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Thread: How to cure screaming?

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    Default How to cure screaming?

    Can I ask the more experienced members who have used OP methods,
    is it more effective to cure a screamer by getting the bird to scream on a cue and then just reduce the amount of cues to the bird or
    try to reward quiet behaviour and increase the duration of the bird being quiet?

    David

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    I am not sure this will help. But it seems you are trying to cure the symptoms and not the reason they scream. "Food" I have an imprinted male Harris Hawk in his fourth season. And he hasn't screamed in years. The first few months were pure hell though. For Diablo all it took was hunt, hunt and more hunting. Once he was consistent hunting he just up and shut up. He still talks a lot as I think all HH are prone to do. But it more of a grumble under their breath and definitely not a scream. I have to be paying attention to even notice he's talking. But then again Diablo is a weird bird so no guarantees. First months I had to tell my neighbor that he would grow out of the screaming after he started hunting. Boy I lucked out on that one.
    John Everest
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    Quote Originally Posted by HGlider View Post
    I am not sure this will help. But it seems you are trying to cure the symptoms and not the reason they scream. "Food" I have an imprinted male Harris Hawk in his fourth season. And he hasn't screamed in years. The first few months were pure hell though. For Diablo all it took was hunt, hunt and more hunting. Once he was consistent hunting he just up and shut up. He still talks a lot as I think all HH are prone to do. But it more of a grumble under their breath and definitely not a scream. I have to be paying attention to even notice he's talking. But then again Diablo is a weird bird so no guarantees. First months I had to tell my neighbor that he would grow out of the screaming after he started hunting. Boy I lucked out on that one.
    it is not luck in my opinion, a hawk that is giving it's full attention to hunting is in that zone and it will not scream as long as it is seeking prey. They do grow out of screaming provided they become hunters just like in the wild. When they are self actualized as they say they don't scream. Screaming is a proclamation of dependence, tid bit almost any hawk for a few days and make it dependent on you for food and it most likely will begin screaming. In pair bonding in wild adult hawks, often one of the adults will declare it is willing to become dependent and announce it by sounding some hunger screams. Signaling a desire to be presented food and signaling a willingness to copulate. IMHO
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    Quote Originally Posted by davids View Post
    Can I ask the more experienced members who have used OP methods,
    is it more effective to cure a screamer by getting the bird to scream on a cue and then just reduce the amount of cues to the bird or
    try to reward quiet behaviour and increase the duration of the bird being quiet?

    David
    The real trick with extinguishing screaming is that it is a self-reinforcing behavior. The instincts to scream are just so deeply wired into the software that is a raptor's brain that they get a rush of some kind just from doing it.

    Its a real tough behavior to train out. But before I blabber on and cause mass boredom, the direct answer to your question is that the more effective way is to reward quiet behavior.

    A good friend of mine whos is an absolute wizard at operant conditioning raised a batch of imprint gyrfalcons for a friend, and one of the goals was that they not be screamers. He trained them all to scream while he had his hands over his head like a conductor waiting for the orchestra to be ready. He and his family got such a laugh out of their choir of falcons that they cue was given quite frequently. They only got fed if they screamed on cue, and they never got the cue unless they had been silent for several minutes before. A fun post script to that story is that about 10 years later he was talking to a friend and they mentioned that his absolutely silent gyrfalcon raised the roof with screaming when he changed the lightbulb in its chamber - turns out it was one of these falcons.

    I have tried a few times to put screaming on cue with imprint goshawks. I have always succeeded at that, and it really comes in handy. You don't need telemetry very often if you your hawk will call back when you call it. However, the hawks I have tried this with also turn into full time screamers. I haven't had much success with getting them to be silent when the cue is not given. This is pretty common with behaviors like this that self reinforce - very easy to encourage it and get it on cue, but very difficult to discourage.

    I have toyed around with the rewarding silence through OC, although I have never gotten serious enough about that to really be effective. I have noticed improvements. Its a bit tough though, because as soon as the CR is given, the hawk gets keyed up that food is coming and frequently screams. Its really tough to overcome that.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
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    Thanks for your replies.

    I must admit she doesn't scream continually, but when she does it is a right pain.
    I often wondered if a period of extended hack would help reduce screaming.

    David
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Smith View Post
    it is not luck in my opinion, a hawk that is giving it's full attention to hunting is in that zone and it will not scream as long as it is seeking prey. They do grow out of screaming provided they become hunters just like in the wild. When they are self actualized as they say they don't scream. Screaming is a proclamation of dependence, tid bit almost any hawk for a few days and make it dependent on you for food and it most likely will begin screaming. In pair bonding in wild adult hawks, often one of the adults will declare it is willing to become dependent and announce it by sounding some hunger screams. Signaling a desire to be presented food and signaling a willingness to copulate. IMHO
    just spot on .
    so it is just creating the right conditions, that is starting to hunt as soon as possible. feed on prey as much as possible, avoid bringing food other than on game or baggie caught , the thing will be for the hawk to see hunting as THE main source of feeding and oneself as just a casual provider
    Juan

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    In my experience, screaming tends to develop around a feeding routine and the expectation of food. This seems like an obvious statement, but I have noticed (and I am guessing your case is similar) that that bird's typically only scream in specific circumstances surrounding the time and place they are fed. For example, a bird screams in the mew when you walk out the back door because those are the events leading up to food being given to her (bird being in mew and you walking out the door). Hunting reduces this because she is in a new environment and circumstances not typically associated with food being given to her.

