Life of an adult imprint

[kitana]

Hi guys,

With all these talks lately about imprinting new birds, be they falcons, gos, or sharpies, and the very real prospect of raising my own imprint gos next season, my head got turning.

We talk and talk about the ways to imprint them, go Recipe or OC, handfeed or not, tame hack, wild hack, AI, etc. We talk about how to hunt them, hopefully higher in weight, let them develop by themselves or not, etc.

But there is one thing I almost never read about: it's how we live with these birds once the imprinting process and growing up thing is done. How do we deal with an imprint in regular, day-to-day life of a falconer and his/her bird? Are things done differently only for the growing-up period, or do the falconer have to adjust and change things through the whole life of the bird? Keep it in the house for an example, etc?

I am afraid I'll get a single answer that says "no, nothin's different", and that will be the end of this thread. But I want to make sure I've got all bases covered before I jump in with no way back. Are there differences in a falconry bird's day to day life inherent to how the bird was raised?

[PeteJ]

You'll find that life with the imprint is much more casual in some ways, but infinitely more complex in other ways. The imprint comes with many facets that are more distinctive than with chamber raised or passage birds. The most obvious facet is that of tameness. The level of this is quite striking in some birds, particularly with the accipiters. But tameness doesn't go quite far enough to explain the depth of comfort, how at ease they are with just the day to day handling. It has almost nothing to do with weight either, they are just that at ease, that 'natural' in this captive environment they have been raised in.
As the person that has raised it, you know basically the complete history of that bird, from when it stood up, to when it first gained lift with its wings, to when it makes it first attempts to kill prey items (and the not so much prey items that usually are their first focus). You see them learn about things to be wary of, such as those large, slow flying, Tarantula Hawk wasps that have a loud slow obvious flight with contrasting colors of black and orange (Warning...Danger Will Robinson), yet the young bird cannot stop its curiosity and follows through only to find the barb of the stinger, the searing pain, the swelling. How many does it take for you bird to learn from such incidents? Sometimes not more than once.
When the bird ages, and sexual maturity comes on, a whole new subset of behaviors are introduced that cannot usually be denied with much success. Its part of the deal, you have to understand your role and deal with it. But once you do, you will have encouraged a bond that is almost unbreakable and often times hard for another to overcome. You will always be their first true infatuation, and they will recognize you in minutes after years of absence.
On the good side, you will have their 'affection' which is interesting in itself. But, you can also draw their ire and aggressive side, which, due to the level of comfort, can result in some serious tantrums or dominance issues. You can run the entire gamut of their emotional side. You must always be aware that taking and raising an imprint means you are in a relationship, a serious in depth relationship.
It is that last reference that really hits home when you have an imprint that you have nurtured and raised, perhaps for many years, but not always as the years have little to do with how you will feel, when there is a tragic death or illness. I believe that as falconers we do have to deal with loss and death, its part of this lifestyle. But, in many cases, I have seen grown men and women brought to tears and grieving to their core after the passing of a beloved imprint. I also believe that while you can grow attached to a passage bird or chamber raised eyas, the level of attachment to these is not the same. Its not that they aren't better birds or something like that, its just that the level of commitment and attachment is....shallower I guess. They are more like acquaintances, rather than like the relationship with a child you have raised, a family member or lifelong friend, which the imprint has more of that feel to them. I'm just saying, prepare yourself for that, it can and will be brutal.
The sense of accomplishment you get from dealing with imprints though is quite rewarding. When you hatch out the first egg that you inseminated via artificial insemination, when you watch that bird grow and become a successful hunter, and all because of your relationship with its mother which you helped to shape into the bird she has become....its really something. I truly believe that it is only with the imprint that you truly understand what their lives are like, to the best of our ability anyway. With them what you see is what you get. They have no facade that you can see in birds that were raised in other ways. That also means that you can learn a lot about the mastery of manipulation, how decisively devious they actually may have to be to be a successful predator. You will learn to applaud their efforts even if you may cut them off at the pass so their efforts to manipulate you are effectively squashed. You will gain valuable insight that can help you with whatever style of raising you do in the future. For many, they absolutely refuse and should not have imprints for various reasons. But for those that can and do understand them, they have almost no choice but to continue to hone their skills with the imprint because anything else just won't do.

[Paul Strydom]

Great post Pete, I did a female Minor a few years back but chickened out early in her development for reasons you state. Every time she went walkabout she found people and in Africa that will get you eaten. I stopped flying her but realised a month or two later that the baby stage does pass and if I pushed through she probs would still be with me today. I ended up giving her to Tim Wagner and I believe she is showing promise for future AI. Im itching for another, who knows maybe this season.
Have you had any experience with raising 2 birds at a later age? Say around 18 days. I see that's how Fran from Spain does his Birds.

