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Thread: Thoughts on Manning, from a Behaviorism Perspective

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    Default Thoughts on Manning, from a Behaviorism Perspective

    Okay, so here's a rough, unedited draft of some thoughts on manning I put together today. There are likely some grammatical errors and things that could be better-worded, but this is a start. I'm happy to start a dialogue with anyone who has any questions about this, as some concepts are complicated. For the sake of time, simplicity, and length, I haven't provided definitions for all of the jargon, so you'll have to google them if you're interested in learning more, or I can explain later on.

    Cheers.


    PHILOSOPHY

    Most falconry literature mentions that occasionally—despite a falconer’s best efforts—individual birds will not work out for use in falconry. These birds never tame down, these authors contend, and will not respond to glove, lure, or even game without weight being cut to the bone. Many falconers also believe that the traits of a bird are largely inborn rather than learned or cultivated, and that there are a percentage of birds (especially wild eyasses that lack a pedigree) that are destined to fail due to genetic fate.
    While there is no doubt that genetics do certainly play a role when it comes to gifted performers, a bird’s physical build, or an unusual level of natural tameness, I contend that with the right early interactions with the falconer, any tabula rasa raptor can be trained to take game, respond well in the field, and otherwise be well-adjusted in captivity. Even if the reader vehemently disagrees with this notion, it behooves him or her to not at least practice a working empiricist’s approach despite his misgivings, as the alternative effectively seals the fate of the falconers’ charge and suppresses the quest for novel approaches that might work where more orthodox approaches fail. It’s the old nature versus nurture argument, and to put it in a different perspective, consider the following: If your child was having difficulty with spelling or math, would you rather have his or her teacher adopt a “nature” approach—that is, the child is just not naturally gifted, so is not worth the effort of teaching—or the nurturing approach which contends that with the right approach, the child can not only learn these skills, but excel at them?
    Granted, raising children and training falconry birds don’t exactly harbor the same gravity, but making the mental leap of the empiricist prevents the falconer from prematurely damning his charge. Why is it that a falconer who makes mistakes along the journey of raising an imprint is forced to publicly accept the consequences of mistakes during the raising process, yet those dealing with passagers or chamber-raised individuals are permitted to wantonly disregard potential mistakes or incongruent techniques, and instead place the blame on the animal?
    Aside from exponentially increasing the chances that the bird will be successful, this philosophy also fosters an environment conducive to life-long learning, in which the falconer will only become more analytical, self-critical, and ultimately a more accomplished gamehawker.

    OPERANT CONDITIONING

    This is an important point: a falconer cannot “choose” whether or not to use operant conditioning; it is innate and omnipresent in every single minute of every single day of every single animal. Like gravity, its laws and theories hold true even if one doesn’t understand or accept it. To successfully fly a plane, it’s helpful to have a working knowledge on how gravity works, and to fly a hawk, it’s helpful to familiarize oneself with Behaviorism, respondent behavior (Operant Conditioning), and reflexive behavior (Classical Conditioning).

    A Quick Overview of Traditional Training Methods From A Behaviorism Perspective

    Traditional manning techniques rely on a combination of several passive conditioning techniques that fall under Classical Conditioning, simultaneously paired with respondent behavior conditioning. Early on, when the bird is first unhooded and the jesses are restrained, the falconer is relying on the effects of negative reinforcement. As the bird bates it is restrained by the jesses; the consequences of hanging upside down and the pressure on the legs (negative reinforcement) increases the likelihood of sitting on the glove. Think about the beeping alarm when a car is started and the seatbelt is not fastened: the beeping conditions the driver to buckle the seatbelt in order to remove the aversive stimulus of the beep. In the same manner, the hanging upside down and pressure on the legs is relieved as the bird regains the fist or is placed on the fist with the help of the falconer.
    In conjunction with the negative reinforcement conditioning, the classical conditioning phenomenon known as short term habituation begins to take hold. Think of someone popping a balloon behind your back unexpectedly—at first, a reflexive startle response occurs, but if another balloon is popped shortly afterwards, the reflex no longer happens, or the response is weakened.
    So, the negative reinforcement of the jesses increases the likelihood of the hawk remaining on the glove (or inversely, punishes bating and decreases the bating behavior), and short-term habituation places a temporary decrease in reflexive startle responses. What the falconer hopes to accomplish, if these effects do indeed occur, is to begin pairing positive reinforcement with the behavior of sitting on the glove in proximity to a human. This is called counterconditioning—a stimulus that once associated with an aversive (the human) becomes associated with a positive stimulus (food). Weight is dropped, which increases the value of the primary reinforce (food). More time is spent with the bird, either on the glove or on an indoor perch, and this solidifies the process of long-term habituation. The net gain of this is what we as falconers refer to as the degree in which the bird is manned.
    The other traditional taming technique that falconers use is “waking.” A hawk is “waked” by different means, based on local tradition. In medieval Europe, a succession of handlers restrained the bird in shifts for three days or more, constantly exposing the hawk to unnerving stimuli and depriving it of sleep; in Pakistan and Afghanistan, hawks were casted, the tail wrapped, and were placed in cages in bustling coffee shops or marketplaces. These are attempts at flooding (response blocking), and there are tinges of learned helplessness that begin to creep in. Flooding can be thought of as an animal permanently becoming habituated to certain stimuli by exposing the hawk to inescapable aversive stimuli until it no longer elicits a response. That is, things that once elicited an escape-avoidance response now elicit no response at all. Keep in mind, however, that in learned helplessness and flooding experiments in the lab, most, but not all animals responded to such conditioning. This will be important later.
    Most raptors eventually come around to these methods, but there are some potential pitfalls. These pitfalls don’t often cause major unwanted behavioral conditioning in the majority of birds, but they are, I believe, exactly what cause the more sensitive individuals to become maladapted to falconry.