    Screaming develops when the same circumstances or events leading up to feeding time are repeated several times, establishing a pattern. In order to stop screaming, you need to break the pattern, but it will take some time. Hunting breaks up the pattern (usually of being fed during the moult) and usually reduces (or eliminates) screaming. You can also do this by spending more time around the hawk without feeding her, or change how she gets fed. For example, take her out and let her exercise, then produce the lure and let her feed from it rather than feeding at home.
    Paul

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    David,

    I have a technique used for years and reduces screaming as soon as two weeks.
    Assuming the bird is hunted about three or four days a week, that helps,....however the off days when the bird needs to be fed is the difference. Since the bird is already trained, hunted, lure trained,...the off day feeding at home is changed. Each off day, place the daily food rations somewhere in the backyard and let the bird search and wonder about the location. Hence, the birds focus is similar to being in the field looking for prey, but in this situation your birds is searching looking for food at a different location, and not focusing on food directly from the trainer. And never let the bird see you place the food.
    The bird can either be hooded or unhooded, when entering the yard for the bird to search for food. Normally, when you enter the yard walking and then stop, the bird immediately starts searching for the food,....it's an entertaining game on off days of flying. What's really funny is to start walking backwards,...you bird will soon learn you are trying to hide the food source, and she will immediately try to look around you for the location. (then coincidently, when in the field and you want the bird to launch, just start walking backwards, it works,.....and your friends will wonder what in the heck you are doing.)
    So back to the yard,...you turn around and she immediately sees the food and launches,....well still on the leash and food is say ten feet away,...you immediately rush and allow the bird to feed,....(also creates restrained bating exercise for muscle strength development) If bird is lure trained, the food could be placed on the lure and hid somewhere in the yard,.....the whole process is like hunting in the wild, where the trained bird must look away from you for the food source, even in the backyard. I have been using this technique for years.
    roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by goshawkr View Post
    The instincts to scream are just so deeply wired into the software that is a raptor's brain that they get a rush of some kind just from doing it.

    Damn, Geoff, how do you know this?

    Its a real tough behavior to train out. But before I blabber on and cause mass boredom, the direct answer to your question is that the more effective way is to reward quiet behavior.

    But, Geoff, if it is "hardwired into their brain," then screaming is instrumental to their survival. So, how do you "realistically" overcome this innate behavior by simply rewarding it away? I would think there would be a hell of a lot more to it than this, not the least of which would be each bird's individuality. I guess what I am suggesting, Geoff, is that there is a lot more to screaming than we understand; enough to where we just can't put it to rest, no matter how hard we try, or what "recipe" we feel is the best, and there are a few of them out there.
    Bill Boni

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    Quote Originally Posted by davids View Post
    Thanks for your replies.

    I must admit she doesn't scream continually, but when she does it is a right pain.
    I often wondered if a period of extended hack would help reduce screaming.

    David
    David,

    You have a lot of good suggestions that have been added to this thread. However, since you started this as an operant conditioning thread, on the operant conditioning forum, I wanted to elaborate a little deeper on my earlier response.

    What you describe here confirms to me that if you want to solve this with operant conditioning, you will be far better off to reward the silence than to put the screams on cue. If you put the scream on cue, even if you are ultimately successful in getting a silent bird, there will be a period when it is much worse because you are temporarily encouraging it.

    As I said, I have not yet gotten real serious about that with raptors, but I still have made significant progress in a few cases. I have trained both dogs and cats that were neurotically vocalizing to shut the @#$%W# up this way. In just a few days they were quite silent, at least in the situations that were previously causing them to constantly vocalize.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    The instincts to scream are just so deeply wired into the software that is a raptor's brain that they get a rush of some kind just from doing it.

    Damn, Geoff, how do you know this?

    Its a real tough behavior to train out. But before I blabber on and cause mass boredom, the direct answer to your question is that the more effective way is to reward quiet behavior.

    But, Geoff, if it is "hardwired into their brain," then screaming is instrumental to their survival. So, how do you "realistically" overcome this innate behavior by simply rewarding it away? I would think there would be a hell of a lot more to it than this, not the least of which would be each bird's individuality. I guess what I am suggesting, Geoff, is that there is a lot more to screaming than we understand; enough to where we just can't put it to rest, no matter how hard we try, or what "recipe" we feel is the best, and there are a few of them out there.
    Bill,

    Its actually pretty simple. I know this because I have studied the works of several people who have studied this. These people are way smarter than me, and have been working on similar problems to this for much longer than I care to think about them.