[broken feather]

You'll find that life with the imprint is much more casual in some ways, but infinitely more complex in other ways. The imprint comes with many facets that are more distinctive than with chamber raised or passage birds. The most obvious facet is that of tameness. The level of this is quite striking in some birds, particularly with the accipiters. But tameness doesn't go quite far enough to explain the depth of comfort, how at ease they are with just the day to day handling. It has almost nothing to do with weight either, they are just that at ease, that 'natural' in this captive environment they have been raised in.
As the person that has raised it, you know basically the complete history of that bird, from when it stood up, to when it first gained lift with its wings, to when it makes it first attempts to kill prey items (and the not so much prey items that usually are their first focus). You see them learn about things to be wary of, such as those large, slow flying, Tarantula Hawk wasps that have a loud slow obvious flight with contrasting colors of black and orange (Warning...Danger Will Robinson), yet the young bird cannot stop its curiosity and follows through only to find the barb of the stinger, the searing pain, the swelling. How many does it take for you bird to learn from such incidents? Sometimes not more than once.
When the bird ages, and sexual maturity comes on, a whole new subset of behaviors are introduced that cannot usually be denied with much success. Its part of the deal, you have to understand your role and deal with it. But once you do, you will have encouraged a bond that is almost unbreakable and often times hard for another to overcome. You will always be their first true infatuation, and they will recognize you in minutes after years of absence.
On the good side, you will have their 'affection' which is interesting in itself. But, you can also draw their ire and aggressive side, which, due to the level of comfort, can result in some serious tantrums or dominance issues. You can run the entire gamut of their emotional side. You must always be aware that taking and raising an imprint means you are in a relationship, a serious in depth relationship.
It is that last reference that really hits home when you have an imprint that you have nurtured and raised, perhaps for many years, but not always as the years have little to do with how you will feel, when there is a tragic death or illness. I believe that as falconers we do have to deal with loss and death, its part of this lifestyle. But, in many cases, I have seen grown men and women brought to tears and grieving to their core after the passing of a beloved imprint. I also believe that while you can grow attached to a passage bird or chamber raised eyas, the level of attachment to these is not the same. Its not that they aren't better birds or something like that, its just that the level of commitment and attachment is....shallower I guess. They are more like acquaintances, rather than like the relationship with a child you have raised, a family member or lifelong friend, which the imprint has more of that feel to them. I'm just saying, prepare yourself for that, it can and will be brutal.
The sense of accomplishment you get from dealing with imprints though is quite rewarding. When you hatch out the first egg that you inseminated via artificial insemination, when you watch that bird grow and become a successful hunter, and all because of your relationship with its mother which you helped to shape into the bird she has become....its really something. I truly believe that it is only with the imprint that you truly understand what their lives are like, to the best of our ability anyway. With them what you see is what you get. They have no facade that you can see in birds that were raised in other ways. That also means that you can learn a lot about the mastery of manipulation, how decisively devious they actually may have to be to be a successful predator. You will learn to applaud their efforts even if you may cut them off at the pass so their efforts to manipulate you are effectively squashed. You will gain valuable insight that can help you with whatever style of raising you do in the future. For many, they absolutely refuse and should not have imprints for various reasons. But for those that can and do understand them, they have almost no choice but to continue to hone their skills with the imprint because anything else just won't do.

Pete, your the manThe only think I can say more, I have seen some very good Falconer drop out of falconry after their loss of a bird!!!

[joekoz]

Audrey & Pete:

Audrey thanks for starting this thread. I think that it will help many of us to gain more insight to Imprints.

Pete I always tune in when you post in response to a thread. For me, your responses always seem to exude lots of knowledge/experience, you are very thorough, and have great written communication skills.

You most likely are aware of my thread on Imprinting/Tame Hacking 2 Tiercel Goshawks. http://www.nafex.net/showthread.php?t=17667

Jersey Blue my partner in this project has prior experience with both Imprinting and Tame Hacking. This is my first experience with both. So I have a question that I have some insight into from reading, but think that it relates to Audrey’s question and this thread.

The boys came from Barry. He raised them and transferred them to Jersey Blue and me at ages 19 and 21 days old. Jersey Blue then had the boys for 21 days and transferred them to me at 40 and 42 days old. During the 3 week period he had the boys they were exposed to him, his wife, and his 2 kids. In addition, I took them for 4 days during that period to get some face time with them and expose them to my dog and lots of time traveling around on the passenger side seat of my truck.

Since they arrived at my place, I’ve been the one managing their daily routine (releasing them out of the mews every morning, pulling them down at the end of the day, and some minor interaction throughout the day.

So here it is question:

Given the above scenario when did the boys “imprint” and who did they “imprint” on?

