Blackjack, 2012 Imprint NA tiercel goshawk

[Ally]

34 days old -

We have transitioned from mostly being hand fed and only feeding sometimes on the lure to getting a few tidbits from my hands, still in calm, "baby" mindset, to eating most of his meals on the lure. I've also started leaving half a quail on the lure instead of chopped meat, and he does a pretty good job at holding it with his feet and tearing it up.

He's finally figured out how to get up on the perches, and today he laddered from the laundry basket, to the ring perch, up to the top of the dryer, where he is currently asleep on a bag of dental stix for the dog. Won't be long now

@ 32 days, playing with one of my kittens -


@ 34 days, up on the ring perch by himself for the first time:

[goshawkr]

Ally,

Speaking of flying an accipiter with a falcon. During the 80's I flew a passage female aplomado with Oscar Beingolea's imprinted female bicolored hawk along the coast south of Lima, Peru. It was marshy terrain. They did not crab but the aplo was dominant and quickly took any bird caught by the bicolored. The accipiter stepped off her catch as the falcon approached.
During the 60's two of my friends flew female Cooper's together and again one was dominant and super fast. She took any bird caught. These two did not crab.
During the 70's I raised two female Cooper's together and they began to crab in the mew even before hard penned. We flew them together and it was war!!! The faster dominant hawk was a real problem and did not settle down with the other in the field.
I don't believe I'll try hawking two N. American accipiters together any time soon.
But have you read about the African accipiter that hunts with some animal...

Harry.

Steve Layman has occaisionally flown goshawks in cast, but it takes some careful doing.

I used to be in touch with a guy who was big time into racing pigeons. He loved falconry, but never took it up. He was really REALLy savvy with raptors.

One winter he had a male and a female coopers that cooperatively hunted his flock of pigeons. The female would flush to the male, the male would kill and let the female eat first. He saw this happen several times that year.

Steve Layman's son Seth was doing field research in Wyoming on goshawks and saw many occaisions of cooperation and sharing of kills and such.

There are also several interesting bits of friendly relations mentioned by field researchers that Robert Kenward coallated in his field study anthology on goshawks (titled "The goshawk")

Almost makes one think that these accipiters are not anti-social creatures after all.

[goshawkr]

Ally,

Now the fun really begins!

[hcmcelroy]

Geoff,

Kenward has written THE book on goshawks. It is a whole study and he is falconry friendly.

I was in the field with a friend doing research on the Cooper's when we spotted two females hunting together. He remarked, "Don't use my name but some of these hawks are social."

Harry.

[allredone]

Have you weighed your new buddy yet Ally?

[PeteJ]

I was told to freeze any fresh meat if possible before feeding it to the eyas. I have heard sparrow seem to lose some of their nutritional value after being frozen or atleast the birds burn through it quicker but thats with sharpies and merlins. With an eyas gos I wouldn't worry about that and be more concerned about the parasites and frounce so I would freeze them first. Falconry is all about taking as many precautions as you can the longer your in this game the more you learn and take more precautions.

Just as an fyi for you. Freezing won't really protect you from Frounce or parasites. Most 'critters' have evolved to survive the freezing process by various methods such as being in the form of cysts which are very tough and virtually immune to most environmental conditions.
I worry very little about Frounce as your bird is likely going to get exposed to it sometime along the way via the quarries they take. I just wait for it to show up and treat accordingly. There are a few that are more serious to worry about such as avian herpes, avian malaria, those will kill your bird quick. But the value of the food quality of fresh sparrows cannot be underestimated, particularly on a growing eyas, and the smaller the raptor the more important it is to have the highest quality nutrition you can get into them while they are growing.

[BestBeagler]

Just as an fyi for you. Freezing won't really protect you from Frounce or parasites. Most 'critters' have evolved to survive the freezing process by various methods such as being in the form of cysts which are very tough and virtually immune to most environmental conditions.
I worry very little about Frounce as your bird is likely going to get exposed to it sometime along the way via the quarries they take. I just wait for it to show up and treat accordingly. There are a few that are more serious to worry about such as avian herpes, avian malaria, those will kill your bird quick. But the value of the food quality of fresh sparrows cannot be underestimated, particularly on a growing eyas, and the smaller the raptor the more important it is to have the highest quality nutrition you can get into them while they are growing.

You speak the truth Pete.

[goshawkr]

Kenward has written THE book on goshawks. It is a whole study and he is falconry friendly.

Harry,

That is quite the book, isnt it?

In the forward Kenward discuss how it was his love of goshawks as a falconer that led him into research on them.

He seems to be a great researcher - using his falconry to help him study. Very similar to what Ken Franklin has done on his work on stooping peregrines.

[Ally]

Sorry for the delay guys, been a little busy--just added the final member of my hunting team for this fall--my new english setter from Heather G. Right around 18 months old.