    UNEXPECTED PITFALLS ENCOUNTERED IN TRADITIONAL FALCONRY MANNING


    The most important thing a falconer can learn about operant conditioning is that the use of aversives in training (negative reinforcement, punishment) tend to cause side effects. These negative side effects include increases escape-avoidance behavior, increased aggression, apathy, generalized fear, and much more. The science is there and proves this.
    Next, remember short-term and long-term habituation? Animals tend to habituate to stimuli that are irrelevant or insignificant, for obvious evolutionary reasons. However, animals tend to sensitize to stimuli that are relevant or dangerous in some way. Think of a soldier that slowly becomes habituated to the constant sound of bombs and gunfire far in the distance. It makes sense for the brain to stop reacting to these relatively insignificant sounds. Now picture the soldier when an artillery shell explodes close by, or gunfire erupts in the vicinity—the response is immediate, serious, and for survival. The more times a soldier reacts to these immediate dangers and survives, the more ingrained the particular behavior becomes. By contrast, if a soldier habituated to nearby bombs and gunfire, they would be removed from the gene pool in short order.
    Now, consider the soldier who returns home and is affected by Post Traumatic Stress (PTS). What occurs here is the sensitization response has generalized to similar stimuli. For instance, the slam of a car door can elicit a similar response to the behavior exhibited when a mortar exploded in the battlefield. Not all soldiers develop PTS.
    Let’s relate all this to our hawks. Remember that animals tend to sensitize to stimuli that are relevant or dangerous? Well, to a wild hawk, what is more “relevant or dangerous” than being fettered to a giant predator, 100 times their size? The biggest mistake a falconer can make is to force a fat, wild hawk to sit on the glove in an attempt to habituate it to people. Even worse are those falconers who insist on manning hawks fresh off the trap outdoors or tether a new hawk to a bow perch. It doesn’t make much of a difference whether or not the hawk is bating itself silly, flaring its wings in “dragon mode,” or in shock and frozen to the perch—the falconer is still running a risk of sensitizing the hawk to humans.
    One of the greatest falconry quotes I’ve ever read (I think it was Martin Hollinshead) was that “bating doesn’t make a hawk tamer, it makes it wilder.” This is a falconer who intuitively understands the potential of sensitizing his birds to him. In addition, rehearsing any behavior over and over tends to make it a habit (Guthrie’s Theory), and behavior that leads to survival during times of stress tends to be repeated. Picture our soldier responding to close explosions by hitting the deck and finding cover; if he survives, this it is likely this behavior will be repeated. In the exact same fashion, let’s picture a hawk that bates when the falconer approaches to pick it up from the perch, or a bird that bates and hangs upside down when it is being tethered. Because it survived this “relevant or dangerous” experience by rehearsing this behavior, it will likely become quickly conditioned. Picture our soldier who developed PTS, and imagine how easily fear, escape behaviors, and aggression can become generalized and more prevalent with hawks.
    I’ve seen plenty of hawks that—even after years in captivity—still bate away from the falconer and the hood. I’ve seen plenty of hawks that have poor field control or won’t work with the falconer, even though they are very sharp. In my estimation, these are the hawks that don’t tend to become conditioned to learned helplessness or flooding phenomena, and are more likely to sensitize to their experience in captivity unless the utmost care is taken. Not surprisingly, there are a disproportionate number of prairie falcons, cooper’s hawks, and goshawks that don’t work out. Also, not surprisingly, these are the species that have been subjected to the more extreme manning techniques of flooding in stark contrast to the more congenial peregrines, merlins, Harris’ hawks, etc.

    BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS BASED ON REPETITION OF POSTIVE EXPERIENCES

    Early in my falconry career, I would rack my brain trying to figure out what the best “recipe” was for anti-carrying conditioning, how to best train a hawk to hood, how to step off a kill—and—how to man a hawk. What I realize now is that there are no recipes—it’s all about minimizing negative experiences as much as possible and giving as much control to the hawk as possible, as early as possible. There is no way to force or coerce a hawk into becoming a falconer’s hunting partner; it must make that decision on its own. Building this relationship is where I believe the art in falconry truly lies, as a tame, well-adjusted bird chooses and appreciates living in captivity and hunting with the falconer. Below are some thoughts that drastically decrease the percentage of birds that won’t work out for falconry.
    • Minimize bating and rehearsal of escape-avoidance behavior through the use of the hood, especially early on. When I first unhood a new passager, it is in a dim, quiet room with no commotion. Unfortunately, this tried and true advice of the masters of old has fallen to the wayside, and an increasing number of falconers are attempting to man their birds outside or with commotion right away.
    The goal is to get the bird eating as soon as possible. The sooner it is eating, the quicker the counterconditioning process can occur. Distractions won’t help here. If the bird is repeatedly bating or shows no interest in eating, it is re-hooded. Feeding can be attempted again in a few hours with smaller birds or those trapped in thinner condition, or the next day with large, robust hawks.
    • Once the bird is eating, use washed meat to increase the amount of positive time spent with the hawk without putting on weight. The lowest weight my hawks will ever be at is when they are first learning to jump to the glove and are flying the creance. This minimizes fear and minimizes any negative experience such as the bird flying off and checked on creance, bating, etc.