[PeteJ]

Joe..more than likely each other if they were in constant association during the time. Back in the day, we were led to believe that Goshawks imprinted hardest from about 10 days on, even earlier if you could manage it. By the time they were bursting their sheathes on their primaries and tail, usually that was dicey as far as whether it could produce a 'misprint'.
I would say that if they were together this whole time, slept together, fed together, etc., then likely they will not be hard human imprints, but instead will be naturally imprinted on their own species as they have been seeing other Goshawks (each other) the whole time. Sometimes such birds are spoken of as 'dual imprints' or 'misprints'. I hope they turn out good for you, but often such birds can become very difficult to deal with as they can suffer from confusion of how they should act in a situation...i.e.: should I be calm because I'm a human imprint? should I be fearful because I'm not a human imprint and my hunger isn't driving me as hard because my weight is too high because I am quite tame? Much of this also depends heavily on the demeanor of the bird in the first place. Some birds are much calmer and more flexible in their response than some others.
I have spoken of this before, but, with raptors there is a suggestion that they are already hard wired to know what they are, they're born with it. But, if taken early enough and kept in close association with humans or dogs or whatever, that they can be fooled into thinking they are confused and that they should in fact think of themselves as human, dog or whatever. This works only during the imprinting window of when they are growing up. Once grown, they tend to remain what they were fixated on, AS LONG AS THIS ASSOCIATION CONTINUES. This is why there are also findings that imprinting can be reverse but no longer allowing the imprint to see the 'parent', and instead force them into a situation where they only see another raptor of their same species ideally. This ability to reverse the abnormal imprinting appears to support the idea of the hard wiring that can be modified but only by constant support. Reversing it can take years though. So it should be noted that to imprint or not to imprint should be considered very carefully by the person pondering it, and these people need to assess their affinity for dealing with the imprint in the potential long term. To get the most out of the imprint relationship (the rewards) you need to be the sort of person that is attentive and giving of your time to the imprint, particularly for the first six months, and then again when it comes time to develop the adult sexual relationship with them..of which you or someone else is likely going to need to a be part of to reap any reward from it.

[PeteJ]

Pete, your the manThe only think I can say more, I have seen some very good Falconer drop out of falconry after their loss of a bird!!!

Been there, almost done that myself more than a few times. It can be tough to get back on that horse after you have that sort of loss. I've had two that were particularly brutal and so sad (I know, here's your tissue you jackwagon!lol) and I almost quit then.
For me, I started with eyas birds, even some were imprints (RTs). So when, as time went on, I started to work with passage birds, I found that it was not the same at all. Different, not worse, just not what I was used to. There was very little sense of accomplishment beyond the initial pulling the bird from the sky and then being able to release it again to do what it had already been doing before I captured it. For many people that's a lot, I understand that. But for myself, this appeared to be a very small thing considered what I know was the motivation of these individual birds...they were hungry...A + B=C. With imprints it is much more than this. You are responsible for ALL of their experience, good and bad. You have to think quite a bit on how best to accomplish the goal of making a well rounded individual.

[PeteJ]

Great post Pete, I did a female Minor a few years back but chickened out early in her development for reasons you state. Every time she went walkabout she found people and in Africa that will get you eaten. I stopped flying her but realised a month or two later that the baby stage does pass and if I pushed through she probs would still be with me today. I ended up giving her to Tim Wagner and I believe she is showing promise for future AI. Im itching for another, who knows maybe this season.
Have you had any experience with raising 2 birds at a later age? Say around 18 days. I see that's how Fran from Spain does his Birds.

Depends a lot on the species. Some are more flexible about their imprinting window (for instance a Barbary is naturally more demonstrative and accepting than say a Peregrine, and a Prairie is even more flexible than a Barbary) than others. Also the bigger the bird (Peregrine vs Merlin) the later the imprinting window remains open. A Merlin will need to be pulled for imprinting previous to about 12 days for it to be the most effective. A Peregrine you may have until it nearer that 18 day mark.
As for have I done it? Yes with a couple of Goshawks (not together...two different circumstances) that were actually older than I wanted when I found the nest, but I had little choice as I had no alternate nests. One bird wasn't terrible but ended up dying of Asper quite early (my first Gos), the other was a disaster. I would not ideally pull anything that late if it can be managed. Depending on the species, 18 days is as old as I would go, any later and you start to have misprinting problems. Such birds are better left with the parents and then pulled at nearer to fledging (chamber raised captive or fledgling aged from the wild).
I've always been a bit puzzled why we think we can have it all....although I understand that is a completely human failing. But my approach is, either imprint or don't. Hoping for a 'dual' imprint is just wishful thinking. You can have a nice tame eyas without it being imprinted. But hoping that it will be both an imprint or natural breeder down the line, it just doesn't turn out that way. They either are or aren't imprinted.

[keitht]

What a great question and thread Kitana! Somehow I missed it until now.

And I have to say that Pete's first reply is probably the single best, most intuitive, insightful reply I have ever read regarding the imprint! Pete - I'm copying that quote for posterity. And I concur completely and have went thru it more that once regarding how hard it can be to loose an imprint, especially one that has been with you for years and how it effects you more so that losing the passage bird.