My scale went a little wonky on me so I think I'm going to have to get a new one...but from the little I could get it to work, Jack was right around 740g @ 37 days old. He's been exploring like mad, and when he comes running to the lure he's starting to catch a little air

He's funny--he'll work on a chick or a quail on the lure and if he has trouble with it, occasionally I'll step in and pull off a couple pieces or help him break it open and he sits back--sometimes will even rock back on his haunches and wait for me--and let me help him out. I hope this will translate over to kills. He gets clicks for chasing the lure and for calm behavior while eating.

He will stand on the glove ok, but if I pick him up too fast I get a couple of anxious whistles from him. Got anklets on him a few days ago...first attempt was in his nest bowl and he wouldn't stand still for anything, but as soon as I put him up on a perch at about chest height they went on without a hitch. If I were to do it again I would have put his anklets on him earlier, before he was quite as mobile.

Now, for the part you all care about

@ 36 days--he's adopted this corner shelf as a favorite roost in the house.


@ 38 days old -- starting to look like a goshawk!!!


Meet the new setter:





You can tell my husky is SO thrilled about the big, wiggly puppy

[BestBeagler]

@ 38 days old -- starting to look like a goshawk!!!

Looking good Ally. He looks very similar to my coops last year in that photograph
The dog's beautiful are they usually that thin? She looks great.

[falcon56]

If any of my setters ever got that thin, I'd arrest myself for neglect!

[Ally]

No, they're not usually that thin. I just got him on Tuesday, I want to put about ten pounds on him. Ray, if you can't do anything besides pick out negatives on my threads, I'm going to ask you to stay off of them.

[mithril]

Ally, I've fed "satin balls" (http://www.holisticdog.org/Nutrition...atinballs.html) to foster dogs that needed to gain weight with great success. Recipes vary slightly and some ingredients can usually be omitted. A google search will pull up a lot more links and info.

Edited to add that I think that is one good looking setter! I want a Heather setter. I happen to have a penchant for red and white dogs and have two Irish Red and White Setters in addition to a Brittany. Here's one of the IRWS.

[falcon56]

No, they're not usually that thin. I just got him on Tuesday, I want to put about ten pounds on him. Ray, if you can't do anything besides pick out negatives on my threads, I'm going to ask you to stay off of them.

Don't get your bloomers in such a bunch, the dog is obviously way too thin & I understand you just got him/her. There are easy ways to keep posts from being "picked" at.

[sevristh]

Don't get your bloomers in such a bunch, the dog is obviously way too thin & I understand you just got him/her. There are easy ways to keep posts from being "picked" at.

There are also much more constructive ways to express concern without knowing the facts... Just saying.

[Ally]

I understand that he is underweight, and I welcome constructive criticism and feedback/suggestions in all of my endeavors because hey, I'm still learning and always will be.

HOWEVER: that was just an extremely uncalled-for, flat-out negative comment, and it was not the first I have received from you on a thread, Ray. Moreover, your response to my request was just as negative and emotionally reactive.

I am happy to report that Blackjack and Bo (the setter) have been introduced and are getting along well with each other, he has stopped trying to eat my cats, and is settling down well. He has also already put on a little bit of weight.

Ashley, thank you so much for that link, and that's a beautiful dog.

Jack is progressing very well, he knows his lure and is still more than willing to step back and let me help him with his meals or eat it himself. Going to start playing some OC games with him, pulling ideas from other threads I've read here and building on some of my own.

[frootdog]

Jack is progressing very well,

I think you should call him BJ for short.

[Ally]

I think you should call him BJ for short.

Haha, I do :P

[frootdog]

Haha, I do :P

Awesome! I named my rescue pointer Boner and now one of my yellow-napes says his name.

[falcon56]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, nobody wins there, so this will be my final comment. If you look at my first post, there was no reference to you, it was a general comment on the condition of the dog. In retrospect, maybe it would have been more appropriate on your part to put the ten pounds on the dog before you posted a picture, saving the person you aquired the dog from any embarrassment, not you. As far as other negative comments to you, I guess you'll have to refresh my memory. Too often, members post on this forum before they think, and then get mad and take it as a personal affront when someone responds negatively. This is a public forum, and be prepared to take some heat now and then, or don't post. I am one of a VERY few members that has the stones to call a spade a spade here, I won't apologize for that nor mollycoddle anyone. One of the best pieces of advice I was given by my mentors over 40 years ago, was that you will learn a lot more in this sport, if you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed.

