New book about owls behaviors and training

[vampdragon]

Wow, I would be interested in seeing some pic of kills and discriptions of the flight style. Call me a skeptic but do her owls hunt and kill regularly? I still have my doubts that they hold there own when compared to the hawks of falconry.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Hold their own when compared to hawks and falcons." On a ounce for ounce comparison, the natural prey for owls tend to be larger and more powerful for owls compared to hawks. While Red-Tails tend to focus on small mammals such as cotton rats, wood rats, small rabbits, snakes, small birds like dove and quail, a Great Horned Owl of the same weight hunt wood rats, cotton tail rabbits, skunks, barn cats, mallard ducks, etc. They believe this is due to the shorter, but thicker tarsus bone that owls have, which allow them to deliver more "punch." (this information is not in Anna's book, but found through additional research). They do have a different hunting style, much more of a wait for the perfect moment and then assassinate compared to a high speed chase, but they will chase as well, though they do fly much slower.

[sharptail]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "Hold their own when compared to hawks and falcons." On a ounce for ounce comparison, the natural prey for owls tend to be larger and more powerful for owls compared to hawks. While Red-Tails tend to focus on small mammals such as cotton rats, wood rats, small rabbits, snakes, small birds like dove and quail, a Great Horned Owl of the same weight hunt wood rats, cotton tail rabbits, skunks, barn cats, mallard ducks, etc. They believe this is due to the shorter, but thicker tarsus bone that owls have, which allow them to deliver more "punch." (this information is not in Anna's book, but found through additional research). They do have a different hunting style, much more of a wait for the perfect moment and then assassinate compared to a high speed chase, but they will chase as well, though they do fly much slower.

Hi Daniel,
I am familiar with what most raptors hunt naturally, as most falconers that have been practicing for 45 years are, but we are talking falconry here. Most Redtails left to there own divises will hunt mainly voles, mice, snakes and such, nothing very impressive. In the right hands, in sport they will' bulldog down' white tailed Jacks that weigh 3x there weight, in hard, fast, long flights, some going for over a 1/2 mile, and taking multiple head of quarry in a single outing. Same with the Harris' and Gos. The evidence is all over, including here on NAFEX.

There are only a handful of exceptional cases that I am aware of where Great Horned, Eagle Owls or Snowys have been documented doing anything like this, with any truely formidible falconry quarry. If the Owls are truely contenders for anything more than a Harry Potter fantasty, with only the exceptional, occasional specimen taking wild quarry, in a generally unimpressive style, like dropping off of a pole or tree, on to an unsuspecting vole or rat, ect., I would truely like to be educated. So if there are indeed falconers out there that have great game catching Owls, or if you know of someone, perhaps you could get stories and pics...full accounts, so I can be brought out of the dark. I have known several very capable falconers over the years that have tried GHOs but none that have taken more than a very occasional lack luster flight at easy quarry. Please... If you got em post em.

[Breeze]

Again, viewing hunting as a numbers game. Hunting with nocturnals, I would imagine is going to be very different from other raptors. Their entire mentality is apparently different from other raptors, so shouldn't be expected to react the same. IF a person is content flying a GHO (for example) and knowing very little game will be taken and don't expect mind boggling flights, then more power to those people. The challenge, it would seem, is in getting that bird to work WITH them, be responsive, follow on, etc. and a few kills along the way is sufficient.

I know my RTH is very capable of taking multiple kills in a day. I don't go for multiples. Toyed with the idea, especially when a kill is made within minutes of starting a hunt, but decided against it. One kill is fine - and we go home safely, to hunt another day. That's simply MY viewpoint on the subject. The number of kills he makes doesn't make a difference to me. That he IS killing and doing so regularly does, and that he be out flying/hunting a LOT does. But that's just my personal viewpoint on the matter. Many falconers work to gain big kill numbers. Nothing wrong with that, just not my cup of tea.

I doubt I'll ever fly a nocturnal, but do understand why some people would want to - regardless of the fact that the bird may never rack up lots of kills. Different ways of viewing things is all.

