Must read books on raising imprints

[bobpayne]

A friend of mine wants to imprint a female aplomado this season. He asks for suggested reading material. Looking the bookcase and of course first thing that comes to mind is Harry McElroy and Desert Hiawking with a little help......and his newest book Desert hawking IV.

Raising and hunting an Aplo these are must reads.


North American Falconry Beebe and Webester

The Hunting Falcon. Bruce Haak

A Merlin for me. John Loft

Imprint accipter ll Mike McDermott

Help me with others.Thanks in advance

[rkumetz]

Is A Merlin for Me still in print?

NA Falconry doesn't have a lot of info on imprinting that reflects the most recent ideas about the subject.

A hunting falcon is to the point and good info.

How about the 4 Week Window?

[Tanner]

For imprint falcons you can't beat "High Flying Gyrfalcons" by Kent Christopher and Vic Hardaswick. They discuss gyrs, but the philosophy and approach are sound for all falcons. That approach is just about identical to what I was taught/learned/absorbed/adopted and I've never flown a gyr. And they discuss the whole picture - which it's hard to cover it all do when you get someone who hasn't developed an imprint falcon before. They really did a good job covering the big picture.

[WILL HUNT]

The aplo very different that all the other falcons. Typically I fly only imprint falcons because that is my preference but the aplo in my opinion is better as a chamber bird. Very similar to a Harris which I have flown as imprints with great success but a case where the benefit is not worth it. I would not recommend them as imprints unless wanted for making hybrids.

[bobpayne]

Ron, Tanner and Troy thanks for responding!

Ron and Tanner, both great reads that I didn't think about.

Troy am interested in your response as well.

Did you imprint the Aplomado and have problems with it, or are these hand me down hawks that you were hunting?
Were they duel imprints?
Were they hawks used for abatement?

Both the Aplomado that I have gotten that were imprinted by others and given to me around penning had no issues. I have also been given a couple chamber birds that had penned weeks before, again there were no issues with their training.

In defense of your writing, I have flown for abatement, some imprints, that were vocal and possessive of their food. If they were my only experience with imprint Aplomados, I wouldn't want to dedicate the time to imprint one.

In retrospect, were the issues I was having due to the other trainers and their training methods and use of the hawks, or due to them being duel imprints as I was told?

As you elude to the similarity to the Harris's, I have found the chamber Aplomado to bond quite well with its trainer in time, and one will second guess themselves, is it worth the effort to imprint?

[rkumetz]

Bob,
I think the clear advantage of imprinting falcons (as opposed to accipiters where there are benefits to socialization) is being able to have the bird on the wing a month or two sooner developing in a time frame that is similar to a wild bird. This is something that PeteJ has mentioned in another thread and the whole idea behind "The 4 Week Window". If you live in a place with seasons where the small birds are going to start to disappear in fall getting the bird going before the quarry base thins could be helpful. If you are going to fly a bird on a short season quarry (snipe and woodcock seasons are a month long here) then getting the bird in the groove before the season starts is a nice thing.

[bobpayne]

Ron, so glad that you brought up that point. I have neen running late with my peregrine this season. Had I got her as an imprint am thinking I would have had a much better season and hunting partner.

[WILL HUNT]

I briefly flew two female dual socialized females tha I acquired for breeding. Tame as puppy dogs in fact I am making hybrids with them now. Problem is when you reduce the weight while not vocal in the field they are very noisy and vocal at home. They go nuts when shown anything more than the smallest bit of food in the field. They resented the hood to the point that it was not worth the effort to continue since they do travel so well unhooked. These birds were acquired shortly after being hard penned. A couple of years ago I raised a tiercel from hatch and imprinted. As is my normal practice I hand feed them and keep them with me for complete socialization. I tame hack just before they can fly and they learn to fly in the field, my imprints have never been on a creance, they fly as soon as they are able and I fly for at least a month before reducing weight. Birds are fed all they want twice per day until they only want to eat once per day. The little guy hooded perfectly but other than that he developed the same behaviors as the two females. It may have something to do with the fact that they do not have the voracious appetite as a peregrine... I flew an anatum x Richardson imprint raise d from the egg and he would fly at 300g deadly on small birds and he would consume twice as much food per day and he never once screamed or carried. I have had imprints thermal at thousand of feet before any weight reduction, but at some point the weight needs to be trimmed. It seems to me that the amount of weight reduction required for these birds is closer to that of a Harris or a prairie than a Merlin or peregrine. That is when the mantling, food possessiveness and screaming begins. I sold one to my Jason jones and she was tame hacked all day every day for six or seven weeks and was catching wild birds before he reduced her weight. In the end he had to reduce the weight to the point that the results were the same... Still much to be learned but thus far from what I have seen is that if the birds need to have the weight reduced as much as they appear to it does not appear than my normal procedure has had produced the perfect imprint. I do know that imprinting by another and then going to a new owner gets good results with peregrines and Gyr x peregrines... Perhaps it would work well with aplos as well, only time will tell.