    Operant Conditioning is based on almost 60 years of research. There are many behavioral psychologists and animal behaviorists behind this theory. And its not a theory in sense of "I wonder what will happen if I do this" its a theory in the sense of the theory of gravity - "so far this is the best explanation in science for this."

    Individuality has little to do with it. It only comes to bear in terms of how difficult or easy it will be to train a behavior, but it has nothing to do with or not you can use a method to train that behavior.

    Operant conditioning works on the basic laws of learning that every creature on this planet with a nervous system operate under. It works on all of them.

    And back to what I was saying earlier - some behaviors are self rewarding because the very act of acting them out fire off the reward centers in the brain. Food begging screams by raptors are one of those. That's why its so tough to combat once it shows up. Not all self rewarding behaviors are undesirable though - catching prey is a key example.

    I understand screaming quite well - as do a lot of other people.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
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    I approach screaming from a traditionalist's point of view. I see it exactly the same as Tom Smith above. If I use OC, I don't know it. And although I hear it talked about quite a lot, I can't say I've ever personally seen anyone do anything to a hawk with "OC" that makes me want to throw away or modify my methods. And when I saw this question posed, I thought to myself, "good, If these OC guys are really good, they will spell out how they can stop ingrained behavior such as screaming with OC, - and I'll finally be convinced." But I mostly hear a lot of lofty theory's and very little of something I can use from OC proponents. It's quite easy to just say "reward quiet behavior." But that sounds a bit like more theory. I'm not slamming OC, I'd just like to be shown and convinced it could help my falconry.

    I do like people who can think outside the box. And I think I'm open to any new idea that hit's me upside the head. Roger's idea of "hunting" off the fist for hidden food instead of having it handed to the bird is a good example of someone thinking outside the box.

    My approach to screaming has involved mainly 5 approaches (all very traditional):

    1. The more into hunting and catching it's own food the bird becomes, the quieter it gets.

    2. And this is related to the first - Time. Screaming subsides with age and time. And that's all about the bird becoming dependent upon it's own ability to hunt and kill.

    3. Avoid direct and obvious food association as much as possible.

    4. Extended time with the parents, if I really need a bird that is quiet. The longer they stay with the parents, the less likely they are to scream.

    5. Constant contact with people verses contact with people only at feeding time. I have noticed for many years that my imprint accipiters scream less and stop sooner when they are kept in the house and around me all the time. Birds kept outside in an outdoor mews scream more and take longer to stop.
    Keith Thompson
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    Everybody mentions avoid direct food association. That is one I haven't adhered to. I feed from both the hand and where ever. It is probably that I fly my bird fat. I get where people mention that to get peak performance you need your bird REAL hungry. But Diablo always gives it close to 100%. He will crash bushes hard and always chases. Maybe I could get another 5% out of him if I dropped his weight more. But I like flying him the way he is. He always stays around me except when he does a long chase and he does come back. Richard will say otherwise but it was his first time in snow and it was dam cold and the first year. Was also Richard's birthday. He did come down just before dark. I rarely have to blow the whistle to get him to come to the fist. But when an Eagle is near I blow once and he's incoming instantly. But the main reason I say this is Diablo never screams even if I don't have him come to the fist for over an hour at a time. All I do is put my fist out and he's incoming.. Maybe I'll never win a field meet with many heads of game but to me the more time in the field means more to me than a ton of game and a noisy bird that will bounce off barbwire fences. I am old and laid back when it comes to hawking.
    John Everest
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    brillant answers and clues .
    I like to stay as close as possible to natural behavior.
    screaming can roughly be translate as begging.

    begging can be translate by let them know that I want food and that is the only effort I'll made, screaming are just the cheapest way to obtain food.

    that is psychologicaly important for a hawk.

    instead of it go for an effort , effort is energy spending which doesn't match screaming attitude.
    so jumps come in these can be streneous and incompatible with screaming.
    the way I suggest is not coming to the glove but rather use a" fishing rod "actually any stick will do it , tied a string at the end a small amount of food with a very thin sewing thread. contrary to a classic jump where it has to land on the glove,

    here it has to jump, turn upside down in the air, grab the food , and land
    much more exausting, 10 times will probably ( depending the hawk and adapting it to it )be enough.

    so the hawk will not scream to receive food , it will rather prepare itself for that effort which in turns makes him fitter and more skillful and modify its mental response.
    the effort of breathing and screaming are incompatible. so knowing what to expect it will give up soon ( all this having a goshawk in mind)
    Juan

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    Thank you for the suggestions and advice.
    I did approach this from an OC point of view and I still think it will work with that method IF I was skillful enough.
    I probably have instilled the behaviour over the years without realising it and to be truthful it never really bothered me that much, but I do have neighbours who perhaps don't appreciate her calling.
    She doesn't scream constantly and just yesterday, when she started calling, I just picked her up, hooded her for a while, then sat her back on her perch where she was quiet. I think the act of hooding interrupted her mind-set.
    I think there are plenty of other methods that will work, though when people say hunting will quieten her down, perhaps, but it hasn't made much of a difference that I can tell. Maybe she would be ten times worse if she wasn't catching her own game. She does catch on average 40 head of game a year, mostly single kills then crop up and home.
    Again thanks for your suggestions, its much appreciated.
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by goshawkr View Post
    And back to what I was saying earlier - some behaviors are self rewarding because the very act of acting them out fire off the reward centers in the brain. Food begging screams by raptors are one of those. That's why its so tough to combat once it shows up. Not all self rewarding behaviors are undesirable though - catching prey is a key example.

