Blackjack, 2012 Imprint NA tiercel goshawk

[goshawkr]

I am a fan of either one! I totally agree that the hands-free result of a marker word over a clicker is a definite benefit. I like the clicker because of the consistency and distinctiveness of the noise.

Jeff - I can't click loud enough with my tongue! I've tried, I'm awful at it! :P

To keep my hands relatively free, I put the clicker on a wristband so I can click and then drop it. For dogs, you can also hook it to the end of the leash.

Blackjack cuddled up on my lap for a while last night, and then ended up climbing up onto my shoulder and then onto a pillow on the arm of the couch--he's starting to look for "higher" places to be. He was so zonked, rather than disturb him when I went to bed I just moved the pillow onto the floor next to his nest bowl and let him sleep. He was still on it when I woke up in the morning :P

A pinch light in the teeth is a good hands fee signal. It does get a little tedious after a while though.

[Ally]

Any sort of consistent marker will work. A light, a sound, a word, you could even flash a colored card every time and, with enough pairing, the association would be made.

The only thing I would suggest to anyone creating a CR is to pick one and stick with it--every time you change it you have to "re-load" the CR and create the new association, and you might end up causing confusion for the animal.

[mithril]

Anyway, my basic point is that you should take a step back from the term clicker. Any signal that can be quickly delivered works.

I agree. Some people argue that using a clicker as the marker eliminates the confusion that inflection/tone might cause if using a word instead. Others say that a clicker is simply faster than a word, and to some degree I agree, because even my "yes" can sound a bit drawn out with the "s" at the end. I personally haven't noticed an increase in time it takes to train a dog with a verbal marker vs a clicker.

[FredFogg]

Anyway, my basic point is that you should take a step back from the term clicker. Any signal that can be quickly delivered works.

Hmmm, seems to me like falconers have been doing this for years, I think they called it a whistle. LOL

Personally, I can whistle with my mouth loud enough and that is what I do. I use a cheap Wally World whistle when I want my bird to come to the lure.

[Ally]

Fred -
Don't confuse a recall cue (whistle) with a reward marker (clicker). One is a command (like saying "come!") and the other is marking the fact that the animal came (like "good boy!").

That's what confused me the most when I started learning about OC and I've noticed when teaching new dog training clients that is the most common misconception, that the marker is a recall cue.

Checking on the little guy at lunch...I think he's grown more feathers in the 5 hours since I saw him. Checking out the front yard for the moment before I head back to work, flapping his wings like crazy.

[goshawkr]

I agree. Some people argue that using a clicker as the marker eliminates the confusion that inflection/tone might cause if using a word instead. Others say that a clicker is simply faster than a word, and to some degree I agree, because even my "yes" can sound a bit drawn out with the "s" at the end. I personally haven't noticed an increase in time it takes to train a dog with a verbal marker vs a clicker.

The one thing I forgot to elaborate on is just how fast the CR should be able to be delivered. One second on the outside. A word can work, but usually its to long a delivery.

The shorter the signal, the more likely you can tag a behavior for reward and have the critter understand what you are trying to encourage. A signal that is longer will leave them sorting through a few possibilities for the answer.

[Heatherg]

I think there are a bunch of terms that can be interchanged and mean similar things. When I was learning OC we used the term bridge for the "good boy" and we used whistles or vocal cues or hand signals.....it all seemed to work just fine....tomato toe-ma-toe....We trained a variety of birds from hand reared andean condors to storks and parrots and all seemed to learn the cues and rewards and bridges.
I have never liked the clicker...but thats my personal preference! Do what works for you

[goshawkr]

The only thing I would suggest to anyone creating a CR is to pick one and stick with it--every time you change it you have to "re-load" the CR and create the new association, and you might end up causing confusion for the animal.

I find its best, at least with falconry, to use three. One soft audio one that can be delivered during training sessions while the kido's are asleep, one loud audio one that can be delievered from several hundered yards (a quick single blast on a pea whistle), and a strictly visual one - flash of a pinch light.

You are correct it takes time to "re-load" the CR (meaning that it takes a bit of time for the critter to get the joke that the CR means it has done something right and is getting a treat), but once they have the overall concept of what a CR in general down, its a very short walk to understand that the new CR is synonomous.

[goshawkr]

Checking on the little guy at lunch...I think he's grown more feathers in the 5 hours since I saw him. Checking out the front yard for the moment before I head back to work, flapping his wings like crazy.

Photos??????

[FredFogg]

Fred -
Don't confuse a recall cue (whistle) with a reward marker (clicker). One is a command (like saying "come!") and the other is marking the fact that the animal came (like "good boy!").