[JRedig]

They do have a different hunting style, much more of a wait for the perfect moment and then assassinate compared to a high speed chase, but they will chase as well, though they do fly much slower.

Tell that to the female GHO that flew down and killed my very fit tiercel finnish gos in open flight...made him look VERY VERY slow.

[vampdragon]

Hi Daniel,
I am familiar with what most raptors hunt naturally, as most falconers that have been practicing for 45 years are, but we are talking falconry here. Most Redtails left to there own divises will hunt mainly voles, mice, snakes and such, nothing very impressive. In the right hands, in sport they will' bulldog down' white tailed Jacks that weigh 3x there weight, in hard, fast, long flights, some going for over a 1/2 mile, and taking multiple head of quarry in a single outing. Same with the Harris' and Gos. The evidence is all over, including here on NAFEX.

There are only a handful of exceptional cases that I am aware of where Great Horned, Eagle Owls or Snowys have been documented doing anything like this, with any truely formidible falconry quarry. If the Owls are truely contenders for anything more than a Harry Potter fantasty, with only the exceptional, occasional specimen taking wild quarry, in a generally unimpressive style, like dropping off of a pole or tree, on to an unsuspecting vole or rat, ect., I would truely like to be educated. So if there are indeed falconers out there that have great game catching Owls, or if you know of someone, perhaps you could get stories and pics...full accounts, so I can be brought out of the dark. I have known several very capable falconers over the years that have tried GHOs but none that have taken more than a very occasional lack luster flight at easy quarry. Please... If you got em post em.

Hi Jeff,

What your explaining is going along with what I was saying earlier, finding the hunting style you like. You are correct, I don't see, or know of anyone who has had an owl sky out, and take prey that is 300 yards, a mile, or 2 miles away. That is not their hunting style. If that is the type of hunt that excites you, and I have come across a number of falconers with your experience that this is true, then owls will never been something you will be happy with.

Personally, I'm in falconry for the hunt in general and for the chance to be a part of the hunt with a bird of prey. I'm just as happy if I stir up a rat in a nest at the base of a tree and my Red Tail, or I hope soon my GHO, falls out of the tree on the rat, or chases a cotton tail for 50 yards, 100 yards or 200 yards.

As to your question do I know anyone who hunts with owls on a regular basis, I only know of one that I know for sure, the author of the book which started this whole conversation. She has explained a number of hunts to me, and has a few pictures of one of her snowy owls missing a bunny but "this much" on her FB account. My sponsor also hunted with a GHO for a few years, taking rats, and I know of a few others. As you mentioned though, Owls have generally been a disappointment for most falconers who have tried them. However, I believe that this is because they tried to make them hunt in a style that does not fit them, (trying to dogfight against a MiG 29 with a B-52)

[vampdragon]

Tell that to the female GHO that flew down and killed my very fit tiercel finnish gos in open flight...made him look VERY VERY slow.

I'm sorry to hear about your Tiercel Finnish Gos. It doesn't surprise me that they can't pour on the speed when they want too, especially when a female weighing in at 1,500 to 1,800 grams lets gravity work for them, but generally, they use a very light wing loading to fly slow, at least when normal flight speeds are compared.

[Breeze]

Personally, I'm in falconry for the hunt in general and for the chance to be a part of the hunt with a bird of prey. I'm just as happy if I stir up a rat in a nest at the base of a tree and my Red Tail, or I hope soon my GHO, falls out of the tree on the rat, or chases a cotton tail for 50 yards, 100 yards or 200 yards.

We think alike, in this regard, Daniel. My primary goal is to put him on grey squirrels. But Breeze has taken fox squirrels, flying squirrels, cotton rats, a bullfrog, swamp rabbit, and cottontails. Anything other than a grey squirrel is "misc" in my mind, but it's still fine. Whatever he finds to kill out there is great! Has even taken a mouse or two over the years . . . the one exception to my rule of one kill though. After a mouse - or vole - we continue on.