    I understand screaming quite well - as do a lot of other people.


    So, they're not really food begging, they're just screaming because they enjoy it? Why, then, are they usually quiet in nature after some maturity, yet continue to catch prey, if both items fire off said reward centers? Obviously one leads to food; but, you're indicating they both have neurologically rewarding outcomes regardless of acquisition of a meal.
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    Its actually pretty simple. I know this because I have studied the works of several people who have studied this. These people are way smarter than me, and have been working on similar problems to this for much longer than I care to think about them.

    Operant Conditioning is based on almost 60 years of research. There are many behavioral psychologists and animal behaviorists behind this theory. And its not a theory in sense of "I wonder what will happen if I do this" its a theory in the sense of the theory of gravity - "so far this is the best explanation in science for this."

    First of all, Geoff, I didn't mean to insult you knowledge of OC; The focus of my comments, Geoff, was not on OC; in fact, I never mentioned it. But I guess that is what you were basing your original comments on. I should have realized this fact. Sorry.

    My question was, basically, how do you or anyone know, that these birds get "a rush from screaming?" No one knows if they get a "rush" from anything they do; do they?

    Individuality has little to do with it. It only comes to bear in terms of how difficult or easy it will be to train a behavior, but it has nothing to do with or not you can use a method to train that behavior.

    Operant conditioning works on the basic laws of learning that every creature on this planet with a nervous system operate under. It works on all of them.

    Geoff, I realize you have a firm believe in OC, and I respect that, but these are categorical statements that are just not entirely true because they are based upon theory, regardless of how much you might believe in it, or have found it successful. You might want to qualify some of your statements with something like, "Based upon my experience, and those of others, it is my firm belief that . . . . ".

    Many years ago, I once had an imprinted immature goshawk that screamed its lungs out at the falconer who imprinted him. But, when I took him home, he never screamed again, not one peep. And I have heard of others that have had this experience. There, obviously, was some psychological compelling reason for him to quit screaming like that, which I would not even guess at, but it certainly wasn't the result of any "conditioning."

    And back to what I was saying earlier - some behaviors are self rewarding because the very act of acting them out fire off the reward centers in the brain. Food begging screams by raptors are one of those. That's why its so tough to combat once it shows up.

    Here's another categorical statement. You are stating a fact, Geoff. How do you know this?

    I understand screaming quite well - as do a lot of other people.

    Good for you, Geoff

    Bill Boni

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    I have a few falconer friends that are also into behavior in raptors and have spent some time playing with that aspect, that is behavior. It is not uncommon for them when discussing some behavior to start the conversation with the comment, "I hate to be anthropomorphic but I have a hard time describing it otherwise" So when one comes to realize that they know what it means to be anthropomorphic, one starts to forgive them for describing their observations in anthropomorphic terminology. So we all know a stupid bird is incapable of finding joy or exuberance in anything but we will express it in those terms as if the bird enjoyed sailing around or screaming or any thing that it does because we know our fellow falconers will understand what we are talking about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Smith View Post
    I have a few falconer friends that are also into behavior in raptors and have spent some time playing with that aspect, that is behavior. It is not uncommon for them when discussing some behavior to start the conversation with the comment, "I hate to be anthropomorphic but I have a hard time describing it otherwise" So when one comes to realize that they know what it means to be anthropomorphic, one starts to forgive them for describing their observations in anthropomorphic terminology. So we all know a stupid bird is incapable of finding joy or exuberance in anything but we will express it in those terms as if the bird enjoyed sailing around or screaming or any thing that it does because we know our fellow falconers will understand what we are talking about.
    Tom,

    These researchers are overly sensitive about "anthropomorphizing" in their descriptions. To be fair, that is for good reason. If you look at behavioral research from as recently as the 40s and 50s there is a lot of garbage that was put out by scientists because they were not objective enough. However, I think the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction now.

    It IS anthropomorphic to say that falcons (or other non-human animals) feel and think in human terms.

    It is NOT anthropomorphic to say that raptors feel and think in raptor terms.

    And to Bill's point, no one who has not actually been a raptor really knows for certain what goes on in their head - what they think, what they feel. The best we can do is make some educated inferences. Those inferences have value as data - they should not be discounted out of hand. However, to maintain true scientific objectivity it needs to be remembered that they are in fact, inferences.

