer the nurturing approach, but there is a vast difference between a child having difficulty with spelling or math and a hawk trying to make sense out of captivity. And, as you know, having obviously read the nature versus nurture debate, the “nurture” in this argument refers to humans, specifically childern during the developmental stage. Again, we are talking apples and oranges.

    >Why is it that a falconer who makes mistakes along the journey of raising an imprint is forced to publicly accept the consequences of mistakes during the raising process, yet those dealing with passagers or chamber-raised individuals are permitted to wantonly disregard potential mistakes or incongruent techniques, and instead place the blame on the animal?

    Because those dealing with imprints are, in fact, very involved with the “nurturing” aspect which, of course, has a profound effect on how birds turn out, while this is not the case with the older birds.

    >Aside from exponentially increasing the chances that the bird will be successful, this philosophy also fosters an environment conducive to life-long learning, in which the falconer will only become more analytical, self-critical, and ultimately a more accomplished gamehawker.

    I, definitely, agree with what you say here as it pertains to imprints. To be successful with these birds you have to maximize your potential in all the areas you have identified above, which is why I don't mess with imprints--I just don't feel I have the ability, nor the desire, to do them justice.

    I'll quit here until I have an opportunity to read the benefits of your training method over the traditional method.

    Bill Boni
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    >Bill, I'm going to try to address your post without cluttering it up by directly quoting you. Also, I'm trying to be as concise as possible, so please don't read any of this as being purposefully disrespectful-- on the contrary, I have an enormous amount of respect for you, based on your book. Online debates tend to take insidious turns for the worst, even with the best intentions.

    Dillion, my very best falconer friend is Harry McElroy, and me and Harry have had some disagreements over the years, but he is still my very best friend. So, I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. What I detest is when that disagreement is based upon personal feelings about someone, which happens quite often in the falconry community, unfortunately.

    Speaking of Harry, you are absolutely right, he was speaking of the most desireable birds. And, as we all know, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, so Harry's view of the top ten percent might be different from mine or yours. The point I was trying to make was that, when it comes to nature versus nurture, Harry is solidly on the Nature side of the house, as it pertains to wild-caught hawks. And, frankly, he may feel the same way about imprints as well; in other words, he may feel that nature is a more powerful determiner of behavior than nurture.

    >I point this out only in case you were skeptical of my experience base. So, yes, some falconry birds won't be stellar because of their genetic predisposition, but I argue that with the correct approach, they can all adjust well to captivity. We'll have to agree to disagree, for reasons I'll elaborate on below.

    I was not skeptical of your experience base, but I am glad you pointed this out for the sake of others. And, yes, we will very definitely have to agree to disagree on this point; in fact, I feel so strongly about this that I am surprised that someone with your experience would take this position.

    In terms of Watson, if you are talking about his suggestion that there is no distinction between humans and other animals when it comes to behavior, yes, I would have to agree with you. But, keep in mind that most of his studies and writing revolved around children, not animals, including, of course, "Little Albert."

    >I started this because the prairie falcon mentioned in the original thread barely made it to the free-flight stage, and the consensus was that the bird just sucked. I won't accept that. What I want others to recognize is that mistakes are just an opportunity to start again with more information for success, and that the lack of success with this bird was still extremely valuable to the falconer-- should he focus on what he learned instead of choosing to blame the bird for simply not being good in captivity and destined to fail in falconry.

    I wasn't part of that original thread, so I don't have all the facts, but, I will say that you are right suggesting that we learn from our experiences with these birds; however, I don't "blame" a hawk that I feel is not worth the effort, and I don't know that other people do either. Some of us just have limitations, and there is nothing wrong with that, at all (IMO). I remember a conversation I had with Tom Coulson years ago. We were talking about the passage Cooper's hawk, and as I recall the conversation, Tom could not understand why people would mess with the demands of this little hawk when they could fly a HH with a lot less effort. For Tom falconry was about enjoying yourself as much as possible; it's hard to argue against that logic. In fact, I have written an article about this topic to be published in the August Hawk Chalk. I hope you will read it.

    Please don't forget to share with us the advantages of your training method over the "traditional" method. Thanks.

    Bill Boni

  35. #35
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    I have a couple of questions, for anyone who feels like answering. But first an observation. I think some of the participants in this conversation might be talking across each other. There seems to be a slight misunderstanding about the phrase 'unsuitable for captivity' Some seem to feel this means a bird cannot be maintained in captivity, with no further criteria, others seem to add an implied 'in a falconry setting' to the phrase. I think it is completely reasonable to say that any wild raptor can be kept successfully in captivity, while also saying that some hawks of species commonly used for falconry are not really suitable to be kept for falconry. Having said that here is my question: Does it matter? Is there a correlation between birds that train well using a particular method, and ones that work out in a falconry setting? If there is a correlation between a particular method or philosophy and a higher percentage of suitable game hawks then it makes sense to use that philosophy, regardless of how many hawks it doesn't work for. Conversely if there is no correlation between philosophy and falconry success it makes sense to adhere to a philosophy that turns out the highest percentage of hawks that do well in captivity, then their suitability for falconry can be evaluated separately. I am especially interested in hearing from people who have undergone a change of philosophy in their manning and training of hawks but feel they were as good at implementing their old philosophy as they are at implementing their new philosophy.
    Jacob L'Etoile
    Western MA

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