Imprinting RT's?

[chamokane]

sorry folks but i think you are nuts a frt with more than 50% chance of grabbing your face i shudder to think why imprint when you have the god given right to take from the wild do you realise how good you have it here in the uk we would give our right nut for the sniff of doing that christ if we lose a bird we are supposed to apply for a permit to retrap it
i bred some reds a few years back and i tell you they scared the living daylights out of me when it was time to catch up the parents she footed me though a thick army boot and made sure she drew blood i ended up going in with a motorcycle crash helmet that was parent reared hawks god knows what a imprint would do as the female was 6lb+ fat weight

ian

I thank you for your concern, but I have to tell you that no real American falconer would ever think of being seen in public without at least one Red-tail hanging from his face. We only let little girls fly passage birds.

[Lee Slikkers]

hi guys ,

here is a pic from today (sunday ) of imprint f/redtail. never once has she footed me in anger. i help her with the nest and most other stuff.
andy

Beautiful RT Andy, thanks for the pic. I really like the heavy barring on her tail.

[Lee Slikkers]

sorry folks but i think you are nuts a frt with more than 50% chance of grabbing your face i shudder to think why imprint when you have the god given right to take from the wild do you realise how good you have it here in the uk we would give our right nut for the sniff of doing that christ if we lose a bird we are supposed to apply for a permit to retrap it
i bred some reds a few years back and i tell you they scared the living daylights out of me when it was time to catch up the parents she footed me though a thick army boot and made sure she drew blood i ended up going in with a motorcycle crash helmet that was parent reared hawks god knows what a imprint would do as the female was 6lb+ fat weight

ian

Ian, our passage take is awesome and not something any of us take for granted, trust me. However, I originally posed the question as a basic imprint question but as you have probably read, the real question behind it was for a breeding project idea to produce HHx RT hybrids...I think this colors the answers a bit and correctly so...thanks for the input.

[saker mad]

thanks for replying but what are the pro and cons of hybridising a hh with a red i have heard of them but cannot see the point as they are super birds in there own right what would be the benifit of the mix

atb
ian

[Jimmy]

Gyrs, Sakers, and Peregrines are great birds too, but nobody questions why they're hybridized. The HH/RT hybrid is an unknown for the most part, so we really don't know what it's potential is. One possible benefit would be better cold weather tolerance for the HH part of it, or even better foot size. Perhaps a little more speed to the RT side of it. Who really knows until enough of them are out there to make judgement on them. Then there's always the cool factor.

[everetkhorton]

Jimmy:
When breeding first started a breeder may have had two sets of birds. Let say Saker and Gyr. The male Saker would give semen but the female Gyr was not receptive or laying eggs. So instead of just leaving a dry hole the breeder AI the Gyr with the male seaman. This is just an example. I do not think there was any intent to come up with any super falcon, just something. JMO.

[FredFogg]

Jimmy:
When breeding first started a breeder may have had two sets of birds. Let say Saker and Gyr. The male Saker would give semen but the female Gyr was not receptive or laying eggs. So instead of just leaving a dry hole the breeder AI the Gyr with the male seaman. This is just an example. I do not think there was any intent to come up with any super falcon, just something. JMO.

Actually Ev, there was definately intent when hybrids started out. They were trying to get the best features of both birds and started experimenting. It didn't have anything to do with using the only birds they had in their breeding chambers, although I am sure after it started, that is how some hybrids were started. LOL

[Lee Slikkers]

Ian, my thoughts on this hybrid would mirror Jimmy's. While a few are know and flown I don't think the real potential of this hybrid is full realized yet, I know I will be attempting it for a couple reasons.

I hope that this hybrid will retain some of the HH's social nature
I hope the this hybrid will have some of the RT's resistance to cold (I live in the northern states of the USA)
I hope the hybrid can add a little speed to the RT side (although its possble it could simply slow down the HH side with the RT attributes)
Larger foot size for hunting our Tree Squirrels, I love my current HH's but there is a bit more risk squirrel hawking them vs a RT.