    Birds are quite alien from mammals in general and humans in particular, but they are more like we are than they are different in many ways.
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    I don't know how many of you have observed this behavior :

    I had an issue with my imprint gos of this year not holding weight if only fed once a day. She just wouldn't eat enough at one setting.

    One day I fed her up until she would not eat any more. But she sat there on the shelf perch in my living room and screamed anyway.

    It just seemed odd at the time why a bird would scream that wasn't interested in eating. Hard to figure these birds sometimes.
    Keith Thompson
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    Quote Originally Posted by goshawkr View Post
    Tom,

    These researchers are overly sensitive about "anthropomorphizing" in their descriptions. To be fair, that is for good reason. If you look at behavioral research from as recently as the 40s and 50s there is a lot of garbage that was put out by scientists because they were not objective enough. However, I think the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction now.

    It IS anthropomorphic to say that falcons (or other non-human animals) feel and think in human terms.

    It is NOT anthropomorphic to say that raptors feel and think in raptor terms.

    And to Bill's point, no one who has not actually been a raptor really knows for certain what goes on in their head - what they think, what they feel. The best we can do is make some educated inferences. Those inferences have value as data - they should not be discounted out of hand. However, to maintain true scientific objectivity it needs to be remembered that they are in fact, inferences.

    Birds are quite alien from mammals in general and humans in particular, but they are more like we are than they are different in many ways.
    interesting thoughts nevertheless I think that animals do share common attitudes and feelings with humans if they are hungry and so are you it is the same, if you're scare also if you are relax etc..

    I mean by that that they are confronted to many phenomena that we are confronted as well and they do share similar answers much of the time.
    Juan

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    Quote Originally Posted by keitht View Post
    I don't know how many of you have observed this behavior :

    I had an issue with my imprint gos of this year not holding weight if only fed once a day. She just wouldn't eat enough at one setting.

    One day I fed her up until she would not eat any more. But she sat there on the shelf perch in my living room and screamed anyway.

    It just seemed odd at the time why a bird would scream that wasn't interested in eating. Hard to figure these birds sometimes.
    My imprint gos does that. My best guess is that he gets distracted by noises, birds overhead, clouds, bugs and other stuff and simply walks away from food before he has what he needs to go 24hrs. With my bird it became more pronounced when I was down to 1 meal a day which is why I concluded that.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    I have another explanation that could maybe answer that ?

    have you notice how chicken independently of food do chirp all the time
    that is a way of keeping always contact with their mother.

    so do goshawks in the nest when the parents are around( that's precisely one way of finding them)
    so it is a way of mantaining the parent's bonding strong and ..necer turning adult. which happens in the wild when dispersal takes place.

    don't know if you practice this , I saw a method in the UK:

    that is imprinting goshawks are reared by 2 austringers , each rearing each other's hawk and giving it back when hard penned , they do are imprint but don't show the screaming , and particularly the agressive behavior that many imprints show.
    Juan

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    Quote Originally Posted by nebli View Post
    I have another explanation that could maybe answer that ?

    have you notice how chicken independently of food do chirp all the time
    that is a way of keeping always contact with their mother.

    so do goshawks in the nest when the parents are around( that's precisely one way of finding them)
    so it is a way of mantaining the parent's bonding strong and ..necer turning adult. which happens in the wild when dispersal takes place.

    don't know if you practice this , I saw a method in the UK:

    that is imprinting goshawks are reared by 2 austringers , each rearing each other's hawk and giving it back when hard penned , they do are imprint but don't show the screaming , and particularly the agressive behavior that many imprints show.
    That is very much what happens when one takes a passage bird. The passage bird is an imprint on it's parents as all birds are. We can assume the passage bird was for a time a screamer and when it is taken by a falconer it quits screaming with the change of parent and address. You have probably seen a passage bird that it will scream at a passing adult of it's species and may even mantle and flutter it's wings a little, in an attempt to return to it's roots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Smith View Post
    That is very much what happens when one takes a passage bird. The passage bird is an imprint on it's parents as all birds are. We can assume the passage bird was for a time a screamer and when it is taken by a falconer it quits screaming with the change of parent and address. You have probably seen a passage bird that it will scream at a passing adult of it's species and may even mantle and flutter it's wings a little, in an attempt to return to it's roots.
    Then one other complexity in the mix: When a passage bird is held by a falconer for years the passage bird begins to look on the falconer now as its new provider and seems to switch from imprinted to its parents to imprinting to the falconer.

    And another: Although we know that getting a bird hunting hard greatly reduces screaming. It doesn't however totally / completely stop it. I suspect that even the bird that now hunts for it's own meal realizes that it's the falconer still that suddenly appears and transports it to the field where it can hunt and kill. So even a well made hunting bird is still somewhat dependent upon the falconer - something that doesn't occur in the wild, where the cut with the parents is permanent and complete.