Joe: Regarding your pair at hack: Part of what's going to play into this is how the birds were handled before you received them at 19 / 21 days of age? If Barry worked them as imprints, I think you will be good to go. What I base this on is my experiences imprinting single coops and imprinting pairs of coops that were later hacked.

Kitana wrote
But there is one thing I almost never read about: it's how we live with these birds once the imprinting process and growing up thing is done. How do we deal with an imprint in regular, day-to-day life of a falconer and his/her bird? Are things done differently only for the growing-up period, or do the falconer have to adjust and change things through the whole life of the bird? Keep it in the house for an example, etc?

One point that I didn't see (or missed) that should be mentioned is this: An imprint is completely mold-able and impressionable. More so than say a passage bird. You will be molding and shaping its behavior in infinite ways by the little things you do from day to day. The passage bird knows full well what it can do. You will be the one that shapes and convinces your imprint what it is capable of.

And one other point I want to throw out - And every falconer develops his own ideas on this stuff, but here's my take: When working with imprints, I like to saturate them with exposure up to hard-penning. Then afterwards, my preference these days is to (the majority of the time) keep them tethered in my living room for the duration of their first season. Then the second season, I may want to move them outside. So I like to keep that exposure and contact to people going longer than the original imprinting period that everyone spends 90% of their time discussing and that Kitana alluded to above. If I do that, I can expect an imprint that will be highly manageable for the duration of its life.

I certainly wouldn't argue that my 1st year, in the house exposure method is the only way to do business. Harry for instance does things a lot different.

I've found that most any time spent with an imprint pays dividends down the road. It's most important early on, but continues to pay off thru the life of the bird. But goses that have went thru this method of continued exposure thru their first year go on to have a really deep-seated tameness.

[hcmcelroy]

Audrey and Keith,

A most interesting question and like skinning a cat we all approach maintenance training differently. Allow me a brief outline to start. I've imprinted Cooper's since the 1960s after reading about imprinting the Gos in Webster's book. In Arizona we pull male Cooper's at 16 days of age and females at 18. That is the stage when they are just entering the first stage of withdrawal...in other words they are just beginning to demonstrate fear.
They are brought in the home and socalized to us dogs, and horses. Some imprint on all of the above.
At the stage when they begin to move about and jump out of the nest pan they are transferred to the mew and I spend about an hour per day plus the time to feed. Once flying well they are started flying outside and then tame hacked under close supervision.
They are handled only during the hunt and not even trained to perches around the home.
Now for your question...after the season closes they are inched up in weight only slightly and called to the fist or lure, weighed and fed to that weight daily. If they are not maintained in this manner they will withdraw and as Pete said develop into misprints. They will change in personality and never return to the same hawk you knew previously. So a person who imprints an accipiter must continue to handle them almost daily (or have a friend) or personality will change with likely aggression.
There you have it my minimalist practices basically the same over the decades...unless you consider telemetry :-)
Falcons, by the way, are quite different and demonstrate greatly reduced withdrawal.

Harry.

[keitht]

Harry:
I agree that the imprint that is chambered and fed up and left alone, especially in that first season, may really not return to where he was originally. But I've had older goses, that were left alone except for short interactions during feeding, that did seem to keep that deep down tameness. Keeping them in my living room, in one sense may be the lazy man's method insomuch as on days when I don't have time to spend with a bird, she still gets considerable contact with family. If I were retired, I could make time daily to spend time with a chambered bird. But when you're at work most of every day, there are days that your schedule won't allow it.

[broken feather]

Pete, what's the old's imprint you have had or know of(species)? Also the species that you think you get more out of imprinting? I would think any of the Accipiter's

[PeteJ]

Pete, what's the old's imprint you have had or know of(species)? Also the species that you think you get more out of imprinting? I would think any of the Accipiter's

Oldest I've had so far was a Teita female that died recently at the end of her 22nd year. I've had a couple of Goshawks that went until their late teens. I'm sure there are some eagles that have gone longer than that, and Buteos and Parabuteos.
Imprinting definitely makes life easier on accipiters and owls. Buteos and Eagles and Parabuteos it probably doesn't aid you all that much in the handling side of things and actually may be a deterrent to safety in those as imprinting does take the regulator off them and they are by nature forceful and aggressive birds when they feel like dominating their trainer. Normally they are relatively mild to handle when raised in other ways, so unless there was some specific reason (breeding hybrids or something) there would not be any real advantage to doing those types using human imprinting.
Falcons it can help a little, depending on what you hope to accomplish. For breeding purposes, birds such as Merlins, that you wouldn't think would be all that aggressive as pairs, are in fact sometimes extremely aggressive towards each other, with the jack paying the lethal penalty for it if he's in a confined chamber with a female that has a headache. Normally this sort of thing doesn't happen much with Peregrines for instance. So, generally Peregrines are not imprinted that much anymore as they breed well as natural pairs. They also have a stoic personality type if you will, that is not particularly enhanced or changed by imprinting them on humans. Yet, birds such as Prairies, which are not particularly known for having absolutely wonderful and stoic personalities (understatement), can have radically different personalities if imprinted and raised properly.
I guess the aspect to keep in mind is that on a species to species level, there are differences that can be generalized about each species, even when there are individuals that are the exception to those generalities. So, a person contemplating imprinting a bird should weigh many variables and assess these based on the goals they hope to achieve down the line with that species.