That's just a few thoughts off the top of my head...I hope that helps some.

[saker mad]

all good points lee but dont forget you could go the other way and get all the bad points its a lottery i just hope you win it i guess i just dont like hybreds im of the thoughts why mess with a perfect bird somewhere down the line it may come back and bite you on the behind

atb
ian

[chamokane]

Lee,

The Gyr and the Peregrine are both truly great birds. However, it seems that a lot of people prefer the hybrid of the two to either parent species. You never know how something new will turn out until it has been given a fair trial. If it is not given a fair trial, you will never know.

After all the lively discussion, I don't think anyone has answered your initial question, which, if I can remember back that far, was basically: What is the best way to imprint a RT? Have you decided on a basic approach yet?

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee,

The Gyr and the Peregrine are both truly great birds. However, it seems that a lot of people prefer the hybrid of the two to either parent species. You never know how something new will turn out until it has been given a fair trial. If it is not given a fair trial, you will never know.

After all the lively discussion, I don't think anyone has answered your initial question, which, if I can remember back that far, was basically: What is the best way to imprint a RT? Have you decided on a basic approach yet?

Dave, the short answer is no, I haven’t decided which way I will proceed with this idea yet. After thinking about Jimmy’s idea of having a HH pair raise the eyas I am leaning more that way. My issue currently is figuring out a breeding pair of HH’s for the 1st step of this…I have secured a 5yr old male HH but the female portion of my equation is still uncertain.

I think I will start there for now…which more than likely leaves the imprint RT part not happening this spring but who knows

[chamokane]

Lee, I wish you good luck. I assume that you will be raising the RT's intended mate in the same nest so the imprinting works both ways?

I wonder if raising the pair as cohort raised eyases would work?

[everetkhorton]

Fred:
Also the year

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee, I wish you good luck. I assume that you will be raising the RT's intended mate in the same nest so the imprinting works both ways?

I wonder if raising the pair as cohort raised eyases would work?

That is what I am leaning towards at the moment (until or unless someone has a better, more proven idea.)

cohort raised eyases ??? Can you explain this a bit more? Thanks Dave!

[chamokane]

That is what I am leaning towards at the moment (until or unless someone has a better, more proven idea.)

cohort raised eyases ??? Can you explain this a bit more? Thanks Dave!

Lee, cohort rearing refers to the practice of hand rearing two or more chicks together in the same nest box, also sometimes called dual imprinting. The chicks are supposed to turn out very tame, but also imprinted on their own kind.

What if you hand raised a RT chick and a HH chick together, avoiding food association with humans? Maybe you could feed them through a curtain using a hawk puppet or something. Would that increase the odds that the two chicks would breed naturally? If they were exposed to human activity, but never fed by humans, maybe they would turn out calm but still imprinted on each other.

I'm just talking here, I've never tried anything like that myself. Maybe some breeders could comment.

[Jimmy]

Dave, that's very similar to how I'm considering trying to make that hybrid. Seems the most logical way to try it, to me.

[GhostRider]

The real danger in all that is even if you make no food association there is always a high risk of parental association the same...

Pics shows a RT I've imprinted and turned out to be very calm and steady. But I would not recommend to do this unless you are 100% sure of where you are going

Dan

[chris kimble]

I cant stand it anymore! Im goin' nest hunting!

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee, cohort rearing refers to the practice of hand rearing two or more chicks together in the same nest box, also sometimes called dual imprinting. The chicks are supposed to turn out very tame, but also imprinted on their own kind.

Gotcha, I understand the term dual imprint, just never heard it called cohort rearing. Thanks, I think it could be the way to go with this...

The real danger in all that is even if you make no food association there is always a high risk of parental association the same...

Pics shows a RT I've imprinted and turned out to be very calm and steady. But I would not recommend to do this unless you are 100% sure of where you are going

Dan

Dan, great pics! Would you care to share what you believe is the correct way to imprint RT's? I'm very interested...