[Heatherg]

Hey guys......I had that dog for its entire life....until giving to ally.....he is thin but not from neglect....he is an active dog!!!!!! My only other option was to lock him up for a majority of the day and I can't/ won't do that!!!! I can tell you that he will put on weight as he matures and settles into his body. He has plenty of energy and drive and eats like a horse....he's been wormed and vaccinated. He is just at a gangly stage and a VERY ACTIVE dog.....I've seen many setters and pointers go through this stage!!!!
Ray or anyone for that matter ......if you have comments ....please address me personally in a PM and I would be glad to discuss this with you! But please leave ally out of it and her thread as well!

[BestBeagler]

One of the best pieces of advice I was given by my mentors over 40 years ago, was that you will learn a lot more in this sport, if you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed.

Ray, this was one of the hardest pieces of advice for me to accept when I first started getting into falconry, and it still is difficult for me as I like to talk, but it is absolutely true. Even if you don't agree with everything the other person says you can still glean a lot of information and get a different perspective. I have high respect for the silent types where you can see the wheels turning in their brains and when they do speak, it is meaningful.

[Lowachi]

..... One of the best pieces of advice I was given by my mentors over 40 years ago, was that you will learn a lot more in this sport, if you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed.

One wasn't Jack Oar was it? I remember that comment, tho it was a tad more "colorful" as I recall.
Doesn't pay to be too thin-skinned when you can't "hear" the inflection intended. personnally, did not take it as a slam to Ally, but....

[Ally]

Heather--I'm sorry, I probably should have waited to put up any pictures, but you are correct. He is extremely active and has plenty of energy and drive. He's been put on a high-calorie diet and is being fed twice a day, and he still hoovers up anything in sight. There's nothing wrong with him except for his energy level. He's a wonderful dog, has a fantastic nose and a great personality, and I couldn't be luckier to have him Thank you.

This morning was insanity...BJ was chasing the setter, who went out the cat door, where the gos instantly followed, and ended up with both dogs on the deck, the gos on a lawn chair and one of the cats lounging underneath it. He ran/hopped about 20 feet to the lure, and I stepped him off of the lure after he was done to a quail wing on the glove. All the sparrows and robins chirping and screaming at him distracted him for a bit, but even the lawnmowers and the train going by didn't phase him.

Standing out on the chair in some light rain...

[allredone]

Don't get your bloomers in such a bunch, the dog is obviously way too thin & I understand you just got him/her.

Thank you Master of the obvious!!!

[/QUOTE]There are easy ways to keep posts from being "picked" at.[/QUOTE]

That's right Ray... Just do everything correctly according to you? :p

One of the best pieces of advice I was given by my mentors over 40 years ago, was that you will learn a lot more in this sport, if you keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth closed.

You seem unable to take your own advice on that last point. I dont know you or Ally Ray, but If my dog was thin and you saw it for the first time and had the poor judgement to use the word neglect in my presence I'd tell you exactly which hill to go hide behind.

Nothing wrong with enquiring after the animal's well being out of genuine concern. However it's not real polite to call someone out for neglect when you don't have all the relevant information.

Ally is pursuing something very interesting with her falconry. I wish her sucsess and am looking forward to reading more about her adventures with this bird and dog team.

[Ally]

41 days --

Ran into the first signs of more "adult" behavior today when I went to call Jack to the lure for his breakfast. I've only recently cut down to twice a day feedings in preparation for the tame hack soon to begin.

I took him out back and put him on a perch on the back step and called him to the lure about 30 feet, and he managed to be airborne about half of the way there.

When he first reached the lure he started to mantle. I was right there so I knelt down and started brushing his wings back until he settled down. I wasn't invasive enough to upset him, but I also prevented him from self-rewarding the behavior by beginning to eat. I waited until he was slicked down with his wings back before clicking, and offered him an immediate reward. I gave him a few more tidbits from my fingers before letting him eat his meal on the lure, which he proceeded to do without any further issues.

From what I've read on other threads here and in my studies in preparation for this imprint, my management and reading of the bird's behavior is going to begin to be challenged more and more from here on out. So far, so good?

[goshawkr]

From what I've read on other threads here and in my studies in preparation for this imprint, my management and reading of the bird's behavior is going to begin to be challenged more and more from here on out. So far, so good?

That is dramatically understated.

Here is where where the rubber hits the road. The small mistakes you make in the near future will explode into big problems further down the road, so be careful that whatever small mistakes you make are not repeated.

I say this not to scare you - but to make you suitably paranoid to keep the number of mistakes minimal. We all make at least a few of them of course.

[BestBeagler]

I say this not to scare you - but to make you suitably paranoid to keep the number of mistakes minimal. We all make at least a few of them of course.

This is the part of imprinting that wears me out. I am always in a constant state of paranoia. I enjoy hacking as a lot of things get worked out at hack and things seem easier especially in the weight management department, they take care of themselves. This is has been my experience with two hacked accipiters.

[rocgwp]

That is dramatically understated.