[broken feather]

Oldest I've had so far was a Teita female that died recently at the end of her 22nd year. I've had a couple of Goshawks that went until their late teens. I'm sure there are some eagles that have gone longer than that, and Buteos and Parabuteos.
Imprinting definitely makes life easier on accipiters and owls. Buteos and Eagles and Parabuteos it probably doesn't aid you all that much in the handling side of things and actually may be a deterrent to safety in those as imprinting does take the regulator off them and they are by nature forceful and aggressive birds when they feel like dominating their trainer. Normally they are relatively mild to handle when raised in other ways, so unless there was some specific reason (breeding hybrids or something) there would not be any real advantage to doing those types using human imprinting.
Falcons it can help a little, depending on what you hope to accomplish. For breeding purposes, birds such as Merlins, that you wouldn't think would be all that aggressive as pairs, are in fact sometimes extremely aggressive towards each other, with the jack paying the lethal penalty for it if he's in a confined chamber with a female that has a headache. Normally this sort of thing doesn't happen much with Peregrines for instance. So, generally Peregrines are not imprinted that much anymore as they breed well as natural pairs. They also have a stoic personality type if you will, that is not particularly enhanced or changed by imprinting them on humans. Yet, birds such as Prairies, which are not particularly known for having absolutely wonderful and stoic personalities (understatement), can have radically different personalities if imprinted and raised properly.
I guess the aspect to keep in mind is that on a species to species level, there are differences that can be generalized about each species, even when there are individuals that are the exception to those generalities. So, a person contemplating imprinting a bird should weigh many variables and assess these based on the goals they hope to achieve down the line with that species.

Did they change with age on temperament??

[PeteJ]

Did they change with age on temperament??

Nope. The first year is critical. Usually you can tell what they will be like for the rest of their lives by how they act even in the first six months, barring any serious threats to their development (such as an injury that requires them to be hurt and cast on a regular basis which can scar them for life in some species...accipiters in particular).
But all of the best ones remain friendly and playful up until the day they die in many cases.

[goshawkr]

Hi guys,

With all these talks lately about imprinting new birds, be they falcons, gos, or sharpies, and the very real prospect of raising my own imprint gos next season, my head got turning.

We talk and talk about the ways to imprint them, go Recipe or OC, handfeed or not, tame hack, wild hack, AI, etc. We talk about how to hunt them, hopefully higher in weight, let them develop by themselves or not, etc.

But there is one thing I almost never read about: it's how we live with these birds once the imprinting process and growing up thing is done. How do we deal with an imprint in regular, day-to-day life of a falconer and his/her bird? Are things done differently only for the growing-up period, or do the falconer have to adjust and change things through the whole life of the bird? Keep it in the house for an example, etc?

I am afraid I'll get a single answer that says "no, nothin's different", and that will be the end of this thread. But I want to make sure I've got all bases covered before I jump in with no way back. Are there differences in a falconry bird's day to day life inherent to how the bird was raised?

Hey Audrey...

Great question. Funny, your right that this never seems to be discussed....

This should come as no surprise, but the answer is different for everyone who has an imprint accipiter. I have a friend who spends almost as much time with his imprint goshawk in the off season as when hunting. He is retired and has the time though. As one would expect, his goshawks are the tamest I have ever seen - tamer than most parrots.

Personally, I take a mild hands off approach during most of the molt with my imprint goshawks. I do play a few casual shaping games, like making sure that when feeding time comes they are not acting aggressive towards me (if they are, I leave and they get fed later). I check on them ~daily and make sure all is well, but that is about all I do until its time to begin the following hunting season.

My hawks aren't quite as tame as my friend, but they do ok.

[hcmcelroy]

Keith,

I believe we are delivering the same sermon. By having daily contact with the older gos in feeding you are maintaining reinforcement and taming. And by taking it into the home there is loads of exposure. Right?

Harry.

[keitht]

Harry - No disagreements here.

