Traditional tethering vs. Clip Swivel tethering

[davidfrank]

http://www.westernsporting.com/FE202...Two-Sizes.html

Western Sporting has recently added a new Clip and Swivel tethering system (FE2028A), which is based on the tethering system that has been used successfully by the Coulson's and other falconers for many years. This new Clip and Swivel tethering system uses a similar clip/swivel arrangement, but is a little different in that it is put together using a tough, custom braided loop leash and extension of the same material and quality of our other braided equipment.

Here at Western Sporting we are more accustomed to using a traditional tethering arrangement with our falcons which has an extension, swivel and leash looped through the jesses. We put a lot of thought into the design of these clip and swivel tethering systems, but we are still interested in everyone's views on using these types of systems with their hawks and experiences they've had with them.

We'd like to start a discussion on the pros and cons of this sort of tethering arrangement.

[goshawkr]

http://www.westernsporting.com/FE202...Two-Sizes.html

Western Sporting has recently added a new Clip and Swivel tethering system (FE2028A), which is based on the tethering system that has been used successfully by the Coulson's and other falconers for many years. This new Clip and Swivel tethering system uses a similar clip/swivel arrangement, but is a little different in that it is put together using a tough, custom braided loop leash and extension of the same material and quality of our other braided equipment.

Here at Western Sporting we are more accustomed to using a traditional tethering arrangement with our falcons which has an extension, swivel and leash looped through the jesses. We put a lot of thought into the design of these clip and swivel tethering systems, but we are still interested in everyone's views on using these types of systems with their hawks and experiences they've had with them.

We'd like to start a discussion on the pros and cons of this sort of tethering arrangement.

I have been using these systems for about 20 years. Like all things, there is a +/- trade off.

On the + side, they are a much quicker way to secure a hawk/falcon than any other setup. Tie up time is a few seconds as opposed to a minute or so with other systems. Also, once you get the leash tied to the length you want, it just stays with the perch and every time you clip them up the leash is correct. One other + is that there are more swivels, overall, in the system which reduces the likelihood that the leash will foul.

On the - side, these clips are not secure. They should only be used in contained environments (indoors, in a fully enclosed weathering yard, in the mew, etc.) where it will not be extremely dangerous to the hawk or other hawks if it gets loose. For example, don't tie off two hawks with this kind of a setup in the same weathering yard unless you are confident that if one of the hawks gets loose and they make contact with each other that both will be OK. Failure comes when the jesses move just right against the clip and slip off. It took me some time to realize how this was happening. I can now demonstrate it, but it is very complex to describe verbally. This can come on the first bate, or not ever happen in 4,000 bates, but it can happen. Failure also happens when the spring in the clip fatigues and fails. This usually happens after lots of use, but again can occur at any time including the first time the spring is compressed.

These systems also work very well for glove leashes as a backup restraint for when the jesses slip through the fingers during an unexpected bate.

[Tony James]

I have been using these systems for about 20 years. Like all things, there is a +/- trade off.

On the + side, they are a much quicker way to secure a hawk/falcon than any other setup. Tie up time is a few seconds as opposed to a minute or so with other systems. Also, once you get the leash tied to the length you want, it just stays with the perch and every time you clip them up the leash is correct. One other + is that there are more swivels, overall, in the system which reduces the likelihood that the leash will foul.

On the - side, these clips are not secure. They should only be used in contained environments (indoors, in a fully enclosed weathering yard, in the mew, etc.) where it will not be extremely dangerous to the hawk or other hawks if it gets loose. For example, don't tie off two hawks with this kind of a setup in the same weathering yard unless you are confident that if one of the hawks gets loose and they make contact with each other that both will be OK. Failure comes when the jesses move just right against the clip and slip off. It took me some time to realize how this was happening. I can now demonstrate it, but it is very complex to describe verbally. This can come on the first bate, or not ever happen in 4,000 bates, but it can happen. Failure also happens when the spring in the clip fatigues and fails. This usually happens after lots of use, but again can occur at any time including the first time the spring is compressed.

These systems also work very well for glove leashes as a backup restraint for when the jesses slip through the fingers during an unexpected bate.