[GhostRider]

Gotcha, I understand the term dual imprint, just never heard it called cohort rearing. Thanks, I think it could be the way to go with this...



Dan, great pics! Would you care to share what you believe is the correct way to imprint RT's? I'm very interested...

Lee: cohort rearing can be refered to as "group reared"

For the proper way of imprinting a raptor for falconry or austringry "if there is any" ....I believe McDermott's books makes a very good reference to strart with

I personally consider imprints better suited for AI and hybrid making...but does'nt mean you can't do it the same for hunting anyway

[Lee Slikkers]

Lee: cohort rearing can be refered to as "group reared"

For the proper way of imprinting a raptor for falconry or austringry "if there is any" ....I believe McDermott's books makes a very good reference to strart with

I personally consider imprints better suited for AI and hybrid making...but does'nt mean you can't do it the same for hunting anyway

Thanks Dan, actually AI or hybridizing would be my purpose for attempting this project. I am leaning more & more towards attempting it this spring...

[Jimmy]

Do you have redtails listed on your prop permit, Lee?

[Lee Slikkers]

Do you have redtails listed on your prop permit, Lee?

not at the moment but I'd have 2 yrs minimum before any RT I raise would be old enough to add to my permit, I also don't think adding a RT to my prop permit would cause any heartburn, but one neve knows I guess...

[Jimmy]

So you'd put it on your falconry permit in the meantime? I think I'd just put it straight on the prop permit, rather than take up a falconry slot. Unless you planned to hunt it....... I think I'll call about adding them to mine today, and see what happens.

[Lee Slikkers]

So you'd put it on your falconry permit in the meantime? I think I'd just put it straight on the prop permit, rather than take up a falconry slot. Unless you planned to hunt it....... I think I'll call about adding them to mine today, and see what happens.

so you'd call the state or fed. regional person? IK've thought about doing it both ways...

[Jimmy]

Call the same person who granted your permit.......
and check your PMs.

[goshawks00]

With the current trend of some regions allowing the breeding of RTs and others that don't, I think it's prudent, at least in Lee's case, to wait and see how the new regs play out.... Once atthority is given to the states, and because we have a great state permitter the odds of getting a RT added will go way up.
.02
Barry

[Jimmy]

Barry, I didn't realize that the FEDs were gonna hand over the propagation side of things to the states. Did I miss something?

[hawkstir]

I guess this question could go here or on the thread about pulling wild eggs. Anyway, what about the idea of pulling RT eggs and hatching them out and then letting your harrises raise them along with thier own chicks?

[wesleyc6]

I guess this question could go here or on the thread about pulling wild eggs. Anyway, what about the idea of pulling RT eggs and hatching them out and then letting your harrises raise them along with thier own chicks?

I had thought if the timing was right about letting a HH raise a gos for me at one time. There would be no issues if the egg hatched out around the same time. If it hatched 14 days earlier, it would be a little harder.

[Lee Slikkers]

Well, I thought I'd drag this "dead horse' out once more since I found some issues that will/would make this project difficult at best.

My intent was to produce a HH x RT hybrid...after rereading my Propagation Regs last night I ran across this little gem that pretty much puts the brakes on such a project...

"Interspecific Hybridization. Hybridization between species is authorised only if each raptor produced by intersoecific hybridization is either imprinted (hand-raised in isolation from the sight of other raptors from two weeks of age until it is fully feathered) or surgically sterilized.

I don't know of many folks who would be interested in flying an imprinted HH x RT and I know of no one who provides the surgically sterilized procedure.

That pretty much puts an end to my thoughts on this hybrid I think...

[Jimmy]

I'll do the surgery for ya, Lee........ hehehe

[Lee Slikkers]

I'll do the surgery for ya, Lee........ hehehe

LOL, seriously...has anyone ever know someone who had a bird sterilized?

Kinda sucks as it really puts a binder on my long term project!

[Jimmy]

It's not gonna slow me down from trying..........

[Lee Slikkers]

How do you intend on getting around that clause?