[Paul Strydom]

Depends a lot on the species. Some are more flexible about their imprinting window (for instance a Barbary is naturally more demonstrative and accepting than say a Peregrine, and a Prairie is even more flexible than a Barbary) than others. Also the bigger the bird (Peregrine vs Merlin) the later the imprinting window remains open. A Merlin will need to be pulled for imprinting previous to about 12 days for it to be the most effective. A Peregrine you may have until it nearer that 18 day mark.
As for have I done it? Yes with a couple of Goshawks (not together...two different circumstances) that were actually older than I wanted when I found the nest, but I had little choice as I had no alternate nests. One bird wasn't terrible but ended up dying of Asper quite early (my first Gos), the other was a disaster. I would not ideally pull anything that late if it can be managed. Depending on the species, 18 days is as old as I would go, any later and you start to have misprinting problems. Such birds are better left with the parents and then pulled at nearer to fledging (chamber raised captive or fledgling aged from the wild).
I've always been a bit puzzled why we think we can have it all....although I understand that is a completely human failing. But my approach is, either imprint or don't. Hoping for a 'dual' imprint is just wishful thinking. You can have a nice tame eyas without it being imprinted. But hoping that it will be both an imprint or natural breeder down the line, it just doesn't turn out that way. They either are or aren't imprinted.

Thanks Pete.

[carlosR]

I've been thinking about this thread and what I might add. I'm not sure if my gos qualifies as an adult imprint yet, she's last years hatch. I have now taken her through a short tame hack, first hunting season, moult, and now preparing for our second season.
Before taking on an imprint I looked long and hard at my commitment level to this. It's not an on-again, off-again kind of relationship. At the very least you are essentially stuck with a bird for many years and at best, well that's easy to see.
Managing my bird as an adult is time-consuming, she demands daily time and affection as well as feeding and housing. But it's worth it, just be sure it's something you are committed to and your life will build around your hawk and her needs.

[Lowachi]

don't know how I missed this either. You definitely put it eloquently Pete.... and some off the most crushing times of my life have been the lose of my imprints, particularly my tiercel anatum. not the time or the effort that went into him, just him and not hearing him call me every morning.

[Ally]

Excellent thread, Audrey! As I enter my second year with my first imprint, this is very valuable information for me as well!

[kitana]

Wow, I kinda forgot about this thread until recently, thanks to all of you for your valuable input!

So in resume, life with an imprint will imply more daily interaction than with a non-imprint, but not necessarily up to the point of having the hawk in house all the time, did I get it right?

Not being able to release an imprint is not an issue here in Québec, we can't release any of our hawks anyway since we don't have wild take, all are captive bred. Buying a hawk here is a life-long commitment anyway, or at least until we can change this law but I don't see that happening for at least many, many years...

[goshawkr]

So in summary, life with an imprint will imply more daily interaction than with a non-imprint, but not necessarily up to the point of having the hawk in house all the time, did I get it right?

Forgive me for correcting your English, but your French roots showed there for a moment.

I think I would say that there really is no difference inherent in keeping an imprint vs a non-imprint during the off season.

Imprints focus their social desires on people, but hawks are not social animals to the extent that they will suffer mentally if they do not have social time. Even the really social ones like Harris' hawks can handle a lot of alone time without trouble. They do like it, they do seek it, and maybe even need it. But its not a primary need. They are very like cats in that regard - social animals but mentally very well equipt to handle alone time.

If you want to socialize with an imprint during the off season it will be better for both of you, but this often can be no more than just a few minutes here and there throughout the day.

[RT Alison]

My little imprint coops I have had since he was less than a week old is much different than any other bird I have worked with... which hasn't been many. He's as much a personal companion as he is a hunting bird. The "team" concept extends far beyond the field. You get used to the idea of wherever I go, he goes. Place your two fingers high up under your bird's folded wing up into the armpit. Mine doesn't bate, bite, nip or foot me when I do this. It's astounding how easy it is to fit a trackpack on a hard imprint, unhooded sitting on a bowperch with company around. On the other hand, let him see a starling or his lure and in an instant he becomes satan in a feathered suit. Our time together isn't as much a demand now that he's hard penned and hunting, but it is by choice. I think it boils down to the strength of the bond working both ways. I enjoy our time together as much as he does. That includes in the house, car, office, mews, weathering and fields. The real eye opener is when everything is calm and I'm standing by his high long mews perch. Invariably he will move and perch closest to me on his own, then settle in comfortably for the duration.

[kitana]

Forgive me for correcting your English, but your French roots showed there for a moment.

Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! How??? lol

[Fwanck]

Lolll Gotcha!

Thanks for the valuable info guy's! I also consider an imprint Goshawk. If information can be found on the right way to imprint and how mutch commitement it takes, long term management was not far from a guess for me... What I understand is the falconner, again, get what he puts in... the best would be to keep the bird in the house with max social interaction... Letting the hawk alone in his mew and feeding trough a chute will result in a loss of tameness for sure and may end in territoriality . Just by giving a minimum time each day for feeding and interacting with the bird will ensure the imprint bond will stay forever and it is just logical to do it after so mutch dedication of imprinting proprely.

I have a question thought... Keeping an imprint goshawk hog fat in his mews to make sure he gets trough Canadian winter proprely will affect for sure his tameness but at witch point? Would the bird still be social? handleable to take it at another place for feeding to make sure territoriality does not occurs in the mew? Or some weight management will be neccesary?