[rkumetz]

Hi Jeff,

What your explaining is going along with what I was saying earlier, finding the hunting style you like. You are correct, I don't see, or know of anyone who has had an owl sky out, and take prey that is 300 yards, a mile, or 2 miles away. That is not their hunting style. If that is the type of hunt that excites you, and I have come across a number of falconers with your experience that this is true, then owls will never been something you will be happy with.

Personally, I'm in falconry for the hunt in general and for the chance to be a part of the hunt with a bird of prey. I'm just as happy if I stir up a rat in a nest at the base of a tree and my Red Tail, or I hope soon my GHO, falls out of the tree on the rat, or chases a cotton tail for 50 yards, 100 yards or 200 yards.

As to your question do I know anyone who hunts with owls on a regular basis, I only know of one that I know for sure, the author of the book which started this whole conversation. She has explained a number of hunts to me, and has a few pictures of one of her snowy owls missing a bunny but "this much" on her FB account. My sponsor also hunted with a GHO for a few years, taking rats, and I know of a few others. As you mentioned though, Owls have generally been a disappointment for most falconers who have tried them. However, I believe that this is because they tried to make them hunt in a style that does not fit them, (trying to dogfight against a MiG 29 with a B-52)

BTW if you don't do your hawking from horseback wearing tight ass jodhpur pants, a jacket and funny hat while your cadge boy runs along beside you then you are not a real falconer anyway.....

[BestBeagler]

BTW if you don't do your hawking from horseback wearing tight ass jodhpur pants, a jacket and funny hat while your cadge boy runs along beside you then you are not a real falconer anyway.....

I'm concerned you know the name of those pants Ron... In fact your description sounds a little like a rehearsed fantasy to be honest.

[rkumetz]

I'm concerned you know the name of those pants Ron... In fact your description sounds a little like a rehearsed fantasy to be honest.

In my own defense:
1. My ex wife was a horse person.
2. I am tremendously amused by snobbery of any sort.

[BestBeagler]

In my own defense:
1. My ex wife was a horse person.
2. I am tremendously amused by snobbery of any sort.

I just won't go near you when you're carrying your horse whip if we ever meet...

[OATS]

Tell that to the female GHO that flew down and killed my very fit tiercel finnish gos in open flight...made him look VERY VERY slow.

Jeff, I've never heard of anything like that before out of a GHO. I'd be interested to know more about it as there are plenty of owls around here.

[JRedig]

Jeff, I've never heard of anything like that before out of a GHO. I'd be interested to know more about it as there are plenty of owls around here.

Back in 2008 (i think) had a hand-me-down gos on loan from Greg Mikkelson. He was 5 or 6 years old, very accomplished bird. Lots of photo's and stories on here about Howie. I had him about 6 weeks and greg had been flying him for a couple months prior. During that time I had been doing a lot of weighted leash jumps and restrained pursuits while duck and rabbit hawking him in MN. I went to visit Bob Berry in Sheridan, WY and took him along. We flew him on the first day and launched him out the car window at some sharptails! He missed and they blew his doors off. Next day we tried the same but the grouse were wise. Got a rooster pheasant slip off a point, went over 300 yards into a nice CRP field, saw him tackle the rooster in the bino's as it was putting in. Bob was impressed with his determination!

Walked over there and had telemetry out to help, grass was knee high and fairly thick. As I got within 100 yards, saw a bird come in and put in near where howie had taken the rooster. Couldn't tell immediately what it was, just big sihlouette as it was late in the day. Howie came up out of the grass and so did the other bird. It was the GHO. She motored him down within 50-60 yards and took him down into the grass. I ran in there, she spooked when i got close and carried him a few hundred yards. This repeated itself for 15-20 minutes until she finally dropped his body. I carried him back to the car in tears, bob and my wife thought I had howie with a pheasant as I approached, no idea what had happened. As of today, it's tied for the 2nd worst day of my falconry career. Worst phone call i've ever had to make to tell Greg his best ever bird was dead. At least he went out with his boots on.