That's what confused me the most when I started learning about OC and I've noticed when teaching new dog training clients that is the most common misconception, that the marker is a recall cue.

Checking on the little guy at lunch...I think he's grown more feathers in the 5 hours since I saw him. Checking out the front yard for the moment before I head back to work, flapping his wings like crazy.

Geoff, my point was one could use a whistle to be the reward marker. Basically, a recall cue is a reward marker but the reward marker is used for other things and it can be a whistle instead of a clicker.

[Dirthawking]

Do you have to worry about feeding an eyas gos so much sparrow?

[Ally]

Mario - I didn't think so, but now you've got me questioning--what are the potential risks? I've always been told sparrow is a richer, better food than quail even.

Anyway--here are some more pictures guys. I'm photo-happy. A falconry friend who works at the senior center invited us to come visit for some socialization time today. Should be fun!

It was such a nice day yesterday, we spent a good chunk of it outside


23 days old, standing more and more


Something above caught his attention


You can kinda see the feather growth in this picture...I tried to get one of him stretching his wings (next pic) but it's not very good. I fail as a photographer




Exploring the jungle


Blackjack and the dog are good friends...maybe not so much when Jack's nibbling on his face, but he tolerates it.

[Dirthawking]

I have heard and seen where birds fed a high diet of sparrow can get frounce. Just wondered if that was a concern with accips and eyas's.

[BestBeagler]

I have heard and seen where birds fed a high diet of sparrow can get frounce. Just wondered if that was a concern with accips and eyas's.

I was told to freeze any fresh meat if possible before feeding it to the eyas. I have heard sparrow seem to lose some of their nutritional value after being frozen or atleast the birds burn through it quicker but thats with sharpies and merlins. With an eyas gos I wouldn't worry about that and be more concerned about the parasites and frounce so I would freeze them first. Falconry is all about taking as many precautions as you can the longer your in this game the more you learn and take more precautions.

[Ally]

I have heard that about feeding pigeons, but didn't know the risk was high with sparrow or starling. The sparrows are all frozen, and he is supplemented with DOC and quail as well.

Went to pick up my friend's tiercel peregrine eyass yesterday, and needed to do some fence pricing--so Jack got to go to Home Depot and was mobbed by kids, adults and employees alike. He didn't make a sound the entire time, never showed any fear or nervousness.

This morning he wanted oh so badly to play with my female cat, but she was too preoccupied chasing a twistie tie around the kitchen, and he was trying to catch up but just isn't quite coordinated enough. He's been spending most of the morning following someone around. It's supposed to be a beautiful day so we'll be spending a good portion of it outside.

[FredFogg]

Went to pick up my friend's tiercel peregrine eyass yesterday, and needed to do some fence pricing--so Jack got to go to Home Depot and was mobbed by kids, adults and employees alike. He didn't make a sound the entire time, never showed any fear or nervousness.

Ally, most raptors don't do well with Home Depot fencing, they do much better with Lowe's!

Disclaimer: My working at Lowe's and having Lowe's stock has nothing to do with this! LOL

[Dirthawking]

Ally, most raptors don't do well with Home Depot fencing, they do much better with Lowe's!

Disclaimer: My working at Lowe's and having Lowe's stock has nothing to do with this! LOL

You would think with a disclaimer like that you could talk them into carrying good astroturf again!!

[lewsouder]

Hey Fred...didn't know if any other falconers worked for Lowe's. I created a forum for Lowe's falconers when connections first became available but didn't get any response. Nice to feel not so alone:-)

[Ally]

Ha ha, well I will have to check Lowe's next time! It's right across the street. :P

We picked up my buddy's imprint peregrine from the airport on Friday, like I was saying, and the two babies are only 4 days apart (peregrine is older) but the differences in development surprised me. The peregrine was VERY steady on his feet, and tried to foot the crap out of me when I went to touch him.

Blackjack, on the other hand, still isn't steady on or experimenting as much with his feet. I gave him just an opened-up sparrow this morning to see what he'd do with it, and he picked at it with his beak for a minute, then looked at me like, "Mom, help?"

So I sat down with him and cut little pieces off the sparrow and fed him that way. Now he's wandering around the house.

[FredFogg]

Hey Fred...didn't know if any other falconers worked for Lowe's. I created a forum for Lowe's falconers when connections first became available but didn't get any response. Nice to feel not so alone:-)

I work at the Data Center in Winston-Salem and to tell you the truth, haven't even looked at Connections! LOL I am at work now and sit here in front of a computer from 7 p.m. until 7 a.m., too busy on NAFEX to look at Connections!