[Tim Jessell]

You'll find that life with the imprint is much more casual in some ways, but infinitely more complex in other ways. The imprint comes with many facets that are more distinctive than with chamber raised or passage birds. The most obvious facet is that of tameness. The level of this is quite striking in some birds, particularly with the accipiters. But tameness doesn't go quite far enough to explain the depth of comfort, how at ease they are with just the day to day handling. It has almost nothing to do with weight either, they are just that at ease, that 'natural' in this captive environment they have been raised in.
As the person that has raised it, you know basically the complete history of that bird, from when it stood up, to when it first gained lift with its wings, to when it makes it first attempts to kill prey items (and the not so much prey items that usually are their first focus). You see them learn about things to be wary of, such as those large, slow flying, Tarantula Hawk wasps that have a loud slow obvious flight with contrasting colors of black and orange (Warning...Danger Will Robinson), yet the young bird cannot stop its curiosity and follows through only to find the barb of the stinger, the searing pain, the swelling. How many does it take for you bird to learn from such incidents? Sometimes not more than once.
When the bird ages, and sexual maturity comes on, a whole new subset of behaviors are introduced that cannot usually be denied with much success. Its part of the deal, you have to understand your role and deal with it. But once you do, you will have encouraged a bond that is almost unbreakable and often times hard for another to overcome. You will always be their first true infatuation, and they will recognize you in minutes after years of absence.
On the good side, you will have their 'affection' which is interesting in itself. But, you can also draw their ire and aggressive side, which, due to the level of comfort, can result in some serious tantrums or dominance issues. You can run the entire gamut of their emotional side. You must always be aware that taking and raising an imprint means you are in a relationship, a serious in depth relationship.
It is that last reference that really hits home when you have an imprint that you have nurtured and raised, perhaps for many years, but not always as the years have little to do with how you will feel, when there is a tragic death or illness. I believe that as falconers we do have to deal with loss and death, its part of this lifestyle. But, in many cases, I have seen grown men and women brought to tears and grieving to their core after the passing of a beloved imprint. I also believe that while you can grow attached to a passage bird or chamber raised eyas, the level of attachment to these is not the same. Its not that they aren't better birds or something like that, its just that the level of commitment and attachment is....shallower I guess. They are more like acquaintances, rather than like the relationship with a child you have raised, a family member or lifelong friend, which the imprint has more of that feel to them. I'm just saying, prepare yourself for that, it can and will be brutal.
The sense of accomplishment you get from dealing with imprints though is quite rewarding. When you hatch out the first egg that you inseminated via artificial insemination, when you watch that bird grow and become a successful hunter, and all because of your relationship with its mother which you helped to shape into the bird she has become....its really something. I truly believe that it is only with the imprint that you truly understand what their lives are like, to the best of our ability anyway. With them what you see is what you get. They have no facade that you can see in birds that were raised in other ways. That also means that you can learn a lot about the mastery of manipulation, how decisively devious they actually may have to be to be a successful predator. You will learn to applaud their efforts even if you may cut them off at the pass so their efforts to manipulate you are effectively squashed. You will gain valuable insight that can help you with whatever style of raising you do in the future. For many, they absolutely refuse and should not have imprints for various reasons. But for those that can and do understand them, they have almost no choice but to continue to hone their skills with the imprint because anything else just won't do.

Hi Pete,

In the longwing world, like weighing w/ grams and not oz, I feel like I am a luddite hanging on to weighing in oz (I visually know what an oz "looks" like in the palm of my hand - a gram is a bunch of abstract floating dots) and to this point still prefer flying imprint falcons.... it seems there are less and less every year who would even consider an imprint longwing, unlike when I started flying falcons in the late 80's. I feel in training successful birds one is climbing steep hills. W/ imprints, we are climbing a mountain, due to the time commitment (training a bird all brutal summer in OK, are you kidding me!). It's the "mountain" line I usually say when tragedy strikes - my 3 year old sky eater imprint tiercel peales killed striking a barb wire fence in full stoop. Survived the surgery, but died the next day - whole family was in tears...am I ready to climb the mountain again?
... I climbed the mountain again w/ his brother. I was humbled to learn the vocalness of imprint tiercel peales (way worse than any mixed female peregrine, or tiercel hybrid I have raised. Not close) - wow- yet I got another one. One - because I KNOW an imprint and what I do w/ it it will like ducks (our main quarry), and as a reminder a friend flew one from the same project, chamber bird. Complete struggle when it cam dot hawking ducks - he still thinks the bird never warmed up to ducks.. he passed the bird on. Meanwhile I was dealing w/ crazy noise at home... yet cooking w/ crisco when it came to hawking my bird. He was flat out a star. This gave me pause about the chamber birds (again!). I have flown one. I was left w/ all the feelings and observations you wrote about to a "T". She did fine, but it truly was "shallower" experience. Not to mention, she did not have "take on the world" attitude of imprints. My experience w/ 5 peregrines is the imprints are definitely different as imprints. Stoic is not the word I would choose. However, compared to prairies and gyrs, you certainly have a point !