    • Hawks should be kept hooded at all times except training until they begin hopping to the glove. After this, they can be tethered to an indoor perch (preferably off the ground), and offered tidbits/ stepped up throughout the day to condition them to the approach.

    • No “manning” on the glove. Unless the bird is eating or being actively trained, it is never walked around bare-headed on the glove. This minimizes any bating that can occur and slants the relationship towards heavy association of positive experiences and minimal negative experiences. Habituation is achieved with the indoor perch.

    • Make sure the hawk is 100% reliable stepping up indoors and is hopping to the glove outside before transitioning to the outdoor weathering. Transition to outdoors slowly.

    • Make sure the bird is 100% reliable stepping up outdoors without bating before moving on to the creance.

    • Make sure response to the lure is instant, and introduce the live lure (if that jells with your ethics). With passage falcons, I find it easier to introduce the live lure, then use a frozen pigeon or quail, and gradually move to a leather lure in time.

    • Spend as little time on the creance as possible. This is the age of telemetry—it’s worth the risk. What this will do is minimize the chances of negative experiences associated with the inherent restraint. It will also allow the falconer to exploit the passager’s predisposition to fly wide and high the first few times it is free flown. Toss a bagged pigeon on the second free flight when the bird is a half mile out, and it will learn to eat up the sky without the kite.

    • Finally, and most importantly, give the hawk as much countercontrol over its environment as possible. Modern behaviorists cite strong evidence that an animal’s innate desire to control its environment actually meets the criteria of a primary reinforcer (food, water, shelter, and sex). Abberant behavior, neurotic behavior, and depression in animals all stems from one cause: lack of control over one’s environment, or the perception of this.

    The best way to get a wild hawk used to traffic, trains, people in the field, or anything else that might cause a nervous reaction is to give the bird power to escape. Don’t hold the jesses—even with food. Let go of the bird. Most often the fear response to strange stimuli is exacerbated by the fact that the bird knows that it cannot escape. Let go of the jesses and watch the confidence of the bird (and response to the glove and lure) grow.
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    Great post Dillon!!! I especially like the last section. The strobe technique I and others have mentioned goes hand in hand with what you wrote. This thread should be a good one for all. Especially anyone new to the sport! Should get them off on the right foot. In the end all of this about whats best for the birds. I'll contribute more when my 4 year old daughter gives daddy a break LOL!
    Jeremy Roselle

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    Interesting read!

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    Very interesting Dillon. Some of what you say, I have done the opposite and will try what you have said with my next bird.

    Two questions:

    1. "Transition to outdoors slowly". What are your steps for this?

    2. "Finally, and most importantly, give the hawk as much countercontrol over its environment as possible". I am not sure what you are talking about here. Can you give examples or explain this in more detail?
    Fred
    "Adopt the pace of nature: her secret is patience." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    I love this Dillon, thanks! Well written indeed.

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    Dillon:

    Thank you for taking the time to organize and share your thoughts on this subject.

    I participate on this forum because I enjoy reading about falconry and what others have to share. That being said, as we all know, posts come in all sizes and flavors and offer a wide range in the value they offer to the reader.

    From my perspective, I would rank this post in the top 1% of the posts I've read on this site.

    Looking forward to following this thread and any future threads you might start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredFogg View Post
    Very interesting Dillon. Some of what you say, I have done the opposite and will try what you have said with my next bird.

    Two questions:

    1. "Transition to outdoors slowly". What are your steps for this?

    2. "Finally, and most importantly, give the hawk as much countercontrol over its environment as possible". I am not sure what you are talking about here. Can you give examples or explain this in more detail?
    Hi Fred,

    To transition outdoors, I usually start weathering the bird hooded outdoors for a few days. Most hoods aren't completely light-tight, IMO, and the hawk can feel the breeze, sun, and hear (albeit muffled) the same things they will later. On the day I will tie them to the block in the weathering yard, I pick them up from the indoor perch (shelf, pole, or "taming box"), hood, weigh, and tether outside for 15-20 minutes, as has been the routine the bird knows. Then, instead of picking up for a formal training session, I pick the bird back up, while still tethered to the block, unhood, and hand a tidbit. Then I step them off to the perch, hand them another tidbit to get them focused on food instead of bating. At this point-- and this goes against the intuition of many-- I hand them a tyring like a quail wing or pigeon wing, and let them start picking at it on the perch. Then I hand another tidbit while they're working on the tyring. I walk away, let the bird tear at the tyring for a few minutes, then approach and tidbit again. This keeps the bird occupied the entire time. I end by stepping the bird up, hooding, doing the formal training session, and then it spends the night in the house again. The next day, I repeat this same process, but I leave the bird to its own devices for 15-20 minutes, then do some tidbit reps, step up, and fly. I gradually increase the time spent bareheaded until they are being weathered all day long outside.

    A couple points I follow: First, I never start this process close to dusk or first thing in the morning. I find that in the morning the bird knows it has the entire day ahead of it and will be very batey. Near dusk they'll want to roost and will bate a lot. Best to do it an hour or two before dusk, and gradually increase the time to earlier in the day, if your schedule allows it. If the weather is warm, as it often is here in AZ, I also wet down the bird with a spray bottle-- this curtails bating, and the bird will dry (out here, anyway) by the time we're ready to train.