Hi Geoff,

the very fact that they are not secure, in my opinion, negates any benefit in terms of simplicity of use.
Well designed, more traditional arrangements in leather or braided materials, combined with a good, lightweight swivel, are, I believe, unsurpassed in terms of safety and versatility.

Best wishes,

Tony.

[Tasha55403]

To clarify...is that 2 setups attached to the ring? Each clip goes into a jess, right? To make it more secure (but a little more difficult to maneuver) could you use coastlock swivels instead of the dog clips? I've used a similar setup for years and never had any problems with those.

[BestBeagler]

To clarify...is that 2 setups attached to the ring? Each clip goes into a jess, right? To make it more secure (but a little more difficult to maneuver) could you use coastlock swivels instead of the dog clips? I've used a similar setup for years and never had any problems with those.

I have had everything but a traditional set up fail me I have tried them all. Luckily I all the fails happened in my hand via inspection. The coastlocks get brittle with continual use where they bend the opening and closing of them at the bend causes them to weaken over time just like any wire. Just sharing an experience here. I won't use anything else but a traditional swivel now.

Pineo swivel with a paracord fox leash with weed eater line insert for stiffness is for me the ideal.

I have never figured out why leather leashes are looked down on? Wouldn't a leather jess break before a leather leash? Leather leashes are stiff and that's a good thing.

Not all directed at you you Tasha I know you have been a falconer for awhile.

Ever since I lost my first peregrine by him untying his paracord leash off his perch I just can't trust a knot completely. Fox leash for me.

We all take risks we are comfortable with though. The risks I take might be frowned upon by some. I have seen a common mind set of falconers that I admire though.

[rkumetz]

I have had everything but a traditional set up fail me I have tried them all. Luckily I all the fails happened in my hand via inspection. The coastlocks get brittle with continual use where they bend the opening and closing of them at the bend causes them to weaken over time just like any wire. Just sharing an experience here. I won't use anything else but a traditional swivel now.

Pineo swivel with a paracord fox leash with weed eater line insert for stiffness is for me the ideal.

I have never figured out why leather leashes are looked down on? Wouldn't a leather jess break before a leather leash? Leather leashes are stiff and that's a good thing.

Not all directed at you you Tasha I know you have been a falconer for awhile.

Ever since I lost my first peregrine by him untying his paracord leash off his perch I just can't trust a knot completely. Fox leash for me.

We all take risks we are comfortable with though. The risks I take might be frowned upon by some. I have seen a common mind set of falconers that I admire though.

Isaac,
Falconry is pretty much all about managing risks. No matter what you do and even with careful attention to husbandry detail you can have problems. I think that every piece of equipment has pros and cons. As you point out the falconer's knot is not infallible event when tied correctly and backed up.

I am not a big fan of leather or natural materials in general. Rock climbers abandoned leather harnesses and natural fiber ropes because both can fail without any significant sign of wear - the materials simply degrade and fail.

As for clip leash arrangements they have certain benefits when you are pressed for time (a clip is better than a knot tied in a hurried fashion) and when you need to make sure your tethering arrangement is of a certain length. As someone pointed out, the coastlock snap is probably a lot more reliable than glove snaps and luggage strap hooks.

[Tasha55403]

I have had everything but a traditional set up fail me I have tried them all. Luckily I all the fails happened in my hand via inspection. The coastlocks get brittle with continual use where they bend the opening and closing of them at the bend causes them to weaken over time just like any wire. Just sharing an experience here. I won't use anything else but a traditional swivel now.

That's part of the reason there's two of them-redundancy is your friend. My bird's are never tethered outside unsupervised. Even if I trusted the equipment I don't trust local predators. I've had one coastlock fail and come unlatched a couple times in the mew (they were always still hooked into the leather jess though), but never two. And that's with using them on big, strong birds like redtails and goshawks for years and years. ANY equipment can fail, it's the falconers job to make sure it's not a disaster if it does and to do what they can to keep it from happening in the first place.

[davidfrank]

Heavy Duty Steel Spring Hooks.


Coastlock Snap

This is a good discussion, and everyone has good points.