[Ally]

Happy Father's Day (belated) to all of your dads out there

Spent the evening with my parents and brought Jack along for the ride. Lots of attention, pets, and visual stimulation. Neighbor kids, plus mom, plus grandparents came over to meet Jack, and the little girl was running around and riding her bike in circles around his nest bowl. Her older brother had a skateboard. Jack didn't bat an eyelash at the movement, bright colors (flourescent pink bike :P) or at all the attention. The kids petted him everywhere and my mom had a camera in his face the whole time. He finally got tired and went to sleep by his nest bowl.

He chased a leaf around the yard and even pounced on it and started footing it--the first real sign of using his feet that I've seen. I'm going to start watching for and marking the behavior when I see it, and introduce chasing and catching the lure and other toys. Thus far he's had access to the lure to play with if he wanted it, but we haven't focused on associating it with food yet. That's going to be our next step this week. Still occasionally bringing the hood out and marking for reaching into the hood, but not pushing it until he gets a bit older.

As far as noise level goes, he chirps occasionally when he's bored, but the only real noise he makes is some whistles when he's being fed. Last night right before bed he let out one really loud "kakakakakak," but the room was dark and I didn't see anything around, so I don't know what alarmed him. Didn't stand up or move--maybe he was having a bad dream? :P

[Ally]

Eureka, we had a breakthrough today. Tied half a sparrow to his lure and he tried to pull at it with his beak for a few tries before he finally put a foot on it and began to tear it up. He's been footing the towel in his nest bowl and all kinds of other small things today. He's also testing his wings more and more.

I clicked to mark movement towards the lure, and marked the act of putting his feet on the food. He got snagged up by the cartiledge in the chest cavity, so I reached in and took that piece from the lure and broke it up into smaller pieces and offered it to him. He didn't care a bit.

Back to the parents house tonight for a good friend of the family in town. More dogs, more people, more pets and attention.

[spygirl]

Ally, I just wanted to say that I am thoroughly enjoying your thread and am very interested to see how the clicker training turns out. It may be a couple of years before I can jump back into falconry, so I'm living vicariously through NAFEX!

[Ally]

I'm glad you're enjoying!
As an homage to Jeff Foxworthy, I experienced this about a week ago with a wrong snip of the shears...

"If there are sparrow brains splattered all over your sink...you might be a falconer." :-D

[Ally]

28 days (6/19/2012) -

Jack is starting to do a couple of things: he is running and hopping and flapping his wings like crazy. He made a huge leap to try to get up on a recliner in the living room and latched on with his feet about a foot up, whistling in frustration and then had to let go and get back to the floor. I put him up on the couch and he settled down on a blanket with me and fell asleep.

The other thing he's starting to do is attack and foot things. The dog's and cats' tails are ESPECIALLY interesting (not so much for their respective owners.) He will run/attack dog bones on the ground and leaves outside. When I've got food available, I'm marking the chasing behavior and giving him food for it.

He's definitely got the holding food with his feet thing down. I'm still offering him tidbits from my fingers when he demonstrates the correct attitude/body language of baby-to-parent, but the main part of his meal is being fed on the lure. I'll sit with him while I'm feeding him from my fingers and then toss the lure out (very short distances, maximum of about 3 feet at this point) and click when he starts moving towards the lure. The first time I did that he stopped and looked at me, expecting food, and I didn't have any left (D'OH! ) so I had to tear a piece off the lure and give it to him. The next time I did it I waited until he was almost to the lure and was locked onto the food on it, then clicked, still capturing the "pursuit" of the lure, but the reward was right there.

Since he's running around so much, I am going to move him outside to the weathering during the day, weather permitting. I'm going to leave his kennel/nest bowl out with him for shelter and comfort, but he's going to start exploring the great wide world. Once he demonstrates he can get onto a low perch by himself I'll start integrating perches out for him, and then the "walkabout" tame hack will begin.

Can you spot the goshawk?? Jack curled up in the blanket.

[Ally]

29 days -

Blackjack spent the last half of my workday out in the weathering, with his crate available for shade/shelter/rest--it was about 70 degrees. I brought him back inside when I got home and pulled the RT out of the mew to do some spring cleaning. When I came back inside he was in his bathpan and I watched him dunk his entire head underwater. :P

He is also seriously starting to branch. He's trying to hop/climb on everything--my dog was laying by the couch, and Jack ran over to him, thought about it for a second and then hopped up on his back. The dog stood up, surprised, and his back was about level with the cushions on the couch. Just like he had planned it, Blackjack hopped off and then proceeded to climb up onto the arm of the chair.