    Second, I'm really particular on the setup of a weathering yard. I've found that the best setup is one where there is a solid back so that the hawk feels somewhat secure, and the sides and front open, with as wide of a view as possible. A more enclosed weathering can work well for some of the more wild birds (I've used shade cloth temporarily), but I've found most bating occurs because the bird wants to get out of the claustrophobic environment that many weathering yards are, or they're simple thrown to the fire and given no transition time. With a more calculated approach, as outlined above, I haven't had many issues. The main thing to avoid is scooping the bird up from the perch outside if it gets a bit wild. Worst case scenario if I really screwed up and overestimated the bird's confidence, which I've done before, I'll sit near the bird, as this seems to reduce bating, and try my best to crawl in with a big piece of juicy meat and step it from the perch that way. Usually, more time spent tidbitting on the perch or a tad bit more temporary weight reduction solves this right quick. Make the mistake of scooping a bird up while it's bating away just once or twice, and it's easy for this behavior to become ingrained.

    2. Countercontrol. There have been many studies done with monkeys on this subject. In one study, a group of macaques were given food, water, toys, etc. on an ad-lib basis, for free. They were just thrown in the cage. The second group were trained to pull a rope in order to get these items. The second group of macaques were not only more active and displayed more signs of well-being, they were also far more resistant to developing a fear response of a wind-up toy monster that was introduced to both groups later on. Simply having the power in their environment to perform a behavior and earn consistent rewards gave them generalized confidence.

    This isn't falconry, but it's a good example: I recently did a film project with some hawks in which they had to be trained to fly to me, harnessed in the back of a pickup truck going about 30 mph. Some approaches might be to feed the bird, get nearer and nearer, begin feeding the bird in the bed with the engine running, etc. You can imagine the steps thereafter. Rather than do that, I just performed repetitions flying to the glove for tidbits with me in the back of the truck and it already running. The birds would make a few passes over the glove at first, but then finally landed, ate the tidbit, and promptly took off. With each repetition, however, the flee response weakened. The birds were following the truck the very next day, happily sitting the glove with no anklets or equipment by their own volition. They simply new they had the power to escape if things got dangerous. Birds that are given this power early on seem to take life in stride and have a generalized confidence to everything new. Birds that are jessed and forced to be exposed to "scary" things tend to have just the opposite-- they have a generalized sensitization response and bate/ fly away from everything, from the stray dog in the field to the new hat the falconer just bought and wore for the first time.

    More to come.
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    I like this thread, it goes right along with what i've used on my current gos to make progress with what i've thought is a difficult bird in the past. A lot of this also parallel's what I used for my coops last fall.

    Just a couple quick thoughts/short summaries:
    -Don't mess with a new bird just because you have it. The bird should be worked with in sessions and when hungry. I've only ever attempted waking with 1 bird and didn't see the gains over avoiding negativity and short positive sessions. I've never been a fan of starvation, better to keep their metabolism going and rely on hunger not weight.

    -The countercountrol is very powerful. This is probably the primary tool that has allowed me to make more and more progress with my gos. Approaching him until he becomes uncomfortable, CR or CR/tidbit and retreat gives him control of me. Almost totally removed his anxiety at approach within a couple days and proved to be an extremely useful tool for salvaging situations that were problematic/falling apart in the field. It's really important if you start using this to ALWAYS honor their cues and be conscious of them.

    Edit: Layman has used the hawk whispering for a long time, that's what i'm doing. I see it as a form of the countercontrol that is extended to the falconer and flexible outside the mews.
    -Jeff
    "You live more for five minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life." --Marco Simoncelli

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    Great thoughts, as always, Jeremy.

    One of the dividing lines between falconers is always weight control. What I respect about Jeremy and others here is their desire to fly their birds as heavy as possible. One of the biggest benefits of giving a falconry bird countercontrol (power over its environment) is that they can be flown at extremely high weights. This is simply because the falconer hasn't become a cue (discriminative stimulus) for punishment/ negative reinforcement. The bird hasn't had the jesses grabbed and hasn't been forced to do things, so those things don't weigh in in the bird's decision making process (a bit anthropomorphic, I know). When the falconer uses traditional training, the falconer often has to negate all of these negative experiences with more weight control. Hungrier birds are more prone to mantle, foot the falconer, scream, and they also won't have the muscle or energy that their heavier counterparts have. When the weight of these birds is increased, their field response goes down the toilet and they begin looking at the horizon, weighing other options.

    One more thing I thought I'd add is that even though I've tried to explain some of the science behind these techniques, they're certainly not my ideas. The way I do things has been influenced largely by the writings of falconers like Ed Pitcher, Ken Tuttle, and Harry McElroy. Harry was using the free-flight system earlier than almost anyone, and there's no coincidence that he's had such success with difficult birds like cooper's hawks. The magic in his method is the inherent lack of restraint.
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    Great post
    Sean T

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    Thanks for the positive feedback, guys! I'll try to follow up on this thread today during my lunch hour.
    Dillon Horger
    Pennsylvania

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    Hi Dillon,
    Great post! One of the few posts with real substance. Like Jeremy, I too appreciate your last section, very succienct. Thank you for putting into words the practices that have worked so well for me. I especially like the bit about griving the bird control of it's enviorment. I've seen how well birds settle down and begin to trust when they have the freedom to make choices. It opens the door for a deep bond to develop that goes beyond food.
    My best to you.
    Keith

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    Great Post!!!! makes me more excited for the upcoming trapping season. I to have seen where I have done the exact opposite in my manning/tranning of my my previous bird and have thought those were areas on where I needed to work on and you basically just spelled it out for me thanks alot for this thread!
    Ricky Ortiz
    Stockton, CA