Here is where where the rubber hits the road. The small mistakes you make in the near future will explode into big problems further down the road, so be careful that whatever small mistakes you make are not repeated.

I say this not to scare you - but to make you suitably paranoid to keep the number of mistakes minimal. We all make at least a few of them of course.

Well said! As Steve Layman told me, one 'papercut' is no big deal, but too many and you can bleed to death. 'Papercuts' add up quickly and end with a goshawk on your face (but that too is fixable). Avoid the papercuts!

You've done great so far! I'm loving this thread!

[Richard]

Hey Fred...didn't know if any other falconers worked for Lowe's. I created a forum for Lowe's falconers when connections first became available but didn't get any response. Nice to feel not so alone:-)

Chuck Butler works for Lowe's in Pueblo, Colorado.

[FredFogg]

Chuck Butler works for Lowe's in Pueblo, Colorado.

I think all Lowe's falconers living in goshawk territories should help other Lowe's falconers get a passage goshawk this fall! LOL

[Ally]

LMAO. Nothing like instilling a bit of fear to really get the paranoia worked up.

Well, Jack just had his first real flight tonight AND, I caught it on video! It's not much, but it's the first real flying he's ever done From the dog house to the top of the weathering. Will post the vid when I figure out how to do it.

He had JUST finished his dinner on the lure and was running around the yard footing everything that wasn't the grass, and up he jumped to the top of the dog house, and a few minutes later, up he went again O.O. Scared the crap outta me because he had just eaten! Thankfully he stepped onto the glove when I reached up for him and I put him back in his weathering. He will get a longer time out tomorrow with some short, non-removable jesses and a tranny.

He mauled the lure for his dinner and started to mantle again...gah. Same procedure as this morning, preventing the self-reward until he settled down and clicking/feeding tidbits for calm, slicked down behavior intermittent with his dinner.

I'm going to start splitting his training sessions--one will be a large meal fully on the lure, when he is called down from his hack. The other will be used as tidbits for OC games--hooding, tidbit hunting, and parent/eyass relationship work for now, and as he gets stronger will be working in restrained pursuits for exercise. I'll try to get pics and/or videos of that as well

I think by making the switch to almost everything on the lure I lost a little bit of that relationship...I notice it in little things, like his posture when I approach and the beginnings of mantling on the lure...and as things are going to go into overdrive I really want to try to maintain it. In hindsight, this is what I should have been doing all along instead of switching almost exclusively to the lure. So here we go

[wingnut]

I've really enjoyed reading your thread Ally. I admire the time and effort you are putting into OC training. And also the time you take to post pics and dialogue. It really seems like a lot of work and if you'll humor me for a moment, perhaps a lot of work that really does not change the finished product. By comparison, and this is only based rearing two other imprint goshawks and the one I am currently rearing of which the final product is yet to be assesed. My first gos I raised before anyone even knew what OC was or who McDermit was and she did all those things that we strive for in a quiet, well mannered imprint. I had a stupid attack and traded her for a peregrine when she was 7 and like ten years later the guy called me and when she was killed and wanted me to start him another one. The last male I had I raised the same way. In the house until the down started flying and then in the mew and my shop and lots of baggies prior to penning. He was a quiet, solid, killing machine. No bad habits. I'm doing the same thing with my current male. He's about 50 days old, flying him free and killing baggies. No weight control yet. He spends half the day in the mew, half the day in my shop mostly by himself, and the night in the mew. It's really pretty easy. I'm sure your bird will turn out awesome and I hope mine will too.

[Ally]

Hey Doug,
I really appreciate the thoughtful comments
I definitely don't think there is only one right way to raise an imprint--I'm sure there are some great McDermott imprints out there, and some great Layman imprints, AND some other methods, like yours, that are individuals' own recipes.

The reason I chose this method is because I don't have any experience raising an imprint, and I don't have a lot of other birds under my belt, so this method is one that is structured in a way that makes a lot of sense to me with my behaviorism background. It gives me a tool to communicate with my little guy in a way that makes sense to both me and him--and really, I think that's the key. Use whatever method makes the most sense to you and that you understand. I don't think this method would work with someone that doesn't have a solid foundation with operant conditioning, just like McDermott's method probably wouldn't work with someone that couldn't take their bird EVERYWHERE with them.

My advice (which is only based on my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt) to anyone that is thinking about doing an imprint, is to look at all the methods out there and look at their own lifestyle and see which one "fits." I was very apprehensive to try an imprint until I learned about Steve's methods...they clicked for me. I felt like it was something I could do, and hopefully do successfully. I could be wrong...this could all go to hell in a handbasket...but I"m gonna give it my best shot, and take everyone who's reading along for the ride

[wingnut]

I'll probably never meet you Ally, but I'm pretty sure I'd like you. I try to approach everything I do with "have a plan and stick to the plan". You seem to have the same mindset.