Since loss is still on my mind should something happen to the brother (now in his 2nd year. Umm, a redtail piled into him th either day after a greta flight. Bored right in on him. Somehow he escaped w/out a scratch that we know of. It did not compute. He should be hurt or dead) I think of future alternatives/options. I am leery, as I get what you are saying about "imprint or not". Pete, what are your thoughts on the "4 Week Window" methodology of Lynn Oliphnat. Has he found the magic elixir for peregrines that are fully adjusted to falconry life and very tame (imprint like if you will), manners like a chamber bird, yet hacked like an imprint (I tame hack mine in imprint style, though Oliphant's is a tame HACK in capital letters)? Interesting stuff, and I personally know some of the falconers that have flown his birds. One 100% convinced it is the way to go (but not an imprint guy, as mentioned, who is anymore w/ longwings? ).

Anyway as an "imprint guy" I was just chiming in and wanted to acknowledge how eloquently you captured the appeal, extra burden, and challenge of hawking imprints. Very well done. Wish I could've read from your post when I've had some prominent falconers question me about imprinting like they would a circus show "freak"... somewhat fascinated that anybody would do this... Ha! Makes me wonder at times? Falconry is hard, imprinting can make it event harder... but nothing seems to have their enthusiasm for life w/ the falconer and zeal in hunting. It is special. Some see it, other's don't. Hard to explain, but you did.

[Tanner]

Falconry is hard, imprinting can make it event harder... but nothing seems to have their enthusiasm for life w/ the falconer and zeal in hunting. It is special. Some see it, other's don't.

[PeteJ]

Thanks Tim for your kind words. I guess all I can say is, I find it hard not to call 'em as I see 'em. I completely understand why many would not want to commit to an imprint. It should not be taken lightly, not only from the investment of time and thought that it takes to get it done properly, but also because of the emotional attachment that will occur if you are even remotely interested in birds at all.
I have heard good things about the 4 week window, although I have not had the pleasure of reading that work. But someone that I respect (Tanner Schaub) has read it and said that that author gets it, and that it is very similar to what I, and later Tanner, have done with the imprints we have worked with.
I believe that the birds are pulled somewhat later in the 4 week window, and generally both Tanner and I have been working more exclusively with smaller, more accelerated species than Gyrs or Peregrines (vs Merlins and Barbary tiercel sized birds). But I believe the main thing that is outlined in what was described in the 4 week window was the process of the development that the eyas undergoes at a time when really most chamber raised birds are not being handled or not being handled much at all. Timing has such a huge bearing on the successful development of any predator. Without the right opportunities at the right time in their physical/mental development they will be essentially doomed to very mediocre performance throughout the rest of their life.

[Tim Jessell]

Thanks, Pete. I'm all ears(eyes) on more specifics (devils is always in the details... and it's all details!) what you and Tanner are doing..unless you have posted this before?
Thanks, again... Tanner, love your barbary posts!

Tim

[Tanner]

The approach thats very similar to what you and I do Pete is described in Kent Christopher's "high flying gyrfalcons". The 4 week window book by Lynn Oliphant is tougher to implement- you'd have to have a whole clutch of eyasses to work with.

[Tanner]

I know Jeremy Roselle flew one of Lynn Oliphants birds- perhaps he can comment on the outcome of that method.

[Tim Jessell]

The approach thats very similar to what you and I do Pete is described in Kent Christopher's "high flying gyrfalcons". The 4 week window book by Lynn Oliphant is tougher to implement- you'd have to have a whole clutch of eyasses to work with.

Being an imprint guy I of course have the book, though I have little interest in pure gyrs (I like Guthorsman's line "Gyrs are 50% too much gyr)) or all that darn thermal training - does not send me one bit. However the raising imprint stuff does. Been awhile since I read it. Honestly, I didn't glean much new insight in the raising part. Pretty much what I've done for 25 years. Raise em up, be around them, tame hack... but now the tool of choice is the kite post tame hack, a Godsend and proactive tool in our climate. Great success w/ the hybrids, and female peregrines (ironically enough)...but these pure peales tiercel peales - what a mouth on them.
Blue (24 oz) the younger, is better than is older brother (specimen, killed mallards at 26 oz) was in the noise dept... but still I am open to a thing like the 4WW as on paper (anyway) as it sounds like blends all that I would hope for - an imprint like bird w/ superb manners... sounds too good to be true? Holy grail stuff.

Tanner, being an illustrator, I gotta ask why the Bob Ross avatar?

[Tim Jessell]

Tanner I should add, no doubt Oliphants method is asking quite a lot for the circumstances - and would seem to benefit greatly w/ more than one bird. I guess I could pull it off at my place, but too many driving roads near my house. One could ask other breeders to duplicate, but like w/ imprints, few probably would have the interest and frankly would even consider putting the daily time into it. Chamber or "leave em alone" wild hack suits them too much.