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    When manning a fresh bird I used to for years take the approach of cut the birds weight and wait for a certain desired respnce. This aproach always felt unnatural to me. One of the main reasons I hated manning birds. Just ask my good friend Big Jer LOL! I was then unknowingly moving towards these, IMO, much more progressive manning ideas. It was then fueled heavily by guys like Leyman and Al Ross.
    Thought of taking a fresh trapped bird, raising its weight drasticaly was foreign at first but made sence very quickly. This helped to establish a new (low) weight that would be needed. Example: if a bird is trapped hog fat at 30 oz and is then given the traditional manning regimen of full exposure resulting in lots of bating its initial free flight weight may be 22 oz? This would mainly be due to snaping the birds weight hard enough to get the desired responce. However if the falconer takes the birds weight way up when first trapped, say to 33 ounces?,.....then takes the bird down slowly giving it ample time to adjust to its new life, we may find that the (low) weight needed for its first free flieght would be 25 oz? I trapped a passage female prairie this past december. She was trapped at 850 grms. I would consider her an average bird while manning. Not crazy but not a sweetheart either. One good thing was she loved to eat! Having 3 other birds at the time forced me to get a little sloppy (fast) in my training. I cut her down to 700 grms for the first few creance sessions. She did okay but having it only been 2 weeks since her trapping made for some wildness on her part. I then came to my senses and gave her to a good friend. He is a very experianced "ol timmer". He immediately took her weight up to 875 grms. Full crop every day. Lots of face time outside! Nothing fancy just feeding on the glove. He kept her there for 2 weeks then brought her down to 730 grms. She was a beast at this weight! Flew well and was sweet as pie on the kill from day one! Within 10 days of her first flight she was eating the sky up at 810 grams! This bird flew bigger then any bird I have seen 10 days off the creance. Most of the time she was a half mile out and up over a thousand pumping hard! Point is Al gave her the option (and time) to fly at a higher weight. He became friends with her par say and gave her little reason to not like him. Slow and easy was his approach. I can not buy into the line that most praiies beed to be flown on the edge? My tiercel from this year was the same as Al's female. From waht I saw of Hub's approach with his female its the same as Al's. Takem way up for the first week then down. Give them time to wrap there heads around there new life.
    Giving the bird (control) has been my biggest tool while manning. After the initial first days of manning I have often let the my (smaller) birds, merlins and coops) loose in a room with no windows and just sat. The bird flys in panic then lands, all the while expecting us, the (preditor)to give chase? When we don't it starts to set a new way of thinking for them when it comes to the falconer. I then let them move about freely around me with no action on my part to move towards them. I may even have a fully plucked sparrow in my hands while sitting there. I would then set a tethered live sparrow in front of me for them to come to. I would tid bit them while they pluck and then slowly pick them up. Giving the bird the "option" goes a long way in manning. This approach can be done with larger birds as well. However I take a slightly different approach. Sorry for the typos! Doing this from my "dumb" phone is not easy
    Jeremy Roselle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dillon View Post
    • Minimize bating and rehearsal of escape-avoidance behavior through the use of the hood, especially early on. When I first unhood a new passager, it is in a dim, quiet room with no commotion. Unfortunately, this tried and true advice of the masters of old has fallen to the wayside, and an increasing number of falconers are attempting to man their birds outside or with commotion right away.
    The goal is to get the bird eating as soon as possible. The sooner it is eating, the quicker the counterconditioning process can occur. Distractions won’t help here. If the bird is repeatedly bating or shows no interest in eating, it is re-hooded. Feeding can be attempted again in a few hours with smaller birds or those trapped in thinner condition, or the next day with large, robust hawks.
    My question is, why did this simple approach to manning fall out of favor here in the US? Is it because most folks start with redtails, and even if you man handle them you can still end up with an acceptable hunting partner? Or is because sponsors are ignorant, or don't give a crap? Or maybe because in order to do this, you need a proper fitting hood from the get go and most people wouldn't know a good fitting hood from bad? Look through the stacks of posts here on NAFEX of people with freshly trapped redtails, all unhooded leaning back, hackles up, mouths open and wings spread, it's almost too bad redtails are so forgiving, if they were a little more intolerant then I think people would be better falconers overall. My sponsor started out over 50 years ago with a Cooper's hawk, he's never flown a redtail, and he always starts a new bird in the dark. I'm not picking on anyone, if NAFEX were around when I started you would have seen my first redtail doing all of the things that I just described above. Live and learn...
    Paul Domski
    New Mexico, USA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saluqi View Post
    My question is, why did this simple approach to manning fall out of favor here in the US? Is it because most folks start with redtails, and even if you man handle them you can still end up with an acceptable hunting partner? Or is because sponsors are ignorant, or don't give a crap? Or maybe because in order to do this, you need a proper fitting hood from the get go and most people wouldn't know a good fitting hood from bad? Look through the stacks of posts here on NAFEX of people with freshly trapped redtails, all unhooded leaning back, hackles up, mouths open and wings spread, it's almost too bad redtails are so forgiving, if they were a little more intolerant then I think people would be better falconers overall. My sponsor started out over 50 years ago with a Cooper's hawk, he's never flown a redtail, and he always starts a new bird in the dark. I'm not picking on anyone, if NAFEX were around when I started you would have seen my first redtail doing all of the things that I just described above. Live and learn...

    My sponsor taught me the hood and darkened room until eating way. My first two birds were trained this way. Hooded on a perch inside for as long as it took the bird to start eating. Then the bird was still hooded but had a radio or tv on low 24/7 during manning and training. Never outside in the mews until hunting.