    And yet another observation is that during the molt, that bird that has developed into a "independent" hunter, is once again provided with handouts from the falconer. Once again, the ties are never really as broken as they are in the wild.
    Keith Thompson
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    Hi Keith

    Over here in the UK i have heard some people moult their imprint hawk out in seclusion thereby cutting all association with the bird.
    Don't know if that would help or not, but it possibly could harm the bond the hawk has with the owner.
    Also it seems to me that some birds are naturally more vocal than others.
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by davids View Post
    Hi Keith

    Over here in the UK i have heard some people moult their imprint hawk out in seclusion thereby cutting all association with the bird.
    Don't know if that would help or not, but it possibly could harm the bond the hawk has with the owner.
    Also it seems to me that some birds are naturally more vocal than others.
    That sounds more like short term noise abatement than a solution.
    Ron N1WT Vermont

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducksanddogs View Post
    So, they're not really food begging, they're just screaming because they enjoy it? Why, then, are they usually quiet in nature after some maturity, yet continue to catch prey, if both items fire off said reward centers? Obviously one leads to food; but, you're indicating they both have neurologically rewarding outcomes regardless of acquisition of a meal.
    I had a comprehensive reply to this that I submitted several days ago, but it disappeared into the ether. I hope I can recreate it.

    Food begging is tied to screaming. that is the instinctive origin of the behavior. Its a response to strong hunger directed at "summoning" a perceived provider. In a natural environment, the parent birds are the provider. Screaming self extinguishes in nature when the raptor realizes that the provider is no longer showing up. But recently dispersed young hawks and falcons expend a lot of effort trying to summon a provider by screaming in the late summer and early fall. In a falconry scenario, the falconer becomes the provider, and is the target for these instincts. Since the falconer never leaves the hawk's life there is always a target for these behviors to be focused on.

    I was trying to keep from getting overly complicated earlier, and unfortunately I think I caused more than a bit of confusion instead. So I would like to try to step back.

    The text book definition of a self reinforcing behavior might be something like: "Any behavior which the animal feels yields the response it is seeking without any purposeful response from others."

    There are many many examples of self reinforcing behavior, but the classical one usually trotted out in discussions of them is this one:

    A dog perceives a threat from a delivery man, and barks to try to scare the delivery man away. The delivery man drops off whatever they are delivering, and then leaves. From the dogs point of view, the bark worked to get rid of the threat, sot the bark becomes self reinforcing, and the next time the dog perceives a threat like this it will base its behavior on its experience (from its point of view) and will repeat his success by barking.

    A hawk screaming to express hunger becomes self reinforcing also. The "provider" shows up, and the hunger is alleviated after the screaming. So in the hawks mind the screaming worked, and the behavior becomes more firmly entrenched.

    When I spoke of the "rush" I was responding in haste, and being more brief than I should have been. What I was really trying to talk about is the pleasure of success that people and animals feel (animals have been shown to produce endorphins from success in many animal studies where brain chemistry was physically examined) when they think they have achieved their goal. In addition to the food reward from screaming, its a powerful reinforcement mechanism. Just the perception of success is a reward. In hindsight, I caused a lot more confusion with that and wish I had not brought it up.

    Most of the traditional methods to eliminate screaming are some theme of the strategy of decoupling the percepetion in the hawks mind that the falconer who is working with that hawk is the "provider" who should be screamed at (trying to avoid direct food association, having a different falconer raise it, never letting the hawk feel true hunger, etc.) This works quite well. Other similar ideas that work are to frustrate the link between screaming and getting food by spending more time with the hawk. These work too, but not nearly as well (for complex reasons I cant seem to articulate at the moment...) And the very best strategies combine spending time with the hawk and avoiding a link between screaming and getting fed.

    Operant Conditioning methods open up another set of ways to crack the nut. One strategy as has been mentioned is to teach the hawk that silence is what gives the reward instead of squaking. Another is to teach the hawk that screaming is ONLY rewarded in certain exact situations - like the example I gave of my friend who played conductor with the gyrfalcon orchestra.

    Operant Conditioning is not always the best way to go about solving a problem. It really is something of a magic wand that can be applied to any behavior problem, but sometimes its faster and more effective and even easier to use other tricks. There are also many situations where someone using Operant Conditioning can have it backfire on them and train something they didn't intend - and as I said initially, training a raptor to scream on command can easily slip into that category. Its a behavior that is much easier to encourage than eliminate once it gets estabilished.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    First of all, Geoff, I didn't mean to insult you knowledge of OC; The focus of my comments, Geoff, was not on OC; in fact, I never mentioned it. But I guess that is what you were basing your original comments on. I should have realized this fact. Sorry.

    My question was, basically, how do you or anyone know, that these birds get "a rush from screaming?" No one knows if they get a "rush" from anything they do; do they?
    No worries bill. I am not and was not offended.

    In short, chemical analysis done on the brains of several animal test subjects have resulted in similar enough results to realize that the response is universal in higher animals at least.

    When an animal does something that it perceives as the "right" thing it releases endorphins, creates its own high, and feels rewarded.

