2105 Little Banded Goshawk Imprint

[falcon3d]

Just started my first imprinting journey after flying 4 PR falcons over the last several years. After reading McD's book cover to cover the journey starts with 21 day old Shikra (148g).. He was hand reared for 10 days before I got him.

He is staying in a transparent storage box (which I discover he can jump out of). Can feed himself (out of a bowl), I socialize with kids as much as possible. I think I need to tether him soon and just keep him in the living room.

[falcon3d]

[falcon3d]

Due to lack of ability to trap baggies (even sparrows) - I will get a few but not in volumes to keep it up daily and feed on a carcass as serving platter. I think I may have to adjust McD's approach a little. Just ordered McLeroy's Desert Hawking II which hopefully can give me a few more options.

Very tempted to take him outside to run around in the garden but not sure if will have negative impact

[danpike]

Love the little shikra. Be sure to give him plenty of small bone chopped in food if you can't get the little birds. You won't need many bags, as they learn so fast, soon he will be catching plenty of little birds. Enjoy him.

[hawkman1220]

I raised 3 of these here in the states back in the 70's and loved them. They are calmer than our sharp shinned hawks. Be careful of him getting into a tree in the garden. They learn quicker than you think to fly up!

[falcon3d]

Be careful of him getting into a tree in the garden. They learn quicker than you think to fly up!

You're so right Tony. This little bugger is already jumping on the couch now attempting to fly up to the desk. I have no choice but to keep him in his box and I cannot free loft (my mews have tethered falcons and I want to keep him indoors in the house) and I believe he is still too young to tether and put him on a perch - any idea when he would be ready for that?

[falcon3d]

Here is the box. Has a nest and a cover now.

[hawkman1220]

I have taken a very large cardboard box like for an appliance and made a temporary indoor mews. You cut the door in the box and cut the bars in the box. It is good for that transition period between when you will actually start placing on a perch with a leash.

[falcon3d]

That's an interesting idea. Never came across this before

[falcon3d]

Day 23

Weight 145g. The weight is a little puzzling for me. I have 24hr food availability changed 2x day. I found food half eaten in mornings but not as much as I expect - then again I have no experience with eyases. I have cut up food a little smaller this evening and put a smaller portion to find it finished in 30 mins. He showed some fear this morning but subsided later

He sits on the fist now for prolonged periods of time and even walked outside with him perched on my fist in the garden - of course never tidbits or food. At home I keep him the imprint tank (transparent) but I have moved play time to another room with less furniture as he seeks the highest perch he can get to and slices all over the furniture.

[goshawkr]

Due to lack of ability to trap baggies (even sparrows) - I will get a few but not in volumes to keep it up daily and feed on a carcass as serving platter. I think I may have to adjust McD's approach a little. Just ordered McLeroy's Desert Hawking II which hopefully can give me a few more options.

Very tempted to take him outside to run around in the garden but not sure if will have negative impact

Khaled,

There is absolutely nothing a young accipiter can learn from a baggie that cannot be taught without one. You can use a small toy on a string to teach him to foot and fight with prey. Or roll a small ball along the floor for him to play.

After my first imprint accipiter, I generally stopped giving baggies all together because I didn't like how long they suffer with young eyass hawks and I realized I could teach those lessons - which are very valuable - without resorting to them.

I should also note that I focus on ground game, so I have not figured out how to use a lure substitute for flying quarry, and that I have occaisionally used free flying baggies to teach that, but only when the eyass is flying strong.

I look forward to reading the progress of your project on this thread BTW.

[falcon3d]

I generally stopped giving baggies all together because I didn't like how long they suffer with young eyass hawks and I realized I could teach those lessons - which are very valuable - without resorting to them.

That's a good point. I didn't even think of the fact that an eyas will take long to dispose of the baggies. My plan was to release the bird at a baggie then humanely and swiftly kill it as soon as the hawk starts to eat at it or pluck - but that intervention might create problems.

I guess the it is really about what I do next. I am at a point now where I feel the hawk is ready for the next step - now he just sits in tank and I man him on the fist. I am just very hesitant to remove 24 hr food availability in order to start getting him interested in the lure. Not sure when is the right time.