Just to clarify, because it is hard to see in the picture, this system uses heavy duty steel snap clips rather than the coastlock snaps. There are still wear and tear considerations with the steel snaps, but they are much more durable than the coastlock snaps which tend to fail sooner because the wire is smaller and more brittle.

Also, the picture that was posted is from the website and shows two tethering systems on one ring because there are two different sizes of system. Not sure if that was confusing or not.

We always recommend tethering hawks inside an enclosed and secure area in case of an equipment failure, even with traditional equipment, and being diligent with inspecting all of your equipment for signs of fatigue.

Thanks for all the comments and keep them coming.

[davidfrank]

This is a better picture of the swivel and clip arrangement.

[wingnut]

An old falconer in my area (who is now deceased) showed me how to put together that type of system over 30 years ago. He claimed to have invented it. It's all I've ever used. Never had the system fail completely. As has been previously mentioned though, it is the falconer's job to inspect and test equipment before failure. I've always purchased the componets separately and put together my own but by the time you purchase the mechanical parts and factor in some labor, I would say this product is reasonably priced.

[goshawkr]

This is a better picture of the swivel and clip arrangement.

I have fooled around with this exact type of a clip in a hardware store, and didn't like it. I have never used one of these. My impression was that the metal did not feel strong enough to me, like it would easily deform. The ones I have messed with in a store could be easily torqued so that there was an opening for the jesses to pop out of. I also was left with the impression that they clips would be tough to operate with cold fingers.

I have seen the coastlock style, and I know some falconers use them, but I didn't like how they felt on my fingers operating them, and there is a little sharp stub at the end of where they clip that bothered me, probably because I think too much.

The clips that I use have been used by many falconers in the pacific north west region since the late 80's or so. This is exactly the kind of clip I use:

(this is an image hosted on a website I have no control over, so I hope the link dosnt break....) The metal hook is quite a bit more robust, and the spring-snap portion is held in so that it cannot shift side to side and leave a gap. The setup I use is to attach two of these clips to a sampo swivel with small split rings. I have seen this described in several books as a "Y" system.

The spring will eventually fatigue and fail, and will do so without warning, but I keep several on hand so that I am ready to replace them. I buy them a few dozen at a time, and each one typically lasts me for a few years. It would be wise for me to rotate them out before they fail, but I have so many of these (7+) setups in use I would need a spreadsheet to keep track of the rotation schedule.

In response to those who expressed concern over the lack of security (not that I am trying to convince you, but this is a discussion and I am offering the other point of view....) Tasha was correct about the redundancy of using two clips. When one gives, the other should hold. They should also be used only when and where it is not critical that they hold.

I wanted to elaborate at a bit more length on my reply from yesterday about when I use these. During the time I am actively working with a hawk, I use these several times a day, every day.

As I mentioned, I use these on a glove leash because its quick to apply and offers more security than my fingers alone. My field jesses have a hole small enough for the clip to just barely pass through, and they are made of paracord and designed so the whole will close up. Some folks use a regular leash, but my leash is semi-permanantely attached to my glove and I can have my goshawk clipped up with this leash faster than you can thread a jess through a swivel. Not that its a race, usually, but I am not relaxed until those jesses are secured especially with a hawk that has food. On the way to/from the field, the glove is left in the giant hood clipped to the jesses (and the only time I have ever had both jesses come unclipped at the same time was in the giant hood - I think my current goshawk does it just to bug me.)

Another time when these clips come in handy is on my indoor perches that I frequently use. One is a screen perch, and the leash is always left tied to the perch with one of these "Y" systems tied flush to the perch. This is only used indoors, so even if the hawk gets off she isn't going anywhere. The other indoor perch I commonly use has a leash tied to it, but I need the length just right to keep the mess from mutes contained. Using clips, I only have to set the leash up once. Several good friends of mine use a rundrick (pole perch to American's) using the same clips I have in the photo as a quick on/off method. In all of these setups, even if both clips came undone the hawk would be more confused than anything else and sit calmly where she belongs because she has done so many times before. As an amusing side note, once I actually had both leather anklets fail at the same time just after I brought my old goshawk Angel in to hang out on the screen perch. She was so surprised that she fell out of the air and landed on her belly on the ground.