    I will admit on my third bird I took the easy way and did the "flooding" approach. Everything at once, all at once. I personally did not like the results and will go back to the way I was taught.
    http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/videogame/mario.gif Mario Nickerson
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    Gary Brewer now uses a very similar approach when working with a new RT. He mentioned to me that he initially turns it loose in large mew and then brings food into it daily, placing it in the same location each day. He sits in there with the bird and it finally starts eating, usually quicker and quicker each day. Before too long the bird is waiting for his approach and will even come to the glove for it's food. Pretty amazing, really.

    My question is how might one be able to use this with a CB HH and would it help to control the potential for creating a screamer? Or could it exacerbate (sp?) it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joby View Post
    My question is how might one be able to use this with a CB HH and would it help to control the potential for creating a screamer? Or could it exacerbate (sp?) it?
    I treated my HH no different really then I would a fresh trapped RT.
    http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/videogame/mario.gif Mario Nickerson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saluqi View Post
    My question is, why did this simple approach to manning fall out of favor here in the US? Is it because most folks start with redtails, and even if you man handle them you can still end up with an acceptable hunting partner? Or is because sponsors are ignorant, or don't give a crap? Or maybe because in order to do this, you need a proper fitting hood from the get go and most people wouldn't know a good fitting hood from bad? Look through the stacks of posts here on NAFEX of people with freshly trapped redtails, all unhooded leaning back, hackles up, mouths open and wings spread, it's almost too bad redtails are so forgiving, if they were a little more intolerant then I think people would be better falconers overall. My sponsor started out over 50 years ago with a Cooper's hawk, he's never flown a redtail, and he always starts a new bird in the dark. I'm not picking on anyone, if NAFEX were around when I started you would have seen my first redtail doing all of the things that I just described above. Live and learn...
    Dillon's description of manning a passage falcon or goshawk is the method I have used with minor differences and I learned it from the old falconry books. It is also the reason I have stated with a lot of disagreement that red tails are not the best beginners bird as they tend to get the novice off on the wrong foot.
    I'm a perfect example of that, having trapped and trained probably half dozen passage RT's before my first passage falcon. I was lost with her, but not all lost, I had to do some quick back studying. Luckily I didn't ruin her because I was keeping her hooded all the time except when working with her on the fist or coming to the lure. Fortunately I was doing the right thing as I came to learn with subsequent passage birds.
    One thing from my experience with prairie falcons that kind of goes against tradition is they seem pretty anxious in a dimly lit room as opposed to other falcons that have been reported to be calmer. I think prairies may have learned that their biggest threats will come at night rather than in full daylight. I recently bought a strobe light but so far I haven't had call to try it, but I'm eager to check it out.
    Tom Smith, Sometimes, someone unexpected comes into your life out of nowhere, makes your heart race, and changes you forever. We call those people cops.

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    Default Thoughts on Manning, from a Behaviorism Perspective

    Excellent post Dillon - thanks for sharing.

    Gerry x
    Gerry Plant

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    This is a very interesting post. There are some things on here I can try. I have had great success with the traditional way. However after reading some things here, I can see trying some other methods. One thing a lot of people do, is rush in full speed on your newly trapped bird. They have to believe they are going to die. They do remember your face. One can walk in on them slowly. They panic and struggle less. Some birds will stand up on a pigeon or the net and face you down. Usually as you get low and close, most fall over and watch, ready to foot you. First impression. I do believe one needs to be picky with passage Prairies. I do cut my down quickly and only handle them when they are hungry. The better they act, the sooner the hood is off more. I freefly most birds within two weeks, dropping their weight hard, but then raising it quickly also. I have raised some birds weight, and left the free in a room only approaching them while they were feeding until they wouldn't let me approach them closer. It took quite a bit longer to fly these birds. I do develop relationships with my birds, as I want them to be part of the team. Passage birds when cut very low get very nervous, and tend to resort to doing what will save their life. They do seem to calm down quite quicky once free flying. We fly birds for enjoyment, so if a bird is quite difficult and doesn't want to accept captivity, it is easier for all if that bird is put back in its natural environment. Like was pointed out, the birds respond better, have more open minds when they have active minds learning. Every training day, do something different. How does some of this training work with eyass? Most people get a chamber raised bird where the bird is netted or grabbed with gloves out of the chamber. I really need help with chamber raised birds. They are more difficult to me than passage birds. I hack my eyas, so no restraints for a long time. Do you do the same with Chamber raised birds as passage birds?
    Rick

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    Dillin,

    I went to bed thinking about your comments (which was a mistake :-) and based upon your experience training birds, I think you are coming more from an imprint perspective in terms of the importance of nurture, which makes sense, while I am looking at your behaviorist approach from purely my experience with passage hawks. I hope this is at the heart of our difference; if not, I will lose all faith in you :-)

    Fred writes:

    >Yeah, I can understand that! I think the point some folks are missing on this thread and even the originator of the thread is that it isn't about my way is the best way or your way is why this or that happens but that there are different ways to view things and different ways to do things.

    Fred, Dillon's original post invited discussion as it pertained to his "philosophy." He didn't specify any restrictions, so I don't see anything wrong with questioning his basis; this happens all the time when people present thoughts and ideas on a given subject; in fact, it has been going on since Socrates. It is not an attempt to discredit anyone. But, it is probably not a discussion for everyone; however, one of the great things about these lists is that you don't have to read the posts.

    Scott writes:

    >But to me, it seems that the most obvious ways Dillon's suggestions are possibly "better" is that he is advocating methods and an overall approach that will create less stress and therefore better health for the birds in question.

    I think you are right, Scott, but we won't know until Dillon tells us. I guess my position is, we are all trying to get to the same point with a hawk, and--as Fred says--there is more than one way to get there. So, what I would like to know is how Dillon's way is more advantageous than others, and how I might be able to improve upon a method that has worked for me for many years, and why I should do so. So, I think my question has merit within the context of this discussion. But, again, perhaps this discussion should be just between me and Dillon?