[harrishawk_79]

Or use the same baggie over and over again freeze the baggie and use a launcher

[PeteJ]

If you've been feeding him on the plate, you can try using a smaller and smaller version of the plate and attach it to the lure. If you're around quite often during the day, the food in front of them all the time is actually not as good an idea as it could be. Yes, it does allow them to eat when they're hungry. But, it doesn't make them develop an eye for the things that mean food. What I've been doing with my imprint Cooper's (who is developmentally a little further along than your bird...he make short flights and is very active now), is I would put his food on a plate. Initially I would be happy if he fed himself from the plate. I kept the food ground until just a few days ago by the way. So, as time went on and he could feed himself, then I started placing the food some distance from him as I distracted him with my hand or something, perhaps he was napping. When he would awake and see it, or turn his head to look behind him after I had walked away, he would crawl over to the plate. This went on for a couple of weeks.
Then I began placing his food plate on top of the lure, and I would place it behind him as usual, some distance away. He would then run over to it when he saw it. I would let him eat the ground food and top him off by hand at the end, remove the plate and lure. A few hours later, repeat, I started adding a feeding whistle recently as well. He will now be on the back of a lawn chair in the weathering area, some distance (five feet or so) from a table I have out there with the bath pan on it. He travels back and forth between the two lawn chairs and the table quite easily now. Periodically I go out and visit with him, pick him up on the glove, and sometimes I will lay the lure out on the table shielding the action by holding him closer to my body on the glove or just putting my body between his chair and the table. Then I plant the lure, make the feeding whistle and get out of the way. In this way he goes to the food, away from me. But by being on the table he isn't threatened by me standing over him at this point.
Accipiters can be quite shy and reserved when they are young, especially if you don't trigger their real hunger (which I try to avoid as long as possible). I try hard to make sure they get plenty of food during the day, but also I am conscious of tweaking the amounts so that he might get a little hungrier as it approaches the time of day that I will likely be flying him (although its so hot here now I won't likely fly in the evening, even though I am giving him his largest meal at that time). Right now that evening focus is to try to knock back that evening accipiter over-active period they seem to have. So I feed him very well, and then take him back to his tank and his nest bowl, cover the top with some barred metal shelving piece and then cover much of the sides and half the top with an old shirt. He's eaten, he's back in the house where its much cooler, and the visual corridor is greatly reduced. He usually just lays down and preens and dozes off until morning.
At dawn he's ready to go back out to his weathering yard and get busy. I wait until he casts his pellet and then proceed again. Here's a little video of how that all started. Sorry for the quality, I don't know if that's my phone doing that in the transfer process or what? There are other videos of him as he has progressed on there as well. Feel free to check them out. https://vimeo.com/129351959

[falcon3d]

Thanks Pete. I like the video. I noticed another video in your collection on Vimeo (I've started him on the hard stuff. Solid food). This is about the level of feathering my bird currently has, but is nowhere near ready to tear food - barely eats his finely chopped food well.

[falcon3d]

Or use the same baggie over and over again freeze the baggie and use a launcher

That's a good idea. I happen to have a launcher too

[PeteJ]

Thanks Pete. I like the video. I noticed another video in your collection on Vimeo (I've started him on the hard stuff. Solid food). This is about the level of feathering my bird currently has, but is nowhere near ready to tear food - barely eats his finely chopped food well.

What are you feeding it? The smaller the hawk or falcon the more important it is for quality nutrition. Now I know that Shikras are normally a little less particular about their food quality than a Sparrowhawk for instance. But, I also wouldn't think that chicken or low quality Coturnix quail would do much for them either. Smaller birds need higher nutrition due to their increased activity. Sparrows, dove or even pigeon would be better than quail during this growth phase. Later you might get away with using quail, particularly if you want to tweak the weight without reducing the ration, but you will notice a significant drop in desire to put out on harder flights if you use it regularly.

[falcon3d]

What are you feeding it?

I am feeding it quail (good quality cortunix). Have not been able to trap any doves or sparrows (just discovered my old trap broke and building a new one). I did decide to try and leave a larger piece. Today I cut half a breast of quail and tied to the lure but not on the lure. He was much more interested than with the bowl of chopped pieces and started tearing away at it. I will add so vita hawk too.

[falcon3d]

Day 24

He jump out of his tank today (which was 3/4 covered but without a heavy weight on the cover. He is definitely getting restless. I am going to tether him in the next 2 days (his anklets and jesses are still on route from the UK which will probably take another week). I'll have to do a quick DIY in the meantime. This chick arrived 1 week earlier than I anticipated and hence did not have everything prepped in advance (including trapped sparrows/doves)

I think he is definitely a brancher by now. All feathers are out and only fuzz is on his head. I put him in a spare room during socialization time and he perches up on exercise bike (his favorite). The rest of the time he is in the living room in the tank which I feel is too restrictive for him at this point.

http://vid569.photobucket.com/albums...pswoyklpuy.mp4

[falcon3d]

[goshawkr]

What are you feeding it? The smaller the hawk or falcon the more important it is for quality nutrition. Now I know that Shikras are normally a little less particular about their food quality than a Sparrowhawk for instance. But, I also wouldn't think that chicken or low quality Coturnix quail would do much for them either. Smaller birds need higher nutrition due to their increased activity. Sparrows, dove or even pigeon would be better than quail during this growth phase. Later you might get away with using quail, particularly if you want to tweak the weight without reducing the ration, but you will notice a significant drop in desire to put out on harder flights if you use it regularly.