Similarly, the mew setup I have at the moment is very touchy as to how much leash is given. I keep my goshawk tied down because otherwise she will wear her wing tips pacing when she gets antsy. If I have too much leash, this setup could tangle or snag. Too little and she would not be comfortable on the high perch. I use a jesse extender when she is in here, and pass the two clips through the extender clipping opposite of each other. In a season of use, I have never had her get even one clip off. I could of course make a modified fox leash that was sized such that it was always the right length, but the clips do just fine and are much quicker to apply when I am in a hurry (which always seems to be the case). I have used modified fox leashes for just shy of 20 years, and can do it drunk with one hand tied behind my back. Attaching clips is much much faster. This is the setup:


And the last example that comes to mind of when I use these clips are when I am doing tidbit games. I usually do these on my back deck, and use a 2 meter leash. Its long enough to get in the way, but gives me all the room I need for restrained pursuits and for nice high jump ups. I do these in the open, which is a small risk, but I am right there attached to the other end of the leash and paying attention to if the hawk is eager or not. I am also watching the clips with an eagle eye. When doing these sessions, as a classic OC training regimine dictates, they are done in 3-4+ ~15 minute blocks with breaks in between. The time it would take to tie and untie a "real" leash for these is very precious time to me that I can spend other places, like doing the dishes or some laundry or even cranking out an email for work.

I used to weather my hawks in my yard on the lawn while I was keeping an eye on them. Not always under direct supervision, sometimes while I was within earshot in the house. For this, I NEVER EVER used a clip setup, but instead used what Steve Layman termed a "modified" or "reverse" fox knot which I think is identical to what others on the thread have been calling a fox knot (Nick Fox suggested putting the button at the leash ring and using a loop for the knot, Steve's modification to Nick's idea is a little simpler because the perch does not need to be modified). Over the last 3 years I have had to squash that practice because my free range chickens have drawn in too many coyotes and eagles for this to be done safely.

However, the rule still stands with me - clips are only to be used in enclosed spaces where it is relatively safe for a hawk to be completely free, as a backup to just holding the jesses, or when I want just a touch of extra control where a free flight would be ok. In any other situation, I use a modified fox loop leash.

I do have some friends that use clips even in open situations. I smile and give them my advice when appropriate, and let them take their own risks (although I will not commit to keeping the "told ya so" to myself when/if they have a problem related to failed clip).

[DtRooster]

This is a better picture of the swivel and clip arrangement.

Can't vouch for those exact clips but if they're as good as the ones I've got, they aren't close to junk.

[davidfrank]

The steel spring hooks that are used on these systems are the heavy duty thickness and are much harder to bend than the standard lanyard clips that you would get at the hardware store. It takes quite a bit of force to get them to twist at all. They are the same clips that are recommended by the Coulsons in their book.

Just to clarify.

[dboyrollz76]

They don't have to bend to fail, it's the closing part, they have a tendency to pop off to either side of the hook. I like the traditional swivel method.

[DtRooster]

They don't have to bend to fail, it's the closing part, they have a tendency to pop off to either side of the hook.

. Yeah Walmart and Dollar stores tend to sell junk

[goshawkr]

. Yeah Walmart and Dollar stores tend to sell junk

I have seen exactly what Derek mentioned happen with high quality clips similar to the ones in the setup that David is promoting. These were not "dollar store" junk, those ones you can get to slip just by looking at em. Maybe Western Sporting found some that are higher quality than the ones I have seen, David seems to believe that is the case. Even if they are high quality, I found that style to be uncomfortable to use because of the way the pressure was on my fingers.

As "good" as clips can be in the right situations, you can also create real nightmares if they are not high quality.

I tried a few of the expensive French spring clips that Northwoods used to sell - they would pop open with the slightes bump and the springs would regularly fail (some on the first use). Those things were worse than using nothing at all.