    But like I said in the response I posted a few minutes ago - it was a mistake to bring this up because its diving deep into an area that is causing more confusion than clarity.

    Geoff, I realize you have a firm believe in OC, and I respect that, but these are categorical statements that are just not entirely true because they are based upon theory, regardless of how much you might believe in it, or have found it successful. You might want to qualify some of your statements with something like, "Based upon my experience, and those of others, it is my firm belief that . . . . ".
    Sadly, there are two scientific meanings of the same word theory and they cause confusion. OC is a very spophisticated branch of reward based training that is based on the currently accepted "laws of learning." In time, those laws of learning might be replaced by theories that better explain the data, but even then they will still be a viable explanation to understand what goes on during learning. They are in effect irrefutable. It dosnt matter if I or anyone else believe in them ore not - just like an apple will fall no matter what I or anyone else will believe.

    Reward based training works on any and all creatures. Operant Conditioning, being a form of reward based training does as well, although to the best of my knowledge OC only works on animals with at least a rudimentary nervous system. But it will work on each and every one. Earthworms and scallops have been trained with OC.

    This is not just my perception or believe. Any animal with a nervous system that includes a way to precieve input from the outside world can be trained with operant conditioning, and that includes any raptor that is not in a brain dead state.

    Beyond that, the only limitations to what can be trained using OC are the imagination of the trainer and will and determination to see it through.

    There are a lot of situations where its more of a project than it is worth to train some behavior, but that dos not equate with this not being possible. And some individual animals may just be more of a project than they are worth to turn around. Again, that has nothing to do with wether or not its possible to do so. That's just an equation of effort on the cost/benefit scale.

    Many years ago, I once had an imprinted immature goshawk that screamed its lungs out at the falconer who imprinted him. But, when I took him home, he never screamed again, not one peep. And I have heard of others that have had this experience. There, obviously, was some psychological compelling reason for him to quit screaming like that, which I would not even guess at, but it certainly wasn't the result of any "conditioning."
    No, this wasn't the result of conditioning. It worked out because this goshawk had a very specific link in its mind to who was the "provider" - and that was the falconer who raised it. This is a great trick, and for what its worth it is a good deal less work than trying to use Operant Conditioning to extinguish screaming. Just because a method works dosnt mean its the easiest way to get something accomplished.

    Somehow I seem to have a knack for getting every goshawk I lay my hands on to think of me as a provider and scream. But I don't mind - I live in the country where my neighbors don't care, and I don't care so long as its not right in my ear.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
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    Geoff,

    Your examples of self rewarding behaviour, I think, areally more superstious behaviour. A behaviour occurs, an event happens, unrelated to the behaviour and a superstious connection is made. I think a better example would be a bored dog paceing in a run. The pacing burns off restless energy and is thus rewarded. Running, for people who get a runners high, is a self reenforceing behaivour. Eating. Things like that
    Jacob L'Etoile
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    In short, chemical analysis done on the brains of several animal test subjects have resulted in similar enough results to realize that the response is universal in higher animals at least.

    When an animal does something that it perceives as the "right" thing it releases endorphins, creates its own high, and feels rewarded.

    But like I said in the response I posted a few minutes ago - it was a mistake to bring this up because its diving deep into an area that is causing more confusion than clarity.

    OMG, Geoff! Give us some references, please. And, it is not that you are causing confusion (we really are not stupid).


    They are in effect irrefutable.

    Geoff, if they are irrefutable, they are not theories, they are facts, which is not the case with OC.

    Reward based training works on any and all creatures. Operant Conditioning, being a form of reward based training does as well, although to the best of my knowledge OC only works on animals with at least a rudimentary nervous system. But it will work on each and every one. Earthworms and scallops have been trained with OC.

    Geoff, again, please give us some references to what you are advocating.

    Quote:
    Many years ago, I once had an imprinted immature goshawk that screamed its lungs out at the falconer who imprinted him. But, when I took him home, he never screamed again, not one peep. And I have heard of others that have had this experience. There, obviously, was some psychological compelling reason for him to quit screaming like that, which I would not even guess at, but it certainly wasn't the result of any "conditioning."
    No, this wasn't the result of conditioning. It worked out because this goshawk had a very specific link in its mind to who was the "provider" - and that was the falconer who raised it. This is a great trick, and for what its worth it is a good deal less work than trying to use Operant Conditioning to extinguish screaming. Just because a method works dosnt mean its the easiest way to get something accomplished.

    Geoff, I can't imagine any easier way--I didn't do anything.

    Somehow I seem to have a knack for getting every goshawk I lay my hands on to think of me as a provider and scream. But I don't mind - I live in the country where my neighbors don't care, and I don't care so long as its not right in my ear.

    Geoff, you should try OC--it works on any animal with a nervous system :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jal4470 View Post
    Geoff,

    Your examples of self rewarding behaviour, I think, areally more superstious behaviour. A behaviour occurs, an event happens, unrelated to the behaviour and a superstious connection is made. I think a better example would be a bored dog paceing in a run. The pacing burns off restless energy and is thus rewarded. Running, for people who get a runners high, is a self reenforceing behaivour. Eating. Things like that
    Good examples, Jacob.