That advice also depends on two things: the quality of the quail and wither or not they are getting the whole bird in their diet.

There is a big difference between domestically raised quail that coming out of a "pack em in and ship em out" sort of farm operation, and one that gives their birds sun exposure and a good high quality diet. Also, while a given quail may be nutritionally complete, that nutrition is not evenly distributed. The liver, kidney, heart, brain, muscle tissue, bones and intestinal tract all have very different nutrional values.

When I am raising an eyass, I make sure the whole animal is fed before I move on to the next. I do usually toss the gizzard and beak though. I think this is a large part of the reason why small birds do not do well on quail, because they pick out the yummie bits and may not get around to the less yummie pieces that have some of the micro nutrients that they need before the food is tossed.

Either way though, this is far less of a problem if you just feed high quality small birds. If its legal in Dubai, I'd be collecting little brown jobs as my first choice for food. I wish it was legal to do so in the US - especially when those little brown jobs are raiding the berries in my garden. I can feed my goshawks for a month just on the robins in my berry patch.

[BestBeagler]

There is a big difference between domestically raised quail that coming out of a "pack em in and ship em out" sort of farm operation, and one that gives their birds sun exposure and a good high quality diet.

Who does this? No big time quail producer I have heard of. I think if you could find someone that raises wild type couternix quail and fed them bugs and greens outside that would cool. I think you would have to do that yourself though.

[goshawkr]

Who does this? No big time quail producer I have heard of. I think if you could find someone that raises wild type couternix quail and fed them bugs and greens outside that would cool. I think you would have to do that yourself though.

I didn't say it was easy to come by!

I dunno about the sun exposure, but there are two big commercial producers in the US that kick out quail with superior nutrition. They each have a custom tailored formula for their quail feed. Brad Mitchel in the Dakotas (dunno if he is still producing though) and Boyd in Washington.

[PeteJ]

That advice also depends on two things: the quality of the quail and wither or not they are getting the whole bird in their diet.

There is a big difference between domestically raised quail that coming out of a "pack em in and ship em out" sort of farm operation, and one that gives their birds sun exposure and a good high quality diet. Also, while a given quail may be nutritionally complete, that nutrition is not evenly distributed. The liver, kidney, heart, brain, muscle tissue, bones and intestinal tract all have very different nutrional values.

When I am raising an eyass, I make sure the whole animal is fed before I move on to the next. I do usually toss the gizzard and beak though. I think this is a large part of the reason why small birds do not do well on quail, because they pick out the yummie bits and may not get around to the less yummie pieces that have some of the micro nutrients that they need before the food is tossed.

Either way though, this is far less of a problem if you just feed high quality small birds. If its legal in Dubai, I'd be collecting little brown jobs as my first choice for food. I wish it was legal to do so in the US - especially when those little brown jobs are raiding the berries in my garden. I can feed my goshawks for a month just on the robins in my berry patch.

I was going by the color of the meat in the bowl in the photo of his bird in the imprint tank. It looked pink, not red, not white, but pink. That's what tipped me off and brought this aspect to the forefront.
Its not the end of the world, but they will do much better mentally and physically on a better diet. And yes, Boyd and Mitchell do raise some very nice quail here as do a few others. But, would I even recommend those for birds such as Sharpies, Merlins and Coops? In a pinch only. If its all you've got then so be it. But you can tell the difference in a matter of days of switching to something else. The level of activity will increase in a very obvious manner.

[falcon3d]

Thanks for the clarifications on the diet. I will definitely work harder at securing alternative food and add to the diet - will trap some birds one way or the other. What about throwing DOCs into the mix, will that help?

On another note, could someone take a guess at the age of this bird. Looking at other threads on sharpies, coops, etc.. they all appear to be more downy at age 23 days. I am wondering if this bird is older than what I was told. No biggie but just want to know so I can proceed per plan of the books i am reading

[falcon3d]

some pics for the above guess at age

[falcon3d]

A quick question: I have read in multiple books that food association must be avoided prior to hard penning and available 24 hrs (I present it on the lure). Currently the bird is in the tank and I will usually replace food while bird is outside the tank. What happens when the bird is branching and is moved from the tank to a perch in the living room? How do I continue to handle the feeding without the association?

[PeteJ]

One way is to take the bird to the food. In other words, have the lure already with food on it someplace else...such as a yard table or chair or on the lawn. Then, go get the bird from the perch, walk around a bit (do not go directly to the lure...take the scenic route), then when you get close to where the lure can be seen sometimes make the feeding whistle to alert the bird to look around. It will see the lure than and you can let it go it from the glove, even if you have to lower the bird to get it near it. This step doesn't take long at all for them to learn. Unless you plan to stay awhile, I would suggest to have at least a good portion of the meal still somewhat cut up into chunk sizes that can be easily swallowed. Return the bird to the perch, perhaps with some other portion that can be worked on, such as a wing with half the breast.