[DtRooster]

I went thru samples from all over the country and ended up getting from US Lanyards in a sack of 100. They're not bending without a couple pairs of vicegrips and some effort, good ones are available

[dboyrollz76]

Even high quality, these clips will slip open at some point! Repeatative bating or it catches something or turns sideways from working loose out of the eyelet. As a quik handy tool of the field or in transport or a perch in your living room, probably ok. But to tether one out to weather is a disaster waiting to happen. It will open, it's just a matter of time and if your there to catch it when it dose.There are better options for clasps or clips the swivel and leash set up is great I think as far as not tangling and twisted jesses.
And I've read some state regs like my own states regs say they are unexceptable. But folks use them anyway!

[mainefalconer]

Geoff,

I think I know what you mean about the way that these clips can fail, and how, when the correct pressure is applied in the right (or wrong) direction, the jess can pull right out of the "gate" of the clips. As an avid rock climber, (lots of sport climbs on lead) I'm acutely aware of what we climbers call "back-clipping"
Check out the section of this video that falls between 2:15 and 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbgRIGhtezU

[rkumetz]

The type of clip used on the original posting are called "glove snaps" and there are a lot of really bad ones out there. The largest sizes are pretty durable. They are unlikely to move sideways because they are as (Geoff pointed out) pretty heavy gauge material. The most likely falconry failure would be a back clipping scenario where the swivel or jess pulls just the right direction and slides out of the clip. The most likely mechanical failure is not the clip actually coming undone but that the lengthwise tension from end to end causes the clip to bend and then the gate is no longer a gate - it just slips free and hangs in space. On a large clip that would take a LOT of tension.

I think that the rig that David sells (and is championed by the Coulsons and various other authors) is pretty safe primarily because of redundancy. It uses 2 clips and the likelihood of both failing if they of a reasonable size for the bird being tethered (assuming that the falconer is not totally inept and checks them regularly) is infinitesimally small.

To further Scott's rock climbing analogy this would be similar to using 2 non-locking carabiners at the same time with the gates facing opposite each other.

I think our word of the day should be REDUNDANCY.

[mainefalconer]

I think our word of the day should be REDUNDANCY.

I'm a firm believer in the belief of believing in redundancy.

[rkumetz]

I'm a firm believer in the belief of believing in redundancy.

That is probably a holdover from when you were employed by the Department of Redundancy Department!

[goshawkr]

Geoff,

I think I know what you mean about the way that these clips can fail, and how, when the correct pressure is applied in the right (or wrong) direction, the jess can pull right out of the "gate" of the clips. As an avid rock climber, (lots of sport climbs on lead) I'm acutely aware of what we climbers call "back-clipping"
Check out the section of this video that falls between 2:15 and 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbgRIGhtezU

That is exactly what happens, at least with the clips that I use. Its very easy for the jess to slip into just the right position for that to occur. Like I said earlier, it can happen on the first bate, or not happen once in hundreds or even thousands of bates.

I have been wondering over the last few days if that is likely to occur with these clips that David is talking about, as they are different. Like I said, I have never used them because the one I have found were not sturdy enough for my taste. Those clips that I have looked into that are similar to the ones David is talking about, the clip can be distorted laterally. By this I mean if you apply pressure side to side on the gate of the clip, you can get it to move enough to reveal a gap. Most of these clips I have seen it takes very little pressure to do this.

But, many people use them. Many people like them. The clips I have been using for 20 years certainly are not without their problems.

And ya Ron, the word of the day (or at least the thread) is redundancy...

[rkumetz]

Both the lateral distortion and lengthwise tension failure modes could be minimized by making the glove snap with a hole in the end of the "gate" and then having small point bent down at the end of the other piece that it contacts when you release pressure. With the point in the hole it would be harder to move the gate laterally and also add strength to the whole clip if you try to stretch it from one end to the other. If posting pics was not a challenge for me (ok, I admit I am lazy) I would post a sketch.

If someone was handy with welding (hint Geoff) they could clamp the clip and drill a small hole where the two pieces overlap. Then insert a small pin and
weld it to the outer piece so that it goes through the hole in the inner piece.

[goshawkr]

If someone was handy with welding (hint Geoff) they could clamp the clip and drill a small hole where the two pieces overlap. Then insert a small pin and
weld it to the outer piece so that it goes through the hole in the inner piece.

I am not handy with welding. I can barely pull off making my welds look like something someone would do on purpose.