Before he did that, I was trying to give him his afternoon meal but he refused to sit still and be calm about it. He was hungry--he kept trying to get to the plate of food but wasn't in the right mindset. He finally wandered off when he wasn't just getting his free lunch, so I'm just letting him play. Once he calms down I will feed him again--and this will be an entire meal in the right mindset from my fingertips. We need a refresher in manners today.

EDIT:: Haha! Victory is mine...just as I finished typing that he settled down and laid down on the beanbag he managed to get up on...I captured the behavior with a click and had the food dish ready. Fed him his entire meal to a now-calm young goshawk. He's about to crash out on the beanbag. Apparently running around the house takes a lot out of you

In his bathpan:



And on the beanbag

Yay, Chance (my RT's) tail is going to be barred! (It's my favorite "style" of adult tails...:P )

[JRedig]

Thanks for keeping this up Ally, having fun reading it! That goes for all the baby threads really, love baby raptors!!!

[frootdog]

I was told to freeze any fresh meat if possible before feeding it to the eyas.

The organism that causes frounce survives freezing at temps well below that of our freezers.

[goshawkr]

The organism that causes frounce survives freezing at temps well below that of our freezers.

I know your a vet Krys - but the info I had from my falconer/vet who has boned up on the research on frounce was that it is possible to culture live frounce from animals that have been frozen for as long as 6 months. But that dosnt mean those organisms can cause disease. I was informed that 2 weeks in the freezer is enough to prevent a viable infection, based on experimental research.

When I feed pigeon, I go for a 6 month dip in the freezer first though. Just to be safer.

[Ally]

Good info guys, i didn't know that.

Blackjack has been branching around the house and out in the yard...he got himself up on a box and then couldn't figure out how to get down. He's spent most of the morning/afternoon wandering around the yard and attacking leaves and weeds.

When I went to feed him this morning he was in the kitchen standing on a shoe...I sat down in the living room and put the plate of food in front of me, and he came running. I thought I was going to have to guard the plate (sibling) until he calmed down, but he skidded to a halt right in front of the food dish and sat back on his elbows and stared at me. It's the neatest thing

He whistles a little bit when he's getting fed, but otherwise is very quiet. I know I haven't gotten to the hard part yet, but I love this so far. I'm having such a great time.

[BestBeagler]

The organism that causes frounce survives freezing at temps well below that of our freezers.

Yes, but freezing kills other things as well. But it's good to get that info out there.

[hcmcelroy]

Isaac,

Stormy Huddelson DVM of Tucson researched frounce some years ago and found that the freezer did not kill the organism and that it was found all over the body of the pigeon. Not limited to the digesive track. I've fed frozen pigeon for decades and suffer an infected hawk now and again but one shot of med and its stopped and with a few days it is gone.

Harry.

[BestBeagler]

Isaac,

Stormy Huddelson DVM of Tucson researched frounce some years ago and found that the freezer did not kill the organism and that it was found all over the body of the pigeon. Not limited to the digesive track. I've fed frozen pigeon for decades and suffer an infected hawk now and again but one shot of med and its stopped and with a few days it is gone.

Harry.

I did not know it was found all over the body. Interesting stuff!

[Ally]

Put up a second mew/flight pen yesterday with the help of a falconer friend of mine, who has a tiercel peregrine that's 4 days older than Blackjack. While we were working they were both out in the yard running around and exploring...they were completely indifferent to each other. They sat on the back step together and were actually sleeping right next to each other for a while.

If only they would be friends for life...put the peregrine up to hold the ducks tight to the water, sneak up with the gos on the fist and flush...now wouldn't THAT be fun?

Not much new to report except that Jack is more and more mobile every day...he's climbing on everything he can climb on and getting up as high as he can. The feather growth is continuing to go very quickly...

Blackjack @ 32 days old, and Jager, tiercel peregrine @ 36 days old

[hcmcelroy]

Ally,

Speaking of flying an accipiter with a falcon. During the 80's I flew a passage female aplomado with Oscar Beingolea's imprinted female bicolored hawk along the coast south of Lima, Peru. It was marshy terrain. They did not crab but the aplo was dominant and quickly took any bird caught by the bicolored. The accipiter stepped off her catch as the falcon approached.
During the 60's two of my friends flew female Cooper's together and again one was dominant and super fast. She took any bird caught. These two did not crab.
During the 70's I raised two female Cooper's together and they began to crab in the mew even before hard penned. We flew them together and it was war!!! The faster dominant hawk was a real problem and did not settle down with the other in the field.
I don't believe I'll try hawking two N. American accipiters together any time soon.
But have you read about the African accipiter that hunts with some animal...

Harry.