[OATS]

Jeff, most of us have had one or more of those very tough days to one degree or another and can relate to them. Thanks for dredging that up and sharing it. As you described what happened I had a thought; do you think the gos was injured while on the ground during the owl's initial approach, broke loose, and then was overtaken in flight due to being wounded/handicapped? Or, do you think he was just flat run down in fair flight by a stronger flying bird? Having flown many goshawk's over the years and seeing the speed and maneuverability they are capable of I'm having a hard time understanding how a gos could be run down and caught by a GHO. I'm not doubting anything you have said, I'm just trying learn more about the limits of owls. I fly my birds in GHO country 100% of the time. Thanks.

[JRedig]

Very possible Eric, never really thought about it. He was up and out of there pretty quick, but all it takes is one grab. It was late jan or early feb, so the time when they are territorial and it was quite late in the evening.

I just took it for granted, bigger bird, bigger motor. She had no problem carrying his body off, he only flew about 680 grams on his heaviest days.

[Betelgeuse]

Three years ago Anna wrote on a thread here that she was coming to the USA and would like to meet some Falconers, and watch their birds fly. I responded, and also a friend lived nearby came out. Anna had her sister drive her to a meeting place where she was able to watch some of our falcons be flown. We had nice discussions about owls and training them, which seemed foreign to me. She had great knowledge of owl behavior, and has trained many owls to hunt successfully, besides breeding different species of owls in captivity. After meeting we wrote back and forth for quite a while and I was quite impressed with her knowledge and experience with owls. They are a whole different world. Probably one of the most knowledgeable and experienced owl handler in the world. She has pretty much dedicated her life to living and learning about owls. I haven't read her book, but if I was to deal with owls, and needed some advice or help, Anna would be the first person I would call! Besides the fact that she is a lovely human being who is quite kind and patient.

If a person is thinking of picking up a book about owl disposition, this post is a qualified review of the author's competency.

[bdyelm]

1. My ex wife was a horse person.

If you marry a centaur, how do you think your marriage will end?

[rkumetz]

If you marry a centaur, how do you think your marriage will end?

Touche' ! That is wise-assery worthy of ME!

Worse than you would expect, actually....

[OATS]

Very possible Eric, never really thought about it. He was up and out of there pretty quick, but all it takes is one grab. It was late jan or early feb, so the time when they are territorial and it was quite late in the evening.

I just took it for granted, bigger bird, bigger motor. She had no problem carrying his body off, he only flew about 680 grams on his heaviest days.

Jeff, doesn't surprise me at all a female GHO could loft a tiercel gos, as we've seen kill sites around here where a great horn had hauled a snowshoe hare to the top of a spouse tree and eaten it. Pretty impressive carry. Thanks again for the info.

[rkumetz]

Jeff, doesn't surprise me at all a female GHO could loft a tiercel gos, as we've seen kill sites around here where a great horn had hauled a snowshoe hare to the top of a spouse tree and eaten it. Pretty impressive carry. Thanks again for the info.

My wife informs me that spouses, like money, do not grown on trees.

[Breeze]

Jeff, doesn't surprise me at all a female GHO could loft a tiercel gos, as we've seen kill sites around here where a great horn had hauled a snowshoe hare to the top of a spouse tree and eaten it. Pretty impressive carry. Thanks again for the info.

Interesting, Eric! Knew they were strong, but never would have dreamed what you described to be possible. Awesome!

[OATS]

My wife informs me that spouses, like money, do not grown on trees.

Nice one Ron! Whether it happened that way or not, I'm going to blame it on autocorrect . Eating spouses, funny stuff.... Spruce tree was the intent, carry on.

[joekoz]

Interesting, Eric! Knew they were strong, but never would have dreamed what you described to be possible. Awesome!

Several years ago I had a Great Horned Owl who would regularly roost on a branch of a very large oak tree that extended over my paved driveway. Most of the time the evidence was in the form of very large mutes left behind on the drive. Then one day I was walking down the drive only to find the head of a very large opossum beneath where the GHO roosted. They're incredibly strong/powerful birds.