Troy

Ron, Tanner and Troy thanks for responding!

Ron and Tanner, both great reads that I didn't think about.

Troy am interested in your response as well.

Did you imprint the Aplomado and have problems with it, or are these hand me down hawks that you were hunting?
Were they duel imprints?
Were they hawks used for abatement?

Both the Aplomado that I have gotten that were imprinted by others and given to me around penning had no issues. I have also been given a couple chamber birds that had penned weeks before, again there were no issues with their training.

In defense of your writing, I have flown for abatement, some imprints, that were vocal and possessive of their food. If they were my only experience with imprint Aplomados, I wouldn't want to dedicate the time to imprint one.

In retrospect, were the issues I was having due to the other trainers and their training methods and use of the hawks, or due to them being duel imprints as I was told?

As you elude to the similarity to the Harris's, I have found the chamber Aplomado to bond quite well with its trainer in time, and one will second guess themselves, is it worth the effort to imprint?

[rkumetz]

I do know that imprinting by another and then going to a new owner gets good results with peregrines and Gyr x peregrines... Perhaps it would work well with aplos as well, only time will tell.
Troy

Has anyone tried having someone else imprint their aplo? I believe that the dual socialized one that Harry flies was raised by someone else. He seems to be more enthusiastic than most regarding that process so you may be on to something.

[WILL HUNT]

I think they would need to be raised and tame hacked before going to new owner. I may try it.

Has anyone tried having someone else imprint their aplo? I believe that the dual socialized one that Harry flies was raised by someone else. He seems to be more enthusiastic than most regarding that process so you may be on to something.

[hcmcelroy]

I like the dual imprint because they can be flown and tuned in before quail season opens. With care you will know their weight range by the end of summer. I fly them each morning for at least an hour in a tame hack. They will breed naturally and are easy to manage but chamber raised are good too. It is more critical to watch weight control with the chamber hawks or they can disperse. I've chased a few down by air.

The problem with dual imprinting or imprinting is that like the accipiter every detail should be watched carefully and finding a breeder who can invest the time can be a problem. All in all the chamber raised is easier and requires less skill. The weight control is about like the accipiters and HHs to get the best of them and consistent hawking their weight on 95% of them they are flown a bit thin.

Harry.

Harry

[WILL HUNT]

Harry,

We're the dual imprints quiet at home in the mews? The one I imprinted was quite while flying but very vocal at home.

I like the dual imprint because they can be flown and tuned in before quail season opens. With care you will know their weight range by the end of summer. I fly them each morning for at least an hour in a tame hack. They will breed naturally and are easy to manage but chamber raised are good too. It is more critical to watch weight control with the chamber hawks or they can disperse. I've chased a few down by air.

The problem with dual imprinting or imprinting is that like the accipiter every detail should be watched carefully and finding a breeder who can invest the time can be a problem. All in all the chamber raised is easier and requires less skill. The weight control is about like the accipiters and HHs to get the best of them and consistent hawking their weight on 95% of them they are flown a bit thin.

Harry.

Harry

[hcmcelroy]

Troy,

Yes, talkative in and around the mew but quiet in the field. Often they talked quietly just as they came to fist in the field but no screaming during the hunt.

Harry.

[WILL HUNT]

perhaps it is unavoidable, it was for me. do you feel carrying is more of a problem with the imprints?

QUOTE=hcmcelroy;285676]Troy,

Yes, talkative in and around the mew but quiet in the field. Often they talked quietly just as they came to fist in the field but no screaming during the hunt.