    Bill Boni

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    OMG, Geoff! Give us some references, please. And, it is not that you are causing confusion (we really are not stupid).
    I wasn't inferring that you are stupid. I am the one who is too dim to really articulate what I am trying to get across well.

    They are in effect irrefutable.

    Geoff, if they are irrefutable, they are not theories, they are facts, which is not the case with OC.
    In the commonly accepted sense of the word fact, that would be correct. However, in science there are no "facts". There are data, and interpriations/explanations of those data.

    Geoff, again, please give us some references to what you are advocating.
    Um, with all due respect Bill.... This is a sub-forum of NAFEX DEDICATED to operant conditioning, as I said earlier. You responded to it questioning the very merits of OC, and then you want me to cite research to defend it?? That seems at best a bit off to me. The data is out there, easy to find if you want it. Your an academic, it should be even easier for you to find than most.

    But the easy place to start is "don't shoot the dog" by Karen Pryor. She has a website here that should have some info on it: http://www.clickertraining.com/

    Geoff, I can't imagine any easier way--I didn't do anything.
    Getting the results you want without any effort is as good as it gets!

    Geoff, you should try OC--it works on any animal with a nervous system :-)
    Bill, I think you missed when I said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by goshawkr View Post
    Beyond that, the only limitations to what can be trained using OC are the imagination of the trainer and will and determination to see it through.
    I have enough imagination to see it through - I could write down the recipe for the solution to this behavioral problem on a cocktail napkin (in OC training circles, specific plans for training a specific animal are often casually referred to as recipes.) but the will and determination on the other hand.....

    As I said before, I have fooled around with using OC to stop screaming, and made progress. But then my determination winds down and I find other stuff to do.

    I am actually building a machine right now that will do the training for me. Should have it done in a few weeks. Then I don't need any determination at all.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
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    As this conversation has been progressing, I have been doing a little bit of OC with my current imprint goshawk to shape silence instead of screaming. For the past two years, I have done this with a bit of determination coming out of the molt, make great progress, and then give up as her will to scream overwhelms my will to shape the silence.

    I had my step son shoot some video of one of the sessions. This was just after I had noticed she was not food begging and had given the CR to tag that silence and given her a reward. In this video, she is not screaming, but is excited and anticipating the CR. I am silently waiting for ~5 seconds of absolute silence before I give the CR. At this stage, I give her the reward anyway even though she vocalized after the CR was given.

    https://youtu.be/N08k-30oIwM

    This is also a goshawk that as an eyass I put the screaming on cue. When I call her name, she responds with a food begging scream. This behavior has diminished, and now in her fourth year is almost completely gone. Its a real handy way to track her down in the field, so I do want to work on that some before the silence gets too entrenched.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
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    Interesting discussion with some good tips that I will incorporate. What has worked well for my longwings and a couple of gos for over 45 years is "aversion" training. This works best when done with big downies, but has worked with feathered birds as well. When a bird screams, while being raised on a table top type nest/pan, around the house, I tickle the back of its throat with the soft end of a molted primary. There is no food "reward" for the screaming, just the opposite. This can work with older birds but they should be on the fist. Otherwise, they might bate upon approach. I have yet to have this happen, but I do not want to test them or set them up for a bad habit. I also use the feather (or the old chopstick trick) to stroke a bird in order to get it used to hand movements around the head without putting the feather in its mouth. After having its throat "tickled" a few times over several days, the bird will try to scream with its beak closed - the result is a sort of "bird whimper". When you see that, you know you nearly done. Some birds I have not used this method on have talked more than the others but outgrew the talking after being flown regularly. (And don't worry, they will still preen -haha!). Be slow and gentle. Good luck, Bob





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    Quote Originally Posted by jal4470 View Post
    Geoff,

    Your examples of self rewarding behaviour, I think, areally more superstious behaviour. A behaviour occurs, an event happens, unrelated to the behaviour and a superstious connection is made. I think a better example would be a bored dog paceing in a run. The pacing burns off restless energy and is thus rewarded. Running, for people who get a runners high, is a self reenforceing behaivour. Eating. Things like that
    Jacob,

    I don't think you are incorrect. However, if you view the behaviors I gave as an example from the point of view of the animal - the behaviors achieved the results that were intended. That is currently the standard used by professional animal trainers and I believe it is still also used by most researchers in the field of animal behavior although I am not certain about that.

    The examples you give are definitely better ones for self rewarding, although it would exclude screaming from that definition.

    Maybe, just for the sake of this discussion, we should say that both superstitious and self rewarding behaviors are really tough to crack.
    Geoff Hirschi - "It is better to have lightning in the fist than thunder in the mouth"
    Custom made Tail Saver Perches - http://www.myrthwood.com/TieEmHigh/

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