    Bill Boni

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    Can someone please tell me where the notion has come from that Plan A is the norm? I certainly don't see that around my falconry circles...
    -Jeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRedig View Post
    Can someone please tell me where the notion has come from that Plan A is the norm? I certainly don't see that around my falconry circles...
    Jeff, I never said it was the norm, but it does happen quite a bit. "Plan a" is extreme, yes, but there are variations thereof that all contain the same elements to a degree. I've directly witnessed falconers using that manning process on numerous occasions, have had many conversations with falconers who do things that way, and there are quite a few threads here and on the international falconry forum talking about the merits of that. A picture of a falconer digging holes with a post hole digger while his Harris' hawk is tied to his glove is something I saw on this forum that will forever be burned in my mind.

    There seems to be regional customary differences in certain parts of the country, though. One of the articles that influenced my thinking years ago was written by Ben Ohlander in a NAFA journal years ago on the passage gos-- maybe the influence of Ben and other successful falconers in that area working with difficult birds like the passage gos is why more extreme methods aren't much used in your circle.
    Dillon Horger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dillon View Post
    There seems to be regional customary differences in certain parts of the country, though. maybe the influence of Ben and other successful falconers in that area working with difficult birds like the passage gos is why more extreme methods aren't much used in your circle.
    Just a little reminder Dillon.... don't assume that Jeff's "falconry circle" is strictly regional. He and I live quite a distance away from one another, and I would consider myself part of his "falconry circle." (and him a part of mine) Speaking regionally however, I can say that aside from a few of the experiments that I have personally carried out, nobody up here is manning birds in the way that you described in "A." In fact, most of the folks I know are using the same/similar techniques that you described in your "B plan."

    My suggestion is that good falconry practice is operant conditioning revamped for our specific purposes/goals. Whether or not the falconer(s) in question realizes that they are using behaviorism is another thing entirely. And maybe that's the up-side to this thread. It puts this stuff into the forefront of our thoughts while we've got nothing else to do but wait for our birds to moult. Let's face it,... training raptors to work with us and kill game is a pretty easy goal to accomplish. But the nuances and the minutiae of it all, are where it gets interesting. One of Steve Layman's first suggestions to me (during the summer of 1995) was to read and thoroughly understand Karen Pryor's, "Don't Shoot the Dog." He insisted that falconers should understand the principles that she plainly outlines in that book. All it did for me was teach me how to "train" my future girlfriends. Maybe this thread, in contrast, will put a positive spin to the training methods that some of us use.
    Scott McNeff

    Maine

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    Quote Originally Posted by mainefalconer View Post
    Just a little reminder Dillon.... don't assume that Jeff's "falconry circle" is strictly regional. He and I live quite a distance away from one another, and I would consider myself part of his "falconry circle." (and him a part of mine) Speaking regionally however, I can say that aside from a few of the experiments that I have personally carried out, nobody up here is manning birds in the way that you described in "A." In fact, most of the folks I know are using the same/similar techniques that you described in your "B plan."
    Took the words right out of my mouth buddy, thanks! I've actually never read any of ben's articles or even really talked with him about training stuff.
    -Jeff
    "You live more for five minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life." --Marco Simoncelli

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    This is a great thread. I have trained second hand birds that people got rid of because they couldn't be trained. Most turned out to be decent game hawks. I didn't have a bird at the time and was hard up. All were pains in the ass, and took time because we had to build a relationship. All were eyass. My main point in this conversation is I pretty much am picky about passage birds. I only had one passage Prairie I could not get going after many months. I am sure I much to attribute to that. But, I have had most free flying in a few weeks, and like some other falconers, have been lucky to have one of the 5% that is destined to be a great bird from the start. If a bird doesn't like its environment and is very slow, it isn't much fun. It is a great investment of time and energy. It is our choice which bird we have. I think as a team member the bird should have some say also. If the bird really doesn't want tobe part of the team, it shouldn't need to be. This is all I am saying. Not all want to be on team Falconer. I have had and seen passage Cooper hawks die within a half an hour after trapping from fits while hooded. We have realeased some when we thought they may not agree with captivity. Passage Prairies have very strong minds and can be very stubborn. I spent five years with Cooper Hawks, and can say Passage Prairies can be a lot more difficult. The question above about making in to a freshly trapped passage bird, is to be calm and patient. I never rush in and jump on them. As you get closer, most will face you, or flip on their backs. I just scoop them up and sock them. I usually reel in the drag line while I am walking to them in the net. One peregrine was on a pigeon and I circled her while she was on the pigeon as if she was a newly trained passage falcon. She let me get right up to her and didn't even bate away. Tried to only move in when I was close when she reached down to eat. I just remember she acted so good I thought I would make a game of it. Yes, many haggards seem to be better behaved and train easier. I think it has to do with patience and intelligence. They tend to not to react as much, but observe more. They seem to know hanging upside down or turning your back on a predator is more dangerous. Since they observe more and react less, with some patience and slow movements they can deduct there is less harm coming their way. I have no scientific eveidence, just a few years of experience, and it seems to work for me. With all of this talk about training birds, it seems to me one of the most important aspects is the feel. Your instinct what you feel and what you see is working. Every bird has its own personality. I have see passage Prairies that were with the same two people everyday, but yet they hated one of them even if the other person had only given the bird food and rarely handled it. It has already been said, but yes pretty much all birds can be trained, but it isn't worth it for some. I know I am looking for a team player, so we can all go out and fly and have a good time. If I screw some up, it is my fault. I would like to believe that some of the birds I feel didn't make the team were better off back in their natural environment. There are plenty that embrace Falconry, and turn out to be great birds in a short time. I am looking for greatness. I am looking for pleasure. Plan B looks so much less stressful, and that is one of the main things that needs to be done with a passage bird. A manned passage bird is quite trainable. The less stress and negativity, the better it goes for all.
    Rick