[PeteJ]

Also, on the age of your bird? I think Sharpies fledge at like 25 days or slightly more. So, since the Shikra is a bit bigger bird for sure (more like Coop size right?), I would say that bird is probably 30 days at least. Looks very similar to my tiercel Coop right now, and I think mine probably hatched around May 11th, which mean he's a little over 30 days now. Seems about right.

[goshawkr]

I was going by the color of the meat in the bowl in the photo of his bird in the imprint tank. It looked pink, not red, not white, but pink. That's what tipped me off and brought this aspect to the forefront.
Its not the end of the world, but they will do much better mentally and physically on a better diet. And yes, Boyd and Mitchell do raise some very nice quail here as do a few others. But, would I even recommend those for birds such as Sharpies, Merlins and Coops? In a pinch only. If its all you've got then so be it. But you can tell the difference in a matter of days of switching to something else. The level of activity will increase in a very obvious manner.

I have a friend that finishes quail in free range pens with access to bugs and weeds and dirt in addition to a complete diet. Those things look almost like pigeons. Not as dark, but almost.

I wasn't trying to contradict your assessment BTW. I agree that meat in the bowl looks very pale for a high octane bird eating hawk. And more importantly, it looks very lean - I don't see any organ meat or vitamin in there. I dunno if vitamin suppliments help, but they certainly don't hurt.

[hcmcelroy]

Khaled,

For small hawks like yours it is good to feed a minimum of 2 whole (I remove only the loaded gut) sparrows per week with a filler of pigeon or quail. Naturally it is best to feed one sparrow per day if they are available.

I wonder how many grams it is metabolizing per day?

Harry.

[PeteJ]

I have a friend that finishes quail in free range pens with access to bugs and weeds and dirt in addition to a complete diet. Those things look almost like pigeons. Not as dark, but almost.

I wasn't trying to contradict your assessment BTW. I agree that meat in the bowl looks very pale for a high octane bird eating hawk. And more importantly, it looks very lean - I don't see any organ meat or vitamin in there. I dunno if vitamin suppliments help, but they certainly don't hurt.

Most coturnix quail should look pretty dark like that since the species throughout a good portion of its very wide range is migratory. You can't migrate with white meat. Its only the ones that are raised primarily for meat in small pens, in massive numbers, that have no ability to actually fly, or have access to direct sunlight, or fresh greens and insects, that end up with such pale meat. For the restaurant market this is probably okay because often dark meated birds tend to taste 'gamey' which the palate of the wealthy clientele might now appreciate that much. Certainly the newest recruits that Les Boyd brought in years ago from Tibet are fresh wild type and brought some rejuvenating genes back into the North American coturnix pool. But even these, if they aren't allowed access to those essential resources they will be hard pressed to get to their fullest potential.

[falcon3d]

Day 25.

Got him jessed up today and tethered on a perch inside a large eagle bath pan along with nest, lure and food. He freaked out!!. The minute he realized he was restricted in movement he bated endlessly, lots of noises and when I went to pick him up he played dead and hung upside down. Finally helped from his back onto the fist and he calmed down after 5 mins and started preening on the fist. Back on the perch and he started bating and screaming.

He calmed down significantly but still bates every 5 minutes to get to a higher perch/furniture in the house. Hope I don't have to pay dearly for this later. I really don't know what I did wrong other than probably wait too long in his development to tether him. let's see how he does tomorrow.

[PeteJ]

I haven't tied mine yet and I expect the same thing. Its just what they do. Its probably about the worst time to have with them as it seems so traumatic to us, and probably to them as well. But they get over it. There really isn't any other way to do it that I know of. I guess you can free loft them basically forever, but an adage I've felt was pertinent over the years..."If you want to fly them, you have to tie them." I think this tends to work because it is a form of discipline in their life and they are, after all, children. Structure is important in the developing mind of young animals. It also takes away their willfulness. In a free loft situation you have to work with them only when they will allow you pick them up, which in most cases with young birds means they have to be hungry just for you to get ahold of them. This of course, will do one thing for sure...promote screaming! But, if they're tied, they get used to the fact that you are picking them up to do something with them, but it doesn't always mean food. Sometimes it means going outside to the weathering yard, or going for a walk to see other things besides what they can see in the place you keep them when they are tied. Their brain is like a sponge, it wants to see things and experience things. So even though food may not be at the end of them being picked up, it may have just as valuable a reward for them.
He'll be better in a few days. Sometimes misting them with water at this stage will help them to relax and get used to their situation. Often they get over scared (excited) by bating and misting them will cool them off and make them think about preening, which might lead to laying down to take a nap.

[hcmcelroy]

Khaled,

Spraying is often a great help but watch the leg scales carefully. A young hawk can displace them when attached to a perch.

Harry.