Harry.[/QUOTE]

[hcmcelroy]

Troy,

Carrying has been a problem with the aplos I've flown and I expect it. I've read that the imprints are more prone to carry but I have not had that experience. My practice is to allow them to break in and start eating before the approach. I try to take one quail per day so its all over at that point. With quail they usually walk the prey to the nearest cover and break in. If they take a small bird we usually allow them to eat if they resist our approach because if they are upset they may carry and here that can be dangerous.

Harry.

[WILL HUNT]

I may try flying a pair at some point. Not sure if it will be this season though.

Troy,

Carrying has been a problem with the aplos I've flown and I expect it. I've read that the imprints are more prone to carry but I have not had that experience. My practice is to allow them to break in and start eating before the approach. I try to take one quail per day so its all over at that point. With quail they usually walk the prey to the nearest cover and break in. If they take a small bird we usually allow them to eat if they resist our approach because if they are upset they may carry and here that can be dangerous.

Harry.

[hcmcelroy]

Troy,

We have had loads of fun with a pair but it was necessary to have two falconers. A tiercel and falcon work together whereas two females or two males go for different birds.

Harry.

[WILL HUNT]

I have a bunch here so I could go with any combination. When you say two of the same sex go for different birds what does that mean? Are you saying they hunt separate birds that flush and don't hunt cooperatively? I normally fly by myself and if I kept a pair they would be housed together or within sight off ach other. I just had a long conversation with a buddy of mine who I sold an imprint that I raised last year. I raised it and tame hacked it for about a week before he took him. He had problems with the bird when he got his weight down to 220g, and finally after he ran out of time due to work constraints decided just to fly the bird around his property at 270g which is essentially no weight reduction. The bird was much enter at that weight and although he was only hunting his own homing pigeons on his property had very nice imprint. The bird is quite in the house as a matter of fact it sleeps in his bedroom.he walks in the fron door for the evening and te bird will fly into the bedroom to his perch.he is looking forward to next season when th bird is more mature and he has more time to hawk. He seems to think about 250g will be a good weight for te bird to e hungry enough to hunt, but not develop bad manners.

Troy,

We have had loads of fun with a pair but it was necessary to have two falconers. A tiercel and falcon work together whereas two females or two males go for different birds.

Harry.

[WILL HUNT]

Just re-read your message about the hunting pairs and realize you did mean that same sex do ot hunt cooperatively. I guess if I try it I will try a male/female combination.

I have a bunch here so I could go with any combination. When you say two of the same sex go for different birds what does that mean? Are you saying they hunt separate birds that flush and don't hunt cooperatively? I normally fly by myself and if I kept a pair they would be housed together or within sight off ach other. I just had a long conversation with a buddy of mine who I sold an imprint that I raised last year. I raised it and tame hacked it for about a week before he took him. He had problems with the bird when he got his weight down to 220g, and finally after he ran out of time due to work constraints decided just to fly the bird around his property at 270g which is essentially no weight reduction. The bird was much enter at that weight and although he was only hunting his own homing pigeons on his property had very nice imprint. The bird is quite in the house as a matter of fact it sleeps in his bedroom.he walks in the fron door for the evening and te bird will fly into the bedroom to his perch.he is looking forward to next season when th bird is more mature and he has more time to hawk. He seems to think about 250g will be a good weight for te bird to e hungry enough to hunt, but not develop bad manners.

[hcmcelroy]

Troy,

Yes, two of the same sex often select different birds to fly. With all our predators that can be a gut wrenching experience. I well remember two tiercels I had that went for different birds and I started to walk for the far bird then recalled that the one right in front of me was the better hawk and stayed with him. I stewed for a while as he ate when the far hawk cam sailing in above and brought his kill right in at my feet to eat.

Here Jamaica Smith flew a tiercel and I a falcon and they usually flew the same quail but often enough they went for separate birds so we separated. The problem was that my pointer liked to run with her dog and I was left without help in relocating and reflushing. In this desert that is no simple matter.

As I'm sure you know some aplos tend to disperse if flown a bit heavy so experimenting with weight after the beginning of the season can come with a price. From my experience 250 is a good average weight for a tiercel.

I know I'm preaching to the choir but the aplo is about like the Cooper's in their inherent differences. As one British wag once said the difference within species is greater than between species. The aplo is a good example of that. To know one is not necessarily valid in judging the species.

Harry.