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    Bill, hope it goes well and like it is supposed. I am sure it will be a major inconvienence for some time. I have already been long winded. I have tried the hooding, seeling, keeping socked unhooded and other methods. The main thing I have learned is every bird is different and we need to be flexible. I have had some birds unhooded the day after trapping and only hooded them to fly. These birds acted fine and trained quickly. Others were only out of the hood 1/2 an hour a day, as that is all they could handle. The several wild caught Prairies that could be left unhooded from the start, were free flying in less than a week. I have found that many passage Peregrines are over trained. There has been talk about giving birds freedom and choice, and then it is up to us to know how to keep up with them. I took one bird out and I always remember my friend saying, you aren't going to turn that bird loose are you? Like Dillion said about the creance. I haven't used a creance with a passage falcon since the 70's. It actually hinders them and usually ends up with a negative ending. Many birds make a pass, then turn around and do what they were intending to do. Many try to catch and carry, but once they bind and secure, one can make in just fine. Pulled down by a creance, and then the bird reverts and tries to get away, as Dilion has said in previous posts. Main thing, is being flexible, feeling your bird out, and understanding the bird. These birds are quite intelligent.
    Rick

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    >Bill, hope it goes well and like it is supposed. I am sure it will be a major inconvienence for some time.

    Thanks, Rick.

    I am TOTALLY in your corner regarding every bird being different, and that's why I don't think there is an end all way to train hawks. They all react differently, and have their own quirks, at least in terms of passage hawks. I don't know about imprints.

    One thing, and I have to go to bed, some folks put their newly trapped hawks in a hood and/or keep them in a dark room for a day or two before they begin manning; this is an age-old concept, as you probably know, in the sense that Japanese falconers would put their passage goshawks in a darkened cage for three days before they would begin training. I have been thinking about trying this for a long time. The only thing that stops me is hooding. I REALLY think it is important to begin the hooding process early on, in real terms. And, I'm not sure that introducing the hood in a darkened room accomplishes the mission, like doing it in full light; in other words, once you begin actually hooding the bird in full light, you might be starting all over again, and that would not be a good thing (IMHO).

    I've got to go to.

    Bill Boni

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    Oops! Jacob, I apologize, I juist noticed your post.

    You write:

    >He has actualy NOT said this, in fact he has said quite the oppisite, post #35 in response to you:

    "I've had birds that were mediocre when it came to gamehawking, but nothing I would consider "not good candidates for captivity."

    >His contention is that any hawk can be suitiable for CAPTIVITY, not that any hawk can be a good game hawk

    Here's what Dillon wrote, and what I was responding to:

    >I contend that with the right early interactions with the falconer, any tabula rasa raptor can be trained to take game, respond well in the field, and otherwise be well-adjusted in captivity.

    I would say that this defines a decent gamehawk, but it is a moot point now.

    Bill Boni

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    Yes Bill this is true, and with passage Prairies just going from indoors to outdoors sometimes can make a big difference. Tidbitting with passage birds is a key thing. They will literally leave a kill to get a tidbit off of the fingers. I am not big on hooding. My eyass birds are only hooded when I fly them. I hack my birds, but only hood them whem I am flying them. I feel it is a restraint. But flying is their fun time, so they will hood as they know they are going flying. Passage birds prefer to be unhooded also, so I like to be able to keep them unhooded as much as possible. But, what I do may not work for others. There are some things that are basics and foundation we need to have, but we need to be flexible per individual bird. I pretty much train imprints the opposite I train passage.
    Rick

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    Dillon, I was wondering if this thread would ever wander down the topic road of an Imprint...and since you brought it up I would gladly love to hear some of your thoughts in regards to that process, for longwings if it makes a difference in your approach.

    Thanks, this has been and continues to be a very informative and helpful thread...at least in my eyes.
    ~ Lee
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Slikkers View Post
    Dillon, I was wondering if this thread would ever wander down the topic road of an Imprint...and since you brought it up I would gladly love to hear some of your thoughts in regards to that process, for longwings if it makes a difference in your approach.

    Thanks, this has been and continues to be a very informative and helpful thread...at least in my eyes.
    Lee, I am with you. Loving this! Dillon, I am tracking well with your prose. Keep it coming please.

    Phil Smith
    Phil Smith
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    Default Thoughts on Manning, from a Behaviorism Perspective

    Dillon:

    Really interesting and thought provoking piece Dillon.

    Thanks very much for taking the time to share this and start this discussion.

    Best Regards,

    Rob
    Last edited by Dirthawking; 04-29-2012 at 10:14 PM.
    Rob Rainey
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    I've just found this thread recently and find it very thought provoking. I've trained two hawks so far using 'traditional' methods and have been reasonably successful, but I am super interested in finding other ways in which to train a hawk. From what I understand, OC allows you to communicate more fluently with the hawk, something that I find to be particularly intriguing. One aspect of manning that hasn't been covered much in this thread that I am especially interested in is handling the hawk on a kill. What are some ways to get a hawk comfortable with you nearby while it's feeding on a kill? I just thought I'd ask.
    Maureen

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