Traditional tethering vs. Clip Swivel tethering

[mainefalconer]

Geoff,

I think I know what you mean about the way that these clips can fail, and how, when the correct pressure is applied in the right (or wrong) direction, the jess can pull right out of the "gate" of the clips. As an avid rock climber, (lots of sport climbs on lead) I'm acutely aware of what we climbers call "back-clipping"
Check out the section of this video that falls between 2:15 and 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbgRIGhtezU

[rkumetz]

The type of clip used on the original posting are called "glove snaps" and there are a lot of really bad ones out there. The largest sizes are pretty durable. They are unlikely to move sideways because they are as (Geoff pointed out) pretty heavy gauge material. The most likely falconry failure would be a back clipping scenario where the swivel or jess pulls just the right direction and slides out of the clip. The most likely mechanical failure is not the clip actually coming undone but that the lengthwise tension from end to end causes the clip to bend and then the gate is no longer a gate - it just slips free and hangs in space. On a large clip that would take a LOT of tension.

I think that the rig that David sells (and is championed by the Coulsons and various other authors) is pretty safe primarily because of redundancy. It uses 2 clips and the likelihood of both failing if they of a reasonable size for the bird being tethered (assuming that the falconer is not totally inept and checks them regularly) is infinitesimally small.

To further Scott's rock climbing analogy this would be similar to using 2 non-locking carabiners at the same time with the gates facing opposite each other.

I think our word of the day should be REDUNDANCY.

[mainefalconer]

I think our word of the day should be REDUNDANCY.

I'm a firm believer in the belief of believing in redundancy.

[rkumetz]

I'm a firm believer in the belief of believing in redundancy.

That is probably a holdover from when you were employed by the Department of Redundancy Department!

[goshawkr]

Geoff,

I think I know what you mean about the way that these clips can fail, and how, when the correct pressure is applied in the right (or wrong) direction, the jess can pull right out of the "gate" of the clips. As an avid rock climber, (lots of sport climbs on lead) I'm acutely aware of what we climbers call "back-clipping"
Check out the section of this video that falls between 2:15 and 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbgRIGhtezU

That is exactly what happens, at least with the clips that I use. Its very easy for the jess to slip into just the right position for that to occur. Like I said earlier, it can happen on the first bate, or not happen once in hundreds or even thousands of bates.

I have been wondering over the last few days if that is likely to occur with these clips that David is talking about, as they are different. Like I said, I have never used them because the one I have found were not sturdy enough for my taste. Those clips that I have looked into that are similar to the ones David is talking about, the clip can be distorted laterally. By this I mean if you apply pressure side to side on the gate of the clip, you can get it to move enough to reveal a gap. Most of these clips I have seen it takes very little pressure to do this.

But, many people use them. Many people like them. The clips I have been using for 20 years certainly are not without their problems.

And ya Ron, the word of the day (or at least the thread) is redundancy...

[rkumetz]

Both the lateral distortion and lengthwise tension failure modes could be minimized by making the glove snap with a hole in the end of the "gate" and then having small point bent down at the end of the other piece that it contacts when you release pressure. With the point in the hole it would be harder to move the gate laterally and also add strength to the whole clip if you try to stretch it from one end to the other. If posting pics was not a challenge for me (ok, I admit I am lazy) I would post a sketch.

If someone was handy with welding (hint Geoff) they could clamp the clip and drill a small hole where the two pieces overlap. Then insert a small pin and
weld it to the outer piece so that it goes through the hole in the inner piece.

[goshawkr]

If someone was handy with welding (hint Geoff) they could clamp the clip and drill a small hole where the two pieces overlap. Then insert a small pin and
weld it to the outer piece so that it goes through the hole in the inner piece.

I am not handy with welding. I can barely pull off making my welds look like something someone would do on purpose.

[Megapode]

I did make 2 sets of these based upon the photo in the Coulsons book for a male Harris Hawk. This was a captive bred, calm Harris not a Red Tail Goshawk so your mileage may vary.
I used it on the glove and in a mews with a double door during the hunting season.
Over all I liked it for what it is. Convenience factor is great because the leash can stay on the perch. Just clip on the glove clips them undo the perch clips.
It did manage to unhook itself twice on one leg and once on both legs in the season. The lanyard clip was always dangling on the jess and was detached from the ring, not the other way around. I bought the most robust clips I could find and they definitely hurt my fingers when cold, but not as much as the coastlock which I will not use.
I would not use them in a weathering situation even an enclosed one because they can fail. He does like to play with and pick at equiptment so a standard swivel, extender, jesses are what I use in that situation.
If you are not willing to unintentionally free-loft, I may not be for you, but that doesn't not mean that for some falconers in some situations they are not good enough. I will use this system for tame birds, indoor use, secure mews, or maybe in a Giant hood. (I usually put my bird in a Giant Hood with no hood, swivel, or leash, just jesses when heading to the field because I do not want the leash all knotted up and am not worried about the bird flying past me when I open the door. If I am not ready to hunt the door is not opened.)

[goshawkr]

I bought the most robust clips I could find and they definitely hurt my fingers when cold, but not as much as the coastlock which I will not use.
I would not use them in a weathering situation even an enclosed one because they can fail.

It dosnt get cold in gold country, CA.

One thing to consider, if the hawk is used to being in an enclosed weathering yard and finds themselves suddenly free, the only reason they will act any differently than when they are not free is if something they are not used to happens. This is not the case with say a goshawk who is instinctively going to roost at sunset, no matter how normal it is for them to be tied down in their minds they will bate at this time. Been too long since I lived with redtails or harris hawks to remember if that is the case with those species.

[Tasha55403]

I bought the most robust clips I could find and they definitely hurt my fingers when cold, but not as much as the coastlock which I will not use.

The trick with coastlocks is not to try to pinch them to open/close them. You hold them in your gloved hand and pull them open and closed. It takes a little practice, but once you get the hang of it it's really easy to do. The smaller ones will flop around in your hand though-they can be a pain in the arse